B2B Marketing Podcast · 2026-07-29 · 28 min
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
60 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
With over 15,000 martech vendors competing for attention and fewer than 50% of deployed features actually used, the hosts and Andrea Clatworthy explore whether the martech industry has peaked. The conversation reveals a fundamental mismatch: vendors excel at sales pitches while marketers struggle as buyers, often making decisions in isolation without involving IT, sales, or considering long-term adoption costs. Andrea emphasizes that organizations need clarity on actual business requirements before purchasing, involve users early in implementation (not just training), and recognize that technology implementation demands significant hidden resource investment beyond the software cost itself. The episode critiques marketing's obsession with easily-measurable but meaningless metrics like click-through rates and impressions, arguing this stems from both digital's inherent measurability and scarcity of genuine strategic thinking. AI's arrival amplifies these problems: vendors now claim AI capabilities across all platforms, companies make fractional purchases without organizational alignment, and there's a risk of using martech as a band-aid for poor strategy. Clatworthy notes that without skilled practitioners who understand marketing fundamentals, even best-in-class platforms fail, and warns against gaslighting ourselves into thinking poor results are always operator error when sometimes the technology itself simply can't deliver on vendor promises.
There are approximately 15,000+ martech vendors available, but fewer than half of features are typically used by companies, and only about 15% ever achieve ideal ROI - primarily because marketers lack clarity on requirements and buy without proper cross-functional input.
Beyond software licensing, significant resource investment is needed for evaluation, decision-making, implementation, training, change management, and ongoing adoption - these hidden people-hours and effort costs often exceed the actual platform expense and are chronically underestimated.
Digital marketing's inherent measurability made these metrics easy to track, and organizations often lack clarity on what actually matters, using available metrics as a proxy for value - ABM and revenue-focused approaches have improved this but demand gen still defaults to vanity metrics.
While AI should theoretically improve efficiency, it's currently accelerating problems by allowing vendors to claim AI capabilities across all platforms and enabling fractional, uncoordinated purchasing by individual champions without organizational strategy or skill depth to use it effectively.
Most organizations should first assess whether existing tools are fully utilized and properly configured, involve IT and other functions in that audit, and only then evaluate whether new technology addresses gaps - tweaking current setups often delivers better ROI than new purchases.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
The episode covers a few substantive points - peak martech saturation, adoption failures, vendor overselling, and metrics obsession - but relies heavily on broad observations without diving deep. While Andrea makes some solid points (e.g., fractional AI buying, login fatigue, the difference between signals and vanity metrics), many insights are conversational rather than novel or data-backed, and there's considerable throat-clearing and repetition that dilutes density.
there's something like 15,000 or more vendors out there and Gartner reckons that less than half of functionality is used by most companies
15% of companies ever get the ideal ROI out of martech
The core arguments - martech oversupply, poor buyer behaviour, obsession with vanity metrics, and AI hype - are well-trodden in B2B marketing discourse. Andrea's take on not needing an ABM platform and outsourcing to agencies is somewhat contrarian, but the broader framing recycles familiar critiques. The comparison to the Industrial Revolution and artisan skills adds minor originality but doesn't offset the largely recycled thesis.
be really clear about what it is you want rather than being bamboozled by all these great Martech
there's a risk we gaslight ourselves into a corner
Andrea Clatworthy is a legitimate practitioner - head of Europe marketing and transformation at Fujitsu, a substantial enterprise - and has direct experience buying and implementing martech at scale. She brings real operational perspective rather than pure theory. However, the episode doesn't fully leverage her seniority; more specific war stories and metrics from Fujitsu's decisions would have elevated this.
Andrea is the director head of Europe marketing and transformation over at Fujitsu
we don't have an ABM platform...we mostly do one to one
The episode cites two Gartner stats (15,000 vendors, <50% functionality used, 15% ROI achievement) but provides almost no concrete examples, named platforms, timelines, or budget figures. Andrea's Fujitsu case study mentions agency outsourcing and CRM basics but lacks specifics: no names, no spend, no measurable outcomes. The discussion remains largely abstract and anecdotal.
there's something like 15,000 or more vendors out there
15% of companies ever get the ideal ROI out of martech
Matt and Kavita ask reasonable setup questions and occasionally press Andrea (e.g., 'why the pressure on marketing to adopt?' and 'what metrics do you hate?'). However, follow-ups are often soft or rhetorical rather than challenging. The hosts don't push back on vague answers or demand specifics, and they let Andrea steer into comfortable territory (e.g., the Ferrari analogy). The conversation is friendly but lacks real adversarial edge.
