Alessandro Delfanti: The Warehouse: Workers and Robots at Amazon

Elena: Welcome to the second of our two special episodes in Work now and in the Future Tools for Thinking podcast series. Our uh, guest today is Professor Alessandro Del Fanti from University of Toronto. His research explores work within digital capitalism, digital countercultures and emerging forms of resistance and refusal. In this episode he will discuss his book the Workers and Robots at Amazon. For additional materials and resources visit www.aalto ah.fi fi futurework and navigate to the podcast section. Now without further ado, let's welcome Professor Alessandro Delfonte.

Alessandro Delfanti: First of all, thank you for inviting me. Um, um, so thank you for that. Thank you Elena, also uh, for Jorgen for organizing this and for inviting me for your interest in my work. So um, um, I'm just going to talk about this book that came out at this point a couple of years ago titled the Warehouse Workers and Robots at Amazon. Um, and um, this is something I've wrote um, while working at the, in the rest of Toronto, um, as a professor. But the research is actually based in my old country Italy. So in a minute we'll talk about that a little bit about the place where I conducted this research. So the sort of like starting point for uh, this idea um of researching Amazon was that uh, we tend to experience these, these uh company as consumers, uh, the majority of us. Um, and I really wanted to change that and look at the, at what happens behind the curtain between um, our click on an order and the delivery of a package to our doorsteps. Um, so I was really interested in the sort of hidden abode of uh, digital work that uh, when I started researching this book was still pretty much um, uh opaque. I think in the last few years we've seen um, uh a deluge of journalists and researchers and workers. Ah also directly sort of exposing the reality of what happens in the, in the, in the facilities where this company stores, uh, it's uh, the commodity it sells and then um, distributes them for the cons to the consumers. So I really wanted to apply a labor focus to these, to this massive company. Um, uh. So I'm going to quickly discuss three of the sort of main ideas that or main sort of like uh, uh, uh, theoretical concepts that is sort of uh, developed out of this empirical research that I did uh, in the warehouse. Um, uh, and this is. These are the idea of machinic dispossession, the idea of uh, a uh, augmented despotism and then the idea of humans extending um, automation. So we'll talk about the. All these, these three sort of concepts in a minute. So I Wanted to, to start by um just uh making sure we are on the same page here in terms of understanding that uh Amazon is part of a larger trend uh of uh the application of digital technologies to uh the labor process. So there are other platforms, other uh uh let's say uh digital digital capitalism. Companies that uh pretty much follow similar uh logics in terms of the way in which they um use digital technology, use new forms of automation to reorganize the labor process. So uh, I just wanted to argue that Amazon is not a unique case. Um although what makes it interesting is the size of this company. Um so we're talking about one of the largest private employers, if not the largest private employer uh in the world. Um a network of uh ah 200 and counting uh uh fcs or fulfillment centers. So the massive warehouses where most of the commodities are stored plus thousands and thousands of smaller distribution centers. Um so very interesting from the viewpoint of the number of people that work for this company. Also the technological firepower of this company in terms of investments in developing or acquiring new technology that then takes, they use inside the warehouse to organize uh the labor um of managing inventory, managing our orders. Um so um, a very interesting place to look at the way in which to use Ruha Benjamin's uh, uh to borrow an idea from, from American black technology scholar RA Benjamin, uh a very good place to look at how technology is used to innovate inequity so to reproduce um unjust relationship, relationship relationships of power in uh the workplace. Um I'm also uh. I also need to say that while I focus on the warehouse because I think it's, it's that one of the core uh places where uh um you can actually study the evolution of labor in uh our, in our era Amazon uh is much more than that. So it will be a mistake to uh, uh sort of reduce Amazon to its uh E commerce operations. Amazon is, is a much larger company. Uh a lot of us know uh this very well. So at the very least we should mention Amazon Web Services, the largest ah provider of um uh connectivity and computation in the world. Um Amazon as an increasing role uh as a cultural ah industry. So with it it's uh, uh tv, music, uh and so on and so forth. Um uh and then devices like the Kindle, uh there is, there is an entire uh consumer devices like Alexa and other devices. So Amazon is much more than E commerce and all these branches of this company are somehow uh related to each other. So it's analytically one can separate the warehouse from the rest of this company. But we need to be aware that it's an epistemic move that we need to uh, take in order to focus on one thing you can actually analyze empirically. But it will you know, you have to keep in mind that Amazon uh is much larger than this and for instance uh, its computational power is directly used to organize uh e commerce operations uh of the company. So like I said, hundreds of massive fulfillment centers uh where the commodities are stored. I just wanted to give you a sense uh of uh the geography of these places. They tend to be um located around major uh metropolitan centers especially in Europe and North America, but expanding to Asia, South America uh currently. Um so uh, for instance in Toronto there are several fulfillment centers that