From Doctor Dreams to Field Service: The Massive Potential of Underrepresented Career Paths | Marina George | Frontline UNSCRIPTED Ep. 4

Welcome to Frontline Unscripted. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. We are in our fourth episode now of the Frontline version of the Unscripted podcast. And I am thrilled to welcome today our very first female field service engineer, Marina George, who is a field service engineer at Oxford Instruments. Marina, welcome to Frontline Unscripted. Hello. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being here. So Marina and I had the good fortune to meet one another at the Field Service Next west event in San Diego at the beginning of April, and coincidentally at the Women in Service breakfast. So I heard when we did introduction, she said, oh, I'm a field service engineer at Oxford Instruments. And I ran right over to her afterwards and said, hi, we just started a new podcast. Would you please come on? So one of the goals with this Frontline Unscripted podcast is to showcase all different voices among the Frontline, and that means different industries, different geographies and other forms of diversity. We were just chatting before we started, Marina, about the fact that that's a tougher task to accomplish than I wish it were, you know, to make sure that I'm weaving in that diversity because, you know, it's a well known fact that there aren't a ton of female field service engineers. So we'll talk about that a bit more as we get going. But just to start, you know, I'd like to start with when you were young, because I think it's really interesting in these conversations to talk with everyone about how did you get into field service? Because I don't feel many people even know about that as an option when you're little and someone says, what do you want to be when you grow up? So I know you shared that when you were little, you wanted to be a doctor. So can you talk a little bit about that and where that led you on your educational journey and kind of, you know, when you decided to pivot. Yes. So when I was younger, I really loved science. And during that time, when you love science, there's really only one career trajectory available, which is being a doctor. So throughout high school and college, I took lots of pre med classes, did lots of pre med groups, and then I remember I shadowed a doctor when I was in college and we were talking about the day to day and it just didn't really sit well with me. And I wanted to be more in the science, not in healthcare. And I never thought of field service before at all. So then I started to do research at Baylor University during my undergrad and I really fell in love with it and then at that point I was like, okay, so I'm not going to go to medical school. What is the next step? Now that I had been in my undergraduate, I saw that there was a lot more options. So I think that's really important for anyone who likes science early in their career to know you don't just have to be a doctor. And then from there I went to graduate school. I did my PhD at Baylor as well and just continued to still love science. And then I fell in love with microscopy, so using different microscopes, so light microscopes, electron microscopes, just anything, any technology. And then again, I feel like a lot of careers there's always this path that they want you to be on. Like everybody thinks, you know, if you're in graduate school, you do really well, then you'll become a professor and have your own research lab or go into industry and work for like big pharma or a large company. And for me, I still wasn't really sure because I feel like I was so set in being a doctor. Like that was like ingrained in my mind. I think since I was like 6 years old that I kind of wanted to try a lot of different things. So I did a postdoc and I tried to do a lot more biology because I did more chemistry previously. And then from there I realized I really like technology. So then I became a confocal core manager at Cincinnati Children's Hospital. And I really love that. I loved the interaction between doctors, so like how I wanted to be a doctor and also getting to help them image their samples from their patients as well as help aid in the research. And then from there I just still continued to really like technology and also helping customers. And so that's what led me to Oxford Instruments andor where now I'm a field service engineer and I get to use like the top tech in the field and also have customers that are doctors, physicians, scientists, everybody. Yeah. Okay, so I have a couple questions on this, but one of the things that I don't have the answer for, but I think is such a prevalent theme when we talk about career paths and when we talk about career paths, but also when we talk about the huge need for frontline workers coming into fields or all field service industries, I think we're doing kids a disservice when they're young by only showing them there's only representation for, you know, a handful really of careers. Like if you ask any 6 year old what do you want to be, you know, there's maybe 10 things that they'll say until we're much older and start to have a bit of life experience where you see how each one of those things. So in your example, if you take doctor and you started going down the path of education for that, then you start seeing that there, yes, there's still sort of a prescribed path, but you start to understand the layers of careers that intersect with that one thing that you like, represented all of science to you when you were young. And so I'm not sure how we do a better job of representing greater variety for children at a younger age. There's, you know, different