Rules of Branding in B2B | Pritish Asthana | B2B Marketing Shepherd Rajesh Kumar | EP 05

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Decoding B2B marketing with Rajesh Kumar.

Speaker A: Hey there. Welcome to this new episode of decoding B2B marketing on B2B marketing. Shepherd, I'm Rajesh Kumar and I'm so excited to have you tune in. B2B is where I landed up by serendipity and then made a career for over two decades across companies like Microsoft, SAP, HCL and UiPath. B2B marketing can feel complex and not enough straight talk. That is why we are here to help you get clarity, build strong brands and marketing that works. I've been working also on a book by the same title that comes out soon on Amazon. Stay tuned. Every week I will sit down with the best and the brightest in B2B marketing and decode what is real, what is not and what you can take action on right now. And that will include all things AI. How it is changing every aspect of B2B marketing. Today I am kicking off this conversation with a super cool marketer, Preeti Shasthana, VP Marketing at Lentra. The experience of working at companies like GE Capital, IBM, Microsoft, Oracle and PwC has endowed him with an unmatched combination of a rebel creative streak and data driven marketing. We will dive into why building a strong brand is the key to sustained B2B marketing effectiveness and more importantly, how to do it. Ready? Let's decode together. So, Pradesh, welcome. Thank you for joining us today. I'm very curious to know what got you into B2B marketing. What keeps you here, highs and lows. And would you do it all over again if you had a choice?

Speaker B: Okay, so first of all, thank you so much Rajesh for inviting and having me here for this conversation. I'm equally excited. Of course. Uh, I think there were plenty of questions that you've put in there, but does it excite me? Yes, it excites me every single day. And I am, you know, in my entire journey that I have spent as, ah, in my career, I think it excites me even more with the fact that I have now become, or at least landed to become a brand marketeer or a marketeer, uh, as I think it allows me to be constantly innovative with my thoughts, with my uh, various aspects of how do I excite people and keep pulling them in terms of, from what we do. So I think that's the key for me in terms of what drives me and uh, your second aspect in terms of how and what got me into this is, you know, it, it actually I never started as a marketer. I was, I was in Business. I mean, I was across various roles that I have done, but I think the passion for creativity is something that led me towards becoming a marketeer. And though late, but I think I'm glad that, like I was just mentioning, I'm glad that I am in now this role or in this function per se, to be able to drive what I love doing and, uh, produce results as a part of it.

Speaker A: What drives you as a person? I know you have many interesting sides to you. You are an avid rider. I was amazed you rode all the way from, uh, Pune to Delhi and Indore and way back along with family. And your wife is equally a good driver. Uh, you're a cook, you're an artist, you're a photographer. So tell us what keeps you going? And I guess that adds to your rebel creative streak.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I think both, uh, the passion for driving, riding, uh, cooking as well as photography has been there from the very onset. I think, uh, it's almost about. I remember my father, of course, being, uh, a photographer, and I think that's where it came in from. Uh, not too much of a driver or rider, but I think that's where the passion came in terms of. So across each, if I look at it and if I reflect on that, Rajesh is all of them have one thing in common. It has helped me to learn how to become, uh, or how to focus. Right. Whether you are driving, you're focused on the road, you have a destination, but you find your various routes to get to your destination. But whether you are a photographer, right. You find the right. You're patient, you're focused in terms of finding that right frame, the right time to be able to capture that. And of course cooking, because you have. Or. I love to eat, I love to create. So that also brings out the creativity. So I think these have been passions that I have all three different areas. But I think it has helped me to groom in learning and be patient, be focused, be able to, uh, create. Right. And that also reflects in terms of what I bring on in my professional environment as well.

Speaker A: You know, what you told and said just now seemed to rhyme so well with, you know, many moons ago I read Zen of the Art of Motorcycle maintenance and then been following Anthony Bourdain on, uh, cooking, and I follow Sean Tuck for photography. So all seem to reflect, you know, similar perspectives.

