Episode 220: Why judgment is your strategic advantage in the age of AI, with Marketbridge and Turtl

Speaker A: Welcome to the B2B Marketing Podcast and I'm joined by two recent guests, uh, on the podcast, uh, ahead of our B2B Ignite, uh, conference on the 1st of July. And we've brought these guests back because during the course of those interviews there were some big themes that emerged and we wanted to dig a little bit deeper into those. So I'm very pleased to welcome Nick, uh, mason back, uh, CEO of Turtle, uh, Fiona MacKenzie, Fi MacKenzie, uh, from MarketBridge, President of Europe. Thank you for coming back to the podcast. Um, one of the things that came out of the podcast which really resonated with me, um, was this concept that we're moving from a knowledge economy to a judgment economy. And I think there's so much in that. Um, Nick, just tell us a bit about how that came about and your thinking on that.

Speaker B: Yeah, so first of all, I can't claim that it's my, uh, original thought, just to be really clear. So it's the distinction that's made between intelligence tasks and judgment tasks. And obviously that's super relevant as we look forward to, ah, the uncertain future of AI and what it's going to do. But I think that what people are realizing is that there's two types of jobs that we as human beings do. There's intelligence tasks, which are the types of things that you can train, say, a very intelligent graduate to do quite, ah, reliably. And then there's judgment tasks, which are things that require a degree of sort of gut instinct, taste, uh, you know, all those sorts of words, uh, uniquely human capabilities, let's say, that have to sit on top of intelligence tasks in order to make sure that we move in the right direction. So to take an example, the one that I think makes the most sense to me, uh, let's say that you're doing, um, NDAs in, uh, a legal department. Well, if you are, ah, just preparing the NDAs, picking which template to use, filling them incorrectly, checking it was done properly, that's an intelligence task. But managing the overall risk profile of that NDA program, that's a judgment task. And that requires that human instinct and gut feel as well as intelligence. And so the separation between those two types of tasks I think is a really interesting thing to think about.

Speaker A: So, I mean, bringing it back to marketing, because I think it's highly relevant to the profession that we're in. Does judgment become competitive advantage?

Speaker B: I think absolutely. I think that in a world where anyone can execute any intelligence task, I'm thinking into the future here at any kind of Scale at any time of speed, which I think ultimately is what AI is going to promise. Where is left to compete when that becomes table stakes? Um, the only thing that you can really compete on is what do you know that no one else knows? What do you think that no one else thinks? What makes you unique and interesting and worth talking to and thinking about, as opposed to everyone else in your category.

Speaker A: Sure. Fee judgment.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I think on a macro level, um, this is where it really comes back to kind of strong leadership and how that cascades into your brand vision, the mission, the purpose of the organization, to allow people to make strong judgments day to day. You have to have a really clear infrastructure operating model that gives people that clarity. I think on a micro level, if I take one example with AI, um, if we look at the creative and the AI tools that our teams have been testing using for the last couple of years, it really is the people that are able to use the right judgments along that journey as they're using those tools that are getting the best output. So I think we can see that living day to day. Um, but it's a very big theme that I'm sure we'll be digging into more over the coming year.

Speaker A: So we're going to have 700 marketers in the room at Ignite, uh, on the first of July, um, you know, message to them, is the human in the loop more important than ever?

Speaker C: I mean, absolutely. I think kind of we've dug into that across these conversations. But the role of the cmo, the role of the marketing leaders really is to be that orchestrator. They need to be the architect. I think the people that sit within the teams, like we said, they still have to think about the role that they play day to day in creating that wider thinking and how they connect the dots.

Speaker A: Okay, that makes sense. One of the other areas we got into was the kind of plethora of data, so many AI tools, this opportunity for almost perfect marketing. Do you think that's a reality?

Speaker B: I mean, the way we think about it, certainly with sort of content and messaging, is trying to move towards perfect fit marketing. What we mean by that really is, uh, three things. Trying to identify the buying group, align the buying group and get them to consensus. And we think that, um, you know, the better that you understand the buying group and the more flexible and adaptable you are in terms of exactly how you nuance your messaging for each member and for, uh, you know, the different stages that they're going to be at through their journey, the easier it is to navigate towards that perfect fit world.

