306: Healing Starts Within with Dawn Wensel

Speaker A: Before we dive in, I want to give a huge shout out to donorperfect for supporting this podcast and the fundraisers who listen to it. They're not just a CRM, they're a partner in helping fundraisers feel more confident, aligned, and supported. Learn more@donorperfect.com Mallory.

Speaker B: I actually had something on my, uh, phone for a long time of like, every month, like, check in with yourself. How are you doing? What self talk are you doing? Are you judging yourself? What are you saying inside? And that's really, for me, at the end of the day, that's what I realized that I was doing a lot of self talk, that imposter syndrome, and judging every kind of step I made, especially at work and fundraising. Like, we all have really important and stressful jobs. Like organizations are relying on us for revenue and to support the mission and the work that we're doing in our communities. And that's a privilege and also a, you know, just. It is what it is.

Speaker A: Welcome, everyone. I am so excited to be here today with Dawn Wenzel. Dawn, welcome to what? The fundraising.

Speaker B: Thanks so much for having me. This is wonderful to be here.

Speaker A: I'm so excited for this conversation. Let's just start with you sharing with everybody a little bit about you and what brings you here today and. And then we'll dive in.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I have been, uh, in the fundraising sector for more than 15 years now. Um, I actually started my career as an educator. I taught elementary school and middle school for a number of years. And I often share with people that I burned out. And I was looking for another way to continue to serve the communities that I was in, in. And I found nonprofits and like most people my age, fell into fundraising. I sat next to the fundraising department and I kind of learned from there. And so I've worked at, um, small, medium, large institutions now, spanning my career, um, focusing on events, individual giving, foundations, done a little bit of everything. I'm the director of development at Hope Street Group, which is a national, uh, nonprofit. And Mal, you and I connected because I have experienced on and off chronic pain for, I would say, the majority of my career, not just in fundraising, but in teaching. And it's been quite the journey. And, uh, you and I have connected around some of the similar backgrounds we have, and also how, I think a lot of people aren't aware how it impacts us. And so I'm excited to share a little bit more about my journey and how that connects to fundraising.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm trying to remember even I think, was it at that dinner where you said John Sarno's name for the first time. And so, yeah, and my mouth was just agate in terms of my own experience with chronic pain and burnout. And I had had. For folks who haven't heard this story, I was fundraising, I was leading an organization, really struggling, ended up developing chronic pain. Somebody recommended this book called how to heal your back. And I had actually been in a car accident, so I had assumed that the pain was from this car accident had sort of, like, dislodged something in my back. And so I kept, like, trying to deal with it through, you know, physical therapy. And I was basically bedridden, um, at one point. And somebody recommended this book by John Sarno's called how to heal your back. And it's essentially about the brain body connection and the fact that our brain develops these pathways where it senses threat. And then sort of like, I'm oversimplifying, but, like, locks up and creates the pain to protect us from further injury. But it doesn't know how to sense actual threat versus something that feels somewhat like when you first maybe got hurt. And so the book totally changed my life. It cured my back pain. There's actually an app called curable, which is based on his research that I've used throughout the next 10, 15, 20 years anytime I have pain. And so when hearing that your journey like that you found that book that you had started to explore the connection between your brain and your body and this work that is in our brain and body, I was like, oh, my gosh, we have to talk about this. So tell everybody a little bit about your story and what that learning journey has looked like for you.

Speaker B: Yeah. So back in 2018, I started at a new organization, um, director of development. And I had to go into my, you know, new boss's office. We were planning on going on an airplane, you know, taking a trip to Boise, Idaho. Our trip. Max and I had to go in and explain to him, like, listen, like, I don't know if I can even sit in a seat for 45 minutes. I might be in a lot of pain on this trip. And it didn't feel right. I was like, this is crazy. Like, I'm. I'm in my 30s. Like, why. Why am I having all this back pain? And this wasn't the first time I had had back pain.

Speaker A: Um, I'm.

