Crafting Global B2B Brands | B2B Marketing Shepherd Rajesh Kumar | EP 09

Foreign. B2B marketing with Rajesh Kumar. Hey there. Welcome to the decoding B2B marketing show on B2B marketing. Shepherd. I am Rajesh Kumar, your host for this episode. With 30 years of marketing experience at companies like Microsoft, SAP, UiPath, Profetti and Parno, I now help startups as a fractional CMO and as a board advisor. My book by the Same name, decoding B2B marketing drops soon on Amazon. So stay tuned. B2B marketing can feel complex. There is many times not enough clear, practical content that you can use. That is why this show exists. We cut through the noise, break down the complexity, bring you clarity through conversations with some of the best minds in the field. Today I am thrilled to introduce Pravel Singh, VP Marketing and Customer Experience at Zoho, one of India's most beloved global software companies. We are actually getting him on two topics, product marketing and brand building out of India. So please watch both the episodes. Praval also happens to have deep interest in Urdu poetry and we'll talk about it on the show. Today we'll be diving deep into what it takes to build brands out of India for B2B companies. Why it is important, what does it take? How do you do it? And he's the best person to talk about it having built and seen one of the best known brands come out of India. So with that, let's decode together. So welcome back on the show. Pravel, thank you for joining us today. I loved the conversation on product marketing. I'm glad I have you for the conversation on B2B branding, which is something very close to my heart. I moved from consumer to B2B and I sort of felt the absence of that narrative at least those days. And over the years it has changed. One is beginning to hear role of brand in B2B. So I wanted to get your perspective. How do you think about it? What's the role of brand in B2B and why does it matter? Sure. First of all, thank you Rajesh for having me here and talking about something which is very close to my heart. And again, like you said, a lot of founders may not emphasize on building a brand early on, especially in the B2B world because the whole idea is to put food on the table, right? You want some, you have a product, you need some customers, you get the ball rolling. Brand often comes to your mind much later, especially more so if you're a very engineering or R D heavy company, so to say. Right. That's how. And again, that's how it's been at Zoho as well for the longest time. We were very performance heavy, you know, so everything that you said, from events to search campaigns to everything else, intent based marketing, is what all of us were also doing. But one thing that you and I both would agree is over the years, we're competing in a space where there are too many products trying to solve similar, if not exactly the same problem. Right. And of course, there is product differentiation that stays and has a very important role to play. But we also realize that in a space where there are so many tools, software, technology available, something that sits close to people's mind even after they leave work is the brand. And that happens in the consumer world. That happens in the B2B world alike. I've worked with some consumer brands in the past as an agency owner, and I think some of those principles still stick with me, you know, and it's only harder in a B2B space because people don't wake up in the morning on a Friday and think about accounting software. You know, and some of these are very dreadful pieces of tools as well. But what people talk about, a company or a group of people or is, especially when you're not in the room, is what essentially a brand is all about. Right. And at Zoho especially, we've focused a lot in the last five, seven, 10 years on this. More so in the last five years, I would say, where we carved out a separate team, intent initiatives on what is it that we want to be known for? Okay. And it has various traits to it. One is, of course, how we run the business. How is it different from how a lot of other people run the business? Right. The second is what's the cultural fabric that keeps all of it together, the people behind the products? And the third is in a space which is very crowded. How do you differentiate yourself where even if a prospect doesn't buy from you, okay. They remember you so that they may come back. Or if an existing customer is happy, how do you ensure that she refers you to somebody else? She takes your name in a room full of people where you're not there. That, I think, is what the brand creates. And it's super powerful when done right. And I won't argue the fact that you should start with it on day zero, because no matter what I say, it's hard. We all know that when you're building a product in the market, your first set of motion is to get that positioning right, get that your toolkit ready for the sales people and go and do the first sale. And if a product solves a problem and a need and a customer is happy with it, he or she may just end up buying it. And then you get the ball rolling and slowly and gradually you come to a point where you realize that what next? And that's exactly how we've played out as well. And you're right. I mean, if I think, step back and think about it. B2B usually is a