Anjali Rameshbabu: Designing Work to Foster Social Connection and Well-being

Host: Welcome to another special episode of our Work now and in the Future Tools for Thinking podcast. Our guest today is Anjali Ramesh Babu from the Oregon Institute of Occupational Health Sciences. Anjali is a health social psychologist with a focus on individual and workplace strategies for social connection, health and well being. Anjali's research focuses on designing work environments that uh, reduce loneliness and chronic illness by fostering social connection and well being, including a project on using communal meal breaks to increase connectedness among environmental service workers in healthcare. Additional materials can be found at www.aalto.fi futurework and then choose podcast. And without further ado, here is Anjali. Hey everyone.

Anjali Ramesh Babu: My name is Anjali Ramesh Papu. Um, I am a uh, uh, health psychologist by training and um, I am passionate about all things social connection, um, as a way to move past our loneliness epidemic and um, understand how social connection really contributes to our health and well being. Um, so I'm interested in uh, um I focus on a few aspects of it. I'm interested in more the multi level ways that we can bring change, um, for social um, connection and social health and well being. Uh, as a behavior um, change specialist I'm interested in how we can uh, motivate behavior change at the individual level. I'm also interested in how we can design work for well being. Work is we spend um, a good part of our waking time at work and so what happens at work invariably impacts uh, our health and well being. So how can we design work itself to promote social connection and positive social relationships on the job? Um, and then how do we look at all of this and how do we approach social health and well being, uh, from really equity focused and cross cultural um approaches as well. So that's something that I'm interested in. A transdisciplinary and systems approach to bringing about positive change for social health. So in today's talk, um, I'll share a little bit about the importance of social health and then we'll move on to maybe sharing a few examples from my own research in social connection. And so before moving on to um, social connection and how we can um, promote it, we could first start with understanding the importance of social health and what is social health. And if we were looking at it from a definition standpoint, social health is the adequate quantity and quality of relationships we have in our lives. And this is something that um, each one of us is different and if we feel like we have enough social connections in our, our um life to meet our social, individual social needs. Um, now social connection is the type of connection you have, you know, so if I asked you to think about the people in your life who you feel closest to, you would likely think of the people who have, you know, deep, meaningful relationships with you. And other connections may be less deep, but they still play a different role, like professional connections or acquaintances. So these are the different types of social connections you have. Now we all have varying levels of social health needs. And when we don't have adequate connections in our life and we want those social connections, then that is when we feel like we are in a state of loneliness. So loneliness is the state of wanting social connections but experiencing this inadequacy in our life. Why is this important? Because studies have shown that, um, loneliness can bring about a number of different health issues. Um, and I think before we move into the, the specific health outcomes of it, social context and social connection is one of the key drivers of our health and well being. Um, and so, um, the other four recognized determinants of well being. Social determinants of health of well being are education, access and quality, um, access to good healthcare, um, access to good housing and, um, secure, um, housing and neighborhood living, um, of course, access to financial stability and then social connection, social community and context. And this is also improved when we think about a, um, you know, our uh, experiences at work and mental health at work. This is also recognized as one of the key components. Um, social connection is contributing to mental health in the workplace right up there, along with, you know, how you feel about mattering at work, um, whether you have good work life harmony, whether you have good opportunity for growth on your job, and whether you consider your workplace or your daily work experience good for you in some ways. And so there is a connection and community are important. And um, and so, you know, which then begs the question, you know, we're talking so much about social health and social connection and loneliness. Why are we talking so much about it today? Because we ask ourselves, are we lonely and is this an issue? And it turns out yes. So if you look at Finland, for example, at least half of Finns have indicated that they have experienced loneliness at some point of time and still continue to experience this. Um, in the United States, for example, uh, where I come from, one in two people, um, are lonely. Sometimes there's a one in three, the statistics vary, um, and one in four globally according to the World Health Organization. So with the prevalence of loneliness, um, being this