How to Enter and Succeed in a Field Where You Don't Have Deep Expertise (Yet)

Speaker A: Hi and welcome to the crackerjack Consulting Podcast. I'm your host, David A. Fields, and this episode is all about how to enter and succeed in a, uh, field where you don't have expertise. My guest on this episode is Zoe Ratanci, a co founder and president of six Sense Strategy Group. Six Sense Strategy Group is a boutique consulting company with a singular focus on insights and strategy for the life sciences industry. And that's what makes this really interesting because that's not where Zoe's background is. And so Zoe's going to lead us through his experience running 6th Sense and taking it into a, uh, completely different market than the one he grew up in professionally. Zoe, thanks so much for joining me today.

Speaker B: Hi. You're welcome. Looking forward to it.

Speaker A: So am I. Before we dive into what you've done with Six Sense, you and I obviously know each other fairly well and I've had a great opportunity to work with you for a bit. But I'm guessing most listeners don't know about sixth sense. So give us kind of the 32nd version of sixth sense. Just a journey, roughly where you are, how big you are, that kind of thing.

Speaker B: We are a boutique consultancy. We're based out of Toronto, Canada, although most of our work, about 95% I'd say, is in the States and most of it concentrated in Boston where, uh, there is a life science hub. Our focus is clients, uh, who are fairly new to the space. So they're about to launch usually their first therapy ever or a brand new one. Usually first therapy. They're operating on investor dollars, they haven't generated revenue and we help them get their drugs to the market, uh, mostly by understanding doctors needs, patients needs, healthcare providers needs, uh, so when we help them design strategy to support a successful launch and our size, uh, as you know, we've been growing. We've probably doubled in six months now in terms of people, we're at 20 on our way to about, uh, probably 23 or 24 in the next couple weeks.

Speaker A: Right. Hiring as quickly as you can find them.

Speaker B: That's right.

Speaker A: Perfect. Thank you for that background. Now as I mentioned at the top, and as you've said, you're working with these, uh, life sciences firms that are in this launch date. So it's really kind of a quite specific part of the industry where I would think deep knowledge is needed and yet that's not your background. So tell me, and tell the listeners a little bit like, what's the background and uh, why did you go into a space that's different from where you started. And how could a consultant that's not an expert possibly succeed in a, uh, completely different space?

Speaker B: Good question. I've been asked by a lot of scientists in the past, people thinking of coming to workforce mostly. So my background, as you know, is I have my mba, I did it in marketing and I worked for Kraft Foods as a marketer for a number of years. So essentially marketing and selling Kraft dinner. Which begs the question, how'd you get into science? I didn't go step, ah, out to get into science. What I stepped out with was um, one, I knew it couldn't work for anybody so I had to do my own thing. Number two is I built some valuable knowledge working at Kraft, which was that I love strategy and strategy, you know, everyone's got their gift. Mine happens to be I can see through a mess and kind of find a way through. And I love doing it. It's what gets my brain going. What happened was early on we had an opportunity where somebody from life sciences got a chance to see our work in a public workshop that we had run. And he said the work that you do around strategy, uh, is well entrenched in the packaged goods and industry. But we're never taught it in life sciences. We come out of the field as sales reps or medical science liaisons were brought in and nobody ever teaches us how to do any of this strategy stuff. And so he said, would you come and work with my team? And I said, sure. And I remember he said, he uh, used a word that I didn't even know the meaning of at the time. It was efficacy. I'd never heard the word before. It's common word effectiveness is really what

Speaker A: it means for Kraft Mac and cheese dinners. Efficacy isn't a key metric.

Speaker B: No, just keep the orange the right color and uh, you should be good. I think the main thing on craft dinners, don't screw it up, just let it run itself. And so I guess kind of the rest is history. We got our start, uh, which in and of itself was a milestone, as we realized later, because most pharma companies, this was Ah, AstraZeneca at the time, they don't let companies in who don't have knowledge or experience in the life sciences. It's a very insulated industry and they don't allow you in. And so we realized very quickly if for us to stay in here, we better start upping our game. And uh, so Tom, uh, my co founder and I, we probably did the equivalent studying of a PhD to start to learn science and understand Diseases and disease states. And that's kind of how we entered into the life sciences.