Speaker B: And you yourself are a phenomenal cook as well as a creator. Right. I mean, both in terms of food as well as. I mean, mixology is something that. And. And I, I mean, I follow Your handle. Right, uh, Beacon. Uh, Chef.

Speaker A: Sorry.

Speaker B: Uh, I mean I just may have not. But I think your. You yourself are such an amazing creator of, and an art, uh, artist of creating the art of food and, and drinks and.

Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you. I think that's why we are all in marketing and for our audience and viewers, you know, it's a great place to be. As much as, you know, you think about marketing, there is a lot of creativity, there's a lot of exciting, you know, cohorts and people you get to work with when you're in B2B marketing. So pri. Changing tax. Coming to what we our topic of the today, uh, let's start from the very beginning. What is a brand in your mind?

Speaker B: Okay, so my definition of brand per se, uh, and my thought on brand is brand primarily is a result of the promise. A company, a founder, uh, an organization that makes to the customers its partners, its people. Right. It is not just about the colors or the logo or the font. Right. It's how people, it's how your customers perceive or build that perception about you, uh, and the promise you continue to deliver to them. I think that is what the brand is and the beauty about this brand is then it not only is a marketing aspect, it is everyone's aspect in the organization, whether it is sales and marketing, whether it is corporate strategy, whether it is the founder himself or whether it is HR or sales marketing. So, so all of them come together to drive that promise to be able to create that result in your customer's partner's mind, which then helps in building that trust. And as you continue to build more and more trust, your brand of course becomes bigger and more established. I think that's what I look at brand as and the definition of brand. And that's how I continue to look, drive. And then you of course have various pillars in terms of how you do that. Right. So that is what brand to me is.

Speaker A: See, we've always heard so much more about brand in the B2C context. Right. So how do you think about a brand in the B2B context? Is it any different? Is it as important?

Speaker B: Uh, it is very, very important. I think, you know, know in today's digital world at least you have the ability to reach out to and connect. Right. With, with your audience and uh, brand or two organization people connect. It's or connection happens at a, at a person, person level. Right. And it's personalized and I think everyone talks about it, uh, time in and again. And once you're able to establish People or the connect as a person to another person. Right. I think that's where uh, today it becomes even better. Or it's important for brand marketers or B2B marketers to be able to do that. Uh, erstwhile if you look at it, of course B2C had various uh, this thing, whether it is going out on uh, newspaper, uh, or radio. And a lot of it used to, but not that B2B did not advertise then. So then vis a vis today, I think a lot more focus happens and you are able to do a better connection because of the various digital spectrum and platforms. You have to connect with your audience.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I agree. Uh, I think the perception was possibly led by the fact that the consumer brands are closer to our day to day life and having a mass audience, they use the mass media of yours, which is print and television and radio commercials and so on, so forth.

Speaker B: See, B2C also is an individual decision. A, B2B is many people in the organizations. It's a collective decision. Right.

Speaker A: I mean B2B is at the end of the day a more focused audience and therefore if you used mass media it became a lot of spillage. Right. But now in the era of digital, uh, you can actually very specifically choose and reach out to people with messages, advertising and so on, so forth. I think that has sort of liberated and brought that in the forefront. Um, and I definitely feel that brand in B2B is absolutely important, maybe even more important than B2C because like you said, B2B is a complex decision, involves many, many stakeholders. It's usually a larger outlay and it's not an impulse decision and it's not an impulse consumption. I mean if you think of ERP software or you think of a piece of machinery you're buying for your factory or any services that you are buying, logistics, services, usually they are for a really long time. It takes time to decide buy them, it takes time to deploy them, implement them, it takes time to get value out of them. And once it's running, there uh, is little incentive to change. When people make complex decisions, they make those decisions based on trust. And that came up in all of our other episodes as well.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And trust gets established by what others say about you than what you say about yourself. Absolutely. And if I translate this into the scenario of Indian SAS players.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: Right. Typically a great innovation comes together. A person or few people come together, create a great innovation by power of innovation and their personal credibility. They get initial customers in and once they reach A critical mass, then their ability to reach everyone goes down. So it is when if there is a structured process for encapsulating MHM and nurturing and messaging it as a brand, then the same values and same promise can be communicated to much larger set of prospects, therefore enlarging and growing the market for them. And that is the point at which many of them get stationary because they cannot scale beyond a point. And even in organizations with the passage of time, people change, decision makers change. So every time there is a new exercise. But the brand has that, that property of communicating a sense of you as a company, a sense of your value proposition, a sense of your Persona in one go. Similarly for I've seen larger global corporations come to India and I think maybe two decades ago India wasn't a large enough market so they thought of India only as another place to sell. But I think that has changed. India is now mostly in top two markets in apj.