much longer term relationship. It's a complex relationship. It usually is not an impulse buy. Once you take it, you keep it for a long time. Right? And it's a product where you derive value over a period of time. So the value of familiarity and trust is high. I mean, so many times people have a conversation even as a fractional CMO here, oh, I'm not getting enough leads if I don't know you and if I don't know what you stand for, just knocking my door again and again is not likely to lead you to business. I mean, early days, you're right. Early days. Founder or the early people in the company have a network. They have people who are supporting them, trusting them. That's how you get early customers. But you see soon reach a stage where they cannot any longer be in every conversation. So then how do you represent yourself in a consistent manner? And that's where the brand comes in. So even if you don't invest heavily early, but just the thought to have even a good quality visual representation, have thought behind how you name yourself, how you present yourself, it's something that you can build on later. Right? Now, having said that, how does one go about developing a brand in B2B? At what stage of the company should one start thinking of branding strategy? What are the different elements under it? Just unpack for us. So as you said, having that thought at the back of your mind about what your brand is about, how do you differentiate it is important. And I think founders often have that. Most founders, when they build something, the idea, the inception itself, they know. I mean, look at the name itself, the name of the company. I don't know a company where no matter what the name is, there's no logic or reason behind it. That reason may be flawed, but there's some thought process that goes behind naming a company. So the founder almost always has something in their minds on what they want to be. Now, how that translates, how that vision, that thought translates into other people, the early team and then beyond that, how does it show in execution is what the entire branding size is all about. Now it could Be something as trivial as your logo and typeface. It could be your voice and tone in communication. It could be how you go to market in ways which is different from other companies. I mean, look at two large companies that do consumer devices, Apple and Samsung, right? We work with both of them very extensively. Both have very different ways of how they want their brand to be perceived, how they want their brand to be represented. Not just brand guideline, but the whole ethos are very different set of ethos. I think all that having in your mind helps. But again, as you said in B2B space, the whole journey is very different. The transaction itself is very different. It's not impulse buy, you know, so oftentimes companies bring that branding as a stream, as a function, as an entity much later in their journeys. We did that same. We had the same experience ourselves at Zoho. But we've realized that it helps you in ways that you can't even imagine, right? I mean, today, just look at five, seven years ago versus now, you know, and it feels so good when I meet a random stranger at an airport or sometimes an airline seat, and the person, whether or not he or she may know me, looks at something Zoho. It could be a seatback ad on an airline or could be a billboard somewhere on the way to the airport. And they would remember it, right? And I've had these chances where they've brought up those things. And it feels good to sort of know that you're associated in some way or the other with that thing. And then you go to an event where you meet a lot of other marketers throughout, fellow marketers in the same industry, and they come and appreciate something that you've done as a brand. They may not even be users of your product, okay? But they saw something that you were able to sit well in their minds. I think that's what kind of makes it worthwhile. It happens with your peers, it happens with customers and partners and pretty much everybody who you remotely connect with. I mean, forget customers, partners in the ecosystem. My parents today, when they see Zoho outside, they feel so much more happier than 13, 14, 15 years ago when they had only heard little about the company. So it helps in many ways. Some of it is not even easy to kind of quantify. And I think that's where brand really helps. It's actually a monetizable asset, right? And it's the, as you said, the thought in founder's mind who you want to be. And once you reach a stage where they can't Be everywhere, creating replicas of them in a consistent manner, who represent the company in the same manner and therefore represents the ethos and the values, which is like a human Persona, right? People do business with people and brand represents that who you are dealing with. And that's why, especially in case of startups, the founder's Persona is so inseparable from the brand Persona. It's the extension really. Right. So another thing I want to ask you. In a lot of companies that I worked for, the company brand or the corporate brand becomes a primary brand and everything under is a product descriptor. So what is. Whereas in consumer actually company brand is way back in the background, it's the products. So how do you think of this