Speaker A: Okay, so some really interesting pieces there, which I want to break down just a little bit. One is, you know, in some ways, your experience mirrors my own, parallels my own when I was with a boutique firm and then came up, went up through partner, and I created almost a practice inside the practice, because we were all focused. We were in what was trade marketing, which is something you would know from your craft days. That was all about consumer products companies. And a company, actually, I think it was. It was either Lexmark or ITT or Kodak the time, said, you know, that's some interesting ideas you have. Can you apply it out side? And so I pivoted to this completely non cpg. I ran all the non cpg. For me, there's a lesson in there, what I heard, which is, you didn't say, you know what? I want to get into the pharma business or the life science business. You followed the market. The market said to you, come here, and you went, okay, I can go there. Is that fair? Is that kind of reasonable?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's absolutely fair. And in fact, it was actually, we, uh, got advice early on. I like the way you put it because I think it's probably more apt, which is follow the market. Somebody had said to us, follow the money. I don't like that term. I really like the way you described it, because it wasn't about the money. It was about there's an exciting opportunity here for us to do something in a field we know nothing about. And as an entrepreneur, I'm sure you'd be the same as I want to do something that excites me, that stimulates me, that gets my head moving, my heart pumping. And learning science was the furthest thing that I knew how to do. We followed the market. And what you have to understand is, as a Canadian company, our options are pretty limited, as it is in consulting in packaged goods for what we were doing, like strategy consulting. The market is tiny and a lot of companies were becoming, uh, all that work was happening out of the US not much opportunity for us as we looked at the life science industry even there. Although our start was in Canada, we also realized how small that opportunity was because companies aren't coming here to launch that much. A lot of it's directed from the US There are companies at the time, there were some launching, but the market was changing. And so as part of following the market, we had to not only pivot to life sciences, but Realize very quickly we better start, uh, working in the US because that's where the work that we do is actually going to be required.

Speaker A: Okay, so you recognized, you know what? There's more market. There's more market there. There's a need, a desire for stuff we could do in life sciences. And, uh, also, by the way, there's a bigger need, more opportunity in the U.S. but you mentioned something which is kind of important, which is that the life science industry, like many industries, is quite insular. And the research is pretty clear that the first thing that clients look for is industry expertise. So, you know, how did you get in? It sounded like someone came to you. Uh, I'm curious about two things. One is how would you advise someone else who feels like they have to make a left turn into another industry? How do you think they could penetrate it based on your experience? And then how did you expand? Because having done One project for AstraZeneca does not make you all of a sudden an industry expert. You can't suddenly tell people, oh, yeah, we've got years and dozens of clients. So how did you do that?

Speaker B: I would say there's two things, and they answer both your questions. One is, never give them a reason to doubt you, and I'll tell you more about that. And number two is when you're there, make the most of the opportunity that you have. Never doubt. Never give them a reason to doubt you. There's a few things, uh, under that. One was we had a sales coach at the time, and selling, it's a real art, as you know, David. I mean, I think we're aligned on an approach to selling. There's no hard selling here. I don't flog my wares because then I'm no different than the next guy doing consulting. The approach that he taught us, actually, I wouldn't say he taught it to us. I think what he did was he clarified what was in our heads, which was rather than going in and telling people what to do, which leads to a thousand questions about how good you are at it. Go in and show them. Get them to take you where they need to go. When we were going into meetings with people, we weren't talking about everything we could do. We were asking them questions about their strategy, about their business, and the questions they hadn't been asked before. And that's what actually put everything else at rest. Nobody asked us about our science. They were focused on what we could bring them, which was a strategy. So we took the conversation about science away. That was part of it. But the other part was, and this is something we've evolved over the years, is we also, as we started to get more into these companies, if I got a call from David Fields, who was the GM of, uh, pharma company X, and said, hey, I want to talk to you, I would spend a week learning about his, not only his company, about the science, about the disease state, everything I could possibly learn. So that when I walked in there, if anything was asked, I had an answer. And if I could answer the first two questions, I wouldn't get any more because they'd know, oh, this guy knows the science. Okay, let's talk about the business. So that's. The first part is how do you, uh, do it? The second part was, when you're there, take full advantage of that opportunity. So the way that we grew our business, David, was when we got in the room for a strategy session, we put on a show. And I'm not talking about fluff, I'm talking about we were guiding 50, 60 people through a strap planning process that resulted in five strategies that they were all aligned on for the first time they'd ever been aligned. That led to them each going, hey, could you come to my function? So medical or commercial or sales or whatever, and, and help me do the same thing there? And that's how it built. Um, never give them a reason to doubt you. And when you're there, take advantage of the opportunity to do your best work. Put everything you have into it.