folks that we've talked with that are working hard to do that. So in from a trades perspective, we had on the woman who co founded Move Over Bob, and it's a publication. What I love about it is that they've created this publication really centered initially around construction trades, but with the idea of being like Seventeen magazine for girls, but showcasing all of these different career opportunities. And so if we can make it cool and we can make it interesting so that kids will not only see other options, but be intrigued enough to learn more. I just think it's so important because there is a cost, especially in the United States, of getting into college. And then, I mean, I started college as a nursing major and changed my major. You know, a year in, there's a cost to that, a real cost. And, you know, time is precious and you're spending money for that education. And so I just, like I said, I don't have the answers, but I think we need to do a better job when kids are young of showing them different options. My kids just had career day at school a week or two ago, and it was again, all of the typical things. Firefighter, police officer. And there's nothing wrong with those careers, obviously, but we need to get into more nuance so that they understand all those adjacent things. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that other than yes, I think it's important. I feel like all the careers that we see are these different icons. And kids don't realize that they have a whole team supporting them as well. Lawyers, they have their paralegals, doctors, nurses. Like there's all of these extra careers that are part of that one piece. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So you go in to pre med and you realize you don't really want to, to your point, go into healthcare. You really love the, the science and the research part. And so you go into your first postdoctorate role. And in that role you start to work with a lot of different techn technology providers. And you shared with me that at one point, I think you still hadn't necessarily thought like, oh, these are also all career paths until someone kind of said, hey, there's an opening. And you said that was the first time you really envisioned or considered a career in field service. What was your mindset at that point? Like, what went through your head the first time someone mentioned that to you? And you kind of had that light bulb moment. Yeah. So I was about halfway through my postdoc and we're setting up a new lab. So I'm interacting with a lot of different vendors and I'm saying, okay, this is my project plan, this is what we're trying to do. And then these are the pieces of equipment I need to purchase. So setting up demos and negotiating prices. And one of the vendors, because we're purchasing a very large piece of equipment, I built a relationship with and he said, you know, I think you would be great if, you know, if you don't want to be a PI, like a professor of your own research, you could work with me. And, you know, that person is still my mentor today and we talk about careers and it really opened my eyes because I never saw myself as, you know, like someone in the suit and tie and, you know, oh, like salesperson, I'm selling this. And it opened my mind that you can still have a lot of technological fun in industry like that. It's not just sales, it's not just business. It's really aiding researchers to be able to do their work with the products that you have. Yeah, yeah. And I think the point you made earlier is a really good point about how it kind of gives you the opportunity to be involved in the pieces of it that initially drew your interest without, you know, having that day to day that you wouldn't actually find satisfying, but finding that there are actually other pieces that you had a lot of interest in as well. And it's sort of an intersection point of those things that has been brought up to me by others that I've interviewed where it again, wasn't something that they initially envisioned, but they found that it actually allowed them to engage in the role that they had envisioned in a way that they have a lot more satisfaction with. So you chose Oxford, so you ultimately made that move and you've been there for over three years. So what are some of the aspects that made you ultimately decide to take that move and what do you really like about the role? Yes, so during that time I had applied to a lot of different companies. And the thing that I really liked about Oxford is it feels more like a small company. And I also get to directly build those relationships with the customers. So when I first started, the role was part field service, it was part tech support. So not only was I helping the customer through the computer, like how we were on Zoom today, but I was also helping the customer in person. And that's one of the biggest parts that I love about my role, is building that relationship with the customer. You know, you build a strong foundation of trust and with that also aiding them in their research and helping them. Specifically for Oxford, there's a lot of different products. So for me, I always want to be with a company that has like the cutting edge technology. And so for Oxford, I was in Andor and, you know, just having a lot of fun with all the technology. Yeah, yeah, so you mentioned it. It's a great combination of the people parts, building those relationships, developing that trust. Like you said, interacting with the roles that you initially thought is what you would want to do. And then you realized you also really, really love the technology. I know you shared with me that from a practical perspective, there's better pay