People Leader Interview: Kara Scovitch, Sr Dir, Global Talent at The Knot Worldwide

Speaker A: Hi, welcome to venturescaler. I'm Sasha, three time head of people at venture backed startups.

Speaker B: And I'm Jake, three times ops and growth leader from the venture backed startup circuit as well. And we're here dropping all of our best tips on how to scale your startup.

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to venturescaler. Thank you so much for tuning in. We're here today with Jake and Kara, the senior director of global people operations at the Knot Worldwide. We're going to talk all things people and culture.

Speaker C: Thank you for having me.

Speaker A: Of uh, course. We're so excited to have you on the show.

Speaker C: Me too. I'm um, very excited to be here.

Speaker B: Very excited. Kara, awesome. So excited to have you here. Let's start off with uh, just give us the rundown, give us the TLDR version of your background, your journey through people ops and how you ended up in this high growth people ops world.

Speaker C: Yeah, so I um, didn't have a traditional path to get here I guess as a lot of people don't. But I actually started in public relations and for a restaurant group. So a corporate restaurant group is where I was. Um, and through the absence of hr, I was actually forced into many different people operations roles. So I ended up doing uh, recruiting, interviewing, performance management, you name it, and ended up actually doing a lot of operational function for the restaurant group as well. And so it was really through that, honestly like the absence of HR that I realized that that was kind of the path that I wanted to go. So um, the rest is history. Been with uh, high growth tech for the last 10 years, ever since then, um, and since then I've helped uh, through multiple M and A transactions, private equity investments, while now managing, managing an employee base in over 14 different countries. So um, back when I started with uh, the tech company, I was with Wedding Wire, I think we were, um, I was maybe the 100th employee and now we're like 1700 employees globally, 14 different countries. So through the different growth uh that happened with the company, I've managed all different functions under the HR umbrella and worn all of the hats. Um, I've managed the HR business partner team, the talent management professionals and overseen all the different business un from marketing, tech and prod sales really you name it. Um, so that is how I got here and what brought me here. Wow.

Speaker B: All the hats.

Speaker C: Been a ride. It's been a ride, but a good one. Nice.

Speaker A: I love it. Out of all of the functions, the sub functions within people operations that you managed, what has been your favorite or the thing that you derive the most joy from.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I have to say People Ops, because I'm, um, on this call, guys, right. But like, truly people operations, I mean, now that we're larger and I'm able to really focus and kind of spend most of my time there, I think about the team sort of in three pillars, if you will. So we've got benefits, so all things total rewards, compensation. We've got the infrastructure, so all systems, processes, policies, policies. Just like, how are we set up? What is our foundation? Right, As a, as a, as a business. And then we've got, um, the office experience. So this is for us really important because we are high growth. Right. So it's got the real estate arm, the office experience arm. We invested actually a lot into our office space to make it a really cool, um, in office culture. So Covid really threw us from the loop. But also under that bucket then is all things RTO and trying to plan how are we going to return to office? What do we look like in a post Covid? Or hopefully we'll be post Covid one day, but in a, you know, after Covid has hit, what are we going to look like following that? So, um, that is where I spend most of my time now. And I do think, uh, People Ops is probably my happiest place.

Speaker A: I love that returning to work has been something that's been top of mind for me. I mean, if you're able to share, how have you been thinking about return to work and what life for the not worldwide looks like for your team?