Speaker A: V, you know, from the point of view of your experience, is it perfection in marketing or is it perfection in go to market?

Speaker C: I think it has to be perfection in go to market. We need to be thinking about this with a growth lens as a whole organization. I think when we're thinking about buying group consensus, really it comes back to the customer. We all need to be thinking customer first, whether that's a net new prospect that we're trying to nurture, uh, within the buying groups, that consensus, um, consensus buying, or when they become a customer themselves. So really the model we're trying to move to, to build on what Nick said is every touch point becomes a signal that we build on. It becomes a live piece like you said, you know, it's that circular kind of that wheel. It's never going to stop.

Speaker A: Yeah, okay. And signals, intents, you know, we dug into that a little bit. It intent and signals are uh, there are more than ever, arguably, I mean almost definitely, but they are unreliable in many cases. Um, and you'd argue that they should be getting more reliable. We should be um, getting closer to being able to predict biobehavior. But it doesn't quite seem to be happening. What's going on?

Speaker B: Well, I think this is where it's one of those wonderful moments where I'm always optimist in these things, where exactly that problem, uh, the moment that problem has come along so is the solution. So I think that the mistake that people make is looking at a small number of intense signals and trying to divine truth from them. I think you have to look at the whole picture and that means a lot of data, it means a lot of insights, a lot of intent signals. How are you going to process and manage all of that and what comes along. But AI with huge ability to go through all of that data, find patterns, uh, understand what's predictive and what's not predictive. I think that people are already doing this and seeing tremendous success. So I'm not going to get the stats right, but there's a report I was reading that saying the more predictive models or the more layers of predictive modeling that you have in that process, the better outcomes that people are getting. And that's been studied, I think at quite a degree of scale. So problem, ah, presents as I say, in terms of the amount of data, but also I think we have kind of a very appropriate, um, solution, uh, in AI and fi.

Speaker A: Ah, you know, you and I have talked about this a lot, but marketers have built a capability set over a long period of time that went way beyond their initial briefing marketing. They used to be, you know, doing product price, you know, the four P's, but actually you know, in many cases they've built the ability to work with data, the ability to do tech integration, this ability to troubleshoot, stakeholder management, campaign manager, all of the things that marketers used to do plus this kind of capability within technology and data. Do you think we're entering this world where those capabilities plus core marketing give marketers a golden opportunity to, you know, as I talked about, uh, we're talking about in my talk to be the most valuable player in the growth organization?

Speaker C: Uh, oh, without a doubt. I mean firstly, just to say, isn't it exhausting just listening to everything you've just said, like the amount of change that marketing teams have been through? I mean, you know, we're a resilient bunch for sure. I think um, some good insights come when um, I recently held a, uh, a session for senior marketing leaders out of seat looking for the next role. And I think you get a real sense of what brands are looking for in marketing leaders when you speak to that cohort because you understand the interview questions, you understand the hiring and what they're looking for. Um, and everything you just said in terms of that wider understanding of the tech stack, you know, the operational, the marketing ops role. It's no longer just that brand and creative piece yet that is such an important part of the differentiator that we still need to do this journey that we speak about. So without a doubt, but it's a challenge for sure. Like I don't think that we should pretend this is an easy journey but I think that's where you know, um, events like Ignite, um, come in, where we're able to offer practical advice, we're able in smaller workshops and breakout sessions to really get into the detail and try and find solutions and roadmaps for change.

Speaker A: For sure, one of the things we see in the B2B Marketing Awards and we've got the privilege of judging the best work in B2B. Um, and it is genuinely a privilege. And one of the things we see is that this, this more tangible connection between and you touched on it, brand um, thought, leadership, content, the things that are traditionally feel a little bit further away from commercial goals. But there is a m much clearer tangible connection between that work that's going on in creativity and cut through and really smart uh, thinking and the commercial outcomes. I mean Nick, are you seeing that?