How could marketers be better at sifting through and be better buyers of Martech?
What do you look for in Martech? What would be the key sort of signs that a platform might be the right fit for you?
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
In this episode of Bare-Knuckle B2B, our hosts Kavita Singh and Matt Hicks sit down with Fujitsu’s Andrea Clatworthy to ask a blunt question: have we hit peak martech? With 15,000+ vendors, low adoption, and only a fraction of functionality actually used, they dig into why marketers keep getting dazzled by shiny platforms, how to stop treating tech as a crutch for weak strategy, and why clicks, impressions, and other vanity metrics are quietly devaluing marketing in the boardroom. Andrea shares how Fujitsu has deliberately avoided the “mega ABM platform” route, instead using a lean spine of CRM, automation, intent data, and smart agency partnerships to get the outcomes without the bloated stack. They also explore how AI is amplifying both the promise and the problems of martech - from cheap, fractional tools creeping into teams to leaders overestimating cost savings and underestimating the adoption effort.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
Speaker A: Sam.
Speaker B: Hello and welcome to Bare Knuckle B2B, the B2B marketing podcast that cocks a snook at waffle and tells faff to feck off. We're after an unvarnished, honest look at an industry that can frankly sometimes tie itself in knots over flannel. I'm Matt, strategy director at ah, Lesniak Swan and I'm joined by Kavita from B2B Marketing, my co host.
Speaker C: Hi Matt, nice to see you again. So my name is Kavita Singh. I'm head of growth Solutions over at B2B Marketing and I'm very excited to be joined with our special GU today, Andrea Clatworthy. Andrea is the director head of Europe marketing and transformation over at Fujitsu. Andrea, how are you doing today?
Speaker A: I'm very well, thank you. Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker C: Yeah, really excited to have you on today's episode. Just a little story time. A few years ago, um, we were doing some market research about a Martech report that wasn't really resonating with our audience and so I was challenged with doing some interviews. And you happen to be one of my interviews. And obviously this was years ago but I just remember that you had such great takes and you had such an interesting and honest opinion on like the Martech space in general. So fast forward to today. You've reshaped that report in such a like huge way and it's had such a huge impact. So with that being said, um, I thought you were the perfect person for today's topic, which is, um, have we reached peak martech? Um, so yeah, really excited to kind of jump in. Matt, do you want to kick things off?
Speaker B: Sure. Hi Andrea, good to see you.
Speaker A: How you doing?
Speaker B: I'm good, thanks.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker B: Good. We're keeping cool, aren't we? It's not too bad.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Yeah, it's all right. There's some real eye opening stats around Martech, isn't there? I think that there's something like 15,000 or more vendors out there and Gartner reckons that less than half of functionality is used by most companies. So do you think we've reached saturation point with all this, haven't we? Do you think there's just too much Martech out there at the moment?
Speaker A: It sounds like it, doesn't it? Um, and there's so much choice. How do you make a decision? And ah, then what do you do once you've made that decision? That's part of the challenge.
Speaker B: It's a real challenge, isn't it? Because there's Another Gartner stat here is something like 15% of, um, companies ever get the ideal ROI out of martech as well. So I suppose that there's all sorts of questions about how you sift through what's good and bad, um, from suppliers in general, really.
Speaker A: Yeah. And do you need it? That's the other question. Probably. But what do you need? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C: I think as someone who's sort of written about multiple vendors over the past few years, I definitely notice the language being used and how they. It's almost like they promise the world in every single description that I read. And then I. My job is kind of to translate it into what are they actually achieving. So, um, I guess it'd be great to know if you think that, like, when vendors are presenting themselves, do you think they do a good job of selling themselves?
Speaker A: I think they do a brilliant job at selling themselves and the product and the service, uh, and whatever wrappers they put around it. And I think as marketeers, we're probably not very good at buying M. Hence that stat you declared, you know. Yeah, just. Adoption's not there.
Speaker B: No, no. How could marketers be better at sifting through and be better buyers of Martech?
Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, great question. I mean, there's some obvious things to think about, think through, you know, be really clear about what it is you want rather than being bamboozled by all these great Martech, you know, shiny things. Squirrel? Yes, please. I want all the toys, but they're not being clear on what you're going to do with them.