Speaker B: For as a matter of fact if you look at it and if you see and you're right, two decades ago India was always considered a subsidiary of the APJ market. As a matter of fact today a lot of the technology companies have made India as an independent market away from apj. And APJ is a different market, India is a different market because India has seen that growth and today India is on the next path with in terms of how we become the next trillion dollar economy.

Speaker A: Also I think over last maybe 10 or 15 years India has grown digitally way ahead of many of the mature markets, digital stack, mobile, Internet and so on, so forth. So India's importance has grown and therefore companies have started investing to localize their brand for India. And we see examples with say Salesforce using Rahul Dravid and so on and so forth. Similarly I think Indian companies that earlier started with the idea of being low cost providers or cost arbitrage are no longer satisfied with that. We are going up the value chain. Our own costs have gone up. Therefore we need a brand to tell our story to the world. I think India has come of age. India itself has larger role to play on the world stage. So if you see, you know many of our brands like tcs, brands like Infosys are ah, well known and many of these startups are making their mark as well. Right? So tell me what is the process of brand creation? What all does it involve unpack for us, you know, so that everyone understands this whole mystery behind, you know, how do you get capture hearts and minds of your customers.

Speaker B: So Rajesh, as I was mentioning or As I had mentioned earlier, brand primarily is the result of the promise you make, right? And I think it all starts with the fundamental question of why and with from that why. Once you are able to start defining in terms of what promise you are creating for your customers, whether it is for your customers, partners, people, which is including your employee, I think that is the fundamental core or becomes the nucleus in terms of where and how a brand will evolve, right? And from there of course you start further drilling down in terms of your customer context, in terms of your uh, internal external communication and all those aspects put together will start forming what your brand will promise to your customers basis which a result gets created and the perception and then further on the trust it will build. I think that's the first fundamental. So any founder, any business owner, any entrepreneur, uh, should spend some time and I think I did see in one of your episodes as well where you know, this is a short term and a long term marketing per se. And branding is, you could have both short term as well as long term. But branding of course over a period or branding is definitely a long term aspect. Every founder should invest in, in or as a part of their vision, right? And be patient in terms of creating that brand because that is what will bring them to the next level and every level further on as they keep pushing. Because every business or every journey, let's say put it this way, there is a growth, there is a plateau, then there's the next phase of growth, then there's a plateau, then there's the next phase, right? We've all seen it in various aspects and businesses also go through that. I think it is the brand that helps them or brand that is help in terms of taking from a plateau to the next level. Um, is what I believe in, is what we should continue to invest on, uh, uh, and move with that.

Speaker A: So unpack for us. You know, you've been a part of brand creation and brand refresh at your current organization. Unpack for us. How does one go about it?

