#70: Pitch with confidence - How to tell a story people remember | Talk with Kate Douskova - Pitch & Storytelling coach and former STRV product leader

Speaker A: Hey everyone. Welcome to the Upper sky podcast. My name is Ricardo Monegas and I will be your host on this podcast. We would like to share valuable knowledge, lessons learned and stories from entrepreneurs, investors and managers while running their businesses. We strive to ask, uh, the right questions and discover insight from our guests so you can apply them in your business and life right after each episode. Thanks for joining us and let's get started.

Speaker B: Hi everyone. Today we are talking with Kate Olkova. She's a, uh, peach and storytelling coach. One of her quotes in her LinkedIn is confidence isn't magic, is a, uh, skill and I teach it well. So we will talk about confidence and of course phishing as an important skill not only for fundraising but also for sales or even clarity and alignment within teams. And Kate has been leading product and innovation teams at STRV in the past, working with more M than 300 Apps clients worldwide. You have plenty of experience in communication. Kate, welcome to the podcast and how are you doing today?

Speaker C: Hi. Thank you for having me. Thank you for the introduction. Absolutely wonderful. I might get you for a couple of my other workshops just so you can come in and introduce me. Uh, I'm doing really well as you can see. Prague finally has a little bit of sun, which is lovely. I think everyone has missed it and I think spring is in the air. So it's a lovely day. Lovely day.

Speaker B: That's good. So yeah, I think I will create some kind of new job or new gig to have introductions for people, if that's even exists. I don't know, something like, um, do you know these DJs or in parties they introduce themselves or they say something.

Speaker C: Definitely, definitely. You know what, like we're always looking for career changes. So let's go.

Speaker B: Good, good. So, um, Kate, let's say, let's pin that about the DJ part or any introduction part, but let's chat about you and your story before we go into your current role as ah, a coach. So can you tell us a bit what brings you to, to work into coaching? Of course. As a first step, tell us a bit about your background before, like what did you do? I know I already introduced you, but I think a lot of the time is always good to hear from your perspective. What did you do, uh, and your experience?

Speaker C: How did I end up here? For sure. So I've had an incredible opportunity very early on to uh, you can hear the English accent, but to work in Canada where I studied and I got a kind of first couple of my jobs and I was introduced to a startup Scene very early I worked for a couple of startups. Um, I started on the, I would say businessy side of things and then very quickly as I was studying I realized that nobody would give me a manager job right, right out of school. So then I switched over to the, the tech side of things. So I actually graduated and I had a job as a QA and a tester. And I was a backend developer for a very short period of time, um, in an ancient technology but I loved it. And then through kind of time and opportunities I landed kind of somewhere in the middle where the sales and development part was too people oriented for me and not enough with the product. And then the developer side, I thought that was just a little bit too much in front of a computer and not enough kind of face interaction. And so I landed in the middle which was the product roles as a product manager. And it was incredible. M. I got to work with just a lot of talented people um, throughout this kind of journey. Um, of a few startups that I had worked with, we were lucky enough to um, exit a couple of times to talk with very closely with um, some VC firms, some really interesting investors and stuff. And so I kind of fell into this startup world. But eight years ago we made a decision um, to move so somewhere and uh, Prague was on the top of the list at the time STRV was, was hiring and so I, I applied and the rest is kind of history. And STRV was really unique in the sense where based in Prague, but clients absolutely globally. Um, you know, from Japan to California and kind of everything, everything in between. That was incredible. Just to see and work with people from different cultures, time zones, um, and everything like that. Leading product teams eventually and innovation teams. It all kind of spins around the same idea of innovation and products and things like that. And finally I've just been seeing this space I think is what I can call it. Um, and it doesn't matter if you're a third time founder who's exited companies, if you're a first timer who's kind of, you know, bootstrapping things with some friends when the time comes to present your ideas, to present your products, to present your potential new company, we have this tendency to freeze to just kind of halt a little bit. And I've really found a space here where I'm trying to give people a little bit of their voice back and a little bit of confidence to really kind of show up regardless of how small or big that stage is for them. And so that's what's kind of pushed me to kind of take this on full time to say, hey, like I, I know what you're building, um, and I know there's difficulties around it, tech in general, especially nowadays, just changing so fast. But I'm here to just try and make sure that you have a voice, that you can have this, this voice and whatnot. So that is how I, that is how I fell into it. It's, it's been a passion from the, from the beginning and now I feel like I can actually take the time and talk to everybody and be like, okay, what are you pitching? Come talk to me so that we can make it perfect.