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. I think people are, ah, certainly from what I see waking up to that reality. I was talking uh, to uh, uh, uh, senior marketing leader at a customer a couple of weeks ago and they said, I know I want to get rid of um, MQLs, but I'm not quite sure what replaces it. And that precipitated a huge conversation about the importance of brand and thought leadership and perspective and all of this. So definitely we're seeing people move in that direction and recognize the importance of brand, the challenge with it. And to do, uh, Einstein again, I think he said not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts. And the challenge with brand is that it's quite difficult to quantify the impact. But that doesn't mean it doesn't matter. But I think we just have to accept that to some degree and find sort of inference, uh, where we can and find some way of tying back to brand. Uh, but I think that people are starting to see that.

Speaker A: I think, Fee, this is a really interesting one for you because again, in my experience of talking to marketers, the ones who get investment in brand are the ones who have built trust in the bits that can be very clearly measured. And once they've got the trust, the trust is there to work on something that perhaps it's certainly got more metrics against it, but perhaps is a little bit more opaque in terms of immediate delivery. But because the trust is there, the trust is, it extends to being able to do that type of brand work. Is that what you see with your clients?

Speaker C: Without a doubt. And it almost comes back to that kind of judgment discussion that we were having. You know, people are going to be trusting the judgments that you make as senior leaders, the plans that you're putting in place, the strategies that you have. But I guess I would challenge, um, you know, the, the capability is there now to measure the impact of brand, to measure the impact of creative. That is what we're trying to get to with, you know, a system thinking kind of marketing or growth function. So that is what all go to market teams should be striving for. We've done some incredible kind of attribution modeling across a couple of the clients that we work with where we're now able to help them pull the levers so they can see the impact of different brand campaign programs. And um, that's really allowing to use their data to not look backwards and analyze to try and make decisions, actually look at the trends that would follow and if they pull different levers in budget investment, sorry, how they'd actually be able to change kind of, you know, the traditional growth trajectory that they would see. Now, of course it's not a perfect science. I wish it was. Um, but it comes back to that kind of roadmap for change and how you can kind of move one step at a time into that kind of full go to market system that we should all be striving for as marketers.

Speaker A: It's interesting. Uh, attribution is a good topic. I was in a discussion recently where somebody asked, is attribution multi touch attribution actually possible? And I think the. Well, let me ask you Nick, is multi touch attribution really possible?

Speaker B: I mean, it's definitely possible because people do it. And how predictive or accurate it is is another question. And I think that I see it really vary from case to case. I think that a one size fits all model of attribution is where things go wrong. Again, going back to some of the conversations previously about MLS, um, so yeah, I think everyone has to have a think about how they want to attribute what's meaningful and also what they want the attribution to let them do. Because it has to be connected up to particular levers that you can do more or less of. Otherwise it's pointless.

Speaker A: Yeah, sure. And I think the conclusion we reached was that actually aspiring for perfection in that space is a fool's errand. It's about the ability to make more confident commercial decisions. So what is enough to make a more confident decision, uh, in where you spend, in where you invest, um, but don't aspire for the completely right answer.

Speaker B: Yeah, but I think it's also worth, at least in my opinion, recognizing that there is no complete perfect answer because you invariably end up in causation versus correlation type discussions and what have you. And that's where I think being adaptable and being able to test things and say, well, look, we don't know, but these two things, X went up and Y went up. Um, so let's try doing more of X and if we get more of Y, then we can start to assume that it's causal in some way. Um, but this is really hard to do. Um, and so I think being flexible and being responsive to the data and being happy to test and adapt as we go is key because I can't remember who made the point. But it's never going to be an exact science. You have to embrace that and be very adaptable.

Speaker C: And as marketeers, we've talked a lot about the exhaustion, the challenges we Face. But you kind of like, uh, you know, I talk about marketing mojo. Like, how do we get it back? And exactly what you've just said. Like, we have to figure out, like, what is possible, what are the things we can measure? And I think, I guess the kind of test is, is the initiatives and the metrics that we're working towards driving growth and moving the buyer and the buying groups in the right direction, aligned to the company vision. If we're able to answer that in the roles that we play as marketers, you know, within departments, then I think that's a good indicator that we're moving in the right direction.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. And that leads me onto my last ish question. Um, what do you think the opportunity is for, uh, marketers and for the audience at Ignite in the next five years? What are you excited about for them?