opportunity than academia and more variety of work. So what have you found in terms of what that variety looks like in the career that you're in versus the one that you initially envisioned? Yeah, that's a great question. So within academia, I envisioned my future being, okay, I wake up and I'm gonna write a grant, and then I'm going to, you know, help my researchers, and I'm going to present and teach. And it is kind of the same flow over and over and over again. But with field service and then working in this kind of industry, your day can change completely one day to the next. So, for example, you know, today I might be going in, installing a brand new piece of equipment for a lab. You know, it feels like Christmas, opening up all the boxes. And then the next week I might be at a conference just like how we met and you know, talking to people in the field and also talking to other people in the industry and sharing ideas. And so the. The day to day can be completely different, especially compared to academia. Yeah, yeah. And that's another common characteristic that people enjoy is that, you know, you don't. There's not a high likelihood of getting bored. You know, there's a lot of variety in, I guess, not only location, you know, like you're not in the same place every single day, but in type of problem solving, even you know, so you get to use different parts of your brain and you get to, you know, even like you said, there's you an install versus a repair versus you know, supporting other colleagues or you know, like you said, going and engaging in the industry and thinking about innovation. You know, there's all of these different elements that really keep things interesting. You spoke about, I think, a unique aspect of the field service role, which is the fact that you really do become a trusted partner to customers. So you form a connection and a relationship. You have this ability to uncover, I think often much deeper customer sentiment than a company can gather through a voice of the customer survey or even at a different level that isn't really engaged on a day to day basis. What's your perspective on how that unique aspect of the role is valued and leveraged by the broader organizations based on your own experience or also what you see with peers in other organizations? Yeah, so for the type of equipment that I service, they're really large microscopes and they're typically in a dark room. And during that time with the customer, it, it has like a vulnerable feeling. And I feel like the customer is really telling me how they are feeling, how they feel about the product, how they feel about, you know, if something went wrong, how was it handled and they really tell you what they want, they'll clearly say it. Where like you're saying on the voice of customer survey, it's just a lot of words. There's something special about that in person, face to face, human connection. And I think that a lot of companies are listening to field service engineers and taking that information and learning from it. And then when we were at the conference, actually had an idea of not just having a voice of customer survey, but having a voice of field service engineer survey as well. So that way, let's say, you know, we have a detractor and then we have, you know, the field service engineer. So maybe the field service engineer thinks it went really well. Maybe they're agreeing with the customer and then they can add in a lot of those comments that may have been in those, you know, quiet conversations that, you know, the C suite is going to want to hear. You know, some of it's really things that are going well and then what can go better. Yeah, that's a really good idea in your workflow, I guess outside of that idea that you had, like in your workflow, like what is the opportunity you have to kind of make note of or share some of the insights that you get from those customer interactions? Yeah. So one recent Example of that is we sold an instrument and it's one of our less sophisticated instruments and the customer is just wanting to use it to the max. They're wanting to use every bell and whistle. And with that they have a lot of really great ideas. I feel like the customers can really tell a company where they can go next. And like we were talking earlier, like product development, so I captured a lot of what the customer had to say. They even sent data. Like the customer is kind of doing the work and then, you know, just asking them questions and then feeding all of that into product, product and project management. So they're taking that information to see, okay, is it feasible for R and D to do this idea or can we maybe, you know, have this software patch to update this? So really taking their voice and directly putting it to the top of who is in charge of the product at the time. Yeah, yeah, because, you know, any, any innovation that a customer might have in mind. Right. Like the product team, knowing that gives them the opportunity to see, like, okay, so how much of our customer base would this be valuable to? Is it worth investing in? But I think in, in some organizations at least, you know, there isn't. Not only there isn't a workflow in place to allow that exchange of information, but I think more importantly, there isn't a perceived interest in it. So I think often the frontline feels that their job is just to go and do the work and that the unique nature of that relationship and the knowledge that comes from it isn't necessarily valued or respected. And it's really unfortunate because there's just so much that can come from the front line that can affect all different aspects of the business. We had our first of two in person events last week in