Speaker B: No, no, absolutely.
Speaker A: So being clear on your requirements up front, rather than going, yes, I want
Speaker B: this new thing that includes, I guess, linking right back up to a commercial case for why this would return value. We can't. We can't sit in the marketing silo alone and just see it as a. As a tool that's going to return safe marketing metrics. It's got to have a very strong commercial reason behind it. You know, an investment that can be millions or more, can't it?
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, um, absolutely. And it needs to fit with your processes or you need to be prepared to change all your processes or some of them. You know, it's never, it's never black and white, is it? But I think, uh, we are just not very sophisticated as marketeers at, uh, buying this stuff.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker B: What do you look for in Martech? What would be the key sort of signs that a platform might be the right fit for you?
Speaker A: It depends, doesn't it? There's so much choice and Every organization is different and their setup is different. What marketing needs to do as a function for their organization will vary depending upon buying cycles. What you're selling. There's so many parameters, think through that. One size doesn't fit all. So in a way it's great that there's so much choice. But, but then, you know, how do you sift through all of that when you've got some vendors who are brilliant at selling to you and could be very persuasive and you could easily make the wrong decision. And then I think in some organizations probably, I don't have evidence for this but a marketeer, uh, is buying without involving their IT department perhaps, you know, or, or sales even because you know the best. Martech doesn't just work for marketing, it works for the sales and ecosystem.
Speaker C: Right.
Speaker B: So you need to sort of practice what we preach and actually create our own decision making buying unit in our own business to make those decisions. Don't we really?
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah we do. Yeah. And, and perhaps we make decisions too quickly.
Speaker C: Mhm.
Speaker A: Uh, that could be a thing as well. Do you think?
Speaker C: Part of that also is revisiting what you already have just to make sure. Do we actually need to invest in the first place?
Speaker A: Do we need it? Do we need the Mortech? Yeah. Or can we make better use of what we've already got? Or can we tweak what we've already got? And sometimes there could be a tweak, couldn't there? Rather than bringing a new thing in.
Speaker B: That can often come from conversations with IT or sales or other parts of the business, can't it, you know, a fresh pair of eyes on what's being used and how that's from a sales point of view how that handoff's happening or from an IT point of view how something's installed and set up can often you can uncover some surprising, what should we say, cost efficiency synergies there, can't you firm.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: You have the right chats in that respect.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then if you take a step back and think, actually think really strategically, what are we trying to do and what martech do we need? What's you know, what's our spine and what are the bits that need to pop off of it? What do they need to look like, how do they need to work together and then have a roadmap rather than seeing something and thinking I need this shiny new thing, you know, oh squirrel, you know that, that old, that old thing. I think that's, I think that's real. But I think also increasingly, organizations are expecting marketing to be using all the tools. Uh, there's pressure, I think, for that. Um, and then if you're going to do all the vanity metric reporting, which I'm sure we're going to get onto, you need the Martech, because it's very difficult to do it without it.
Speaker B: Yes. Why do you think there's that pressure on marketing to have the latest technology? What's the reason for that in the wider business?
Speaker A: Don't know.
Speaker B: You've seen it yourself.
Speaker A: Yeah. Perhaps it's because everyone's under pressure to do more with less. There's an assumption that if you've got some tooling, some new martech.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: Then you can do more with less. But we know, don't we, and there's stats out there on this that actually the adoption curve means that you need to put more resource into it whilst you're going through that. Even, uh, you know, back to that decision, which one to buy, you need to put a load of resource onto that. And then when you make that decision, you need to put a lot of resource into making sure you adopt it and use it and continue to. And that's a big. That's an investment in its own right, isn't it? Yeah, uh, yeah. You don't want to see it on the bottom line. It's not money necessarily going out the door, but it's still resource, time, effort, people's time, et cetera, that you need to be using.
Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, do you think organizations are sort of currently underestimating the amount of time needed for, you know, putting these platforms in place? And I think, like, oftentimes, you know, you'll get the calendar, invite training on this specific platform that we've just invested in. You do the training and then there's almost a question of, like, well, now what? I feel like there's a lot more that goes into it.