Speaker C: Yeah, we've thought a lot about it and I mean, you guys know, there's just not a playbook for this. So everybody is kind of figuring it out together. I've networked with a lot of different HR professionals, um, and just trying to get insight what everybody else is doing and talking internally, like, who do we want to be, how do we want to do this? Um, and so for us, I know a lot of organizations are really, um, embracing that remote culture first. And for us, we weren't totally committed to going all the way there. We really did value that in office culture. We feel like there's something to the collaboration. As I said, our office spaces are kind of awesome. We have a speakeasy, we have a hair salon in our office that's free for employees to use. We've got all kinds of stuff. So, um, we really wanted to still foster that in office. So for us, we're thinking about a hybrid model where we're flexible with employees so people won't have to come into the office every single day. It'll really vary by um department and by the team that you're on. And it'll be based around criteria like when are we having big team meetings that folks need to be in office for or what is the cross functional collaboration that needs to happen. Like if team A is in office on Tuesday, do we also need team B to be in office on Tuesday? So that's kind of how we're thinking through it. We're really partnering with business leaders and making sure we're still giving them flexibility and autonomy to run their orgs the way that they want to. But overall we have communicated to employees that we're going to be moving towards a hybrid model when we feel like it's safe, um, to go back. And then in the interim, because we're hoping that that'll happen like later this year. Right. Like Q3, Q4. But then in the meantime we've gone through the motions of starting to unlock our offices for the people who voluntarily just really want to go back now because it's so interesting and especially dealing with a large employee base. You've got so many people who are like, no way, I don't want to go back. But then you've got this whole group of people who are like beating down the door, like, get me out of my apartment. I need to people again, like, I need a quiet space, like let me back uh, in the office. So, um, it's interesting the different groups of people. So we have started that unlock of offices so that people who want to voluntarily, you know, go in and be in an office space now, they can, they can do that. So we're kind of like one by one unlocking offices, um, around the globe really so that we can let people come back in.

Speaker A: Wow, that's got to be a huge ordeal with 14 countries. Yes, that's a lot in offices too.

Speaker C: We've got offices. So we've got five in the US So that alone is a, um, lot to think through just because so many regulations are different state to state and the different like federal and even local guidance is drastically different all over. So we've got an office in Austin, New York, D.C. omaha and then Connecticut. And so we've got all of those different areas to think about in the US and then internationally we've got offices in China, India, uk, Ireland, Barcelona, thank God. Like we're all over the place. So we do have a, uh, lot of regulations that we are constantly trying to look at and monitor and Even the lockdowns in each country are so drastically different. I was just on the phone with our India team today and things have completely changed. Like, ah, two weeks ago they were kind of doing this voluntary unlock and people were wanting to come back in the office and now it's full lockdown again. Like you can't step outside there unless you are a healthcare worker. Essential personnel. But they're back on full lockdown again. So, um, it's really a lot to keep a pulse on and really having to stay agile and able to pivot through all of the changes. It's very interesting and it's definitely a lot to keep up with.

Speaker B: Wow. All right, let's, let's change gears. So like right at your 14 countries, like hundreds of employees. Let's wind the clock back.

Speaker C: Yep.

Speaker B: So what did the. When you joined, you said you're right around for, uh, wedding. Why you're right around employee number 100. What did the, like the people ops HR team look like?

Speaker C: Yes. So we had a director actually of HR who was part time, and then we had me and then we had a recruiter and it was the three of us, we were the mighty team back then who got everything done. So it was really interesting because that's where I kind of go into the like, just wearing all the hats. Like, we really, the three of us really did everything. Like, you name it. If it was an employee relations org, planning, hiring, like, we were doing all of it. So, um, definitely used to being the first kind of on the ground resource for the, for the people function as the team is getting established and built.

Speaker A: And then what does your team look like now that you're supporting 1700 employees?

Speaker C: Yeah, we've grown a ton. Um, and we have gone through, like I said, a lot of M and A activity too. So the teams have, we've gone through different iterations of the team and we've grown and we've changed. Um, but right now we are hanging in the 40s, I would say globally for the people function. And so the way that we have sort of structured ourselves now, um, is again, I'm like very visual. I like the pillar concept. So I'm just going to go back to that again. But, um, we've got a chro. And then under that we've got a talent acquisition arm, we've got a people operations arm which I talked a little bit about. We've got a DEI LND arm, uh, we have a communications arm, and then we've got an international kind of focus. Who's Helping bridge sort of all of these initiatives together. So across that 40 plus person team, that's how we have divided the work. And I think it is really interesting as you talk and go back to like when you're in a startup and you're at smaller people function like you don't have the resources, you don't have the budget to build out a big team like this. So I think it's really interesting to go back and think about the things that, you know, when you were smaller, you couldn't invest in, but you wish you would have, or you wish you would have done something differently or you wish you would have done something first. Um, so I think that that's always a reflection that I do and I think about that a lot.

Speaker A: I love that question.

Speaker B: Yeah, you brought it up. I want to hear, I want to double click into that.