Speaker B: Thanks for sharing that story. And of course all the journey from Canada to Prague, so good. Um, so in all of this journey, I know that I mentioned hundreds of products working with strv. So if you have. And of course now you're working independently. So how, what is the most common stuff that people is making mistakes from your point of view in terms of pitching their startups, in terms of fundraising. But this can also apply in terms of sales or even onboarding team members. Maybe it's the same mistake, but you can also divide it if, if you see there are more or at least one point for each of these, each of these categories mistakes sounds good.

Speaker C: Um, I think when it comes to just communication in general and it doesn't matter, I think if you're pitching your product or your company or if you're on a sales call or, um, you know, if you're onboarding. But one mistake that I, I see quite often, and I'm, I definitely do it myself, is whenever you're trying to explain something for the first time to somebody, simplicity is, is key. And a lot of the times we tend to get wrapped up in either too many details or we assume that the person on the other side is either already understands too much or we don't realize that they don't understand enough. And so we just kind of have this idea of how we're going to communicate and I think if it's not simple enough, then doesn't really resonate with the audience on, on the other side. So I think that's kind of mistake number, number one. But mistake number two, which I think is usually very quickly rectified, is not knowing who you're actually talking to, which sounds like a really weird idea. Uh, but when you are selling something, if you don't know the person you're selling to, if you don't know their needs and you don't Know their problems. It's really hard to, to sell something and have it land. And so a lot of the times, especially in sales and pitching specifically, we've been told that you should kind of train this 30 second elevator pitch, right? This like, sentence or this paragraph. And you, you definitely should. You, you should have that. But at the same time realizing who you're talking to, your communication style, the story you're telling needs to, needs to change, it needs to tweak. Um, you shouldn't have the same story for everyone that you encounter because it can't resonate with everyone that same way. And those are, I think, the two biggest mistakes. And the people I've seen who really know how to sell, how to do storytelling, you know, in a way that others admire, is they. The story doesn't change. You still have your main characters and you still have, you know, your, your bad guy. And then the outcome, there's still this happy ending, but they change the story depending on who they're speaking with in terms of some of the information they add in or leave out or shorten it or, you know, like, it's basically the genre of a book. And I think that's one of the most incredible talents that I try and teach people is just having this. Stay true to your story, but recognize that as you're telling it, you need to have kind of these little different versions for whoever the audience is.

Speaker B: How would you recommend people to understand their audience? Because of course, it's, let's say, common. Of course to try to say yes, we need to understand the audience and with the idea for people listening to us. Uh, yeah. Do you suggest any specific process towards how to do this in the easiest way possible or at least as an initial version for them to, to put them in the right direction?

Speaker C: The right, the right category? Yeah. Um, really good question. My, I would say method has always just been to ask, right? To ask, who is it? What is it that you need? What is it that you require from me, how much information you, you have, which isn't always possible. But as a founder or as a kind of a salesperson, when you're pitching, generally you have this ideal target, right? Or you should, you should have this ideal target of who you would like to talk to, who is your ideal customer, who's your, you know, who's your most perfect person here that you're, you're trying to kind of target and things like that. And when you have these Personas, it is very easy to kind of group people into these Personas to Say so if I'm talking to you. Okay, well, today I wanted to chat with somebody who is interested in pitching and I'm going to talk their ear off. And this is it. When in reality, I think the easier thing would be to just ask you, right, what is it that you're looking to, to do? What is it that you're looking to solve? What are these problems and whatnot? So I think short answer is just inquire, inquire, inquire, rather than kind of assume or take assumptions and try and group people into what you think are these little Personas and categories.

Speaker B: So if I have a chance to summarize that, then it means that we need to learn to ask more questions before actually proposing a solution that can fit the specific needs of this person or this target. Right. That you have in front. If it's a one to one, um, meeting or something like that. Is that correct?

Speaker C: That is exactly it. Before you start your monologues, which is ironic because I feel like I'm on my fourth one today already. But before you start your monologues, if you take those 10, 15 seconds to just figure out who the person on the other side is and what is it that they need, that usually can alleviate a lot of the pressure and push you in the direction where you're needed to go and where you should focus.

Speaker B: Now, do you have any suggestions how to do that? Even in, um, big audiences?