Speaker B: Okay, so I think the first and the first aspect of the or the approach was getting to sit with the leadership, with the founder to understand what their story is. Okay. What is their aim, what is their goal? Because for any organization the founders are the best storytellers. Okay. One needs to get into their minds to understand how is it that they tell the story and capture as much as you can in terms of that story and see how then you as a marketer, as a, uh, you know, a creative person are able to take all that and create it as a part of the narrative that you would want to take out there. I think that is the first and foremost step one should look at. Once you've done that, then you work with professionals like yourselves to sit on that strategy and create the various strategies. Because brand of course is something that requires a lot of investment. But you can also be cognizant in terms of how and to what value you want to create that right there. Could you, you could create that with uh, you know, with midterm, short term, long term. So once you understand the aim, the goal. Right. I think in branding one of the first and foremost or key essential aspect is the visual design and working with professionals, agencies and having that clarity as to what your next steps in terms of short, mid and long term are. You start working in creating that content or you create all the visual aspects of it. I think especially for branding, visual plays a very, very important role because what you see is what you believe. Right. And I think that's also something that strikes first before people start to listen to the narrative or the stories and so on and so forth. So having a strong visual makes a huge impact. And uh, I think founders should look at actually working with such set of professionals to be able to create um, aesthetically very, very strong visuals, uh, which defines or gets defined under brand guidelines in terms of the font they will use, in terms of the colors and so on and so forth. I think that is important area.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean you're right because I think of brands as people, uh, somebody, someone we relate to and when we meet someone, say to do business, the first impression we have is visual. In a group of people who do we want to meet and we form very quick impressions. And so is true the brand the first time you look at a logo of the company or the colors of the company or the font of the company, there are lots of impressions you form and that's how you think of them. Whether you think of them as a small time but maybe brilliant operator or you think of them as somebody you can bet your business on. Um, classical example for the fintech company that we were speaking about right now, it is actually banks and does like Lenta does business with banks. So it is not so much looking like a uh, startup, it is more like a reliable industry partner that you can trust to simplify technology for you, that's a very different visual metaphor versus um, being seen as a cool new startup because that may not necessarily inspire confidence and long term trust.

Speaker B: Correct. So you're right. I mean One of the reasons that we looked at, and as you were asking, one of the reasons why we invested in terms of our time, effort, uh, with the founder to be able to do that brand refresh was to create that impression.

Speaker A: So I think like people you do business with, brands also have the same thing. And this is a skill which is potentially different from communication design. So therefore, not always in the area of advertising age agencies, there are specialized professionals in design field who will translate your vision and your promise into a visual metaphor, which is what then powers your identity. And then part of that becomes your logo, your colors, your font, how you represent your imagery and so on, so forth. There are so many different elements under it, but they together, when followed consistently create that perception in people's mind. Right now, once they notice you, then what, how do you tell your story? So seeing your narrative, almost like elevator pitch or describing yourself as a business and your promise succinctly and consistently over a period of time creates that understanding and appreciation for who you are. I think those are sort of two clear elements with which people start. When done consistently through channels and mediums that they frequent, they start making an impression. And again, channels are important. If you are reaching senior decision makers, then you need appropriate channels, not only because they go there, but the quality of the channel rubs on to how they see you. I mean, if you are going to be at a business club, right, that creates a different perception. Or you're going to be in a CEO magazine or a strategic, um, thought leadership magazine like HBR or you know, uh, Wall Street Journal or Financial Times, that create a perception, you know, because that's how people see you. And then the second level I always see is how do you get into their consideration set, which is about then building your content and narrative and, you know, so on, so forth, to show somebody who understands their reality, whether it's industry or horizontal and so on so forth, and can be their partner. And once you are, they know you, you are in their consideration set, then when they buy, you're going to get invited and that's where your, you know, rest of the demand or revenue marketing in that sense starts. True, true. Right. So tell me, what are the global and Indian B2B brands that you admire and what do you see they have done that stands out and others can follow.