in B2B? Because you are in a company which has both. I mean, it's a good thing and also a bad thing, you know. So what happens is we have let's say 55, 60 products today, right now it's just impossible for us to run a billboard for every product outside, you know, because not just financially, it may not make a lot of sense, but even otherwise, how much will you recall? And each product has its own logo. Just imagine that problem, right? If I show you 55 logos, even if I tell you the names of each of these products, you may not remember them. I sometimes find it hard to recall or recollect, you know, if suddenly woken up and asked. So but there's one Zoho logo, there's one primary brand that we have, right? So it helps to have certain assets with the brand logo, you know, and certain things that, that's why you will see certain messaging, certain adverts that we do, we would go with the Zoho messaging, Zoho brand, Zoho logo. Whereas when you're doing, let's say a search campaign which is very intent heavy, you know, someone searching for something and you want to show a relevant product, you would want to bring up that product brand. Because the person may have come across Zoho, but he or she may not know why Zoho relevant for me, take something like an accountant, an accountant sitting In a tier 2 town is looking at an accounting software, let's say migrating from something on prem to something which is mobile friendly, cloud friendly, modern age, good interface. He or she may be looking for that. Now they may have heard of Zoho CRM or Zoho's HR software or Zoho's something else. But they may not have heard of Agar accounting software. Okay, hypothetically, let's assume that so that product branding is also important. How you bring that contextually is what is important. So our programs that we run for accountants is very different from the programs that we do for our, let's say the community of HR professionals or within the HR space as well. We've been curating these Persona based events. We did one with Chros in Bangalore recently called Horizon. We're doing something next month with the talent professionals, people who do talent acquisition. We have a recruitment tool available for that now. That event is branded position for our ATS offering, which is a talent solution offering. So there is a nuance play there based on the target audience, but something which is very generic. You know, if I have to put a billboard outside of, let's say a highway in Gurgaon, it has to be broader Zoho because the kind of people who would see that they could be an HR professional, they could be a cto, they could be head of sales and we have something for everybody, each of these people. So then we go with generic messaging. But respective Persona based messaging and targeting also happens. It's a lot easier in digital world. In physical, you can do it in certain spaces. But certain spaces where it's more broad, we go with the Zoho brand and we try to balance it out in different ways. So did you have this right from the beginning or no? For the longest time you would only see product ads. You know, you would see a payroll ad, you'll see an HR software ad, you will see an accounting or a CRM ad. But over the years we have evolved into this because A, we've matured to have the breadth that we have, B, these products have also gotten the right depth now. So when you are ready to sort of go with a wider net, you can cast a wider net. Then we go as Zoho. Even at events, if it's a, let's say you go to a large CIO event, you know, we often go as Zoho because a CIO may need a solution which could be anything, you know, and then when they speak with us, we understand that and then the conversation gets into the right track. But there talking only about HR software kind of limits us that way. Right. So we play that card. It's like a house of brands. Absolutely. So it's very contextual. But to your question, were we always like that? We were not. We've kind of evolved and learned along the way to be smart about. And it's all about relevance, context. All of us have very short attention span today. So how do you stay contextual, relevant? It's all about that. Where does this whole idea of brand purpose and brand vision fit in? And where else beyond the prospects and customers, you see the brand play a role, different stakeholders, employees, investors, partners. Yeah, so like I said, brand is a very powerful thing for any company. B2B or B2C. And while the straightforward answer is it helps your customers remember you or prospects remember you, it also helps you in other ways. For example, talent, you know, the kind of affinity someone has towards your brand also defines whether he or she wants to work with you or not. As a partner, as an employee, as whatever. Right? So there's, there's, and there's a huge chunk of information and campaigns and whatnot on, on employer branding itself. You know, we don't play that card very heavily for that matter, but I've seen that that employer branding from a talent acquisition perspective is also something that is very, very important. Similarly, when you look at a brand, one of the things that is important to understand is it's not just about a customer choosing your product. Right. It is also about, you may not be a customer of mine, but the impression that