Speaker A: Yeah. So that's what I'd written down here. This. Do your best work. And also it sounds like part of it is do your best work and make sure your best work is exposed broadly. If you're inside a client, make sure it's exposed broadly inside the client. I'm going to guess that many of those folks that saw your work, that were part of those early strategy sessions went to other companies and then pulled you along. Is that what happened? Or am I.

Speaker B: Did I go, that is what happened. But, uh, that's what happened. One of the things that I think is really important for people starting out today is I'm going to reflect on a story, quick one for you, that I think will help people understand this a little bit better. When I was starting out, I wanted nothing more than to get a group of CEOs in a room and be able to show them through a dialogue, through a conversation, a facilitated conversation, how good I was at what I was able to do. And I got frustrated because there's no way I didn't know Them, I couldn't get them in a room. Why would they come and listen to me? Well, fast forward 18 years. Those are the things that are happening now. Now I'm sitting with entire leadership teams and I'm sometimes have to pinch myself going, oh, these guys are listening to what I'm saying. The reason I'm telling you this is a valuable lesson for people. Just because you think you have the gift doesn't mean you're ready to showcase it yet. That, that's one. So you got it. You got to practice the craft, you got to learn the industry. You got to earn your stripes to get the opportunity to sit with those people. But number two is, this is the one I try and teach all my people. That person who today is nothing more than an associate on a brand somewhere. In 10 years they're gonna be a senior person. In 15 years they could be, uh, the head of operations ahead of commercial. And in 18 years they could be a general manager. So if you are able to meet them now and show them how good you are, then you're going to be sitting in those rooms with them. Because guess who's calling you 15 years from now? The same people that used to be associates and grew up with you. And that is something that it's like, don't forget those people. It's not about the GMs. Today. Today it might be about some more junior people. Tomorrow they'll be the GMs.

Speaker A: Okay, so certainly there's a play the long game aspect to this, uh, especially with, with regard to relationships. Let's go back though, because you said, well, if you're coming in to see me because I run pharmaceutical X, which of course is true. All listeners should know this. I'm the CEO of Pharma. What is it?

Speaker B: Pharmaceutical X. Pharma X? Yep.

Speaker A: Pharma X. You said you just researched the heck out of it. Now probably there are a lot of listeners who right there went no way. And how much is a lot? How much do you invest, how much people time, how many man hours do you invest before you even know whether I'm a, um, real prospect, whether I could really be a good client?

Speaker B: There are some things we can do ahead of time, just through the conversations. And David, you've helped me with a few of these too, which is, you know, how do you get a sense of whether the client's for real or not? I find often when they're calling us, which is 90% of the time or more, probably more, they're a real client, they've kind of been vetted already because somebody's referred them in or we've worked with them in the past. You can get a sense of tire kicking by. Uh, to me, I get a sense when somebody doesn't have the time to answer my questions about their project. I know right away this is going to be a waste of time. Maybe I'm getting pulled in for an rfp. They just need another, uh, quote on the table. I really can get it when I can sense the energy in a phone call and a level of commitment to want to work with us. Also, uh, often it comes out of the clarity. Are they clear on the project at least, and the outcome of what they're trying to accomplish? Now, I'm not saying that they're always clear, but for me, I can see there's a line between. I've got a sense of what I'm trying to do, and I have no idea. Somebody told me to call and find some people who can do this work. So that's kind of how I vet. I bet is really through that call. And I'm not going to waste a lot of time on the ones that aren't, um, going to pay.

Speaker A: Got it. So we're going to look for a partner, someone who's treating you like a partner as opposed to someone who's just coming in. Are you a vendor? Can you do this? How much? One of my clients sent an email to me, said, how do I respond? Someone literally just wrote them a note. Can you do this? How long? How much? I mean, it's like, okay, no. So we're looking for a partner. We're looking for folks that have some clarity around what they need because they're more likely to move forward. They're not still in that really sort of rough overall, where should I even go? Stage. And then those folks you say, well, if you meet those screens, then we'll invest in you up front. Now, how much, how much do you invest? How deep do you dive before you walk into that meeting?