New York. And one of the people that I interviewed is a woman named Natalia Schumann, who's the CEO of a company called Mistress Group. And she took that role at the beginning of last year. And she said that, you know, when she came into the role, she told the board that she needed 90 days before they put any pressure on her for, you know, output to just listen to customers and Frontline. And that's for the first 90 days, that's what she did and used all of that input to shape the strategy and the plans from there. And it sounds really simple, but it just showed the respect that she has for that knowledge and the benefit that comes from listening as a leader and not, you know, coming to try and, I don't know, put on a show or pretend you have all the answers or, you know, feel like you have to. Like, I'm the CEO, so I have to be the expert, but just show up to say, I'm here to learn from you. I want to understand what's working, what's not working. You know, it's just such an incredible tool to build trust, you know, like you said. So, yeah, it's a big thing. I want to go back to what I said at the beginning. So we. We've only done four episodes of this podcast so far, but you are the first female that I've had the opportunity to interview. And I'm curious, has that. How has that factored into your experience or not? Like, what have you observed in terms of, you know, is it rare in, you know, for you to. To be. Are you one of few? You know, do you feel like it's. There's been some challenges? Do you feel like it's been maybe in some ways, like, an advantage? You know, what are your thoughts on that part? For me, I think it hasn't really been a disadvantage at all. I feel like customers really trust me, and I come with a really, like, kind heart, and they feel that I'm really listening to them. Yeah. Whether that's my personality or because I'm a woman, I don't know, but. And then also within the business unit that I'm in for Oxford Instruments, there's a lot of women. So one of my mentors has been with the company. She's in there over 15 years now. And I feel like, especially also for life science, it hasn't really hurt or helped me. Yeah, that's good. It's interesting. And this is one of the things that makes these conversations really enlightening, is that while a lot of my time has been spent looking at field services sort of collectively, there are, particularly from the frontline perspective, the talent perspective, like, there are some real differences when you get into industry to industry, you know, and. And I think, you know, there's a lot of different. Different facets to that, but it's good that it's been, you know, a positive experience for you and also that you're surrounded by other women in your business. So going back to the point we were talking about, about, like, the trusted partnership, trusted advisor type role, I think this is one of the reasons why people so often say, I mean, I've heard this a million times, service is a people business, because there's no way to underscore the importance of that relationship. That trust, I think it is, is truly often what differentiates one Organization from, From the next. And what makes the front line so incredibly valuable? You mentioned when we spoke initially that the people parts of the job, I guess what we commonly refer to as soft skills weren't as natural for you when you first started, so that you were pretty shy. And I can imagine coming from sort of the research world, you know, it is a lot of, yes, you were interacting with others, but it's others that typically are also working toward the same outcome. And it's a little bit of a more insulated type environment. How did you, how did you start to open up and what helped you? I guess. And, and when did you notice those interactions start to shift? Yes. So I came in and I know the technical details and I know how academia works, but everybody has so many different personalities and different goals. And, you know, sometimes a piece of equipment will go down and someone is like, oh, okay, that's fine. And then the other lab is like, oh, I up today. So there is a really large range of personalities and also priorities from customers. And the biggest piece of advice that I got was to just be myself. You don't need to perform. You don't need to have a specific way to work with customers. If you just come to the customer as yourself, like another human being, and say, okay, number one, listening, I hear what you're saying. This is our plan. And then following up on the plan, anybody could be a field service engineer with, with those skills. Yeah. So that was really the biggest piece of advice because I didn't know really how to act or what exactly to say, because I feel like in our tool belt, we all have like all of these really sophisticated skills, specialized skills. But then it would be great to also have a lot of those soft skills as well, which I think naturally you do learn them over time on the job. But in the beginning, it was a little tough. Yeah. I think it doesn't come natural for everyone, though. And I think often when someone is very technically adept and really intelligent from that perspective, you know, it isn't always as natural. And so I really love the advice to just be yourself because there is no one way or no right way to be human. Right. And I think that takes the pressure off of feeling like you're doing it wrong or you're not doing it the way you have to do it. And it allows you to find what way works for you in terms of that communication style. I mean, there's obviously like core things that if you're engaging with other humans, are going to be effective, but there's A lot of room to personalize that. And