Episode 221: High velocity, low spark? Karen Cooper on saving creativity from AI overload

Speaker A: Hello everyone. Welcome Back to the B2B Marketing Podcast. My name is David Rowlands. I'm the head of product at B2B Marketing and Propolis and I'm joined today by Karen Cooper, who is Director of Marketing Content Experience at Wolters Kluer Health. Karen is a strategic content leader and researcher, ah, dedicated to helping professionals rise with intention and with over 25 years of shaping global content ecosystems. She knows exactly how to transform complex ideas into stories that resonate and which drive action. Karen is also one of our speakers at this year's B2B Ignite, which is the conference for B2B marketers taking place on 1 July in London and designed to help you see what's new in B2B marketing, what's working, what isn't and how the best teams are standing out from the crowd. So without further ado, Karen, welcome to the B2B Marketing Podcast. How are you doing today?

Speaker B: I'm doing well. Thank you for having me on.

Speaker A: No problem, anytime. Um, and can you just sort of uh, you know, give us a bit of a, an overview of your background? I mean I know I've just sort of covered it a bit but I'd love to hear it in your own words, um, you know, understanding a bit about your experience in B2B and really what you've learned along the way.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. So I actually started in. I um, have a journalism degree so I started in journalism um and kind of at the advent of uh, print going away a little bit and digital coming into more of the forefront and um, I really kind of latched on to um you know, E comm and website and the, the growth and um, reach of a digital um atmosphere. And so I moved into advertising uh, and working um, from a content perspective, perspective within uh, advertising. And then I got a great opportunity along the way to just dig into um, UX a little bit, uh, also um, SEO and just really expanding my um, my depth of knowledge and experience. Uh, and then I decided I was working on at an ad agency and it was a small, smaller um agency M and I really was interested in like the practice management side of it. So looking at what our actual um, teams are doing. So creative teams, design teams and um, working with them on um, hours and traffic, um trafficking projects and things like that. So sort of split it between content strategy and then digging into more of the business behind the business. Uh, so that's sort of where I got into um, kind of my trajectory that we're at um now and I really Love um, the, the position I was in, uh, we were bought out by a larger company. I had a great opportunity to even more expand my role and work within many different um, industries as well as many different content approaches, whether it's B2C or B2B. Um, and just in health care and then in construction of all things. So I really got a great um, peek behind the curtain of what it takes to make um, not just your company run but also your team run. Uh, and I've just as I've learned more and more, really practiced and used that knowledge uh, with my own teams as I've um, become more of a manager and a leader.

Speaker A: Fantastic. Well yeah, I mean you've obviously got loads of great experience which is, you know, I think it's always great having that breadth of uh, different perspectives from different businesses and working with different client types and so on. Um, because it really gives you that well rounded view that I think we all need as marketers. At Ignite, you're going to be talking to delegates about how they can sustain creativity in high velocity marketing teams. And as we know marketing at the moment is very go, go, go. Uh, as soon as you finish one thing it feels like we're straight onto the next thing. So I suppose my question, because I don't want to go over the same ground of what you're going to cover at the event, but my question is around what have you actually seen happening in marketing teams that made you want to talk about this at Ignite in the first place?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's very personal to me. Um, it's uh, you know, I've seen it um, I've seen it multiple times at multiple different companies in different positions and as we expand our, our goals, as we increase our goals as a company, um, combined with um, adding in different tool sets, um, like AI adding into um, you know, the ever increasing political climate changing um, and things like, or ever changing political climate, uh, things like that, um, have really have really um, changed the scope of a creative team. Um, I've also gone back and forth with where you know, I've been in companies where they've outsourced it, but in companies where it's in house and it's kind of cyclical, it goes, okay, we're going to save money, we're just going to have an agency and then it's okay, we're going to save money, not have an agency and pull people in house. Um, and then all this time of this kind of back and forth, the work just keeps increasing and what we're asking of our teams keeps increasing. Um, and last fall it kind of reached a point where a frustration for me because I love the, the uh, bringing on new tool stacks and especially AI and incorporating AI into existing tools. I think that's just really fun and it's exciting for me, um, as a creative and it's exciting for my team. But there's this push to have um, these tools solve everything and be able to scale and do more when it's um, that's just not how they were made. We still have to have the human element.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think creativity, in order to thrive, you kind of need that space. You need the ability to uh, breathe. And it feels like if you've got a checklist of 300 things to do in a day and you've got five minutes set aside to come up with that million dollar creative idea, it's probably not going to happen. So I suppose then, you know, before we go any further, it'd be really good to know what you think the cost of having a marketing team that's lost its creative spark is. I appreciate that's absolutely not an exact science. Um, but I'd love to know, you know, in what ways do you think those teams lose out?