Speaker C: Definitely. So for me personally, when it's these kind of larger audiences, when you're at conferences or when you, you have these opportunities to address a much, much larger crowd, for me at that point, it's not so much knowing the audience and what they need. I kind of turn it inward and I go, okay, what is my goal here? Um, and the message that I'm trying to deliver, if, you know, in this whole podcast, whoever's listening to it, because realistically, right, we don't know who might click on this link and who might not. Um, and so that you're right, it'd be really hard to be like, okay, how do we do this? So then turn it inward and say, okay, if somebody was to chime in here, or if somebody was to listen to this, what is that one message or that one piece of information that I want them to take away? And immediately it pivots your thinking a little bit. Not so much to have it customized and personalized to the audience, but it really comes down to what is that message that you are trying to kind of push forward and have people remember and then Just keep coming back to that to make sure that that lands at the beginning, in the middle and uh, at the end that it's memorable and it's there.

Speaker B: You also mentioned at the beginning of these two points our mistakes is that we also want to sound really smart, uh, putting a lot of buzzwords. And of course, especially nowadays using AI everywhere. Or in the past it was blockchain or VR or whatever other tool or technology. Yeah. My question is, what is your idea? How to make people to simplify their message so it's understandable. Do you use any specific frameworks or any specific tactics, how to do it or. Because just to give you an example right now, when I write a message, I always create some kind of draft and then, uh, I even say the AI well, just make it as fifth grade reading level. So it's like, it's really easy. So that's my way to do it. Maybe it sucks, I don't know. But of course I read it again. I can see, okay, how easy is this to understand or I need to remove this or change that. But that's my way of thinking about that. So what are your ways?

Speaker C: What you touched upon is a very awesome, I would say, concept for a lot of things that you are, if you're explaining or if you're speaking about something. Right. I've heard that. Explain it to me like I'm a fifth year old or explain it to me like I'm a 10 year old. Or if you were explaining this to your grandmother who knows nothing about technology, could she understand, like, are your metaphors easy enough to figure out and things like that? So there's definitely that simplification version. I'm a huge advocate for just storytelling and I think stories are a lot more memorable in, in that. And I think one of the most beautiful things about stories is they're versatile as you can input as many characters, as many villains, um, as you want and so forth. A lot of things that I think we, we talk about or we pitch or we try and sell, all of it can kind of be spun into, into a story. And so for me it's always been making sure that that story is memorable, that the audience can relate to it somehow. And to make sure that there is either this happy ending or, you know, if you need somebody's help, that it's. It can, you know, can you be the hero of this story and can you, can you kind of move forward and stuff like that? And so trying to include the audience, I would say in a way that they Understand, I think that's where the simplicity comes in.

Speaker B: When you said storytelling, you're talking about the stories are stories that the founder have seen by itself or is the story of the customer? Or how do you. Yeah, I don't know if I am complicating too much the question, but the idea is maybe there are different, even different type of stories, right? Like can be the story of the industry, can be the story of the customer, but it can be even your personal story. And I assume, but last point before I give you sorry for my monologue is um, I assume it's not that we are going to impend the story because also it can feel non authentic if I am just inventing a story that maybe it didn't happen. What are your thoughts about this in general?