you have of my brand will define how you refer us or talk about us in other settings when I'm not there. Okay, that is another second order, third order effect that I think brand really pulls a punch on. It's very, very important trait that we often don't even consider, but it shows. It may not show the first quarter or the first year, but over time it compounds and we've been seeing it from close quarters with just a few campaigns that we've been able to do lately. There's enough and more conversations, getting random emails and messages on LinkedIn and WhatsApp and whatnot about, hey, I saw this somewhere and it reminded me of Zoho. Okay, that's a very good feeling. You know, can I map it to a transaction? Probably not, but I don't even care about it, you know, similarly, when you talk to prospects who want to work with us as talent, you know, and such beautiful emails that come sometimes very, you know, out of the blue, where I really want to work at Zoho, you know, I've seen this and I know someone at Zoho and I've had this experience and I would love to work at Zoho. I mean, it's not, the person didn't even mention a product. The person only mentioned the brand in the company and whatever understanding he or she has had about us. Similarly, when we do these, our Large user conferences called Zoholics. We do it once a year in most big regions. People then when they come, you immediately know that they connect with you. And product is one of the reasons they connect with us, for our people, for our culture, for the stories that they hear about us from us and from other people. I think all of that collectively defines the value of a brand. And we've been seeing it firsthand. So there's no denying that it has clear value prop. And you've done it right from the scratch in your tenure. So how does one go about creating a brand operationally? What are different elements? Unpack for us. What kind of expertise does it take? What do you build in house? What can you outsource should you want to? And you know, and what does it, I mean, what type of digital tools technologies are today available? What kind of human expertise does it take? Sure. So how we've done it at Zoho in the last five years or so, I would say is there's one part of it is which is pure play aesthetics and brand kit and guidelines. Your logo, the usage, how to use it and how not to use it. Your font. We also have our own font, by the way, it's called puvi. We made our own font. And then a font doesn't sit in one way. There's so many variations of that font, how you can use it. So there's complete brand guidelines on how to use the logo and the font. Then there is voice and tone of how when something comes off as a communication from us, how would it sound? Right. All those are hygiene checks. And we had that in place for the longest time. What we built in the last four or five years is a several brand narratives, things that are close to us, that talk about us, but we are not talking enough. I'll give an example. So our team put up this initiative called Humans of Zoho. And we picked up people from within the company who've been with us for 10 plus years. And there are a lot of people that way, by the way. And we started interviewing them, talking to them of what kept them here. Okay. What drives them, what's the passion that they come to work with. And that series now has several interviews already there, written videos, and it became an immediate hit. And a lot of people I meet outside, they remember that initiative. It's a brand initiative which was not done before, but is being done now. And it gets talked about a lot. Similarly, a lot of people appreciate our stance on the way we run the business, which is playing The Long Game, not raising money, playing the long game, being mindful of our customers, privacy, etc. Etc. We're bringing those narratives in an initiative called the Long Game. We talk about building the business our way, you know, the Zoho way. A lot of founders, a lot of people in general, relate with that and they share those stories, they talk about it. So these are narratives we are not talking enough about. Similarly, our initiatives on talent, we see that a thing called Zoho Schools of Learning, wherein we take these fresh school graduates after 10 plus 2 and we train them on a training and then we incubate them, we absorb them within the company. They're some of the brightest kids that I've seen around. And Today more than 10% of our employee strength comes from that stream. Wow. Yes. It's something that we talk about now a lot more than we did earlier. So much so that our user conference, we have a booth for Zoho schools, for people to know they're not selling a product or anything. We're just talking about how we did this and how talent shouldn't be restricted by the education or the college they went to and things like that. Because these are some smartest kids that I've seen and worked with. I have many on my team as well. So these narratives are essentially brand narratives. They existed, but we're not talking enough about them now. We do. So that's one part of it. The first part of it was the hygiene, the logo, the typeface, the voice and tone, etc. The second part is how do you bring those narratives out? The third thing is the brand campaigns where you do a large marketing activity. We