high, we are actually in the midst of a global, um, loneliness crisis. So we call it loneliness epidemic. So why, um, is this such a Concern for us because we know from um, many years of research that um, chronic loneliness can impact, um, us physically and mentally. And this can happen through many different psycho biobehavioral mechanisms. So if we look at the individual level, right, um, people who are lonely have an increased risk for mortality. Um, and people who are lonely also tend to have less healthy behaviors. So if you're lonely, you're less likely to go out and seek, you know, the social support you need, which you know is important for health. Um, you are likely to, you know, exercise less, for example, get out less, for example. And all of these in, you know, in return have um, in turn have um, impacts for other health behaviors as well. Uh, you talk about health outcomes, um, loneliness can increase the risk for cardiovascular disease and stroke and mental health concerns like anxiety and depression and increase the risk for suicide as well as, and cognitively, um, it increases the risk for dementia. Uh, and this is something that we found at global levels as well. Isolation can increase the risk for dementia. Now let's move from an individual, um, perspective to work, right? And this is something that doesn't stay at an individual level. It impacts various levels of society and work is an example of that. So at work we um, observe that um, when there is loneliness in the workforce, there is greater absenteeism. People who are lonely just tend to, um, tend to stay home, tend to not come to work. Uh, and then there's a higher turnover, um, and then there are studies that are starting to come out that show that um, increased loneliness in the workforce is linked to lower job performance, uh, job satisfaction, a higher risk of burnout and also, um, less fuel, like worse, um, worker manager relationships. And now let's think even bigger, um, globally, how does loneliness impact the society at large? And if we think about that, lonely students, let's start early on across the lifespan, right? Lonely students are more likely to drop out of school. And when we drop out of school, you have diminished future prospects for career and financial security, uh, and lack of education. And we know that as we think back to, uh, the main determinants of health and well being, not having good education means not having less and at least in some societies, um, having less financial stability, which impacts your ability to care well for your, our own health. And so just in general, it diminishes future prospects for your career and your life. Um, it also, you know, the prolonged chronic and widespread loneliness, it can lead to low overall productivity, um, and absenteeism, as I mentioned, at the work level, but really at a larger level it has economic impacts, right? This turnover impacts, employment rates. Lonely um, people are more likely to as we've um, we've learned from the, from m. The science that it can impact our health and well being. So healthcare costs go up and which again has these economic impacts. And from uh, if we think about sort of lonely populations, not unlike what we're facing these days, um, they really lead to fractured communities in general. And so it's really all pointing toward a society that is far from thriving. So loneliness is not good at an individual level, at a work level, at societal levels, at many different levels, um, for um, a thriving society. And so what needs to be done right? So for change to happen it needs to happen at all levels of society. So we have to figure out how to improve social connection and how to promote social health at various levels as well. So the individual level, um, this would mean educating, providing good education on the importance of social health. It's also helping people at an individual level identify loneliness and what connection, social connection means to them. And this is also I think important to point out that you know, we all can be, we can want to be alone. That doesn't mean you're lonely, right? Loneliness only comes where you crave the social connection. You want it in your life but you don't have access to it. And so helping people identify what their social needs are and helping them identify what social connection means to them and articulate it helps us reach um, uh, ways that, or identify ways that we can improve that. Um, and just like with any other behavior change, social behaviors can be taught as well. So and this comes down to behavior change skills. How can we apply what we already know from the scientific literature, um, on evidence based strategies for improving social behavior. So teaching goal setting, teaching um, implementation intentions we call them, where you try to make a plan, you try to identify your goals and you try to um, engage in them and then try to understand how to problem solve and create these social connections in your life. And then you know, in social, social behavior and social health is a very interpersonal um, process. So how can you involve the people in your life, just the close connections you have to promote social health and well being. Now moving on to work in societal aspects of it. You know the one thing that is important to note that social health by, in you know, by definition and inherently is very connected with the society you're a part of.

Host: Right?