Speaker C: Um, no, I think it goes back to really like again like my happy place in talking about this kind of like infrastructure and ops piece. I think about how fast companies grow and then after the fact, because you know, early on it's like higher, higher, higher, higher, higher. And that's the king, that's the most important thing. And then you get to a certain size and you're like, but wait, what about like, like, like what are our levels look like? What, like what does career progression look like for this people? These people? Like, if somebody gets promoted, what is that next step? What does the job look like? How are we training them for that? Do we have an LNT plan in place? Do we have a plan that we're communicating to people to make them feel engaged and like they have a track here and like they want to stay here. Um, and so I think that is a really common sort of mistake that you suddenly just like blow up and then you get to a certain size and you're like, wait. And then you're kind of retroactively trying to fit, you know, in the structure that, you know, if you had spent a little bit more time on, on it in the beginning, things would be running a little bit smoother once you get to a bigger size. So I think that that's um, something that, like a big one to think about. If, if you're in that position that you're just starting out and you're kind of able to like build this from the ground up. Really thinking about building that foundation first.

Speaker B: So I'm curious. So like, I've been from it, I've been in that from like an operations standpoint of like, we just need, we need to hire like fast. Like we're like way behind on where we need to be. Sasha, she's been through this like a number of times in that headspace where it's just like, just higher, higher, higher. Uh, but knowing that you'd like to go back and maybe change some things about like career progression and leveling and those kinds of things.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like realistically, if you were actually back there with like, you know, how crazy things were with hiring, what would you like to do real, like, you know, what could you feasibly do that would have set you up for success moving forward?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think really thinking about that leveling piece is one. So I think really developing that uh, structure and saying like, okay, we're hiring these people, we want to keep them here, we want to keep them engaged, we want to keep them committed, we're bringing them in the door and we've got all the selling points of being a startup, but like a year from now, what's going to keep them here? Two years from now, what's going to keep them here? And so I really think building that framework is just so important because even as the business needs continue to arise and we're going through the hire, hire, hire phase, what are we hiring? Like, do we need a manager or do we need a senior manager? Or do we actually need like a director for this or do we need a senior director for this? Like what level of work are we trying to achieve and accomplish? What is the scope and the level of impact and discretion and independent judgment? Like, what are we actually hiring for? And so I think mapping out that structure from the get go of like, this is what the. Org looks like and being able to say, okay, this is the actual competencies and skill set and scope that I'm looking for. I think it would help, you know, with recruiting initiatives. I think it would help with those career development conversations later on. I think it really helps just put that framework in place so that you know you're building the right team.

Speaker B: Love that.

Speaker A: Double tap that as well. Um, that's something that we've invested in really heavily at Cranial because I have seen the people that accrue and the impact it can have on the organization and the retention of your team because they don't feel like they have a path. And even if you're compensating well and you have great benefits for employees that join a high growth startup, they're typically very ambitious and they want to see that they can grow at your organization. And if you don't have a path for them to grow, they're going to look elsewhere and they're going to find better compensation in a more senior role somewhere else.

Speaker C: Yeah, totally. I totally agree. I think it's, it's just so important to think about early on. Um, and again I think it's not instead of right like it's not like we can't focus on hiring because we have to do this. I really think it's like uh, with like a together it should be paired and it should be part of that actual strategy. When you're coming up with those open recs and figuring out what do you want the team to look like, I think the two really go hand in hand.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Do you think that a lot of early stage people ops folks would get pushed back m from their CEO or other senior leaders against investing in some of those things too early or when they're in the 50 to 150 mark?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think that that is the important role that you kind of have in this people ops function, especially if you are there in the early stages, is to be able to have that level of influence and be able to explain to your executive team like the value and looking at not just the short term but the longer term goals and being able to explain like this is the lever we can turn now and you know, we don't. It doesn't have to be perfect. It's something we can continue to evolve and grow on and adapt over time. But if we get it in place now, here's how it's going to actually help us later. Especially because we are hyper growth. Like when are we going to slow down? We're not going to have time to do it this year, but we probably won't have time to do it next year or next year or next year. Right. So it's like we, then we're going to be in a worse position where we really have to like stop the show and figure this out and then retroactively fit it in. Whereas if we just invest, you know, some time in this now, we can set ourselves up for success for the future. So I think it really is just being able to kind of articulate map that plan and strategy and get that buy in from stakeholders. Um, I think that would be my recommendation for how to get them there is to just really be able to showcase the value.