Speaker C: So I'm happy you had a monologue because I think I'm about to have my big one. So I apologize in advance, but one of my favorite things to teach was or is 1950s. You gotta do a fact check on me here. But Joseph Campbell was the uh, gentleman's name who wrote this book called A Hero with a Thousand Faces. And this is basically these myths and stories from around the world, from different cultures, from different parts of the globe. And he put this, um, 12 step journey, if you will, of this, of this what a hero kind of does. And at a high level, if you, if you don't know what it is, it's this idea that every good story basically has a hero who doesn't know he's about to be the hero, who basically gets challenged or invited for this quest, right? And then there's a little bit of this struggle and a transformation and a return home. And that's, that's the idea, that's the concept. And throughout this hero's journey, almost every single hero encounters like a mentor or you know, who's a guide, a wizard, helper, whoever, to kind of help navigate, navigate them through. But the idea is that this showcases how humans experience growth, is that it is never alone or very rarely, that there has to be ups and downs. Right. In the most traditional stories that we've seen, heard, remembered, there always has to be a little bit of a struggle. If it's too easy, it's not believable. Um, right. And so these challenges that this hero has to kind of over overcome. The reason I bring this up is this concept, when I learned about this, stuck with me. And I've applied it from sales to pitch calls to internal teams to say, what is it? Like who is it? And it's really interesting because once you kind of uncover the face of this, you recognize that in today, this can be seen in some of the most memorable things that we know about, um, Star Wars. George Lucas was a huge fan of John Campbell's work. They did, like, an interview together, and he said, luke is my hero, right? And then here's Obi Wan, who, you know, who will help him, and things like that. And you go, oh, yeah, that makes sense. And then you look at Harry Potter and the Matrix and whatever else, and you're seeing this pattern kind of unravel in all of these. Um, I would say, you know, absolute diamonds of, you know, productions and things that we have. So my theory is, if it can work for Star wars, it can work for you. And so one of the things that we do in the workshops is I try to challenge founders and entrepreneurs to say, what is the hero's journey for. For you? And the trick that I, or, uh, the little trap that I set is a lot of the times the founders put themselves in as the hero, right? Because it makes sense. Like, I'm starting on this quest, and I'm building this company, and I'm doing all these things. But the plot twist actually is that you're not supposed to be the hero. The hero of your story should be your customer. The hero of your story is the person that you are trying to help. And you are actually just that guide, that mentor and everything else. And when we break that down and apart, we have these, like, aha, moments where, you know, as an entrepreneur, as a founder, it is challenging to cause. There are so many of these, like, little quests that you want to. Want to go on. But at the end of the day, I think if you're trying to make something that is memorable, you are trying to help somebody, you're trying to solve somebody's problem, and you're coming with that, with that solution. And so this idea is, hey, what is my hero's problem? Right? What is my customer trying to solve? I can offer the solution, and I can help guide and navigate and mentor them so that he can get this value and that he can kind of return home and be better off and have more knowledge or whatever else. So that's my monologue, um, on what we do and how. How we kind of do it and present it. This, uh, just to try and wrap it up, this idea of a hero's journey kind of coming towards the end. Some of the most talented founders that I've basically ever, ever worked with have almost Always said, right, is that my goal at the end of this is to make sure that my hero or my customers realistically do not need me after I show them the value of what they have. Like, I shouldn't have to keep coming back and being like, reminding them, hey, I'm here. You should do this. Like, it should just become second nature for whatever it is, um, that you're trying to solve for them. And if the problem really is as difficult as you say it is, or if the customers are really having this issue, then if you offer them that solution and it sticks, then you've, You've succeeded. Right. They won't need you every time. They'll just automatically use it because you've shown them how, how it can be better.

Speaker B: Good. So you have broken my heart right now because I was imagining like, Superman or stuff like that. I'm just kidding. Yeah. So I am not the hero. Come on.

Speaker C: Sorry. But I will say, next movie you watch, I want you to like, watch for this pattern. I'll say, like, is this a hero? Whoever it is, uh, you know, there's a challenge to a quest or like, something, and like, no, no, I can't. And then somebody says, but we, we can do it. And they have to go through all of this, defeat the villain, and they kind of return back and, you know, there's growth and they're so much better off and everything else. Like, it's once. It's one of those things that once you see it, you can't unsee, um, it. Which is a little annoying. So if I, if I ruin that for you, I, I am sorry.

Speaker B: No, yeah, I actually, I'm just kidd. But yeah, it's just to. It's part of, of today's conversation to, to tell you that you have broken my heart into it. But yeah, I know about this book. It's called Building a Story Brand. Clarify your messages customers and just trying to. Customers will listen. But I assume is also based in this because of course the book that you mentioned before is first releasing 1949 and this is releasing 2017.

Speaker C: B, I would bet, like, if, uh, there, there has to be inspiration because to me this was from what, from what I know from the research that I have, this was the first time that this was kind of documented. And there's been so much inspiration drawn from this book. But it's very much in. In the background. But I think a lot of these kind of come back to this point because this was the first kind of publication that came out and said, hey, I Think there's a pattern here across the globe on how we see transformations and how stories have been passed down and why they have been passed down and why they have been so successful and so memorable is because of this idea of this hero's journey. And when we talk about pitching sales calls, anything that storytelling, to me, whether we know it or not, tends to resonate with us because it's something that we've. We've known. We've known since little children, because that is how stories get told to us. And so if you can spin whatever you need to around these kind of points, I think it's much more likely to stick. Because for us, it's natural to just assume. Um, and that's where our heads tend to. Tend to go.