Anjali Ramesh Babu: You're social environment. And so it's not good enough to say let's bring change about, let's bring about change in the individual level, you also have to consider your social environment and how um, helpful how feasible that is to help you create those social connections. So let's take the world of work for example. And so uh, when you talk about change, um, change would be one, recognizing the link between social health and work outcomes. As we've talked about, um, just a few minutes ago, we know that loneliness can cause outcome absenteeism and uh, lower retention and low job satisfaction. And all of these are very real work outcomes. And so how then can we design work to promote social health? So understanding the daily work experience, identifying you know, what work looks like, and I think this is a really pertinent, a pertinent topic now within, with this really drastically uh, increased um, prevalence of remote working and hybrid working and uh, so how do we address that? And you know, even if you do come to work every day, you can still be lonely as well. So you can, or even if you're, if you don't consider yourself lonely, you can still lack social connections at work. So then how can we promote social health at work? By allowing opportunities and creating opportunities to build these meaningful deep social connections in the workplace? Because for many of us we meet our friends, we meet our colleagues and then we make friends, um, with our colleagues. Um, and even if you don't go at the level of that deep friendship, you still need good working relationships with your co workers and your supervisors and the leaders in order to have a um, good productive, engaged work environment. And so you would also then by extension you would address the culture of social well being at work. Is this something that your social, that your organization values, for example? Um, and then do they consider how an important consideration here is also how work and life outside of work are linked. And so if you are having um, a bad day at work, that is bound to impact you at home, and that goes vice versa. If you're having a bad day outside of it, that impacts your work as well. But we know of course from decades of research that having social support systems and having good social connections in our life can help us deal with those stresses. And so one it's designing work to be healthy, but the other part of it is also having a good social community and that context to really buffer the impacts of those stress, um, when you need it to. And then having, and at the work level also understanding what the organizational culture and the day to day practices and policies are, these are the levels at which you can bring about positive change. Um, and then from a societal level, if we're trying to Address the need for change. You know, you address how to create a culture of openness. How do we create a culture of being able to talk about loneliness and to remove the stigma around it. And then, and to create a culture of connection means prioritizing that in the way we design our works spaces, design our public spaces, design our social systems. Um, and we know also that we have a varying um, level of social need across the lifespan. And understanding how those needs shift and change and vary will also allow us to develop more tailored interventions um, across the lifespan. And then it's also important to consider the health um, and socioeconomic costs and safety costs. So this is something that if we have divided isolated populations, we're just not strong in order to deal with external crises that come. So it is really very much loneliness at a really large scale. If we look at it, um, can be a high risk proposition for the national agenda as well. And so it's in the nation's interest to promote a socially healthy um, society and country. Um, and I think as I mentioned before, whatever you do right, we're not, we're, we have to involve experts from different fields. This can be psychologists and sociologists and economists and architects. Because all of these hands go toward creating meaningful um, holistic solutions that can really address those needs for change and the type of change you need at each level of society. So you need a lot of cross sector collaboration. So that is you know, one um, kind of really broad picture of how we can bring about change for social well being. Um, and then in the time that we have left, um, I'd love to share some of my own work on social um, connection. Um, ah, so for example, um, I designed uh, in one project that I just completed, uh, was I looked at how work itself can be designed for social connection in the United States. Um, and I specifically looked at environmental service workers and mental service workers are janitors in healthcare. Um, and if we look at the work of a janitor in healthcare, you know, we know that they have a lot of life and job stress. There is a higher risk for loneliness and disparity in occupational health outcomes. Um, so let's see, it's very physically taxing. They're on their feet a lot. They also sometimes work in isolation in different parts of a hospital, making sure that all these inpatient spaces are clean, um, and safe for patients and other professionals alike. Um, this is not a particularly high paid um, job and so there is some job insecurity. There's also low um, pay and very often there is this feeling of being undervalued, I think compared to other um, healthcare professionals. So all of this sort of increases the risk for um, life and job stress and the risk for loneliness as well. So how can we improve connection? Because having that social support and increasing that social support at the level of the workplace can help to buffer um, um some of these stresses. And even if these groups are, even if these workers are not lonely, it helps to improve their social health