Speaker B: So when you're partnering with your CEO leadership team and I'm thinking again back to like the earlier days, um, at that stage, what do you find is the number one priority and the problem that they want their people team to solve.

Speaker C: Yes. Um, so I think the hiring piece, which we've already talked about, so I don't need to go there. Um, but I think after that it's just really wanting these like high performing teams, like, how can we be productive? How can we keep the teams performing, how can we keep them engaged? Um, and I really think that while it often comes to the people team, that's really a leadership thing. Right. And so I think that it kind of goes back to just in the beginning. You're high growth and you're, you're, you're moving so fast. What I've seen happen a lot of, a lot of times is we've got these really strong like individual contributors, right? And they're just like killing it. They're so good, they're great at their job, they're solid. And so we promote them, but when we promote them because we don't have mapped out levels. So here's how you could grow as an individual contributor. Here's how you could grow as a manager. Oftentimes that promotion just automatically plops them straight into a people manager role. And it's often without training, it's often without expectations. It's not us going in and saying like, here's what it really means to be a people manager, to operate as a people manager in this organization. And I think the result of that is you get a lot of really junior folks leading your team. And so I think that building that leadership muscle, um, is something that is important, but I think it goes back to that kind of setting that framework and that foundation and making sure we're actually putting the right people with the right competencies and the right roles. And if we're not, then it goes into another thing we can spiral into. Right, which is that learning and development piece. So if we're going to promote from within, that's great, but we have to be able to invest in those people and set them up for success. We can't just assume, you know, you were a great software engineer, so I think you're going to be a great manager. It's not always necessarily true. Um, and sometimes they don't even want to be a people manager. Like if they had the option of like, oh, I realized I could still grow just being an individual contributor. Like a lot of times they would choose that. So that's the other thing I always talk about is like I would, um, I don't want people to be in a manager role if they don't want to be. It is a whole separate job function. Right. And you have to be really signed up for that and invested to run a successful team. So, um, kind of all goes all full circle there. I think

Speaker B: I want to, I want to ask a little bit more about this because I saw this happen at Uber and it was like, you know, I was, I was in it. Right? You have just a ton of young ambitious people doing a great job there for like, you know, a year, two years, you know, going on three. And it's like, where do I, how do I grow? And that's where I think Uber got into a bit of trouble is we just had so many first time managers getting promoted in those roles because you're growing so fast. Then there was the conflict of do you bring outside talent in?

Speaker C: Yeah. Right.

Speaker B: And then people that were there for those two or three years and that was like, that was their ladder. All of a sudden someone got slotted above and there was like a little bit of discontent. So I'm curious how like whenever you started to address that in like your stage of growth, like, how did you start to address that? Was that with uh, the leveling and IC tracks with like L and D and training, how did you start to address that? So I imagine it happens almost at every high growth company in some phase.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's a blend of kind of all of the above. So I think if you can really map out the levels and the career paths and expand explaining and making that kind of like a common knowledge, common language, it's something we can all talk about. Um, it becomes actually a really effective tool when it comes to performance management as well. Um, and I don't mean performance management as in like pipping someone or something like that, but when you have these really ambitious individuals, it's like, promote me, promote me, promote me. I don't understand, why am I active and promoted? Why am I not getting quoted? So it's really helpful to be able to reference and say these are the competencies associated with the level that you're currently operating. Right. If we look up two levels, which is where you're wanting to be, there's clearly a gap here. And there's things that you have to do and achieve and work on to be able to scale to get to that level. And so it becomes, uh, honestly a framework in those performance conversations where now that person feels like they actually have stepping stones. They know what they need to do, they know what they need to work on. It's not just this ambiguous. You're not ready for promotion or we're going to bring someone in from the outside. Like it's actually, you're able to highlight and showcase the deltas and the differences. And for those really, um, ambitious individuals, I've always found it's just more motivating for them because then they know what they need to work on. So I, um, think that that's something that works really well and I think just over communication with the team and explaining exactly, like what we're bringing on and why, like, why do we feel like we need this role? Why do we feel like we need operating here? What outside knowledge are we looking to bring into the org? And what about, you know, this person's profile is like so important. It's a skill we don't have. It's a missing, a missing piece of the puzzle. Um, I think just being overly communicative about that is really important to the team too.