Speaker B: So. My PCP at the time recommended that I go see a specialist. So I went and saw the specialist. You know, he does some scans. I'm kind of anticipating the Worst, I'm like, okay, it's gonna be surgery. Like, there's something obviously wrong with me. And instead of going that route, he started asking me questions about, well, what's going on in your life? What are you going through? Like, you have, you know, like, is it stressful? And it reminded me. I had a flashback to when I was experiencing anxiety as a teacher. I had gone to the er. Um, at the time, I was having a panic attack, but I didn't feel like I was. I didn't. I didn't know what a panic attack was. And I kind of dismissed the doctor at that time. And so I just got all the. All of a sudden, these connections of, like, oh, maybe my back pain is connected. And so as I'm thinking this, he says, I really think you should read this book. And this is the John Char notebook. And, uh, to your point, like, it changed my life. I was like, oh, this is all connected. I went through years of being able to manage my. My back pain.

Speaker A: I.

Speaker B: You know, whenever it occurred, I was like, oh, what's going on in my life? Oh, maybe somebody, you know, close to me passed away. Or I had this stressful event at work. Like, I was able to miss the triggers and stressors that were coming, or if I had ignored them, I wasn't surprised when all of a sudden I had to be in bed for a couple days, and I was journaling like crazy and trying to get my. All my feelings and thoughts out. Um, so that was really helpful. And I think where then my journey changed was recently over the past few years. What that book talks about is it's not just back pain. I mean, anxiety can show up in many different ways in your body. And your brain is so smart, it will move where you. How and where you feel the pain. And that's exactly what happened to me. So, uh, a few years ago, all of a sudden, I started getting tremors in my face, and I went to Doctors, got the MRIs again, and once again realized it's stress. It's what's going on in your life. And there was a bunch of stressors going at the time, and I had to kind of switch up what I was doing. I found that I wasn't, uh, doing enough reflection and work. And so I don't know if you're familiar, but there's another person who's in this space who's been, um, kind of trained, I think, by maybe John's daughter, Nicole Sachs. And she talks about this connection, mind and body connection as well. And so I found her framework, I found this other framework called positive Intelligence that really gets into. I think this is really important for fundraisers to understand. And I think it ties to practice, like what you've created, Mallory, around, you know, all the practice and all the things, like, you know what to do and you still can't do it. And it's kind of like looking into yourself and going, why can't I pick up the phone and make that thank you call, which I've done a bajillion times? Or why can't. Why am I having anxiety about this? And just reflecting a little bit more around what is really, like, what is it? Self talk? Are you judging yourself? Like, what is it? And it's a constant learning, um, which I love. I'm a lifelong learner, so I'm fascinated by this. And so when you were sharing your journey and I've talked to others, I think it's fascinating how the mind, um, really has probably more power over our actions than we realize. And especially as fundraisers where we are people pleasers, we are, um, judging ourselves constantly. Like, how did that go? Um, we want to control the situation. We want this person to donate and support our cause. And those are all things internally that we have to deal with that impact our roles.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think what's so important about all of this is that. Or something I've appreciated, as you and I have talked about this is I feel like we try to compartmentalize some of these things and so we're like, oh, well, I'm not going to talk about my body at work, but like, your body is at work. Like, it's, it's, it's. With you. I.

Speaker B: A couple years ago I was having, you know, these tremors on my face and we thought it was tmj, but it was like a lot of like, uh, it was more like I was aware of it, but no one else was aware. This is very similar to like back pain. No one else realizes your back pain. And I told my manager at the time, I was like, you know, my eye just keeps twitching. Honestly, like, I can't do that. Like, I just feel very self conscious and I'm not in a good place. And it was, I let it start to impact my work and it felt weird. But I also had a, uh, great relationship with my manager where I felt comfortable telling her that too. Like, I can't do this right now. I know I can do it. You know, I can do it. But I need to step back for a second here. Kind of address this personally, why I'm feeling this way.

Speaker A: And, like, as somebody who's dealt with TMJ and I mean, and all these things, Right. Are connected to, like. And the, uh, I always tell people, like, the eye twitching, I'm like, okay, that's a sign of, like, dysregulation. And so it's actually, it's not just, like, rub under your eye and make it go away. It's like, what's causing that in the first place. Let's go there and sort of and try to understand a little bit more so that we can address the root issue. Because whatever that root issue is is impacting our work in way more ways than our eye twitching. Right. And so talk to me about that and just sort of like, what you've learned about how, like, taking care of your body or this awareness around your body, like, leads you to be able to be more embodied and present when it matters in terms of your fundraising also.