Speaker B: Well, I kind of see that you already answered the question, like I will do next, but I want to remark it. So let's say that today you meet a founder and you and they are desperate to fundraise or generate more sales. What would be your ideal situation for them to make their initial change in that journey in terms of storytelling is like. Yeah, because in terms of investors, maybe if you are really early stage, they want to see this big vision, right. And in terms of sales, maybe the customers wants to see how you are solving my problem that I have. Right. So, but let's say you listen to a pitch today. What is the initial step they should take is to rethink this storytelling mindset that you mentioned? Or is there something else that people can do as fast as possible, let's say?

Speaker C: Interesting question, because I think it breaks down into, like, two parts. The, the quick and easy, right? Like, I. I have a pitch in an hour. Like what? Like, how can I improve it? What. What can I. What can I do to. To. To make it better? Um, um. And my answer to. To that is, you have these, I would say, core structures that you need. What's the problem? What's the solution? What's the value? So the transformation of your customer, your user. What's the proof? What's the next step? Five things. Those need to be in there, those need to resonate, and those need to be the main pillars of everything that you are talking to. Talking about data, information, statistics, analytics, especially now we have so many. Those are wonderful. Um, and they should be in there to a degree when you're talking about the proof about traction, about things that. Things that you have. But if you have all of the traction in the world and you have not sold it, pitched it, communicated it in a way where I can understand the greater value, the bigger vision, right? What is that problem that you are trying to solve and that you clearly are solving? If you have all this traction, then usually it falls flat. And it's really upsetting to see because I have worked with so many incredibly talented people who have just the challenges that came over on, on their own to try and get things up and running and move and whatnot. And all of a sudden they get to this, this pitch and they forget all about it. They forget about all these challenges that they had to endure and work through and it's just stat after stat after stat. And no matter how much AI we have, if we're talking one on one, there's only so much information, so many numbers that I can retain and I can remember versus if you're telling me a story that has value and emotions and whatnot, I am so much more likely to remember that. And so the quick fix is just making sure that if you are pitching tomorrow, what is that story that you should be able to basically say, you know, in, in that 30 second time span, like who's your main character? What are they trying to solve? How are you helping them? Did they solve it? Amazing. What's chapter two? That's it.

Speaker B: Thanks for sharing. Now, in terms of even alignment with your team, so what it changed to onboard someone to be part of your team? Because I mean we are competing against multiple companies every time and who have the most shiny stuff to attract your team members? Do you think it's about again, it's about this same methodology about the vision? Or do you see that the storytelling for, for you as a team member is a bit different? So what are the ingredients maybe that can differ from an investor, which an investor, let's say, wants to thank X the exit, let's say. And then but of course the team member maybe wants or have different motivations. So how do you adjust uh, that uh, storytelling, if you have any suggestions into it?

Speaker C: I think we're starting to blend telling and emotions. So for me, if you're talking about investors right at the end of it, in my opinion the emotion that you should leave is curiosity. Investors should be curious about this next step. They should be curious about wanting to know more. They should be curious about you and your product and whatnot. If we're talking about internally and you say no onboarding a new team, I think curiosity still, still there, but I think more so you're trying to build this emotion of excitement, you're trying to build this emotion to motivate Them, right? To, uh, come on board to this team and help you guys steer this ship in whatever direction that you're. You're going. I think storytelling can still be a part of that. Uh, it's just maybe now you do have to kind of change who the hero is and what the problem is and how it's solved and maybe more so include that person. So they're not just a bystander, um, but they may be there. They are a main character in the story and say, hey, you're kind of the hero we've been. We've been waiting for to help us, right? Like, if I'm hiring for my new CFO of a startup that I have, I can spin that story to say, I need, you know, my right hand to this hero. So there could be two heroes. And, you know, Frodo needs Sam to make it through through. So, you know, can you. Can you be my Sam sort of thing? I don't know why I'm stuck on Lord of the Rings today, but moving on. So, yeah, I think that storytelling still applies. It depends on who the main characters are, who supporting characters are, and what you're trying to kind of get in in the end.

Speaker B: Understood. And, um, now, do you have any examples of a company you have collaborated with that you have seen this transformation thanks to storytelling or how you have held them? Of course, if it's public information and if you want to shout out about someone doing a good job, feel free to do it. Otherwise, we can, of course, talk it anonymously as well, so it's not a problem.