Speaker B: I'd be a heart eye emoji right now. Like love that, all of that. That's so great.

Speaker A: Yeah. I think the communication piece is so pivotal not only for the performance conversations, but everything in early stage startups. I feel like the communication breakdown happens like 40, 50, 60 employees. When everyone stops being just like your best friends. You actually start hiring people externally. Um, and I know so many leaders who are like, we fired someone, we don't want anyone to know. We're like quietly slipping them out in the dead of the night and then all of these rumors start swirling. Whereas if you address it directly, like, here's what happened, here's why we made the decision, here's why you're all still here, you're performing well, we're having real time conversations and just managing some of that. And I've seen such a dramatic difference in organizational cultures with those that are really upfront and over communicate versus those that are like, ah, that's stressful and dramatic, or that's a hard conversation, I don't want to deal with it.

Speaker C: Totally agree. I mean, especially even on the exit front, like not to go down that path. But I mean, it's scary and it's disruptive when somebody leaves and especially when it's a highly visible person. And I think, um, as much as employees care about each other, and they do, you can't help but have that automatic what about me? And that's what people want to know. What does it mean for me? Is my job secure? Am I next? Is there more? And so I think if you can communicate and really be able to address that question of yes, this happened. And here's like, the business reason why. But here's, let's, uh, future focus. Like, let's talk about this team. This is the team who's going to achieve these things. Here's our objectives, here's why we're structured that way. Here's why we're going to make it work. And I think just really trying to put people's mind at ease. I mean, yeah, I would totally agree. I think the communication piece is just huge.

Speaker A: Absolutely. For the performance methodology and the career pathing and having those conversations, what cadence are you having those conversations? And very tactically, like, what form does that take? Or do you have a Google Doc with these ladders? Is it visible to everyone? How does that operationally work?

Speaker C: Yep. Well, I want to say, first of all, if a company doesn't have the funds to invest in like, a fancy software, you don't need it. The most important thing and where the power is is having the conversation. So I think with a system or without, I would always recommend that an organization try to get to a place where you are implementing this culture of continuous feedback. Um, because so for us, actually, one of the initiatives that I led is we actually got rid of the annual performance review. We stopped doing it altogether because we were like, it's just not working. Like, managers dread it, employees dread it. Um, I will never forget one time I talked to a software engineer and I was like, hey, when's the last time, like, you got feedback from your manager? And they were like, last year in the performance review. And I'm like, no, like, not working can't happen. Like, hurts my heart. But, but it's true. That's happening. And so I think that's where we were just really, like, we need to reevaluate this. Like, it's just not, not working for us. And so, um, that's when we started doing a lot of training on giving feedback, receiving feedback, learning how to make it a less scary thing. It doesn't have to be personal, it doesn't have to be an attack. Like, feedback is feedback. And there are a million, like, models and frameworks, um, that can accompany that. There's a really simple model called Star. I don't know if you guys have heard of it, but it's just situation, task, right, action and result. And that's a really easy framework for people to remember that. We tried to use that to depersonalize a little bit and give people, like, a formulaic approach to giving feedback so that it didn't feel so scary. And then we changed up the cadence. So we said we wanted, um, employees and managers to have one on ones on a regular cadence, whatever that meant for you. So weekly, um, you know, bi weekly, monthly, at the very least, you have to do it quarterly. And so for us, we do use a system, it's called reflective. But it's basically. I mean there are other alternatives out there and there are other features of reflective for why we use that over like a Google Doc. But you could use a Google Doc if you didn't have anything else. And so for us, we use the quarterly check in to really be a developmental focus conversation. We intentionally try to not let it just be a status update, um, and not just a normal like check in the box on where you are and your goals, but to talk about like further career development. Like, what are your career goals? Where do you want to be in the future? Like, I'm here as your manager, like manage up. What do you need from me? Like, what are roadblocks I need to move from you? What are you not getting that you might need from me? Um, and a very pointed, like, where do I stand in terms of my performance right now? Because we just didn't want that to be a surprise for anyone. Like, if the promotion cycle is coming up and you're not up for promotion, that shouldn't be the first time you're hearing about that. Um, and so for us, quarterly is what we ended up implementing. Um, and like I said, we encourage more frequent one on ones than that. But at the very least, quarterly cadence is what we sort of like mandate from the company level.