Speaker A: Yeah. And you can't just rock up and have some training, can you? Really? You know, perhaps then, if you think about it logically, when we're selling to organizations, you know, we're taking buyers on the journey. And when we can, especially from an ABM perspective, you think about the users as well as the buyers. So perhaps when we're buying Martech, we're forgetting our users as part of that journey, so they're involved, at least consulted or at least informed, so they know it's coming. They don't just get a training invite and think, oh, what's this then? Some other tool I've got To learn to use mhm.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: Which is a danger. Oh, not another tool, not another login. Because you never get single sign on immediately.
Speaker B: When you get it from having been in house, you get it from all sides, don't you? It's not just marketing that's asking you to log into something. There'll be a HR platform or sales here or admin there. It's. There's all sorts going on, isn't there? So there's a real practicality to what you could call it login fatigue. There we go. There's. There's a phrase to coin. It's real, isn't it? And how you overcome that. You've got to have a really strong reason as to why someone would use something and that routes back, I suppose to the logic of why you'd. Why you'd have it in the first place.
Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. Because you don't, you know, when you're buying as a human being for your home, you don't think, oh, you'll have a rocket ship because I need to commute to work, do you? So. Yeah, yeah. Ah, you buy something that's appropriate for what you need.
Speaker B: Yeah. It links back as well into how common sense, the basics of marketing in terms of customer journey, ICPs and all that. You've got to really link tech back into what, what, what job you're doing and how that's going to help you. Yeah, we don't, we don't say move along the funnel anymore, do we? That it's an outdated motion. But how we can help people at different stages that journey when they're in them or when they might m. Want to go back. The tech's got to fit in with that, hasn't it? Not, not the other way around.
Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I think we still do use the funnel, actually.
Speaker B: Do you think people move through it in a linear fashion? That's the, that's the, that's the thing is it really. It's squiggly. The phases are still relevant, aren't they? Yes, I'm ah, a. Yeah, I'm a fan of that but yeah, yeah, but
Speaker A: they're definitely squiggly and people go up and down, especially as buyers change. So uh, you know, think about a sales cycle. If it takes two years, it's unlikely that the same set of people are on that buying committee at the start is at the end.
Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. And they'll have done the hokey cokey over many times all the way through, won't they? Not the different stages.
Speaker A: Yeah. And the decision makers would have changed.
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A: The business environments change. Do they still need to buy what they were going to buy from you?
Speaker B: Yes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A: There's a lot of deals that go
Speaker B: away and it's that common sense that you need to apply to choosing, choosing the tech, I suppose, isn't it, you know.
Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Do you think that um, AI, like with the introduction of AI that sort of pattern's been accelerated.
Speaker A: Every platform, every of those 15,000 martech things they say enabled or embedded or pick a word. Yes, but yeah, definitely. And it should be right. Yeah, yeah. We should be embracing this stuff but appropriately.
Speaker C: Right.
Speaker A: No one wants AI slop in whatever format that looks like.
Speaker C: Well, yeah, I think there's so many AI tools and I think there's also a lot of more affordable AI tools to invest in and only takes one person to say we need to invest in this and then you know, one person's using it, but maybe the organization isn't using it. So I think we have to also be a little bit more careful because you know, rather than investing in like this end to end platform which obviously there's more stakeholders involved. I think with AI it might feel like, oh, there's all these different AI platforms that we're investing in but the whole organization might not be aware of that.
Speaker A: Yeah. And I think sometimes when it's a small investment, like some AI could be, you can see fractional buying.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: And then you're not getting the economy of scale or the adoption and then you know, whoever that champion was for that small purchase, if when they move role, which they probably will or leave or whatever, then that, that knowledge and that usage disappears. Um, and then there's some will reinventing that happens and somebody says, oh, we need a thing. Didn't Bob used to have one of those?
Speaker B: Yeah, but yeah, no one knows how to use.
Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker A: It's on a server somewhere, still paying a subscription.
Speaker B: Oh yeah, sounds familiar. The whole narrative around AI. One benefit of AI is cost saving, efficiency in business. I suppose that's adding a whole another layer of pressure into marketing teams to adopt martech because it's taken that. Well, if you've got the tech, your overheads will be lower argument even further, hasn't it really? Whereas from what you were saying before, there's often hidden costs in adoption and actually servicing and running it. Do you think that AI will genuinely change that? Do you think there's an opportunity that it will help teams become more efficient from um, unmartech perspective?
Speaker A: I think it's got to. Yeah. If I had a crystal ball I could answer that correctly. But, but it's got to be.