Speaker B: Um, so with my own research, reaching out to um, industry peers, talking uh, with my team as well as my husband's a graphic designer and so just looking um, and listening to the team around me, it really, we're really sacrificing uh, some morale. Um, we're sacrificing the ability to be who they want to be whenever they're developing an actual project. Meaning if it's a video project, um, and it maybe the actual video build takes six hours, but maybe they actually need a full day to storyboard and brainstorm and research. But we're not allowing any of that creative space. And so then it becomes a morale hit whenever we're asking our team members to just give half of their best of what they think and they don't want to produce something that they're not really invested in. So I'm seeing a lot of morale issues. I'm seeing a lot of um, toxic environment. So not really understanding or having empathy for the other person because we're all moving so fast and uh, we're all moving toward the same goal and we're working on the same team. Uh, and so having that kind of toxic environment is not great for creativity either. Um, and then just pure stress on a person not wanting to come into work. You Know, not wanting to, um, or not understanding how their work, um, really influences the company. Because it's just one thing and then the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And so that pride there and understanding, like, hey, I did that, I helped reach those goals for the company, we kind of lose the sight of that.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, of course. You know, and I mean, AI was supposed to solve all of the work that marketers have to do. Um, and you know, AI is very helpful in a lot of ways. Let's have it right. It's incredibly powerful at analyzing huge amounts of data. It's fantastic at generating, um, ideas just to run with a brainstorm. It's fantastic at many, many things. Um, but I think what it doesn't replace is, uh, a human being's ability to come up with creative ideas and come up with that fantastic copy that's really going to resonate with an audience or that story. And yet quite often it feels like because creativity is the thing that marketers don't necessarily feel they have the time to do or maybe the energy to do, they actually end up using AI to do it, to, uh, do it, which is actually the one thing it's really not great for. I mean, Karen, in your view, is that something you agree with? You see that a lot in the marketplace, or what's your experience of how marketers are using AI when it comes to creativity?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, um, from a creative team standpoint, uh, we've really held the line with making sure that it's human input, human output. Really looking at AI, um, as a tool for a great example is, um, content. That was the first, um, tool base. We had a lot to choose from. When it comes to content, it's easier to create, but really looking at it, uh, more as our partner, not the end result. So, uh, specific tools that we might use, looking at it for research as well as first drafts, asking questions and probing and analyzing data and things like that, that really would take us days of time of research. We can condense that. So that's the time savings for me, not the creative writing part. Um, and when it comes to designers, uh, uh, specifically it's incorporating AI into their existing tool sets like Adobe Creative Suite. And it's uh, time savings for cleaning up images. Not great at creating. Net new images. We're getting better and better, but that's not the point of it. It's more around. We know our audience, we know what we want to have in the image, we know who we want to reflect. Um, so. And you know, I'm sure other, uh, teams do as well. And so it's using it as a tool to maybe manipulate and edit and shave off some of that manual time when it comes to, uh, image, uh, adjustments as a specific example. Um, so there are things that it helps to speed up for sure, but it is that tool and that partner, it, it can't replace that human creativity. It can help it along, um, but it can't and shouldn't replace the human part. That's why we hired these people. Uh, they're professionals and we trust their, um, their expertise.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And I think, you know, the one thing that strikes me is that so much of marketing is about understanding client needs. It's about understanding who's in your market. It's about understanding where the opportunities are, where the risks are, what the sales cycle looks like, who's in a buyer group. There's all these things that a really well rounded commercial marketer needs to be not just aware of, but, you know, heavily involved in and a real expert in. And it sometimes, it sometimes feels to me that being a marketer is getting increasingly complicated. Um, so I suppose my question is if with all this complexity going on, where is it that creativity actually matters? You know, where is it that marketers really need to, um, make sure they don't lose that creative spark and actually get creative?