I really, really like that advice because I think when, no matter what role we're talking about, when we show up and we're already shy or we're nervous or we're, you know, outside of our comfort zone because we're learning this new skill and then we, we pretend to do it the way we think we should do it. Like we, that is just, it's one. I don't think it's ever going to come off well because I think authenticity people value more than like perfection. Right. It's like if you come in and you're in your head and you're trying to like, remember, okay, I need to do this. This. It's like this robotic performance of being a person. Right. Instead of just. I think there's a lot of room for imperfection if you're genuine and you care, you know. So I really, really like that advice now and then. Yeah, go ahead. Something else that I want to add to that is in your mind, I feel like as a field service engineer, you're at the very bottom. And it can be stressful when you're working with the head of a very large company or a CEO or, you know, there's a lot of higher level people that, you know, we're in the room when things aren't going well and that can be stressful. And then also remembering that they're just people as well. So if you come into it with that mindset, then, you know, of course, having respect and being professional, but being yourself and remembering they are a human as well. Yeah, yeah. Honestly, there is a version of that lesson that I learned pretty early on in my career. And I learned it because I was doing what I just described. I was performing. I was like, really working hard to be the version of the role that I thought I should be. And I was intimidated because I was young and I, I didn't have a lot of experience and I was interacting with people that I just perceived as smarter than me, better than me, more senior than me, whatever, you know, it is. And after, you know, a bit of time, I realized, like, yes, they were all of those things, but to your point, they're also people. And I think when you accept the fact that, like in the example you just described, like, yes, they're maybe the CEO and you need to respect them, but you also have a skill set. There's a reason you're in that room. You have a skillset that they don't have, and you're there to help Solve a problem they can't solve. And so, you know, it's everyone belongs because we all bring something unique and complimentary to the table. And when you can accept that, it allows you to not. You don't have to be whatever you think you need to be. You just need to show up as yourself. And like you said, be respectful, be kind, and do the job that you're there to do. And when you kind of release that pressure and you let yourself be yourself, at least for me, that's when I started being successful, because I just think it allows you to connect with people on a level that is so much more real and more productive and that people can really appreciate. So, yeah, I think that's great advice. Okay, so you travel all the time and you mentioned that as a result, time management is super, super important. What have you learned works well in terms of managing your time. So for me, always having a little moment at the end of the week or at the beginning of the week to know exactly where I'm going, because for my traveling, it can be driving, flying, flying internationally. So I really need to be ready for that. And then also if you have multiple visits in a row and then for example, going from, let's say, like San Francisco and then going like, let's say Austin, you need to really, you know, get on site, finish your work, get the sign off, and then while you're there, also build that relationship and then get on the plane and then go to the next site. That can be pretty stressful. So knowing what you need to do is a lot of that early prep and then also being really aware of what exactly is going in with the site. So that's part of also building that relationship with the customer is sometimes you can show up and they may surprise you with a couple things that they didn't tell you through the email. And I noticed that usually happens when the customer doesn't have that strong bond with you yet. But then if you really foster that, then they're going to tell you ahead of time, oh, hey, I know you're coming for this, but can you also check on xyz? And so that will really prepare you when you're on site and on site having really good time management skills. So understanding and being honest with yourself of how long you think something is going to take, that. So for me, when I first started, I was really optimistic, like, oh, this will only take me this long. And then, you know, maybe it took me a bit longer, I had to stay later, which is fine. But then understanding what you're capable of and how long that will take. Yeah. So that you can be more realistic and stay on track. That makes sense. So I want to talk a little bit about the future. Right. So I don't want to make any assumptions, but I. There seems to be, in most instances, a point, at least these days, where someone who's in this role, who's traveling all of the time, gets to a point where they want to do something different. It's like, okay, can't do this forever. And this is a big, I think, transition process in field service industries, broadly. Right. Which is it used to be the norm to bring in field service engineers, and they would stay in this role for 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 years. Right. And that is not really the reality any longer. But organizations, I think, do themselves a service to, you know, offer different paths and options of progression for people to keep them within the business instead