Speaker B: I can tell you I'm walking into every one of those meetings with the expectation I'm coming out with a client. I'm not even debating it in my mind. So the kind of effort that we put in and, uh, I'll tell you exactly what we do because we actually have a process around this. I'm not walking in with a 50, 50 chance. If I do in my head, then I'm going to prepare 50%. I'm walking in with the intention of walking out with the client. And so what do we do? A lot of people say the research companies, and they do, but that's not enough. So what do we do? If I know that your company is in the. In say they're in multiple sclerosis. I know that they've got drugs and multiple sclerosis. We have something I developed probably about, oh, uh, God, I would say 12 or 13 years ago. And I called it a dossier, which was I needed to know everything about the disease from the epidemiology to the pathophysiology to who the competitors are, who the doctors are that play in this, how the disease progresses, how the drugs work. This is about, ah, on average 15 to 20 page document. And I needed to understand the science. It was like I already landed the client and I'm walking in to have my first meeting. And what I would do is I would either early on I would do it myself. And as we started to hire people, I get them to do. To this day, they still do it. As soon as somebody calls, I'll make a call to one of our team members. I need a dossier on X. Then I get them to present it to me and that's my opportunity to ask them the questions.

Speaker A: Okay, so hold on just a moment. So you're using your team, uh, you have folks. And this would be, again, super helpful, I think, for a lot of listeners. How do you maintain, how do you balance having your folks work on that versus utilization and making sure they're constantly, you know, you're getting the maximum value out of that asset, that individual on current work, on billable work.

Speaker B: That's a whole challenge unto itself. Uh, is getting, getting that managed. I think I don't have the secret sauce for that one. What I, you know, I don't have a magic around that. I mean, basically what I do is I look around to see who I think has a little bit of time to put one of these together. For me and team. We have a structure. So some of it now is just sort of cut and paste and put information into spots. But honestly, it's just, okay, who's got time for this? We got this meeting and everyone understands the importance of a new client. And I think everyone knows when I'm going in, I'm coming out with a cl. So let's get this guy ready to go.

Speaker A: So if they're really busy, they might m. Want to do a bad job because they don't want you to come out with another plan like Zoe. Stop landing so many clients.

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, that's right. Don't bring us anymore.

Speaker A: Okay, so how many? Um, and not to get too detailed, but again, I think this is important. How many man hours do you expect your people to devote to developing a dossier for you so that you walk in as an expert on the business from the get go?

Speaker B: Yeah. So I think the dossiers take us about two days. So, um, let's say 16 hours or so. So it could be 16 to 20 hours. Yeah.

Speaker A: That's a fairly substantial investment.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: And then they present it to you. You ask all the questions so that you educate yourself.

Speaker B: Yeah. Let me be clear about one thing on this, David, because a lot of people, when they prepare for a sales meeting, they'll go to the website and read it. I'm not talking about going to the website and reading it. That's the smallest thing we need to do. I'm, uh, talking about actually diving into a therapeutic area, understanding science. I get about 3% of the information from the website. It comes from scientific papers. I mean, we're committed. We're committed and we need to demonstrate that. Who doesn't want a partner walking in that shows how committed they are to your business? They come in probably no more than you do, because if you think about who's hiring us now, I've got a medical director who called me up. Uh, he was five days into his new job at a new company in his estate he never worked in. When I showed up to that meeting, I probably had more knowledge on his business than he did. Right?

Speaker A: No doubt. There's no doubt about it. We used to do this back when I was part of a boutique. We would also, as part of the similar process, we even created dossier, which I think is a terrific idea. We would interview customers. So we would often interview, uh, uh, prospects, customers, of course, keeping it blind and not, not doing in any way that would get us in trouble. And one of the things we found is that prospect clients, executives always want direct feedback. If you can say this is what your customers think or the people that you're going to end up selling to, that works out. And I don't know, I don't think that would quite apply in the, um, industry you're in.

Speaker B: So I would say we don't do a lot of RFPs, because we don't have to, fortunately. But I have done a couple. And one of the ones that we did, that's exactly what we did. Uh, we called up doctors to find out how they thought about a therapeutic space. And that's the kind of stuff that Sort of blows people away. Like, you went that far. And we actually, again, similar to our meetings, I don't go in there and sell anything. If I've got information, I'm going to tell them what I think they should do. And that's when they realize I've actually put some thought. Don't tell them you can do strategy. Show them the strategy.

Speaker A: Right. So part of. So I'm going to, uh, bring us back around. This has been amazing, but the idea of, can you go into an industry where you don't have experience? I mean, can you go from craft dinners to multiple sclerosis, uh, drugs? And it sounds like the answer is yes, if one, the market need is there and so the market is calling you there. Two, you are willing to really invest. That's been, uh, a lot of your secret sauce is you've just invested deeply. You didn't put your toe in, you dove in. Is that fair? Or did you kind of inch your way in at the beginning?