Speaker B: Um, so I think the, the sweet spot of where marketers using that kind of broadly as a whole as a, um, term, where the creativity comes in, whether you're a designer or writer, or whether you're in charge of the segment or talking with sales or field team, the creative part comes with the storytelling. So we are, um, all pulled into looking at the data specifically, but we're not all data analysts. That's just not everybody's strong suit. So I think it becomes a matter of taking that data and what is the story behind it and being able to communicate that story. That's where creativity comes in, where you're looking at it as a whole and you're creating hypotheses and you're testing it out, improving it, and then you're delivering that story, uh, to each individual team along the journey. So if it's at the beginning where they're doing audience work, they're looking at data specific to that, they're telling that story and they're delivering that story to the creative team as an example, so that we can go and write and design to that, um, and what we're trying to accomplish. So for me, that feels like a natural spot of bringing, um, our team members back into, um, a fun part of their positions. Um, and not just numbers. Numbers, numbers.

Speaker A: Yeah, of course. And I think when we talk about creative and creativity, it can be a natural instinct to immediately go to imagery and advertising and so on. But a lot of that storytelling you've mentioned is, you know, quite often it will be delivered by the sales team, whether that's on a call or at an event. Um, you know, it's not always just being delivered via a digital asset on, on social media. So I suppose really what, what I'm trying to say is, you know, is it, is it really up to marketing to be creative everywhere? Is that fair to say?

Speaker B: Oh, I definitely agree. Yeah. I think everybody has a creative bone and, um, you know, within their own positions, they make it what, um, what it is and we all. That's where we get back to the human part. That's where we all influence each other and help each other, uh, reach our company's goals, um, as well as our personal goals. Um, and that's the kind of fun part of creativity.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, Abs, absolutely. Um, so I would put a, I'm going to put a hypothesis forward. Uh, it's up to you to agree or disagree. There are, of course, no wrong answers. But I would argue that with AI, despite it providing a huge opportunity for marketers to, you know, integrate it into their teams, into their, um, into their operations, not, not only within, but outside of marketing as well and deliver better work, I would argue that a lot of marketers out there are using it to simply produce more of what they were already doing. Um, and sometimes that can lead to a sort of disillusionment around the, actually the effectiveness of AI. So, you know, and as a very simple example, quite often this means that, you know, many marketers out there are competing not just against 100 ads, let's say, but tens of thousands of ads. Um, I appreciate that's a really simplistic example. So I would argue that creativity is now more important than ever because there's so much more volume out there that you really have to, you really have to stand out. Um, so, yeah, what are your thoughts on that? Do you agree? Do you disagree?