Speaker C: So just one thing. You said that the storytelling that I've been using, just like, this is not my concept. Right. I want to make sure, as much as I would love to be brilliant enough to say, I. I've. I've put storytelling into pitching, and, you know, I'm so wonderful. No, this is, this is definitely a concept that I've been shown, um, and that I've recognize in some of the people that I really respect and look up to and I've seen as a true talent that you can, you can develop and you can. You. You can work on one. I would say cruel example, but I will share. I, uh, shared in a couple of workshops. I was a part of a investors meeting, let's say we call it, and we were in the final rounds, and the investor had basically these two companies that they were deciding between of who they were going to, um, go with. And they had already presented some things, and they basically should have came for this final Final presentation. And so we had startup A and startup B and the main gentleman on the, on the VC board right before each of the companies came in. Before, uh, company A, this was back in the days, you know, where you had to plug in laptops into like projectors to show things on screens and things like that. This wasn't, you know, airplay everything, but he went up to the little projector and he unplugged, um, a cable, which I thought was just the biggest asshole move that you, you could possibly do. And everyone in the room knew. And we basically watched these two startups go one after the other and to see what they would, what they would do. And the first startup that went, they had 30 minutes to basically get through this, this entire presentation. And they spent the first 15 minutes trying to figure this out. Uh, they called the IT guy. They just, they were trying to, you know, scramble to, to get this technology to work so they could show their slides and show everything. And they got it in the end. The time was really short, so they couldn't get through everything. Um, but they, they managed. And the second startup came in and the, the founder basically gave it like three minutes and finally he just said, forget it. And he basically just had this like, story time with us and he just talked, he talked for the rest of the half an hour telling us what it is that he wants to do and, you know, this vision that he has and all these things, completely forgetting about the slides that they wanted to present. Um, and he hit on just so many emotions and you could feel the passion and you could feel, you know, just the energy that this team was, was coming in with. Obviously, as you can guess, it was the second startup that, that we had gone with. Um, but I was so upset that, you know, why would you, why would you put them through this? Why not just listen to the presentation, whatnot? And the answer that I got was multiple reasons. One is they wanted to see what they would do really, in kind of this crunch period, when you were faced with a challenge head on, right? Like there was, there's nothing to hide behind. You're standing in front of a room, the time is ticking. What do you do, how do you act? And what is your flow of logic, of thinking? And the second thing is, is all of a sudden, when you can't hide behind or when you don't have all of these tools that we use to help you, you really are just left with you, right? And what is it that you yourself can bring? What's your energy? What is, what are all these things. And it was so incredible to watch, um, this founder basically spin this story out of nothing. And all he had was just the energy, the motivation and whatnot. Um, and I will never forget it. It was, it was absolutely incredible. And I think that's when I really found out, like, you can do so much with this. You can do like this is such a powerful tool if you know how to, how to use it. And that was it. Just witnessing that firsthand, I was like, okay, like we, we need to start teaching people this. Like, we need to start telling people, like, okay, you, you really need to, to be ready to, to do this at any point.

Speaker B: Yeah, of course. I think this remind me, um, a story of, I think some director or something. I think this is from some global company. He was inviting people to a restaurant and then he was telling the waiter in advance to throw some juice or something to the person so that he can see how the person react against the uh, waiter, so he can evaluating his values thanks to that or how the person will behave when they're having this challenge. Of course, of course the people who was mostly respectful or even uh, that uh, was the people who was hiding. So it's something similar in terms of, of course, different in terms of hiding, but it's like also you can see how they are behaving after having a stress or something.

Speaker C: Exactly. Just when you throw them off like that, it really reveals the true character. Um, um, and it is incredible to see how powerful some people can, can become. And just you, you see the force and you see the energy and you go, wow, this is really somebody I'd like to work with. And on the flip side, unfortunately there are people where you throw a little bit of a wrench in. Um, um, when you see the true face, you kind of go, I'm, I'm not sure if I, if I want this relationship to work because maybe behind that mask is a little bit of a different person.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So we have been chatting a lot of the different ideas that you have are using and to help startup founders and people in terms of not only phishing, but also confidence or how to handle stuff. But I wonder, like we were having, we are going to have this workshop coming at the end of this month. Um, so I wonder from your perspective and based on the plan, so what do you think people will practice during that day? And that uh, can be helpful for them? So if we can chat a bit about that for sure.