did one, six, seven weeks ago called It Takes Time. It was on the. Thank you so much. It was on the storyline of how good things take time. And we use the pillars of culture, architecture and technology, of how the best of cultures, the best of architecture and the best of technology that today we see appreciate. It took a lot of time for them to come through. It doesn't happen overnight. And we often, in this whole race of break things and move fast, we often forget that. So we took that narrative and made a campaign out of it as a beautiful video and then other narratives. It's very unique and so very rooted in India. Even the one before that, it's called it's the Craft or something like that. Yeah. So software is our craft. It's beautiful. Yes. So we have done these over the last 10 years or so, I would say, and we want to do more of these. You know, and I think this is what something that a product marketing team will not drive this. It's beyond their purview of and they're busy with something more centered around the product, that market. This is something where the brand marketing team comes into play. Okay, that's one. The other part of your question is now that has a few pieces. So everything from our brand marketing, which includes our initiatives like Humans of Zoho, as well as our social communication, our media communication, other analyst relations within the country and then our events that we do, all of field marketing, how do we position ourselves? Your earlier question about whether we go as a product or as a brand, all those decisions also sit with the brand team. And I think it's very important and I think we got it right in terms of when we created this team about five, seven years ago. So you mentioned you are about 18,000 or more people. Right. So how do you ensure consistency? Yeah, I mean that's a tough question and no easy answers, to be honest. I won't say we are. We've done it through and through. There are gaps that we identify, but we've kind of identified steps to have the right kind of checks in place. So for example, anything regional, there's a regional marketing team. Think of it as a brand marketing team for that region. They understand the nuance of the region. They have people who have the local context, the cultural context, the language, etc. So when a product is being launched in a region, the regional marketing team chips in and make sure that the communication is localized. Similarly, at the brand level, anything that we're doing pan Zoho, the brand team is always involved so that we make sure that there's some consistency across the board. And these are, I would say these are the fails kind of checks and guardrails. Guardrails. And I would say some bit of, I wouldn't say strict rules that we have, but certain policies, certain systems in place that make sure that what goes out has gone through a few rounds of checks and some additional pair of eyes to sort of see through. And I think it's starting to work now. I think it does take a lot of enablement, guidance, observation to get people to be enabled, but then also believe in representing it in a consistent manner because at some point everybody feels, and I think how it has worked for us is when people start to see that this is working, you've cracked it, it's helping, then the friction goes away. They want to collaborate with these teams and I think that's what we have seen and it's working for us. So you're relatively young brand. Have you done changes along the way to keep it contemporary yet or. Right now this, you know, is still staying true to what it was? Well, we changed our logo a couple of years ago for the first time and again it was done very organically, very in house, didn't hire a external agency or a consultant or an advisor. It was very homegrown. And I would say it was not a logo change, it was more of a evolution of the old logo that we had. I mean, people evolve brands. It was just that I find new logo very contemporary, very light. So we wanted to keep it airy. Exactly. We want to keep it light and airy and modern, yet have the elements of what we had. Like the cubes, the four cubes, the four colors they stayed, could be anywhere in the world. Exactly. So things like that we've done, but nothing massive, I would say, in terms of identity change. Tell me, what are the B2B brands, you know, that you've seen, India, globally that you admire and what is it that you think they have done well, that other companies can learn from? I think some of the good work that I've seen are from a lot of startups. And again, they're lean, single product companies. So very different ball game for them to play, you know, And I've seen, you know, them come forward and do things in interesting ways. I mean, I remember several years ago a company like Intercom, you know, their communication was great. And a company like mailchimp back in the day. Right. And we used to admire what they were able to create. You know, everything from a chimp which was their mascot to everything else. Single product company, much agile way of. They did the whole HubSpot rehash. Yes, HubSpot as well. Right. So we've seen those cycles of that happen. But now what has happened in the last, I would say is the dust has settled a lot. The kind of companies that I would say, I look at how they operate, how