Speaker B: Absolutely. I think there was a period where I think we kind of all go through all the phases where when it starts happening, you're scared. You don't understand what's going on. You know, I definitely had moments of, like, freaking out, like, is this permanent? Like, how am I going to change this? And kind of going through that and realizing, to your point, like, I have to look deeper, I have to reflect on why is this happening. And for me, there was some work stress for sure, but there was a lot going on in my personal life at the time that I couldn't control or I wasn't ready to deal with. And so, uh, you have to make time. And I think for me personally, it was journaling, really sitting down and journaling 20 minutes a day, even when I didn't want to. And that's what works for me. I always share. I'm like, for others, it's meditation, it's working out. And I think I've done all those things as well. But I always know, like, when I say stop journaling, I know, like, I'm, um, kind of like, running the risk of like, some sort of maybe like, anxiety coming back and showing up physically, and you have to prioritize it. I actually had something on my, uh, phone for a long time of, like, every month, like, check in with yourself. How are you doing? What self talk are you doing? Are you judging yourself? What are you saying inside? And that's really, for me, at the end of the day, that's when I realized that I was doing a lot of self talk. That imposter Syndrome and judging every kind of step I made, especially at work and fundraising. Like, we all have really important and stressful jobs. Like, organizations are relying on us for revenue and to support the mission and the work that we're doing in our communities. And that's a privilege and also a, you know, just. It is what it is. And so for me, I have to take the time, either in the role or outside the role, to make sure that I can be the best I am. And it's not that I think there for some, it might feel like, well, maybe, am I in the right role? Maybe fundraising isn't for me. And for me, that wasn't it. I'm like, no, this is definitely where I need to be. I have the tools, I have the resources, I have the experience is really comes down to what am I telling myself before I walk into a room or I pick up the phone? Like, we'll call it an irrational fear of, uh, happening. So I hope that answers your question.

Speaker A: Yeah, it definitely does. And I think it's so interesting because there's, like, the cognitive awareness sometimes around, like, okay, what are the loops or the sentences or the way that I'm talking to myself? And sometimes I'll notice that first. Sometimes, though, I'll notice my body first. And then I get curious around, like, okay, what's behind that? And whenever I'm talking to folks, I'm like, you know, the very first thing is just awareness. Like, starting to have awareness. And you're not actually probably going to have awareness in the exact moment that it's happening to start. You're going to have awareness like, the next day or. And you're going to be like, oh, man, like, what was happening then, right? And then slowly, as you start to build that awareness and, like, celebrate that, you even notice that in the first place. Or, uh, instead of beating yourself up for, like, oh, my gosh, how could I get there again? I remember with, like, my chronic pain journey how important it was to, like, every time I would have a really bad day to just be like, that's okay. This is part of the learning journey. As opposed to, like, I can't believe you let it get this bad again. Right? Because just that whole process and that awareness, then slowly we start to be able to bring it closer and closer to the moment of the stimuli. Hey, I want to tell you about a podcast I genuinely love, the small nonprofit podcast. It's hosted by the incredible Maria Rio, and it speaks directly to the realities so many of us are living inside every day. Maria Tell us about your show.

Speaker C: Hi, I'm your host, Maria Rio. I moved to Canada as a refugee, use charitable services myself, and have been fundraising for over a decade. I love exploring ways our sector can grow, change, and make the world more equitable. The small nonprofit podcast is where we do just that. I believe small nonprofits are where the most transformative work happens. But we've been set up to fail by systems that accept expect us to do more with less. Every week, I sit down with leaders, fundraisers, and change makers who are doing things differently. They're building sustainable funding without compromising their values, creating power instead of dependence and pushing back on the broken systems we've all inherited. You'll walk away with actionable strategies you can use, not just inspiration. So if you're ready to stop scrambling and start building something that lasts, you're in the right place. Please, let's get into it.

Speaker A: If you're leading or fundraising at a small nonprofit and you're craving work that feels aligned, sustainable, and human, go listen to the small nonprofit podcast. Search the small nonprofit podcast on Spotify or Apple Podcasts to listen.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love what you just said about celebrating like that. You are aware that is what the positive intelligence framework really gets is about is around. Okay, so we all judge ourselves. That's normal. That's human condition. You can't change that. You can lessen it, though. And the way you lessen that is by celebrating like, oh, I caught myself. Ah, uh, there I am again. Like, I did it again. And then you realize, like, oh, this is normal. This is not a big deal. I can handle this. And if you realize it later on. So for me, fundraising events, I was like, task and go getter. Awesome. Um, did a great job at the event. Like, super, super successful. And then the next two days, I'd be like, flat on my back on the floor.