Speaker B: Question.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We could debate this for hours, this one, couldn't we? Yeah, that's a good one. Over a few pints actually. But we've always known that AI ah would have an impact. We've been talking about it for years, haven't we? It's here, as we know and some people are suffering because of it. I mean it's definitely impacting, uh, entry level roles.
Speaker B: Yes, yeah.
Speaker A: So how do people then learn those skills that you need to at the start of your career? Because you know that, that those layers of work, if you like, a lot of that have been taken up by AI. So that's a real, that's a challenge because what's the impact of that in the longer term? You know, you can have the best martech in the world, but if you don't have people with the skills to be able to use the martech or define the strategy in the first place for your marketing, for which you need a set of skills, processes and all those sorts of things and we're all going to be stuffed.
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A: That worries me a bit actually.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker A: The adoption of tooling and you know, you could probably um, compare it back to the Industrial Revolution. Lots of skills got lost, didn't they?
Speaker B: Yes, yeah, yeah. Not all of them should have been lost and.
Speaker A: Yes, yeah. And, and then we're getting, you know, we as human beings now value the artisan, don't we?
Speaker B: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. The scarcity value. Because it's, it's gone out of common, um, common capabilities, hasn't it? I suppose.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B: There was, I can't remember where, where it was written but there was an article last week about how some, some um, companies in finance are actually looking beyond um, AI, um capabilities and recruitment because what they're getting back from a lot of young people is people have what appear to be surface level skills but a lack of depth underneath. So there's, there's definitely a balance there. Without getting drawn into the existential AI debate for too long, there's definitely a balance to strike there with Martech as well. If you look into someone that's capable of running this stuff.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: You want someone that's been hands on and had their actual, been on the tools for a time with it, don't you as well?
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Otherwise you don't know what to ask, do you? And you don't know what good looks like.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B: I suppose one area, um, that I could help. We'll leave AI there from here is, is around statistical analysis, interrogation of data, how things are measured and reported. In Martech. There's a risk there, I've noticed down the years of quantification bias, it's called, where people would naturally gravitate towards what's easy to measure. Even that's not necessarily the best thing to measure or the best way to understand what's going on. Do you think there's a risk of that, specifically with Martech? That it can send you down the wrong route in terms of what you're measuring because it's so easy to do it?
Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. And I think it's before Martech M became a big thing as well. The shift to digital, if you like, because digital stuff is inherently measurable, then that's what you measure. And some of it's rubbish. It doesn't mean anything to the, to your organization.
Speaker B: No.
Speaker A: Uh, you know, I don't care how many clicks there were. What does that mean? What's the business impact of that?
Speaker B: You know?
Speaker A: Yeah, those things. So as a profession, we've fallen into that trap.
Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A: And that's really dangerous because then we're, we are devaluing the value that marketing brings to the growth engine of any organization. It's a real shame ABM fixed, uh, that a bit, especially on one to one, you know, because then we're not looking at clicks, we're looking at relationships and reputation and revenue, those classic three Rs and whatever bits you want to add on to that. Um, so that did change that paradigm a bit. But we as a generally for like demand gen and growth stuff, we're definitely slipping back still. And we keep telling ourselves we're slipping back.
Speaker B: I don't know why we do it as a profession.
Speaker A: I know, I know. You know, you get conferences, for three or four years we've been saying this to ourselves. Let's stop doing it. The why are we still doing it?
Speaker B: Click through rate still. Still pervades.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And impressions and, you know, don't care. Yeah.
Speaker C: I think those metrics are good for the marketing team specifically because like everything haters. Yeah. They're great indicators. There's signals at the end of the day. But I think if you're relying specifically on those metrics and then bringing that to the C suite, obviously that doesn't resonate.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Complete rubbish.
Speaker C: Yeah. I think often that does come from. I think you mentioned scarcity, Matt, earlier. I Think that comes from sort of a place of scarcity, where these are the only metrics you have. So it's easy for you to kind of go down this path of like, well, this must be what we should be measuring. Do you think that technology is sometimes used as almost an excuse for, like, a good strategy or maybe the need to revisit a content plan, for example?
Speaker A: Yeah, I think it could be. And I think AI is making that even worse. There's loads of examples, and I've read some recently where, um, chief execs are questioning the need to have a cmo. But AI can do it, right.
Speaker B: Why have a CEO? AI could do that, couldn't they?