in general. Um, and so when I was looking at how we can tackle um, change at the work design level, um, with the. Some key considerations were the high demand work environment. So this is pretty high um, demand work. There is a big need for rest and connection with workers. And then also remember that I think when we think about um, when we want to develop uh, interventions and we want to conduct intervention research, one of the key considerations is you don't want the intervention itself to become burdensome for participants, for the workers, because they already have enough life and work burdens and you don't want them to add um, you don't want to add to that. And so we wanted something um, that could be designed that was practical, simple and sustainable. And this happened to be the 30 minute mandated lunch break. And so all environmental service workers, um, uh, have access to a 30 minute. It's a mandated meal break on the job. And we thought that if we could utilize this meal break, um, to make it a communal meal break where people would come and eat together, then that may be an integral chance that would um, help them, you know, spend time with their colleagues and start to build some relationships. And the other important consideration was that it could be integrated into it, into the daily world design. So it's not, it's simple. You know, you already have a mechanism for it. You're not creating an additional um, intervention component or education or training or any of those. It's just really something that they can come and experience. Um, and then also it would need, because it's a work design intervention, it would need um, um, the workplace leaders to take an initiative in it. And another reason why this seemed um, appropriate for the population we looked at uh, is that typically workers, um, uh, evs or environmental service workers tended to eat alone. So when they choose to take a break whenever they want, after they finished a few tasks, they had the autonomy to say, okay, I've done this much work, now I'll take off and I'll go and sit somewhere and eat. And it turns out that um, for uh, the participants in the study as well they didn't really coordinate with their coworkers. And so this was an opportunity for us to be able to do that. Um, and so there were three aims to this pilot project. Uh, one was to identify the current meal break, uh, practices. So how do they take their meal breaks? Um, and then would they even want a communal meal break? So the last thing we would want to do is to force, force somebody to use their break, um, to come and sit together with somebody else if they didn't want to do that. Um, and so we asked them in AIM one, we said, well, would you want something? Would you want a communal meal break? And it turns out that they did want that. They welcomed this chance to rest and socialize and get to know their co workers because they didn't really have any chances to do that, uh, on their job. Um, and then, hence what we asked, and then we spoke with Lee to say, okay, how can this be possible? Because on a practical level, because this would, um, so having a communal meal break would mean taking, um, employees off the floor in a really high, um, fast paced, high needs environment. Right. Uh, in a hospital setting. And so it would be up to the leaders to sort of coordinate who can take their breaks at the same time so that they can still have coverage on the floor when they need it. So a lot of the little, um, details and getting into the weeds would um, be necessary to design, um, you know, a work design intervention. But it is possible. And then when we got all of those, um, uh, perspectives from workers and we got perspectives from the leaders, then we then pilot tested this communal need break for a period of three months, um, and offering it on three days of the week. Um, and we did this because these were the days that they could, um, that seemed practical to test this out. Um, and so what did the implementation look like for the EVS leaders? Um, they had to identify a location where, where multiple people could come together. They had to coordinate the schedules of the workers. They could take the lunch and um, take their lunch break at the same time. And then they would also actually communicate and send out the daily page to these workers to say, okay, your communal meal break, um, session is on, so please come to it. And then, uh, what did participation look like for the EVS workers? They just had to show up. And so that really was very intentionally, uh, kept at a low burden, um, level, participatory burden as we call it. Um, and so that we wanted to see how making it as easy as possible, um, for the person to come and join a meal Break. And then we did um, some post feedback. We tested this out for three months and then asked workers what they got and also asked leaders. Um, and for the staff it um, looked like they enjoyed it. They said this is um. For example, one person said the study improved my relationship with my coworkers and we were able to just take some time out to discuss our problems and share our experience. Experiences and also gives each other a perspective of what the other person's going through. Um, and then so another person said it helped me um, open up and then it helped me spend more time with others and get comfortable spending um, time with each other and getting to know my employer, my co workers. Um, and so there was some really positive um, aspects to it which is promising for us. But we also, there were also some challenges to it. And so we asked well if, if for the workers who didn't attend, we said well why didn't you? What was the problem there? And they said that the main reason they couldn't attend is because they you know, work ended up coming in the way. Um, and so. And the break that they wanted to take a break at the time but they couldn't do it. Um, and so this