Speaker A: I love that. How have you managed the relationship between performance and growth, conversations and compensation?

Speaker C: Yeah. Um, so we try to pair the two closely, I would say. Um, and for us, like, we try to make everything a holistic part of our, um, sort of merit and promotion process whenever we go through that. So we do, um, different talent review exercises with our leadership team. Um, so while we're not doing a performance review with a rating, we are looking at a typical talent review where we're looking at performance, we're looking at potential, we're trying to map out and really see, okay, if we look at like an org chart, where is our talent? Where is it lying? Like, how do things look at the leadership level? How do things look a couple levels down? Um, and so we kind of use those as data points all coming in. Whenever we go through, um, you know, conversations about merit promotion, performance is always, um, a big factor. And we actually do lead and tell, um, Our employees and our managers pretty openly that we pay for performance. Performance like that's our philosophy. That's, that's what we want to see of employees. And we're not, I think there's nothing like more demotivating than watching like a really poor performer and seeing them continue to get like rewarded and promoted. Like there's nothing worse for high performers than to see that happen. So we're pretty transparent about the fact that we pay for performance. That's what we value. Um, and that's how we make decisions.

Speaker A: I love that that's what we have too. We don't care at all about tenure. Like you could have been with us two years and never received a performance increase, what we call a raise, because we value performance so highly. But on the flip side, you could get an increase every six months if you were exceeding what your scorecard dictated your role scope was.

Speaker C: Mhm. Exactly.

Speaker A: Again, like hiring at this stage you have to hire very ambitious people and making sure, even if you don't have a super formal career path, making sure they can very tangibly feel like they are performing well and they're being rewarded for that work.

Speaker C: Yes, yes. The reward and the recognition I think is super, super.

Speaker A: Sorry for monopolizing the conversation, Jake.

Speaker B: No, no, I was, I was taking over before too. I was super curious about all the things she's talking about. Um, all right, let's, let's switch gears. So for a, for a head of people at like a high growth company, like right when you know they're getting started, maybe it's like the first hire or like that, you know, the first like head of type of hire. M. Um, what, like what skills does that person need to have to be successful in the role?

Speaker C: Yeah, I would say um, for that people, head of people person, I really would say two of the biggest things are empathy and eq. I think emotional intelligence is just huge because of the variety of people that you are going to have to interact with. So not just the entire employee base, especially early on because all of those random things that come up, employee relations issues, whatever it is probably coming your way. But then additionally you've got this leadership team, executive team, stakeholders who you are trying to be that person driving the influence and the impact and making them see the value and truly being a partner, partner to them into their business. And to be able to do that you have to be able to understand their business and their drivers and their needs. And so you know what motivates the head of product is not going to be the Same thing, most likely, that motivates the head of finance. And so I think just having that emotional intelligence and really being able to, like, switch gears, know your audience, know who you're talking, to, be able to kind of dive in and talk about their business and how the things they. That, you know, the initiatives that you're driving are going to directly be able to help positively influence their business goals. I, um, think that's probably one of the most important, um, functions of the role.

Speaker A: How would you distinguish someone who is good as a head of people from someone who is great as a head of people?

Speaker B: Ooh, Good question, Sasha.

Speaker C: That's a good one. Okay. I have to say the word grit, and I say that because, um, I. Some of the most influential leaders I think I've ever worked with, and it's a way that I tried to try to lead myself, too, is I would never ask anybody to do something I wouldn't do myself. Like, I can hustle, I could grind. I could get in there and do whatever it is myself if I wanted to. I'm building a team. So obviously that's why I'm having a team do it. But I think just having a leader like that who is very, like, willing to get their hands dirty, willing to be hands on, I, uh, think it just adds another level of motivation for the team, because it's not like there's somebody 10 levels removed who doesn't understand what I do. Like, no, uh, this leader does understand what you do, and they value and they appreciate it, and they would get in there and do it themselves. So I think that is that differentiator when it's a motivational leader, but in a different way. It's like that hustle and that grit and that just, like, I understand what you do, and I can roll up my slee, like, get down and dirty with the team if I need to. Um, I think there's something about that, because I think it shows. Like, you need a. You need a leader who is strategic, of course, but I think so many people get hung up on being just strategic. Strategic. And I think it gets thrown out so much. Like, people forget what it even means. But an idea is just an idea. Like, you need people who can execute it. And so I think that leader who's able to understand the tactical components and to be able to really see both sides of it, I think that's what I mean by this, like, grit piece. It's like, they see the whole picture, and they make the team feel really valued for that.