they kind of is companies like Microsoft as well, we compete with them, we also partner with them because they offer certain products where we compete, but we offer a lot else where we integrate, we collaborate. They are partners, same as Apple as well. I mean, Apple is kind of pushing the envelope on the B2B side of it and we're working closely together on a lot of initiatives as we speak. Same for Samsung. So these are brands that have their own identity and they're well differentiated, you know, a lot to learn from them. I Would say, because as we grow upmarket, as we become a brand that we want large enterprises to relate with, there is certain element which is very inherent to us, who we are, how we operate, how things like staying private, things like valuing privacy of a company, of a customer, etc. That is intrinsic to us. But what do we mean to people outside is something which is, you know, a lot to learn from, from. And not just B2B, the biggest of consumer brands, you know, brands like Ikea, you know, brands like Trader Joe's. Today, by the way, they are opening the new store. Yeah, I saw that. I saw. I got an invite actually from them to, to visit the store, the first one in Delhi. But yeah, so there's a lot to learn from them as well that, that, you know. No, it works. I mean, one of my very memorable experiences, my. One of the companies I bought, UiPath, I joined them and they were very early, you know, that got their first funding. And after three years or so, our sales leader came and said, you know, what a huge difference. Three years ago when I went, I had to explain who I am and it was very hard to get a meeting. And today when I send a card or I say where I am from, invariably I get a meeting with the cxo. You know, even if they don't fully understand why exactly I'm here, they will give me a hearing. I mean, that's what a powerful brand does for you. Also. And I would like to emphasize on this, right? I mean, all that powerful brand story that you're talking about, a logo chain doesn't do that. You know, a good message doesn't do that. You know, it's more intrinsic, it's more under the, under a few layers of. And today I meet a lot of people and when they get to see, get to know I'm from Zoho, you know, I've seen the expression, you know, the way their eyes lit up, right? Because not because the logo changed, not because we had a cool campaign, you know, it's because they understand who we are as a company. It's more intrinsic, you know, and I think that takes time to build. I think brand is truly a summation of what you represent, what you believe in and what you live. Just the logo is cosmetic, but other side is that the logo and your messaging must represent who you are because if you are not doing a good job of representing yourself well, then you're shortchanging yourself. That's what I worry happens in a lot of cases because you're great but beyond you, nobody knows. I mean, one of the companies I spoke to, when I spoke to the founder, I was super flawed with what he told me. But when I went and looked at the website and everywhere else, there wasn't an Iot of that. So you are actually taking away from your own success. Right. So brand, you're right. I mean you especially in the transparent world of today, you cannot tell people who you are. Not people will see through it. But if you are doing something great, then the world must know as well. Absolutely. It has to go together. I mean, one is who you are. So brand has to be lived. Absolutely. So when you live that story, that's intrinsic, but how you tell that story is equally important, which is where the other elements come into play. So I don't ever undermine the value of, I mean insincerity, no, but sincerity to the purpose and representing that and every nuance of your color choice to font, to logo, to how you represent goes a long, long way in actually, you know, bringing out who you really are and therefore powering your success. In fact, one other thing that came up in a conversation with some friends of mine in some of the CMO meetups or whatever was I was part of was a campaign that we could pull off. It's not necessary that a competition can pull off the very same campaign. It has to be lived, like you said, it has to be very close to you. So when we played that, it takes time, video and time. The first few comments I had was this is so Zoho. And the moment I heard that, I knew we got it right. Because it has to be your story. Right. It has to come from. You cannot try to be someone you're not. Okay. And hiring the best of agencies and best of creative people, the best of budgets doesn't crack that field. That plus six is you won't do it. Absolutely right, Absolutely. So people have to people know a true or authenticity from fake. Absolutely. You may look the most fancy creative, but you say but it's not. Are you really. Do you really mean it? Yeah. Are you really going to do that? We'll watch out for you versus say oh, I saw you. So I think there is a alignment of purpose ethos. So my last question to you is what will be your top three or four takeaways or go dos for companies building products out of India for the world and in general for B2B marketers wanting to make a career in brand domain. Okay. I think for startups, for young teams and founder led this thing, a brand is often