is when we had to go back to the drawing board with the leaders to kind of figure out how can we make sure that these are. These opportunities that we say we provide are consistently in fact, um, um feasible for the workers as well. Now looking, um at it from an implementation standpoint, the UM environmental service leader said overall it was really easy to implement. Um they did on a qualitative level feel that they perceived more team spirit among their employees, that they would see people um, walking around together, for example, which they didn't walk in the corridors together and just chatting amongst themselves, which they hadn't really seen before that, um, and then they also wanted to um, continue um, the communal meal break. And when we asked about the cost, they said this really didn't cost them anything um, at all. Because it really. They're just really you know, tiny changes that you can make that don't have to have um, these really heavy burdensome costs. And so that's an, that. That's another reason why you could um, you know, it's important to address the uh, the work design level because these are little changes you can integrate into that um, without adding, adding. Making it more burdensome. Um, and so all of the. We took all of the feedback from the workers and the participants in the study as well as the leaders and then we created a leadership focused Implementation guide that was informed by all of um, this kind of discussion and knowledge. And the goal really was really from the outset of the study to say okay, how can we design work um, to improve connections or promote social connection for these workers and then ultimately provide an implementation guide to the leaders that they can then continue and you know uh, to continue to implement the communal meal break and be able to sustain it over time. So that was um, and in that um guide we talked about the study itself. We talked about you know, what are some of the barriers and the challenges that came up like why workers didn't participate and what can be done to um, actually address those challenges in the workplace and so that the communal meal break could continue to be implemented in a more effective made um and then you know, in addition to that we recommended some simple strategies that they could, that leaders could um, implement to create a better work environment. For example having check ins, five minute check ins with your um, you know, with um, evs with workers to see how are you doing, Allowing workers um, time just to check in with each other as well and then openly recognizing the importance of social health. That's a big part of any sort of any change at this level is to create a culture where social health and well being are recognized as important. And so once you start to prioritize it in an explicit way, you then start to plan your tasks and your day to day work tasks in a way that promotes that goal. And it all goes toward creating a culture of connection. Um, and then I think. So that was one example, uh, is another example I'll share um, that I am currently a Fulbright um, scholar from the United States States uh, visiting Finland um, and working here in Tampere University. And my project here is focused um, on exploring the drivers of loneliness and social connection in Finland. So you know I'm also really interested in how what we can learn from cultures around the world um, on social connection. Because I think we each approach various cultures, approach connection and social health in very different ways. But we all share some very basic, basic human needs for connection. So what does that look like in Finland? So what are some of the workplace drivers, what are some of the cultural drivers of loneliness and connection in Finland? Um, so I'm talking with employers here, I'm talking with um, getting uh, employee perspectives as well as people in the, as well as colleagues. And um, just you know I'm using this opportunity to talk to everybody, cab drivers and um, we're every, I am outside and just strike up a conversation and ask how um, you know, how things work and trying to understand the culture a bit. Um, and I'm also sharing um, this approach called Total Worker Health from the United States, which is a validated approach to um, worker well being. Um, let's see. And so while I'm here, as I said, I'm gaining some really valuable perspectives from organizational leaders and uh, occupational health professionals, employees and just, just people. Um, and some of the findings I'm seeing, um, I still have to go back and look through the findings um, in a more detailed way. But so far it's been really insightful to learn about some of the cultural factors, some of the shared human needs and also arriving at constructive strategies for promoting social connection, um, at work. And really I think getting an umbrella perspective of social health in Finland has been really exciting and really meaningful um, to me as a social connection, um, researcher. I've been talking with people about, you know, the culture and language. How does the Finnish culture play um, a role in well being? How does work life, research and strategy from a research standpoint, how does that um, inform well being? Um, I'm speaking with experts on loneliness in youth and childhood and how we can address that. And uh, also looking at the circular economy, you know this seems like very diverse topics. But in the end if you think about social health, it really impacts us at very local um, levels levels but as well as really uh, in the miso levels and macro levels as well. Um, and so understanding the history of work and labor relations and how job quality for example plays a role and how social health is part of job quality. So understanding all of those aspects of work, but also understanding how all that plays into the larger experience within um, society has been really insightful.