Speaker A: Yeah. You could make the same argument, couldn't you? But we know, don't we, because we're using it, that AI can be quite superficial.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: There are instances where it's really not where you're using it in, um, do some really good profiling and using some really clever psychology, for example.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: To create fantastic content. But that's like one use case, isn't it? Right, yeah. But can AI write a marketing strategy for you? Yeah. Is it going to be any good?
Speaker B: No.
Speaker A: Don't know. No, probably not. You know, if it's crowdsourced, essentially. I'm using the wrong words.
Speaker B: No, no, I know what you mean. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A: Garbage in, garbage out. Right.
Speaker B: So mediocre, mediocrity.
Speaker A: And then everyone's going to be of that same level. Yeah. And then back to that scarcity, artisan awesomeness bit. Yeah. That you need. And that's where people are going to stand out and do some really great work and have impact.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: Yeah. Because you can have great work that doesn't have business impact. So then you've got a question. Well, why are you doing it? Because you need the business impact. So if the Martech doesn't support the strategy that is going to have impact, then why do it in the first place?
Speaker B: Exactly.
Speaker A: Yeah. Or it's a crutch.
Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker A: It was the thing with where you were going, you know. Uh, uh. Are we too easy? Oh, yeah. We need to fix this big problem. Let's buy this platform.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B: Actually, it might be a more nuanced picture.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: We need to be careful as well, I think, don't we? There's a temptation with AI. We've mentioned it again. We can't avoid it. Um, but technology more general martech that we might gaslight ourselves a little bit and that if we're not using the functionality right, we might as Marketers might think, well that's a problem with us and how we're using it. Well, in some cases it might be, but in other cases it might well be that the tool. I could certainly think cases with AI for example. I don't think it could create a marketing strategy. And it's not a fault of whoever's developing the prompts or using it. It's just fundamentally can't do it at the moment. So there's a risk we gaslight ourselves into a corner in a way. If that's a thing. We're assuming it's us at fault when actually it could be the capabilities of the technology itself that we need to be careful where that line lies. I think.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think you're right.
Speaker B: So we've talked a lot about, you know, the theory behind it. Be good to get some of your practical stories really about how you implemented Martech in your role at Fujitsu. Both good and bad. Really give us some war stories.
Speaker A: Oh, there's so many. I think the first thing to say, we don't have an ABM platform. Mhm. Okay. Conscious decision.
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A: Um, um.
Speaker B: What was the reason for that?
Speaker A: Well, we mostly do one to one. Mostly. And dbm. So ABM and ABM at one to one dbm, there's examples where we're doing demand gen more broadly or sector marketing or whatever. But actually if you're mostly putting your effort into one to one, you don't really need a massive marketing platform.
Speaker B: No, no.
Speaker A: What you do need is your. Right. Agency ecosystem who have it.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: So that you can use it when you need it rather than making that big in house investment yourself. So that's the route we went.
Speaker C: Uh.
Speaker B: Oh, interesting. Yeah, yeah. So you put it in the cloud, but through the agency rather than, rather than yourselves. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A: Which means we don't have. There's a downside of that. You know, we don't have massive orchestration or you know, real time intent and all that. You know, there's things that we don't have. But if we're using uh, our agency partners correctly then then we do have that because it will be for that campaign or that program or whatever. You know, so that's, that's a really cost effective way of doing it. I think then by doing that you don't have to train your people, you don't have to take on the maintenance of the system, you don't have to continually upgrade or you know, there's lots of really good reasons to do that. So that's what we've done, um, we do have the basic. We've got a CRM and we've got some, you know, automation and we do have some first party intent and we buy some third party intent. Um, but we haven't made massive investments in Martech. No, no. Um, spreadsheets still, there's a place for it, isn't there?
Speaker B: Yeah, if it's used, right. Yeah, yeah. The amount of platforms you can plug spreadsheet data into, if it's done right.
Speaker A: Absolutely. And if think, you know, we were talking about analysis earlier. Well, actually, you know, I now can do that.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: You know, you don't need to buy tools to do that. You know, your basic copilot can do it, can't it?
Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. Um, if organizations are sort of operating on sort of that global spectrum, it'd also be great to know does that sort of impact the decisions and investments that you're making from a Martech perspective as well?
Speaker A: I think it depends how an organization structures themselves, whether they have centralized buying or not centralized, um, operating as well.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: Ah, horses for courses. I think so in an ideal world you'd buy once and deploy everywhere, wouldn't you? But that might not be appropriate for an organization to do so I think. Yeah, I think there's not a one size fits all on that.