Speaker B: No, I mean, I think once we got there and we saw that we could do it. It's amazing when you put a focus on a business, you'll know, having worked with many people, that when you start, you kind of do anything to make sure you can feed the baby. And so we did. But an incredible amount of focus arrived when we made the decision that we were going to focus on life sciences. So were we committed? Yeah, we were. But, uh, the minute we decided it was going to be life sciences and nothing else, it was like a cloud lifted and the sun started shining in. Because now we knew who we were targeting. We knew exactly who to hire into the business. We knew how to set up for meetings, uh, we knew how to do background research. We knew exactly what to sell them that they needed. It was just this amazing time where we were like 10 years in or eight years into the business, and there we go. Now we got it. Now we've got to focus. So when you say dip our toe, that first AstraZeneca client was dipping our toe, I guess. But then we realized what was going to be required and we committed to it.

Speaker A: Got it. And good for you. And obviously it's done well, I would imagine. Also, the fact that you are in such a narrow area allows you to pull together these dossiers more efficiently. It might take four days if you were all over the place and not be as good as.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely, it does. And here's a funny tidbit. On the end of those dossiers, I actually turn those into a product that we now sell to our clients in a much more robust form. It's a three month research assignment. We write them, we call it the textbook for their disease state. So when I showed a client what I'd done internally, they wanted something like that for themselves. So I love that.

Speaker A: So I'm going to learn enough to be able to win you as a client and then I'm going to sell you all my learning, which is a, uh, that's a beautiful thing. So this has been absolutely incredible, I think really terrific insights. If someone, again, you know, they, there are a lot of industries right now as we sit right now. There are industries that have just disappeared. There's no business. And if someone is, uh, thinking, I have to pivot, I'm going to have to go someplace new. Scary as hell. I've been in the aerospace industry. There is no aerospace industry right now. I've got to get someplace else. Maybe it's digital something. Is there any other piece of advice that you would give them and say, look, here's what you need to do?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think the big piece of advice is you've got to figure out the thing that you're good at. And it's not industry. If it's, you know, if it's industry, then, then you're hooped. But I gotta believe that a good consultant, for example, they've got something that they offer to an industry. You've gotta figure out what you've got on offer. And if you, all you talk about is the industry, then you're not actually focused on your offer. So are you offering systems to an industry? Are you offering strategy? Are you offering leadership skills? Whatever it is that you're offering to that industry, that's the thing that you're selling. And for us it was strategy. And we realized there's an industry that needed what we had. They didn't care about our background, they just needed what we had. And so the advice to people is as you pivot, think about what it is that you're bringing to another industry. And the industry knowledge is irrelevant. It's the engine under the hood. That's what you've got to focus on.

Speaker A: That is so interesting in part because you've brought up this really great distinction, which is to win in this business. It absolutely helps a huge amount to be focused on an industry. However, you actually lose in this business if you make your firm only about the industry. So that is terrific, Zoe. If folks want to learn more about you or if they have a healthcare, uh, client that they think you'd be great for or they just want to partner with you in some way. What's the best way for them to get in touch and have a conversation with you?

Speaker B: Well, there's two ways they can email me. So it's Zo Z O for Americans or Z O at 6 cents s I x s e n s e inc dot com. Or of course you can phone. I love phone calls. So 416-879-7020.

Speaker A: Perfect. I'll, uh, put those in the show notes. Uh, so all of you who are listening will get a chance to do that. Stay tuned to hear about the prize that goes along with this episode. So thanks again. This has just been a, uh, fascinating and for me, a wonderful discussion. I really appreciate you joining me today.

Speaker B: Yeah, thanks for having me. It was fun to talk about it.

Speaker A: Excellent. Take care.

Speaker B: Thanks.

Speaker C: The crackerjack Consulting Podcast is produced by the David A. Fields Consulting Group, where you'll find everything you need to build a more successful consulting firm. Download this Episode's prize@crackerjackconsultingpodcast.com We'd love to get your feedback and hear about any consulting firm leaders you think we should have on the show. If you'd like to appear on the show or know someone whose insights would be helpful to others in the consulting industry, please send us an email at. Ah, infodavidafields, uh dot com. That's infodavidafields. Uh dot com. Let a friend know about the show and don't forget to leave a review on itunes or Google Play. And if you subscribe, you'll be notified about every new episode. Make sure to tune into the next episode. An exciting interview that started with an alarming medley of blood curdling screams, but our audio engineer has edited it so it sounds like two people talking normally. At any rate, I'm, um, Robin Epstein and our host is David A. Fields. Thanks for listening.