Host: So what do you think would be the first and um, most important, important step to start take towards improving the situation, to kind of turning the curve so that it wouldn't be increasing loneliness but the other way around. So what would your policy advice be?

Anjali Ramesh Babu: That is an excellent um, question. I think at the foundational level it has to do with recognizing that this is an issue.

Host: Right.

Anjali Ramesh Babu: And I think we have more and more societies are realizing that you know, loneliness is actually something we um, can identify. Um, and then once we are able to identify it and then when you have strategies toward it on a public health level, I think this hats many uh, countries are taking notice to the point that they're releasing advisories on that. Um, some countries are building a strategy for how we can move past the loneliness epidemic. So that has been stepped one.

Host: Right.

Anjali Ramesh Babu: But I think at a. What I would beyond that. And that is a good that. And that is an essential piece of it because once you recognize it, then you start to mobilize resources toward it.

Host: Can I ask here that what do you think is the biggest obstacle in the. In recognizing. Because one would think in layman's terms that, well, you know, what's not to see? So what do you think is the biggest obstacle?

Anjali Ramesh Babu: Why is it difficult to even recognize then? That is another excellent question. Because I think on some, on some levels loneliness can be quite a subjective experience, right? It's not something that you can say, oh, you know, I have a heart issue or something physical or, you know, it's very, very often you're having to infer this from the outcomes that you're seeing and trying to relate it back. But this is not from the lack of the science on it because we know now from years of research that loneliness has very real, real physical health ramifications. And those physical ramifications also reflect at a mental health way. And then that can affect, um, that can impact. Now we're able to say from um, you know, more and more research coming out that it impacts it at a work level as well. But I think even at an individual level, you know, understanding loneliness, one can be tricky because we don't often recognize it. But also it's not something that we want to address. Admit, right? It's not something. It's a. Loneliness is not a pleasant feeling. And so saying it out loud, you know, is. Can be quite hard, um, on oneself. And then also I think what can be harder is our society has changed so much, right? We spend more and more of our time by ourselves in isolation. We know we spend this. We spend a large amount of time online and doing, uh, you know, in other realms, but not at this very physical, personal in, you know, sharing the same space. And that has got to impact, you know, that. So, so one part is not understanding or not wanting to identify or call it out. But also you don't really know what to do about it. Okay, let's say I'm what next? And so that that's what hard. And I think at higher levels too, you know, it takes a while for um, workplaces or societies to say, well, what can we actually do about it? But it's think fortunately there is more of a realization of it because we have reached those crisis points, um, and very often, although we would like to look at it from a preventive standpoint and say, oh, let's just all be In a good socially healthy community, it takes us to hit that rock bottom to finally say, oh, okay, we need to pay attention and to move toward it. And so to your other question of what's the number one, um, what's the number one way to influence policy? It would really be to recognize one, that this is an issue, but also importantly, recognize that there are things that can be done at every level of society. It's not somebody else's problem.

Host: What would you recommend to someone who's just listened to this podcast and is thinking that, okay, I actually can see in my personnel data, uh, that we have an increased situation of loneliness in this organization regardless of what the organization is. What would your, your science based recommendation be for the first step to take what to do? Yeah.

Anjali Ramesh Babu: And you're talking about it from a work level or an individual level.

Host: Yeah, this, no organizational level. On the level of the workplace, someone who has, uh, say that it's an HR manager. A lot of our listeners are HR professionals.

Anjali Ramesh Babu: Yeah. Yeah.

Host: What are they going to do? What's the first step to take towards diminishing, preventing, improve the situation?