Speaker C: So the pitch workshop that we have at the end of the month is really geared towards not only founders and entrepreneurs, but realistically, I would say anybody who just needs to pitch themselves, their ideas, whether it is for sales or even internally, right? Like, if all of a sudden you're an organization and you're trying to do some sort of transformation of whatever it is, and you need, um, buy in from stakeholders, from your team and things like that. So that's who. That's who the workshop is kind of geared towards. And my goal with these is not so much on the, I would say, basic etiquettes of presenting, which I think you can get in, like the Toastmasters and whatnot. You know, don't mumble into the microphone, don't do these things. But taking these ideas of what a pitch should be, breaking it down, and then having the workshop itself build it back up. So it's a little bit like Lego blocks, if we will. And some of the things that we work on, we had already already mentioned is, uh, how would you tell this story if you were the hero? How would you tell it if somebody. Somebody else was. Exercises in there that we do that are solely focused on, uh, as I mentioned, kind of this investor is. If you are completely caught off guard, how is it that you don't lose your footing? What is it that you can do to ground yourself to make sure that you. You can continue? Um, so you don't necessarily freeze up, you know, and kind of forget everything and how. The bottom. The main idea of this workshop is to really show people that if you have the story straight in your head, you have no problem with basically anything being thrown at you, because you can always kind of go back to the story and pick up at any given point and continue telling it in various different, different ways. And so that's what. That's what the workshop is about. And it's geared towards. I would say that it's unique. But most importantly, the people who have. We've done these workshops for three, four years now. The feedback that we get at the end is just. For me, it's heartwarming, um, because at the beginning, right, we get so many people who are like, I hate these things. I hate talking. I, you know, I don't want to do this. And then they finish it and they go, this is incredible. Like, this was eye opening. I feel so much better. I feel more confident. And they realize it's not as scary as they thought. And that, to me, is the reason why we do this is, you know, if we can get a few people, man, even just one, if we can get one person to say, this isn't that scary. Like, I can do it. It's. It's worth it.

Speaker B: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. Um, so important for people. Of course. Yeah, feel free to join us. Of course we will put a link to these podcasts if you want. And of course I hope we can repeat this workshop. Of course we will see how Kay will be happy or not about that in the future, but we will see. And so I'm putting on the spot in the recording now.

Speaker C: Thanks.

Speaker B: So since we have, I think maximum 10 minutes for now, so I want to move towards, uh, kind of, let's say rapid fire questions. Ideally we will answer them in a short way. Uh, then we will have some final thoughts and yeah, ah, close it for today, but we can chat more later on and go deeper in ideas today about the storytelling in a future, future podcast, of course, if we can do it. So I will go with the firestood with the rapid fire question. Sorry. So I wonder, like you already mentioned one book that has been a great inspiration for you in terms of storytelling. Yeah. So do you have any other book that you would recommend every founder to read to communicate better from your perspective?

Speaker C: These are rapid fire rates. I'm just supposed to answer. I'm thinking of like, you know, seven Day Sprint and kind of all these things. But I think to me the most important is to communicate with people. So I would say the culture map is just realizing the different people and how you communicate with them, especially now when teams are so international and dynamic and things like that. So I would say that the culture map.

Speaker B: Good. And, um, if you need to select one. Well, I think we already answered this kind of in that way, but. Okay, let's, let's do it and see if you have any other ideas. But if you need to select one exercise for people to do in 10 minutes to improve their pitch, what would be that activity that they can do?

Speaker C: Pretend you're writing like a Disney or a Pixar script of whatever it is you're. You're selling. And can you make it from beginning to end with knowing who the main characters are, what the problem is and kind of. What. What is that happy, happy ending that, that you get to.

Speaker B: Good. And, um, what is one thing that people should remove from their pitching today?

Speaker C: If you have a whole bunch of Excel screenshots in your pitch deck, delete them immediately. Take out key numbers, take out core statistics. Do not put a screenshot. Nobody can understand it. It does not belong in a pitch deck.

Speaker B: Okay. And in the opposite Direction. What someone should add to a pitch that maybe is not that common, at least when you are mentoring startups in competitions. So what is something that you believe they should add?

Speaker C: You need to add a team slide. You need to show the brains, the heart, the people behind the startup. Investors very, very much resonate with the people that they're trying to build with. And I'm always surprised at how often that's missed. How people just say you don't. They don't need to see the team, they do. The team is one of the most important things that you can have in there.