Speaker A: I understand.

Speaker B: I didn't lift anything heavy. I didn't do anything physical. I didn't tweak anything at the gym. This is totally because my body, like, compartmentalize. I can get through it all. And then afterwards, I'm done. I'm out of commission. And so that is where becoming aware of being able maybe do some of the work beforehand to lessen that and then also not to judge myself if it does happen afterwards, it's like, okay, this is how I'm gonna deal with it, and that's okay. And, uh, we'll keep learning, we'll keep growing, we'll keep figuring out maybe it's only one day in bed. Rather than two days in bed, you know, like, celebrate those wins.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm curious. I feel like one of the reasons why sometimes folks, like, don't wanna open this can of worms or like, don't wanna get curious maybe about why they, in certain ways it feels, feels easier to say, like it did for me to be like, oh, yeah, this is happening because of this car accident, right? It was like this very like, cause effect simple. Like I didn't have to like explore anything or open old wounds or come face to face with maybe some of my problematic condition tendencies or, you know, all these different things. And so I feel like sometimes, either consciously or subconsciously, people are afraid to like, bring this awareness and like, get curious about this. I'm wondering for you maybe like, what was that tipping point where you were where that sort of invited you? Or for me it was like, this is rock bottom. If you don't look at something else, like, you're in bed for the rest of your life. So like, you know, like, it can't get worse. And honestly, like I always say when people tell me like they're at a rock bottom moment, I'm like, you know, what is so great about a rock bottom moment? Like, the only place you can go is up. Uh, but like, for you, tell me about that part of the journey.

Speaker B: I mean, I got tired and frustrated and angry at myself. Like, I was just like, there's got to be a better way. Like, this just cannot be it. Like, and especially I've gone doing the massages, the cupping, the physical therapy, all the vitamins. Like, I was just like, if nothing is working, then, uh, what's left? And it really is then your, your brain, your mental health, your internal self talk. It is all of those things. And though could be it is, it can be scary to dive into that. I found once again, like a framework for that worked for me was this like type of journaling where you get out a notebook or whatever it might be your laptop, and you write down every single crazy thought that you have. Just go for it, just say everything. And then you get to delete it or rip it up or whatever, burn it, whatever makes you feel good. I'd be like, okay, I got all of that out. We need like a way to release some of the feelings, um, that we have. And especially for those who may done therapy or are comfortable with that, like, I find that sometimes you can still hold yourself back in those settings. And having done therapy for a couple years, I felt like I got to a certain point, but I Knew that I was holding back. And so I had to find other ways then to explore some of those. I, um, said I just wasn't comfortable literally saying out loud. And that was, for me though, that was the tipping point. Like, I was just like, I don't want to go through life this way. And I wasn't concerned about being in bed all the time. I was like, I don't want to plan my life around like, oh, well, I have back pain and I can't go on this vacation or I have to. Like, it was, it was starting to impact me. Like, oh, I can't go camping this weekend because my back is really hurting me. Like it was starting to impact how I was living my life in small ways. And I was just like, this, this could go sideways pretty quickly.