Anjali Ramesh Babu: Right. Uh, again, great question because there are different ways that you can approach this. Um, you know, it's very easy for some organizations to, I think often organizations will maybe start at the level of providing surveys. It goes at the employee engagement service, for example, and asking people if they are experiencing loneliness. But that's not really, you know, that's a way to do it. But I think also it's possible that organizations feel like there is a loneliness in their, in their organization. You know, in their company, everyone seems fine. You know, why should we kind of raise um, a red flag when there's not any or risk raising that red flag? But really there are ways. Regardless of whether there is loneliness or you want to tap into doesn't take away from the fact that you have to have a good working environment. Right. And that means having good socially healthy working environment.

Host: Environment.

Anjali Ramesh Babu: There are things that you can do as um, as an organizational leader that says, okay, what do I have a good workplace culture? For example, am I working my employees way too hard? Do they have the time on their job to even to talk with their employee, to their co workers? Do they have the time to go take their kids to school? Do they have enough bandwidth and you know, to emotional social bandwidth to go home and then be able to um, to live a good quality, to have a good quality evening with their family, for example? So it's those things that I, I think really reflecting on how the work impacts the health and well being of your employees. That would be a good starting point. So even if you don't know the first thing about uh, improving social connection, make sure you can provide these little touch points, little opportunities for people to engage.

Host: So if I understand you correctly, that would be like. The first step would be to examine the organizational culture and identify are there times availability is there to even meet. To even meet if you want to meet, sort of like. And then also taking a very holistic um examination of the sort of what's the employee experience in my organization?

Anjali Ramesh Babu: Absolutely.

Host: And does that feel like allow for meeting or if you like um, doing things together apart from work and even working together like said. So that would be the sort of like recommended route towards this. Otherwise maybe difficult, can be a bit difficult or, or um, like you said, subjective or, or even like very intimate topic.

Anjali Ramesh Babu: Absolutely, absolutely. And I think for if you don't, if you're hesitant to get into the weeds on that, into the really asking people how do you feel? Uh, if you can have a positive work in mind when that's good. But I also want to say one thing, especially when it comes to social health and connection, it is not good enough to say we'll have, have a potluck once a month or to say you know, it's good if you have that wonderful continuing. But recognize that you know, social connection. For any social connection in your own life, think about it, right? Any relationship to develop meaningfully you have to have that consistency of opportunity, those touch points as I said. So what can you do on a daily basis that can be easily integrated? So keep it practical, keep it simple. And that often comes to how the workday is organized. And this is also important because we are at a time where we work remotely a lot. We work you know, in hybrid ways a lot. We, there's all contract work is quite, quite prevalent. And so it's really how can you foster that belongingness, the feeling of belonging um, amongst your employees and so are there, you know, it's creating spaces for example, it's openly recognizing that you know, we want, we would love for all of you to have you know, a good social working relationship with your workers. So it's calling it out at that level and then and following that upward action of creating little opportunities at the workplace is a part of the culture.

Host: I think that's great advice. I hope everyone listening is going to do take a step towards that. That's a great advice from so many other perspectives. I think um, I have One more question that I would like to pose to you. Um, you mentioned now that uh, this research visit to Finland has been very um, fruitful for you and that you've gained a lot of perspective. Now I know that Finns are always very curious to hear how they compare with others. So would you like to highlight maybe some of the biggest cultural differences that you can see? Um, now from the perspective of your research, of course, uh, from your work, from the concepts like what do you think are the striking differences or similarities that you've come across?

Anjali Ramesh Babu: Mhm.

Host: Yeah. So. And I think. Sorry, if I can just still specify you, if I understand you or know you correctly, you will be actually speaking from at least three cultural. Comparing three cultures rather than two.

Anjali Ramesh Babu: Yes, thank you. Um, I was going to bring that up. So I um, grew up in India and then. And I live um, in the US and lived there for, for a while and so I have kind of um. I think that's why the, this cross cultural approach is so important to me because I think when I having grown up in India it's a very, it's a, it's a different experience. Right. You have really connected social groups, you have families, a big part of your day to day um, life at every level and different parts of your life and coming into.