Speaker B: But your solution by relying on the agency's tech actually helps in that case. If you're one part of a multinational and you perhaps don't have head office procurement where you're working, that's not a bad workaround, is it? Yeah, I suppose you've got challenges around data consent and that kind of thing and um, data protection, the phrase I'm after with it being with a third party. But if you can overcome that.
Speaker A: Yeah, and of course you can. There's always ways to do it in a couple. Compliance.
Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A: Um, and if you think about like global campaigns versus regional or local campaigns, most global campaigns I'm generalizing would be for awareness. So the m, the tracking that you require is very different from a campaign where you're really trying to engage in the funnel.
Speaker B: Yep, yep.
Speaker A: Up and down, left and right. To engage those real human beings as part of a sales motion in one way, shape or form. So that's when you use your agencies or your spreadsheet or your basic CRM M. Um, but for the big global stuff, you don't need it. So you don't need a big global Martech in order to track that awareness type stuff.
Speaker B: Have you ever plugged the two together in terms of a global campaign that you've activated regionally and tracked that, uh, have you managed to find a way of piping that in and feeding that into what you're doing purely on a local level? Because that can be a challenge, can't it, between the two?
Speaker A: We don't work that way.
Speaker B: No.
Speaker A: There must be loads of examples where they do, especially like American headquarters organizations where it tends to be go and deploy this country A, B, C, D. It's not how we operate.
Speaker B: No.
Speaker C: Nice. Well, I think we have a couple minutes left. One question for me.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker C: If a marketer listening only remembers one thing from this conversation, what do you think it should be? Yeah.
Speaker A: So my advice would be be really clear what you're buying. So, um, if you can't drive, don't buy a Ferrari. Mhm. Okay. If you can't do content orchestration and it's not part of your strategy, don't buy a complex Martech platform that you know, specializes in that. So, so buy the right tools. But if somebody wants to buy me a Ferrari, can I have a red one?
Speaker B: Yeah, fair enough. Yeah, put that on record. Don't cut that bit out.
Speaker A: Don't cut that. Yeah, um, there's loads of another other like soundy bite things like, you know, um, you could have the best set of golf clubs in the world but you only use a three iron. So buy what you need. Yeah. Don't buy functionality that you're never going to use.
Speaker B: Understand your game before you go out and buy.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, totally. You know there's, there's loads of anecdotes, isn't there, where people spend a lot of money on one of those great big well known platforms and they only use this much of it. Yeah, yeah, we hear this all the time, don't we? Mhm. And then they turn them off because it doesn't work. Well, it's not that it doesn't work, it's that you're not using all of it.
Speaker B: Yes, exactly. Yeah. I've got one last question. What's your, what's your most hated fluffy marketing metric? Talking about clicks. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A: It just doesn't mean anything.
Speaker B: No, no, just tyranny of the click.
Speaker A: Yeah. Actually all those vanity metrics I hate. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And somebody says to me, oh, you know, I don't care.
Speaker B: Well, you can spend hours going down the rabbit hole of all. Why, why, why did the click scorpion down?
Speaker A: Well it does bloody matter. It doesn't matter how many. If uh, we've had new unique visits.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Great. You know, if we can see cause and effect, that's great. You know, if we can see we're doing some omnichannel and it's trebled or whatever, you know. Yeah, that's great. That's really good to know. But, you know, some of this other stuff just does. Yeah. It doesn't mean anything. Yeah, yeah. It's not going to drive any investment. It's not going to drive any conversation with the customer. Um, and it's not gonna drive any good conversation with sales.
Speaker B: No.
Speaker A: And they're our, ah, media internal collaborators. And, you know, losing face as a profession with our sales colleagues is not a good thing.
Speaker B: Amen.
Speaker C: Awesome. Well, I think that is about all the time we have for today. Um, thanks so much, Andrea, for coming on this episode for, uh, bare knuckle B2B. And thanks, Matt, for obviously making this series possible.
Speaker A: Possible.
Speaker C: If you like this episode, you can check out our first episode, which was with Harry Davies. Or feel free to reach out to either Andrea or Matt on LinkedIn. Thanks so much, everyone. And I will see everyone again soon for another podcast.
Speaker B: Cheers. Thanks, everyone.
Speaker A: Bye, Sa.
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