of people just, you know, I've had leaders complain to me like, we can't keep technicians or engineers for longer than six or 12 months. And then they just leave and go somewhere else. And I'm like, well, you know, what are the options for them to learn and grow and expand? Right. And so this is. It's a big transition because it puts more pressure on organizations to change that structure and how they operate and what they offer. What are your thoughts on where we are today and what's needed in the future? I don't know. Anything you want to share about you personally, where you think you might want to go with your career, but also this broader challenge of, you know, having strong talent in the front line that is no longer willing to just stay in one place for an indefinite amount of time and wanting to keep that talent but needing options. Right. Like the. The default historically for anyone that was an exceptional talent or didn't want to stay in that frontline role forever was to put them as a manager and a director, and they would move up that way. Everyone can't become that, you know, and not everyone is built to do that also. And we've learned that the hard way. So what are your thoughts on sort of how we as an industry give the frontline options for growth and progression? And what do you think maybe that could look like for you? Yeah, I think that's a really great point. Like I was saying earlier in the conversation, there always seems to be that trajectory for a role that everyone has in their mind. And so for field service, when I first started, that's what I saw. So I saw, you know, my Boss who had done the work that I am doing now for a very long time, then be promoted to manager and then, you know, people going up and up. But then it's also really important to remember that the front line, they're like, they're with the product every day, they're seeing things maybe the factory hasn't even seen. And so there, like you said, there needs to be some options. So maybe someone can go work in the factory, you know, part of a QC process. You know, they know what the instrument should look like on site so they could be the best person for that job or with product development. So earlier we were talking about how, you know, as the front line we're hearing all of these customer ideas and then some of us have very technical backgrounds before field service as well. And so, you know, taking those ideas back to R and D and then working in R and D, you know, I feel like there is a lot of options outside of, you know, just moving up that pre prescribed path that's there. And then also important to think about moving laterally. So with the industry that I'm in, there is also application specialists. So they're helping the customer, you know, really get the most out of the equipment. And so, you know, someone who, you know, might have been fixing things for so long and installing might feel inspired to learn more of the science and then also help the customers utilize the product to the fullest. So understanding that, you know, I had some conversations at the field service conference and some people were like, yeah, I really like the technical aspect, but now I just manage 29 people. And so it's really important to understand like where you want to go. So do you enjoy working with customers? Do you want to stay in the field? Do you really love the technology? Do you want to be with product development? Do you want to be a product manager? So there's so many options that I feel like we don't really think of in the field and they're not really presented because if someone is working well in the field, you want to utilize that skill and keep them going in the field. Yeah. But then also understanding nowadays people really want to grow and learn more skills and do new things, which is really fun for me. And then for me I feel like I have a lot of excitement about like next steps. So I'm not really sure exactly, but I could definitely see myself staying close to the technology. I do really like working with people and customers. And again, that's really what I love about the service role is, you know, getting to be in the middle of all of those different pieces and then having it all come together. Yeah, I think, you know, there are obviously some distinctions, industry to industry, on what this could or should maybe look like. But I think there are some. Some things that we know to be true. Right. We know that talent no longer wants to stay in the same role indefinitely. And so to your point, yes, as long as someone's happy there and they're doing a good job, you want to keep them there. But from a leadership perspective and an organization's perspective, you need to find that balance of how long will they be satisfied to do this role and what. What does motivate them, drive them, where might they be well served in the organization and what is the right time? Right. But we also know that that historical norm of field service, engineer to supervisor to manager to director to, you know, on up, it doesn't work for everyone. Leadership is so important in today's talent landscape. Like, I think that the impact of leadership is what's taking field service from what it was to what it's becoming. It's so crucial. And it means that you need really good leaders, like people that love leading, you know, and people that really care about motivating and growing other talent. And not everyone is built to do that. Not everyone is good at it. And so that can't just be the default. You need other places. And I think to your point, if organizations looked at the frontline role as a way to bring talent in and then grow and farm it out to all different functions of the