Speaker A: I love that.

Speaker B: Yeah. All right, flip side, where do you see. And, uh, not just like heads of people, but just people in, like, People Ops folks. Where do you see them make mistakes? Where are the pitfalls? Where do you see folks struggle?

Speaker C: Yeah, um, I think that some of the areas where I see people struggle, um, is just falling into the trap of, uh, sort of not drawing the line, I guess I would say of being that advisor or the advocate to the business and falling into the trap of, like, just doing it for them. And so, like, what I mean by that is, um, you know, say you got this entry level manager and there's, um, an employee relations issue. We'll just say. And it's like, well, HR will just deal with that. And it's like, no, no, no, no. The manager will actually deal with that. And let me, like, it's like the saying, like, teach a man to fish. Right? And so I think that that's that differentiator of HR just doing it versus HR being like, nope, let me actually teach you how to do it and giving them the skills and helping develop the manager or the leader to be able to do it again in the future. So I think that's like an easy, A very easy trap to fall into. Especially in the beginning if you're just trying to like, make a good impression or show that you're supportive or show them that you can do this really hard thing that maybe they don't quite know how to do. Um, but I think that that's a slippery slope to get into. And I think, um, you know, as the business grows, it's just not something that's scalable. So I think that's a common pitfall that I see.

Speaker A: I love that. And I would extend that to, uh, every relationship that People Ops has within the organization. It's something that I tell my team all the time because they'll say, oh, I heard this is happening. And like, I don't want you in the middle of any of this. Like, your job is to help that employee feel confident and have the words to articulate how they're feeling to whoever they're having an issue with. Like, we're not the middleman. They need to be able to solve their own problems. And it kind of goes back to the direct feedback and the real time performance. Like, if you can't clearly articulate what's going on and depersonalize it, then it's really hard to have a real working relationships where you go through struggles, you overcome them, and you continue to be successful. So I think that is fabulous advice for someone in the people space.

Speaker C: I thank you. Yeah, I think it's just. It's something. I mean, uh, clearly, like, you've seen it too. It's just. I feel like it's a very common pitfall. So. Yeah, I think that's an important one.

Speaker A: Yeah, but it comes from a place of love. You just want to help people be successful.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker A: But it's definitely an easy trap to fall into.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker B: All right, let's, uh. I have a question about mental health. Kara. So how do you keep mental health a priority? I'm curious for you and your team, um, when you know you're giving 110% to building the company through high growth.

Speaker C: Yes, yes. Well, I will tell you personally, um, my secrets are my peloton, my wine, and my dogs. But it's not about me. Um, but no, I think in the business, seriously, I think that it goes back to that communication piece. So I think actively communicating to the business, to the employees, hey, mental health matters. This is something we actually value. This is something we're cognizant of. I mean, especially now with COVID and all the complications, people being home, people being isolated, like, it's just more prevalent than ever. Um, so I think leading with that message and making sure that it's, um, something that you're actually talking about as an organization is important. I also think leading by example, so actually taking some pto, taking some, like, time off to reset, recharge, and as a leader, encouraging the same of your team. So setting those expectations, like, hey, I want you to take a day. You just finished a big project. Why don't you reward yourself? Like, have a long weekend? I think, like, pushing that with your employees, especially now, because, you know, with everybody being home, I think people are just like, what's the point? Like, I can't go anywhere, I can't travel, so I'm not going to take any time. Um, and so I think leaders actually do have to step in and kind of nudge and encourage that. That's, um, something that I've seen. And then, you know, I think other ways to really just help prioritize. The, uh, mental wellness piece is, of course, as you are setting up benefit plans and developing your benefit strategy, that's something that can be negotiated into your package as wellness dollars that you can get from your broker. Sometimes you can get it from carriers. And so I think establishing and trying to see, can I get a mental wellness or wellness budget put in place as a part of our program, you can Apply that then to so many different things. So I think that's important. I think another important piece of your benefit set up is making sure that you get that employee assistance program in place, and it goes back to that communication, making sure you're actually marketing it, that people know what it is. They know what it can do for them, what resources are available, how do I contact them, all of that. I mean, even in response to some of the social unrest and some of the things that have been happening, we have been just blasting out, like, here's our eap. We know this is hard. We know people are struggling. Like, we're here in D.C. so when, uh, the Capitol riot happened earlier in the year, we had people just, I mean, scared. Like, people were really freaked out. And so we, um. That was something it was really great to be able to fall back on. So I think, um, really just making it a priority, making it part of your strategy, being overly communicative about it and making it a topic and leading by example. I think those are the best ways to really promote, um, and make sure that mental wellness is a priority. And it's a priority that's actually felt by the employees. Like, they believe that you are actually prioritizing it.