Speaker B: So I'm always super optimistic, and I think that there's a huge opportunity in a period of change to totally rewrite the rule book. I think that marketers, if they get it right, can rewrite the rulebook, um, very much in. Well, firstly, in the customer's favor and therefore in their favor. So I think that there's a huge amount of change and challenge and disruption and all the rest of it. But in my mind, pressure is a privilege, and if you can find a way through that and make it work for you, um, you can change things as you see fit. So I think if we get it right, it can really elevate marketing and, um, be very exciting.

Speaker C: Well, I think based on everything we've said about having, you know, um, the opportunities that technology presents, um, that kind of system thinking, that growth mindset, I mean, I feel like this genuinely is a chance for marketers to really show the progress we're making, to be able to go into the boardroom and own the conversation, to be championed internally, not be on the back foot to move from being reactive to proactive. So I think that is a really exciting opportunity that people should be absolutely grabbing onto. Yes, we know we're busy, but it's an exciting time for marketers, and I'm really looking forward to digging into that at Ignite.

Speaker A: And, yeah, I think it's a great point. And if I think about last year at Ignite, we came with quite a serious, uh, message. Um, I think it was important that we laid that message out, that it is a crossroads for marketers. There is an opportunity to reinvent. There is an opportunity, and if right now to reframe the role of marketing in the Organization, not as the promotions department, but, uh, as a tangible lever of growth, close to business strategy, close to the growth agenda. Um, I think this year it feels like we've gone beyond the sort of theoretical and the banging the drum for let's do it. It's actually happening. We're seeing it through the awards, we're seeing it through the examples that you've given. And it does feel like we, we're entering potentially a golden age for B2B marketing. It's really quite exciting.

Speaker B: I hope so. I think, um, going back again to that modeling of the buying journey, if 61% of it happens before people reach out to sales, who's going to deal with that? Who's going to make that better? I think it's unlikely to be the sales team, almost by definition. So marketing's got that incredible opportunity to really own that. And I think that's super exciting. There's so much that can be done.

Speaker A: Just one last question that's cropped up in my mind. If marketers are gaining 20 to 30% of their time back, the efficiency gains to avoid kind of Parkinson's law, where work expands to fill the time available, um, what should they do with that 30% time? Because you have to be intentional about it, how should they fill it?

Speaker B: Well, um, I think that with AI, um, sort of speeding up the learning loops, I think that there'll be more to learn from, uh, more things to think about and have judgment on, uh, as per the previous part of the conversation. And so I think that we're just going to be able to continually elevate what we're doing and spend more time at the high level. I mean, from my own experience, I guess just to relate it back to something more tangible than that. You know, I remember I used to spend a lot of my time, you know, thinking about day to day tasks and day to day concerns. And as the time has gone on, I've been afforded the luxury, let's say, of thinking about things higher level. There's so much to think about there. And I think until you do it and until you get that time and that space, it's like, well, what am I going to do with my time? But when you actually get that time in that space, suddenly you realize actually it is the most valuable time because it's the time that means that all the other time is worth something. And so I think that the more time that uh, marketers have at that level, at that level, it's just going to m, uh, improve results and be actually far more satisfying as well.

Speaker C: And what that means over time is that I mean job descriptions are going to change. You know what we kind of hire for, how we describe the roles across the kind of marketing ecosystem is going to look very different. So I think um, perhaps it's not what they're going to do with that time. I think it's our time is going to evolve and how we spend our time is going to transform. So um, that's something that I think we should be really considering and evolving as we're rehiring into our teams as CMOs are thinking about how they evolve their design. Um, we should be resetting those job descriptions each time. For sure.

Speaker A: For sure.

Speaker C: Closing Comments V See you at Ignite. Can't wait to discuss it further.

Speaker A: Brilliant. All right, thank you both so much, very much. Looking forward to seeing you again on the 1st of July. Thank you

Speaker B: Sam.