business. You bring in people that, you know, have this opportunity to work alongside customers and learn so much and then, you know, spread that talent to different areas. It's just not the way that it's historically been done. And so, like I said before, it requires effort, you know, to figure out what that can look like and what those different options are. But it's really, really important because otherwise companies risk, you know, losing that talent to other organizations because, you know, no one's just going to stay still because the company wants the model that worked 10 years ago to still be working, you know. So, yeah, I think it's a really interesting topic. It's a very complex challenge to solve, but I think it's a really important one when we think about, you know, the. The future of work and how we keep good talent in. I want to go back just quickly to a point you made earlier on. So two points, actually. One is you mentioned a couple of your mentors and that, you know, they've had A big impact on your trajectory from education all the way to today. Do you have any advice on how to make the most of a mentor relationship? Yes. The first step is to just ask. I feel like a lot of people are hesitant to ask people to be their mentor. It can be very scary, especially because a lot of people think to have a mentor they need to be like two levels above 50. You. And so to ask someone that, for me, I was very nervous in the beginning, but again, just remembering that, you know, people are human and there's a lot of people that do want to mentor, that have a lot of experience in, like, many fields. So step one is just ask. And then the other thing is to be really responsible with the time. So if you are asking somebody to be the mentor, then you need to have a goal in mind and really understand who you're asking. So ask the right person to mentor you. Someone that you think is a good leader, someone that you respect how they work. It's really important. You can't just ask anybody because if you don't connect with their leadership style or, you know, their ways of working, then you may not learn as much as you could with somebody you're connecting with. Mm. Yeah. I really like the just ask, you know, like, what's the worst that could happen? They say no, you know, and more likely they say yes. And it's a good, good partnership. The other thing I wanted to end with is you mentioned to me, when we connected, you said, every year I re optimize my plans for the future, which I love that idea. So tell us what that means and what that process looks like for you. Yes. So during the between Christmas and New Year's, I'll call it hibernation. I always have a notebook for the year. And then I'll write down, you know, like 10 things that I thought went really well. And that can be with your career or, you know, just in your personal life, like, what really made me happy and inspired me and then taking those items and then really thinking about what I can do next year. And so I try to have a couple, you know, for like, friendships, relationships, work, hobbies, and then just making sure it's really well rounded because you can't just be focused on one thing, you know, you have to, you know, have your own hobbies and, you know, be around your family and friends. And sometimes for me, it's really easy to get focused on my career. And so reminding myself there is a balance is really important. So then I'll just make ideas for the next year and think about the things that I want to achieve. And then halfway through the year, it's coming soon, I'll, like, re look back at everything that I wrote and then also look back at the ones from the previous years and just really taking good notes and see, again, being honest with yourself of, like, okay, maybe I didn't achieve this one, but I achieved these other ones and more, and that was okay. And then for me, that really inspired me to, you know, do the next thing or, you know, made me closer with these family members or, you know, just really thinking about what is important to you at the end of the day. What I like about the way you describe this is that you start with the 10 things that made you really happy or the 10 things that went well, or the 10 things that you really liked about the time that's just passed. And so then when you're setting those goals, it's from the lens of, how do I create more of this good. It isn't often, you know, if you think of, like, New Year's resolutions, you're starting from a place of, what am I not doing? What am I not doing? Well, what am, you know, what do I have to get to instead of what do I love and how do I bring more of that in? So I think that's a really powerful way to look at it because otherwise we kind of get ourselves in this pessimistic loop of, like, then when you don't get to it, you know, it's like, I needed to do this. I didn't do it. When it's like, how do I create more of what I love? You know, then it's, I'll get to as much of it as I can. And it's all a net positive type of mindset. Yeah, I love that. Well, thank you so much, Marina. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing your journey and your insights and reflections. Elections. It's been wonderful. And yeah, I'm really happy we met in San Diego. Yeah, thanks, Sarah. It was great to meet you and great to talk today. And, you know, hopefully everyone will listen and then remember on the front line, like, just to really be yourself and, you know, everybody's human and thank you. I love that. All right. You can find more by visiting the home of frontline unscripted@futureof fieldservice.com the podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com as always, thank you for listening.