all ah are located in the outskirts uh of downtown where the bulk of the uh um uh customers reside. Uh but the workforce um that uh there are logistical reasons why fulfillment uh centers are the periphery of major metropolitan centers. Um so easier to uh move commodities there via, via train or truck, um but also because of the workforce that is needed to staff these places. So each fulfillment center may um uh employ up to 5,6000 people. Uh in many cases there's a core um group of uh full time workers and then um, a um um mass of um temp workers hired through, especially through temp agencies that uh are used to expand and contract the workforce at will depending on the needs of consumption. So for instance around peaks like Prime Day or Christmas, Amazon will hire thousands of temp workers to staff its warehouses. That's uh, expanding the workforce. Um so um, uh what's interesting is that the geographical location of these places uh is used again to sort of tap into massive workforces that are available uh to uh conduct uh the labor that's necessary for Amazon to exist in the first place. And these workers tend to be located in the peripheries of our major metropolitan centers and they tend to be um uh people of color or uh, migrant populations that uh have increasingly been hired by Amazon. Uh pretty much it's a similar pattern across the world in a sense. Um so we'll talk about this labor composition maybe uh later. Later too. So um, my own research though is I was like I said was not based in Toronto where I, where I live and where I work but uh, in my um old hometown of Piacenza in Northern Italy. So um, this is, there's some serendipity here in my um case choice to work on this company. So I think I realized that ah, uh just around the corner from my hometown, um um there, there was this uh massive fulfillment center MXP5 which I'm going to show uh right here um which has been operating near PHN for UM since 2011 I want to say the first and still the largest fulfillment center in the country. So strategically located in in in a place my hometown that's uh uh that lays right at the center of the Pa Uh valley in Northern Italy and especially uh suited to serve uh Milan the largest market especially at the time uh for Amazon. So um um I basically found in my, in my, in my hometown uh this ah very interesting advanced place that one could use as a, a laboratory to study the evolution of labor the digital uh era. Um um and because of the sheer size of it I literally had um old classmates and friends and people and you know acquaintances working there. So I, I had, I had privileged access to this, access to this place because of the people who work there. Um but also I had been discussed in this place uh uh in terms of the politics of labor at this company ever since it first moved to my hometown. So interestingly before uh we from this place could actually order from Amazon. We could work that. So at the beginning the orders would only go into Milan but people from the chainsaw were already working there. Um um. So um I decided to again focus on this place and um what I did was to um for several years um to conduct uh empirical research through um psych visits. So I visited this and several other fulfillment centers uh in Europe and North America several times. Uh but most importantly I interviewed um workers especially from this fulfillment center but also from other fulfillment centers in again both in Europe and North America. Um I ran um analysis of the online conversations that Amazon workers have so on platforms where they share ideas, suggestions, tips uh uh or political content and so on and so forth around the work in the, in the fulfillment center. Um I also tried to study these companies corporate culture so by going to events um organized by the company collecting um you know PR material and so on and so forth. Um and last but but not least I also studied um the patents that this company owns for technology uh that would be introduced in the warehouse. So we'll talk about that again later. So this is the um. This is the inside of uh of one uh major fulfillment center. So the, the central area is called the Peak Tower which is a uh multistory um uh inventory um uh of so several, several stories. Um um and then line with shelves containing billions and billions of commodities that Amazon sells. Uh this is where it's uh. I, I I, I, in the book I talk about this as, as. As a laboratory to study the uh, encounter between, between workers and automation in the current age. Um so um. I really, I really think it's a, It's a very interesting place to study some of the dynamics that we'll discuss in a minute. Um, I, I approached it through um um my background in media studies and science and technology studies. So looking at the materiality of technology and how that interacts with humans. Um but also I came in with this uh using this tradition of autonomous labor studies, um so typical Italian tradition of uh, Marxist analysis developed since the 60s that looks at uh workers as the main agents of change, um within capitalism. So the power of leading labor sort of taking over the power of management or the power of technology. So um, um I also did. I also studied like I said, the corporate culture of this company. Uh so I looked at the cultures of work more in general once say within Amazon uh warehouses. So um, uh starting from the main slogan, one of the. One of the. One of. One of many slogans that you will see painted inside the warehouse. Um this is one of the most famous ones. Work Hard, have Fun, make history. You'll, you'll find it uh again painted on the walls in massive uh, uh font. Um in the. In at MXP MXP 5. The Warehouse I studied, it's actually uh, uh you, you encounter it as soon as you walk into the warehouse. Um so um, uh. I follow these slogans to organize the book. So the chapters are actually called Work Hard, have Fun, Make History and then other