Speaker B: So, uh, globally, I think there are plenty that one can refer to, right? I mean, especially in the technology space, if you have Microsoft, Oracle, some of them that you and I have both worked with, I think we see how they, uh, you Know how over a period of time the brand or you know is something that you obviously are proud of. You proud of working with air, you're proud in terms of. It also helps to create the pull factor when you're engaging with customers. The trust factor itself is there. And as you just mentioned, you know, you're always there in that buying consideration. I mean take, take for example everyone talks about uh, let's consider Microsoft. It's not about Office or a Windows or a SQL Server or so on and so forth. It's Microsoft. So that is from a global perspective. I think one of the Indian organizations I can definitely think of is also Tata. I think over a period of time and that is reflective across Tata's entire stream. Whether it is Tata Communications, whether it is Tata Motors. I think the value and um, that they demonstrate and they have created that perception with their buyers or their customers whether, and they come in both, whether B2B or B2C. Right. It's the trust that they have created. So Tata of course is somebody that I follow. I look at, I look up to. And they have. Even being such a large organization, you can see across that everyone lives that and upholds that brand and the value of it.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think two of the Indian brands I saw latest Kantar brand study are now in top hundred which is ah, Tata company TCS and Infosys. Right. But we want to see more and more of the Indian uh, you know, brands, uh, brands there. But talk to me about some brands which are not necessarily software even globally which are strong B2B brands. Many are corporate identities sometimes across because they have consumer businesses also. So um, any advertising, that brand logo that stayed with you, I think I'll

Speaker B: take, I, I think I'll take an example. And this happened when I was, I was running my own agency but I happened to work with Caterpillar. Right. And um, what I see and I, what I. Rather what I saw was uh, how Caterpillar continues to function even at the ground level of it. Right. So if the operator has to, you know, the operator comes first which means his safety comes first. So he has to have all the gear to be able to. And wear that gear before he operates. So we were doing an ad film for them and create rather a brand film for them which was to serve or across India and the Indian market. You uh, would understand most of your operate, most of your buyers of Caterpillar machinery are uh, people uh, who are in road construction or civil work and so on and so forth. So for them it Was of course language was one aspect of it. But this brand firm, they made sure that even the operator is living the value as what Caterpillar drives. Safety comes first for the operator. They are the most reliable brand when it comes to getting the job done. So those aspects and those values even gets reflected. So outside this, it's how companies drive that entire communication right. Through various aspects, whether it's visual, whether it's through people, whether it is demonstrating, through videos and so on and so forth. I think that's what comes across and you have to be consistent to drive that message.

Speaker A: Some of the cool brands we've seen, I think some few years ago, brilliant, uh, communication by Volvo trucks. Right. And then some very good work always consistently by GE as an organization has had very strong corporate branding element that has powered many, many of you know, uh, their businesses. And I'm also curious, you know, uh, when you have limited resources, how do you communicate your brand after you've done the work, you've done the design, you've created your brand guidelines, brand book, you know, everything, how do you communicate it? What tactics do you use to get a share of customers mind?

Speaker B: I think uh, you know, that's something that you, if you are clear in terms of where your customer is, who your customer is, um, today with the digital world that we of course or the M platform that we continue to use, you're able to identify target that. Right. And branding or communication as a part of your branding, the voice and everything, you're able to of course target and land your message in a much more effective and a personalized way where people then become a part of your uh, buying or you know, your customers buying cycle consideration. I think that is what is important.

Speaker A: Yeah, we've seen some very nice examples of you know, TCs espousing the cause of marathons. The sponsorship has done very well for them. HCL association with the Ferrari uh, team has done very well because those sort of things, they focused and concentrated their resources in one area and that has built a property for them in a very long term sustained effort which has resulted in strong awareness.

Speaker B: Yes. Brands eventually find one area to focus on, to find that whether it is philanthropic, whether it is sports, whether it is education. Right. Ah. And use that to create a property where people then start relating because at the end of the day it's people. Right. So as, as long as you're able to also demonstrate, communicate and engage using such mediums, it helps brands to elevate their position.

Speaker A: Okay. And uh, so what digital tools and technologies you know, do you use in the area of you know, brand?