Speaker B: Um, yeah, yeah, it's very watered down. I absolutely agree. Uh, anybody can be a content creator and it's kind of a catch 22. I kind of love that. I love that, like, there are just some funny people out there that are reaching so many audiences, um, or very, um, poignant people. Even that are reaching different types of audiences that I really like their content and they would not have reached had that kind of reach had they not, um, had all the tools that we have available at our fingertips, um, and being able to show their creativity. However, as a business, it does make it difficult to, to kind of fight through the noise. And so that, to me absolutely thinks, okay, well, we've gotta, we've gotta think differently. We've got to think more outside the box, but within our brand parameters, you know, so we. It does, I think it does challenge creative thinking a lot more. Uh, because of that and that's a good thing. We're challenging each other, um, to stay fresh and to stay nimble. Um, also, I think it gives uh, us an opportunity. Um, so I think our hypothesis is correct, but I think it's going to be a positive thing and then it gives us an opportunity to work with these type of people. So, like looking at influencers, um, working with your, uh, in my, uh, particular field. So working with your actual clinicians and your med students and um, meeting them where they're at.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, completely. And I think you mentioned at the beginning of your response then that uh, AI has given everyone the power to be a content creator, which is kind of good, um, and kind of bad at the same time because, um, you know, used incorrectly, what we may see is, uh, you know, people without that kind of commercial marketing background and that marketing expertise, um, using AI to create more effectively bad content m at scale. Whereas obviously what we really want is commercial marketers, um, you know, using their expertise, uh, to, to use AI to, To help them deliver better work. Um, so the question here, and not necessarily going to, to solve it, but how do we stop AI being used, you know, for bad by businesses? Um, you know, God forbid that, you know, an accountant gets their hand on AI for marketing purposes anytime soon.

Speaker B: Um, yeah, I don't know. I think, um, being good stewards of, um, AI within our own roles, our own companies, our own personal lives and how we use it and how we talk, uh, about it, um, because like I said, I, I love the uh, advancement of AI and the capabilities that we have, um, at our fingertips. I think it's really interesting and I encourage my team to try out new tools, get a month subscription, like just dig in and just really learn it. And it's okay to say that's not a good tool or that is not developed enough. That's even more important than just blindly adopting all things AI in every single tool set and using them All Um, so I think it's being good stewards ourselves as well as making sure that we understand governance. Um, also lean into the um, your peers that are good prompt engineers, peers that really understand how to word, um, the right kind of prompts to get the right kind of results, um, and what we're trying to accomplish and make friends with them. Not again, like, not everybody's a data analyst, not everybody's a prompt engineer. But we're kind of pushing everybody to think like that and it's not natural. So just really um, using our resources, uh, um, having some governance, uh, step forth for ourselves, not just our company but personally, um, how do you want to use this and what does this mean to your life? And um, how do you want to uh, integrate anything, um, AI or any other kind of tools within your own life? Um, and then leaning into peers that know more than you do?

Speaker A: Yeah, no, uh, nothing wrong with that whatsoever. Um, so obviously Karen, uh, you are going to be speaking at B2B Ignite on 1 July in London. Tickets are still on sale for everyone listening, so please do check out the event and make sure you get your tickets today. Um, but Karen, I think my final, final question for you, uh, uh, is around the fact that you know, you're going to be speaking at the event around how to balance high velocity with originality. So you know, kind of touching on some of the stuff we've just spoken about. Um, also how to implement processes that foster creativity and ways to actually build a culture where quality thrives even under the huge amounts of pressure that you know, we know all B2B marketers are uh, currently under. So in your experience, when people actually follow the lessons that you're going to lay out in your event session, what do you think they can expect to see as an outcome?

Speaker B: I think first and foremost they can expect to see a happier team. Um, and it's not easy. It's going to be, it's not easy for a leader to implement, um, some of my suggestions. I am still implementing my suggestions and listening to my team. Um, but I want my team to be happy. I want them to feel fulfilled in the their role. Uh, like I said, we hired them for a reason. I don't want to lose anyone. And so um, really implementing the tips and tricks as well as adding your own and making sure that it's very personal to your own team members. I think, um, you know, happiness in their role as well as um, more time and actual space for creative thinking and bringing them in at the beginning of a project and using, um, their skill sets, how they should be used, not just to as production or not just as a system, but actually as that person, as that talent.

Speaker A: Fantastic. Well, we are very much looking forward to all of the stuff you're going to talk about at Ignite, and we'll hopefully see you there and have a, uh, catch up on the floor. So, um, tickets are still on sale, as I say, so please do check them out by following the link in the description, and hopefully we'll see you very, very soon at the event. Uh, Karen, thank you very much for joining, and we'll see you very, very shortly.

Speaker B: Great. Thank you.

Speaker A: No problem at all. Thank you, too. Bye. Bye. Sam.