Speaker A: Yeah, that was true for me too. Like, I remember like having this moment of being like, you get one life. Like, you get one life. Like, is this how you want to spend it? And how can something be, uh, not worse than this, but like, how could it get, you know, like this exploration is only gonna go get better or stay the same, but you know, the opportunity for it to be better is so great because this is so hard. And I think like, that is not that I want people to get to that kind of like the low point I was in, in that moment. But I also, I do feel like, you know, whether you're talking about big things or small things, like, we get one life and it's like we, we have more agency than I think we often give ourselves credit for. And the other thing, I'm just going to kind of like double click on this and I'm curious what your experience is like here. Any other advice you have on this. But I just think like the biggest thing that changed my entire journey was saying to myself or like committing to myself that I was gonna have my own back. And um, that didn't mean that I was never gonna criticize myself again or that I don't have my own like self doubt days where I catch myself. But like there was something. And part of this was because I ended up huge relationship in my life. And that unraveled a lot of other relationships. And so a lot of like people in my life because of this. And, and this is after a life of people pleasing, right? Of like trying to do literally everything I could to never have a human mad at me. And now I had angered all of the people I loved the most. I had lost so many of the people I loved the most. And I was like, okay, like, I'm alone and like I'm the only friend I've got. And so, like, how do I want to spend this time? Do I want to treat, be mean to myself like everybody? Do I want to be mad at myself? Do I want to hate myself? Do I want to beat myself up or do I want to forgive myself and have my own back and say, like, I'm imperfect and I make mistakes, but, uh, like, I'm still going to have my own back. And that relationship with myself that I built during that time, I think that's what's given me the strength over the years to like, look at the hard things. Because I know that like, even if I feel ashamed of something I did or embarrassed about something I did, like, I'll take accountability and I will like, have my own back to learn and grow from it.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. For me, I kind of had to change my mindset around. Like if, if I have this imposter syndrome or I'm not perfect, look around and go, wait, no one's perfect. We're all humans. Like, we all are making mistakes all the time. Why am I beating myself up for something I think I can or can't do, or I made this mistake, or. And why am I judging other people? Why am I judging their mistakes or the way they answered my email? I think it is a recent mindset shift for me of like, being more curious. You know, I worked with a lot of different communities and populations and being just curious about the human condition. Like, how did you get here? Like, I went for a beach walk a few weeks ago and it was a Wednesday morning. I had taken the day as a personal day off and there's a bunch of other people walking around the beach as well on Wednesday at like 9am and I was just looking around, like, how did we all get here? Like, why are we all walking on the beach right now? Like on a Wednesday when I'm assuming some of us should be working, like, what is, like having that curiosity? And that's what I feel like for me, uh, that has helped me a lot. When I then start to experience I'm pain, I get curious about it and I go, why do I have that tick? Why do I have that twinge? What are the things maybe that I have ignored? Or do I have a new blind spot? Because I think for me, having seen that my body will move the pain. I have to be curious because, uh, I, uh, expect five to ten years, like, I'll get pain in some other way. You know, so I, for me, I'm like, I just have to continue that. I think it's a lifelong journey for myself and I want others to know that there's communities out there. If you're experiencing something like this, like, find your community. There are lots of wonderful people in this space that are, I think, all talking very similar in ways, but they have very different techniques of how to approach it. And I'm a. There isn't just one way like you and I are talking about, like, this worked for us. And I'm like, yeah, and there are so many other ways that people should explore. But I think that curiosity, you have to be curious about why you're thinking this way, what's happening to you. Curiosity, I feel like, is a buzzword nowadays, uh, especially with the AI in our world. But it really is, it starts with ourselves. Like, we have to be curious about ourselves and why are we the way we are, why are we reacting the way we are? And is there what's under that?

Speaker A: Yeah. You know, it's interesting, I recorded something that I haven't posted yet today about how we misunderstand confidence. And we think that confidence is about certainty, but confidence is actually about curiosity. Because we think like when we see somebody certain in something, we're like, oh, they're confident. But certainty is a protection mechanism.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Like this binary way of thinking. Whereas curiosity. Exactly. Like what you're saying is open. And yes, maybe it's a buzzword, but it needs to be a buzz, like skill and it's not.

Speaker C: So.

Speaker A: Yes, but like, keep using, keep using the word and tell people so, uh, yeah, I'm so, so, so with you there. And I so appreciate your willingness to share this journey because I think there's so many. We're seeing growing bodies of like, of um, content, I guess, and research around the different ways that our stress in work and in life shows up in autoimmune diseases and chronic pain and all these different things. And I know because of my work I'm constantly exposed to that, but I think for a lot of people it's sort of a new concept. And so I really, really appreciate you being willing to share your journey with everybody.

Speaker B: Absolutely. I just think it's so important and I want people to know that they're not alone. I think I felt pretty lonely in the beginning and that people kind of were like, what are you talking about? And now that I have been more open, more people are willing to listen and hear and I think, uh, kind of self reflect on what's going on with them and experience any of this maybe on a very small scale. So thank you for, uh, giving me the opportunity.

Speaker A: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for joining me and for everything you do for this sector. And I can't wait to talk again soon.

Speaker B: Thanks, Mallory.

Speaker C: You too.

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