early on very close to the founder herself or himself. And I believe in the founder brand. Some people don't strongly believe in the founder brand. Absolutely. It's the strongest brand because company is their extension. Absolutely. And again, that doesn't mean the founder necessarily would enjoy being a spokesperson. Most cases they don't. Not everybody does that. Right. If he or she does, then as a marketer, your life gets easier. You already have a champion spokesperson. If that's the case, leverage that, work with your founder to get those narratives, get those stories out. Okay? And your job is to hunt for opportunities both on the media side and other marketing initiatives, media campaign or whatever, that's number one. If your founder is camera shy or prefers to be, you know, private or prefers to just focus and do his or her work. And then you have to find a spokesperson, a who's senior enough who is, if not the founder at least has skin in the game and is senior enough to be able to hold that baton for you. You know, if you are a fresh out of college young marketer, it's going to be hard for you to do it yourself. Just be honest about it. Right? So that's one. The other part of it is identifying those cultural traits, operational traits of how you run the business. If that's unique or how you hire, that's. You have to find what are the unique stories that you as a company, as a brand have, have. It could be around how you hire, it could be around how you train. It could be about something that, let's say, privacy. It could be you being bootstrapped. There could be n number of ways in and the marketer or the employee in that company knows best. Bring those narratives out both from people who are the early members of the company, because they will come and tell the true story. Secondly, from your customers. You know, get your early customers to talk about you. Why they chose you and why they stuck with you is something that you know is all about when it comes together, comes together as a brand. Because a marketing manager can be on the mic and talk all day about her brand, but who cares, right? I mean, I'm a marketing guy and a lot of journalists today still hesitate to talk to me because the understanding he's a marketer for the company, he's going to say good things, which is true. Okay. I mean, I would love to be candid, which I usually am. But when you talk to a journalist, he or she knows that, oh, you're a marketing guy, this is not going to work out that way. Which is fine. I respect that decision. But to get the people, get the people who build the product, for that matter, get the engineer, get your R and D head to talk. If not, they can't talk, let them ask them to just transcribe something, write, type, take voice notes, and you do the job of dressing it up, packaging it up. I think those are things that are important even in a startup, you know, so the. You know, and then figuring out ways where you get authentic stories that are unique to you, tell the world through media, through marketing, through other channels, and tell it beautifully. Some companies are doing it. I see. One example that comes to my mind right now is again, I don't know the founders directly. I have a company called Plum in the insurance space. It's a startup. They're doing a wonderful job of telling their story. Some beautiful campaigns. I've seen young bunch of marketing folks there. Very inspiring. You know, I've seen, we've seen examples in the US and elsewhere, but in India, it's happening already. You know, another company that comes to my mind, they've done is company called Raise the Bar. You know, they have Praveen and team. They're building a financial product and tool. Dhan, Very original story, very genuine, no drama, you know, and when it connects, it connects. You know that look at Zerodha Nitin and team. They're done a wonderful job of building that business the way they have and what efficiency. So these stories come out, you know, and stories exist everywhere. You know, I mean, like I said, there are too many stories, too few storytellers. Genuine storytellers. Right. If you get those stories out, I think it starts to sort of stick on the wall. And I think it's the craft of the marketer to make sure they come out, they come out well, they come out consistently and they reach through the right audience. So I encourage people to sort of go ahead, find those cues, those. Because only an employee knows that and don't outsource that job. You can work with an agency to sort of amplify that, make that craft better, all of that. But the story has to come from within. You know, it's always inside out. So, yeah, I think it's a very interesting space to be in. And anybody who's signing up for it, I mean, I wish them luck. Thank you so much. My pleasure. Thank you. This was brilliant talking to you and I love the conversation. Likewise. Thank you so much, Rajesh. Thank you. That was a super insightful conversation. Listening to Praval on building strong B2B brands out of India. What does it take? Why do they matter? Was a real enlightenment for me. I hope it was for you too. If something he said sparked an idea in your mind, I'd love to hear about it. Hit me up on social media or drop a comment wherever you are listening. 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