Speaker B: I think a lot of creative tools that are available or have been available. Um, whether it's Adobe and today, I mean there are plethora of them, right? Whether it is for video creation, whether it is static like visuals on Canva and so on and so forth. And most important the new uh, you know, the young marketers who come with already, you know they, they, they are born in this new age, right? So for them with various tools that they continue to explore uh, on their social or their mobile or their web, I think those are aspects they bring in all these various knowledge of new tools that are available which are already pre built with AI. Ah, or are getting there and help to you know, uh, make the workflow better. In organizations your productivity is much faster. So today if you are working, if you have a team of young marketers, you basically tell them this is what we are out there, this is the objective. And they figure it out. They know the tools that are to work upon. Of course the traditionally like I mentioned, your tools like Adobe, uh, and all are already available especially in the creative side of it. And they today are also now enhancing and building and getting a lot of AI aspects. So that is helping out uh, teams to become more efficient, faster uh, and uh, uh, produce results.

Speaker A: Any specific use cases of AI that you have tested yourself or you are seeing coming up or you see will be, see useful in immediate.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean look at, look at ChatGPT, okay. Today it's a disposal on everyone's uh, hand right? You no longer are relying uh, on your content or your copywriter. You may have the first construct that comes out of your copywriter. But if you are also part of that where you're then taking the next to the next level, you yourself can quickly use ChatGPT. You know what your objective is, do the tweak and produce the result. So it's not about keep going back, back and forth, back and forth like traditionally it used to have.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Uh, I mean it used to be like you work with the agency, first draft comes in, second draft comes in, you go back, you're giving the listing, it no longer is required. I think some of these tools which are available at hand, you've just got to pick up and start working and becoming, making yourself better as well with it. So you're, you're, you're having tools at your disposal to work better and more efficient.

Speaker A: Uh, what will be your advice for people aspiring to make a career in B2B in the brand area, I think

Speaker B: whether it is brand or other parts of marketing important um, aspect is to understand the business. That's the first aspect. I would say you should understand what business you are in or what the organization is in. Right? If you're able to understand that you know then then you're able to fix or you're able to fetch as well as determine how you want to market and what is the narrative you want to say or what is how you want to help to build that brand. Remember uh, you are one pillar to your founder, to the uh, owner, to the entrepreneur, to, to help elevate and build. Right? Because brand is, you do a brand building. So you're an important aspect and to be able to understand the business is what will start reflecting in terms of the various activities you will plan. Whether it is from visual defining, whether it is from content, whether it is also to then continue to serve all that content to your customers.

Speaker A: How do you hire for roles in brand marketing? What kind of skills and competencies do you look for beyond understanding a business?

Speaker B: I think uh, if you know that what you are and where you are, uh, at what stage of uh, you are. So for example if I'm a startup or I'm working in a startup completely, I uh, look at uh, young minds that have won the drive. Second is across whether it is creating visuals, so you have visual storytellers, you have graphic designers, then you have content writers and uh, I think somebody who also understands the third area is in terms of your digital uh, overall whether it is how do you land uh all these content that you create digitally across the various web and social. I think these are three critical areas to start off with and you build your team around that so that you constantly serve uh, and are able to continue to serve that content, to continue to engage with customers.

Speaker A: How do you measure success of investment in brand?

Speaker B: I think measurement of the brand uh comes over time with uh, how your customers are engaging with you, how many times you get in the consideration cycle and what is the trust now, whether it is a new customer that you are trying to acquire, whether it is your existing customer, what is and how is it that you are obviously engaged and how many times does the customer engage with you is honestly the true measurement in terms of how your brand is doing and the perception and the trust that you built? Uh, of course there are various measures which are available or which people put in a corporate strategy if I may say. But I think that's the true measurement in terms of how your customer's trust is growing.

Speaker A: Well. Thank you. That was a great way to decode branding in B2B marketing. Big thanks to you for sharing so many insights and helping share your experience in this area. If you found this helpful, we'd love you to hit a follow or leave a quick review on any of the channels that we are on, whether video or audio, and share this episode with someone in your network who cares about better B2B marketing. That way we can keep bringing you exciting content every single week. If you got a topic or question you want us to take on, reach out to me on LinkedIn or put a comment in any of the review sections. We would genuinely love to hear from you and take up the topics you want us to. So thank you again for listening and viewing. And remember, don't follow the herd. Lead it. You are the shepherd. See you next time.