Speaker B: So many heart emojis right now. Love that.

Speaker A: I'm glad we've moved on from the JBiebs heart to the heart emoji. I feel like it's a classier, classier response.

Speaker B: Should we bring it back? Is that what you're saying?

Speaker A: Bring it back, Bring it back. The problem. It's, uh, fine.

Speaker C: I love it. I'll take the heart emoji, too. It's fine. It's good. Good.

Speaker A: You can get both. Uh, we're coming up in our last couple of minutes here, and we always like to close out with advice. So say someone who's early in their career within the people ops function, maybe stepping into their first role as a head of people. What advice would you give them to help them be the most successful version of themselves in that role?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think. Honestly, I think that networking and not feeling like you're alone is huge. And, uh, now you got me on the mental wellness kick, so now I'm there. But, like, all of us in the people profession are having to deal with this too. And it's hard, even for us. I mean, especially some of the things you see transpire. Like, some people are losing their jobs. Some people, like, there's a lot. Um, and so I think it's just really important to have that network and to you know, trust your instincts, trust your gut, but also have that network that you can bounce ideas off of and you can be like, hey, here's how I'm thinking about tackling this. Is this crazy? Have you seen something like this before? Um, I think it's just really important to have kind of that support group around you so that you always know you're not alone. Um, especially because if you are first one in the organization, you don't have, like a team behind you yet. Um, and if you're working with an executive team, and especially a new executive team, they might not even know what they don't know about working with the people function. And so some of the things that you bring forth, they might love. Other things, they might be like, whoa, what? And so I think it's always good for, um, you to just have a network. And that way you can really kind of like, gut check yourself and just feel really extra confident and informed when you go into those meetings and you're trying to influence.

Speaker A: I love that you're the second person we've had on the show in the last month or so that said that. I know that really resonates with me as someone who enjoys being the first head of people at a really early stage company. It's incredibly lonely and isolating, and you're dealing with a lot of really heavy topics sometimes. So for your own mental health, it's nice to have a sounding board. And then I think you raised a really great point about supporting a green leadership team. And then m not understanding the value of what you might be providing and being able to understand how to articulate it in a way that you can show that this is valuable and why this will help you.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I think it's really important. And like, when you got that network, it's something for sure. Someone else has been through that specific challenge or question or pushback or whatever it is you're running into. You will, nine times out of 10, find someone who's like, ah, uh, yes, I've dealt with that. Here's what I did. Here's how I got through it. Here's what's important. Don't do this. I did this. It didn't work. And so I think that that's just really valuable. Agreed.

Speaker A: Uh, well, Jake, any final questions before we wrap for the day?

Speaker B: No, that's. That's all I had. I think that's like, a great note to end on. Uh, Cara, this was. This is great. I got. I'm like, just jotting down some notes. I, uh, really love, like, you know, your insights into especially because you've been through, like, the journey. Right. So very insightful. I appreciate it.

Speaker C: Thank you so much. Thank you both for having me. This was really fun. So thank you.

Speaker A: Of course. Thank you for sharing all of your insights. Take care.

Speaker C: All right, guys, bye.

Speaker A: Hey, thanks for listening to venturescaler. If you're listening on a podcast platform, be sure to hit the subscribe button and leave us a review. We'd love to hear what you think. We also have a version on YouTube if you'd want to watch the show instead. And if you found the episode helpful, please share it with a friend, a family member, or anyone else that you think could benefit. You're also welcome to connect with us on LinkedIn. Thanks again for watching and we'll see you next time.