Host: Okay.

Anjali Ramesh Babu: And then. And in the United States, you know, it's, it's different. And then coming to Finland as well, you know, that's a whole other different uh, aspect as well. So, so what are some of the, some of the differences, differences? Um, I can probably speak from observation as well, but also from the research that's that's coming up is you know, some of the things that we hear about Finns. Oh, we don't engage in small talk for example.

Host: Right.

Anjali Ramesh Babu: Ah, we tend to be more reserved for example.

Host: Right.

Anjali Ramesh Babu: And yes, all of those things, um, you know, seem to be quite um, prevalent and I think uh, recognized um, by many. Openly kind of addressed in. It keeps coming up as a theme in our. When I'm conducting these interviews. But also so you know we have a shared need for social health. And so it's when once you do get down to that level of getting to know each other and providing the op. That's why I keep saying providing the opportunity to come to connect together and having that. That's um, when people start to open up and I think even if it takes a little bit longer um, for Finns, I think to open up is what is the impression is what I'm hearing. Um, there is that willingness to dive deep and to build that relationship. And I think in that way we're all connected. It's the same, the same social needs we have, whether we're from, you know, varying parts of the world, globally, it's just our basic social need. And so some of the, um. Because in, in my study, I'm also asking what are some strategies you could have, um, to build social connection. And you know, if you think about it, it's very real things like, I wish I had more time to get to know my coworkers. I wish I had the opportunity to get my, you know, to get to know my coworkers. It's. I work remotely now, so I don't really get to see them. And just meeting, meeting solely on teams or you know, online, we don't really get to have that in person, um, connection. And that is so essential for us to build these social relationships. Um, and so. But again, you know, it's to say that, uh. So in that way I think I would say that it's. We all share some basic human needs and also see. Share some basic strategies, um, as well. When we talk about how we can improve a little bit, you know, that doesn't differ from culture to culture, but um, it's how we can approach social connection, maybe from different, in different ways. But ultimately we do get a social connection and I think we do get to those deep, meaningful relationships. And I think that's what's, um. That's what is at its core the important part of it.

Host: So the good news is that even if we are different and struggle with this now, we still can find that a universal need. And kind of, if we apply ourselves a little bit, we. This is something that we could remedy in all organizations globally. Effy.

Anjali Ramesh Babu: Absolutely. And I think that's. And the, and the fact that loneliness seems to be prevalent not just in one society or another is quite telling. It's really everywhere. It's a global phenomenon. And I think that finally attests to the fact that we do need those deep connections, which can be more challenging in the Thai, given the times we live, live in. And you know, it can lead to some uh, you know, some not ideal solutions like workplaces saying, oh, you better come to work and it'll all be fixed. And those are not really the ways we should be going because you don't force, um, you know, you don't kind of force people to do, to do what they don't. You don't want to take, take away autonomy. But there are ways that you can bring subtle, simple changes to an environment or to, you know, through these little opportunities for um, connections that can. A little. Can go a long way.

Host: That's a great place to stop. That means that everyone can start with the sort of. Some think of a small baby step to start with. Absolutely. This wonderful um, uh, lecture has given you plenty of ideas of what are the sort of central elements and what to start with. I would like to thank you wholeheartedly for taking this time to speak with us and um, tape your thoughts and this way being able to feed some food for thought for others, um, thinking about these things in organizations, in world of research, wherever our listeners are. But thank you so much for your time and we wish you a safe flight back home. Thank you so much and hope to see you many times over when your next time you come to Europe or Finland.

Anjali Ramesh Babu: I certainly hope so. I feel like I've built some connections here, so.

Host: Yes, you have, I think M. So I look forward to it. To that, thank you. Thanks a lot. Thank you for listening. The podcast is a collaboration between Aalto University's Future of Work Hankin School of Economics, the Finnish association of Work Life Research and um, the work 2030 program.