Speaker B: What is one mindset shift that helps people pitch better?

Speaker C: You've already won. It's really funny when you get into a mindset of hey, I already won because I like, I already got this meeting right. I'm already standing here, I'm already like, I already won this. So talk, communicate, present, pitch as if you already achieved the outcome that you wanted.

Speaker B: Good. What do you think is an underrated skills that uh, makes a big difference in terms of fundraising or sales?

Speaker C: Rapid thinking or like on the spot thinking? I think a lot of people get caught up in questions, especially from investors or you know, if somebody has some uncertainty and to be able to think on the spot I think can make or break so many moments.

Speaker B: Okay. How do you recommend people to practice this?

Speaker C: If you have any way run through some basic scenarios. Right. Practice in advance with people and you know what, what wasn't clear? What was your first thought here? Do that really put up different mirrors around yourself so you can see a little bit of the reflection. And what I mean by mirrors is not just you like recording yourself, that's fine. But pitch to people who are not in your industry. Talk to people who you don't think you would ever necessarily need to communicate with to get their perspectives. Just kind of put these mirrors around so you can get a little bit of a 360 overview. And I think usually that prepares you for these kind of random questions that might pop up.

Speaker B: I have heard somewhere. But I don't know if this is right or wrong, but I can tell it to you that sometimes is good to just leave something out on purpose that you know is important, but you leave it out so that you kind of guide the questions from the investors afterward towards that. Do you think that makes any sense or not really?

Speaker C: Yes, I do know what you're talking about. I've always referred to it as hide and seek.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: The challenge or the problem is you need to make sure that the other person knows that something is hiding because if they don't, they have no desire to look for it. So there is this idea that you briefly mention it, or you kind of scan over it, or you hint at it, but you don't necessarily go into details, therefore inviting them to ask questions. And we talked about it earlier in the podcast is. There's this. There's multiple ways to build curiosity. And I think that is one of the ways where you can just kind of insert little pieces to build up those seeds of curiosity. And if they're watered correctly, then they. Then they will come back. It is a dangerous game to play. You really have to know your audience. You have to know your stuff. But I do think that if you can play that game right, the. The winning rewards of that are pretty incredible.

Speaker B: Okay, then, last two questions for now. What is one message you would put in a billboard that is wash for every founder out there in terms of this topic, of storytelling or phishing. That. Yeah. Or in general about building their own company? Yeah. What would you say in that billboard based on your experience till now, other

Speaker C: than like, come take my workshop? Um, yes.

Speaker B: Other than your phone number?

Speaker C: Uh, yeah, other than my contact information, I think I would. For all founders and entrepreneurs. Uh, people do not connect to products. People connect to emotions and stories, and that is where the true connection happens. And I think the moment that you start putting your sorry, quote end billboard. My billboard is small so that people don't connect to products. They connect to emotions and stories and value you, period. That's my. My billboard.

Speaker B: Good. I think you couldn't have an A4 text inside the billboard, but it's going to be hard to read. Good. Last point of today. So, yeah. Is there something you want to remark about this conversation or maybe some small idea that we didn't talk too much, but you want to leave it out there and kind of food of thoughts for people to research or to go deeper There.

Speaker C: A final kind of food. Food for thought. I think the one thing that I try and echo over and over again doesn't matter if it's workshops, if it's whatever else the people I meet, but confidence in general in pitching comes the moment you start to understand the story that you're telling. When you understand the story that you're telling and the value of it, all of a sudden everything just becomes so much, so much easier. And so if you're not sure about your story, you're not sure who the main characters are, you're not sure, you know, what challenge it is go back, revisit it, and build it in a way that makes sense, that you remember and that it can resonate with people. And when you have that, you will not need pitching workshops done by me. You'll have the confidence because you'll believe in what it is that you're building.

Speaker B: Okay, so this is a good way to finish for today. So thank you very much, Kate, for all your reflections. And yeah, looking forward to the worship, to the workshop, and of course, all the best in your journey as well, helping more startups to build more confidence and improve their pitching skills.

Speaker C: Thank you, sir. We'll see you at the workshop March 31st.

Speaker B: See you around.

Speaker A: Uh, Thank you very much for joining us. We hope you have enjoyed this episode and gained valuable insights. Feel free to share with your friends and looking forward to seeing you next time.

Speaker B: Sam.