slogans like relentless, uh or uh, customer obsession. Um so what I found interesting, I'm using this slogan to just highlight the way in which um the warehouse. Amazon warehouses can be seen as laboratory. Um, as a laboratory both um, from the technological viewpoint but also from the political and ideological viewpoint. So the study of the cultures of work within Amazon um helped me look at the second to the political and ideological sort uh of ways in which his warehouses can be seen as laboratories for uh the transformations of labor that we're witnessing uh in these last uh few years. So um, the work hard part is easy to understand. It's physical, repetitive, uh labor very ah high turnover, very high rate of injuries. Uh this is no big news. If uh, uh. If anyone has followed um, uh even just the news media around Amazon, especially since 2017, 2018 when the first strikes happened at the company, um uh. It's very clear that this is a ah uh it's heavy, uh demanding work. People can last, um A long time in these places there's a very high turnover. Um it's the, it's the work hard part and to be involved uh within, within the slogan that, that we discussed first. It's, it's one of the most important sort of messages that workers get as soon as they walk into the warehouse. So this culture of um, um uh speed um and willingness to abide by the, the rhythms and the pace dictated by consumption. So um, it's interesting here because like this the, the the the the mass case. So then the, the sheer number of workers. For instance for MX MXP5 we're talking about 1500 full time. This number may double during peaks. So the number of workers, the pace of work, the, the the physical nature of the job really sort of in this high tech environment really show uh, really a testament to uh the idea that well Marx actually wrote in capital um uh 150 years ago that when he said that machines um rather than destroying jobs machines create new incentives to the insatiable appetite for the labor of others that capital has. So rather than uh, uh uh replacing living labor uh machinery as used in Amazon warehouses and elsewhere um tend to if anything increase the capital's appetite for leading labor. Um so um, just to explain the labor process very quickly, um the main instrument of labor is a barcode scanner. Um this can take the place of a handheld scanner pretty much like the ones you see in a supermarket, the cashier um uh or it could be wearable um technology that incorporates um barcode scanners and so on and so forth. But the point is that workers what they do is they log into the system. Um so for instance, so what they do at an XP5 they walk into the warehouse, grab a scanner, shoot uh their own or scan their own badge uh that logs ah them into the system coupling them with the scanner they're using. So from that moment on the scanner both dictates the labor process, giving them instructions on what to do and also collects data like a variety of data from their labor. So the labor of the picker, the workers tasked with retrieving commodities that have been ordered and then sending them to shipment um uh is organized through the, the the barcode scanner. Um simple uh way I want to say so very similar to what happens in a gig economy app like Foodora or Uber or the Leader O just instead of a ah of a phone app it's, it's a digital scanner with a screen uh with instructions on what, on what to retrieve and what it is. So go to second floor um shelf uh number 5 cell K73 and retrieve these uh wireless headphones that someone has ordered. So the worker walks there, scans the item, scans the cart they are uh carrying around, puts the item um in the cart. At this point the system knows that the wireless headphones have been have been picked and they're going to pack to packaging uh and then shipping. So um, in a sense very simple uh process. Um what's interesting is that as the scanner organizes labor dictating the you know tasks to individual pickers, it also collects uh information on that. So um. So the scanner is is is is a technology workers have to use um in the in fulfillment center. It's also technology that that makes them fully transparent uh or partially transparent to management in that it collects all sorts of all sorts of data especially on their, their rates, their productivity, the speed of their labor. So how many pieces peaked per hour. Um so while the um uh tasks um may be assigned automatically by the. By the inventory software running the fulfillment center, what's interesting is that the data coming from the scanner are also uh fed to the human managers that on uh the shop floor control the workforce and uh um uh push them to abide by the rhythms dictated by machinery and by consumption if you. If you want to go upstream. So um the system of surveillance is not limited to the scanner. Um so there is Also, for instance AI powered cameras that make sure that people um behave in certain manners within the warehouse. There is, there is ah a It's not the most surveilled ah workplaces on earth. Uh there's a system um of body uh scanners that people have to go through when they, when they enter and when they leave the fulfillment center. Um so digital technology is widely deployed in in in in this and other and other similar warehouses to not only to organize the delivery process but also to control uh and monitor the workforce. So the, the most uh the easiest example would be um a message popping up on on on a pickers um screen saying um go to the um team lead team leader's uh position for one to one which means that the team leader or the manager uh will inform the workers that for instance their pace is too slow so they have to pick up speed if they want to for instance be renewed in their job uh down the line if they are hired by a team the temp agency. Um so I, I call this um augmented despotism um in that I see technology as an extension of a very human form of power, managerial uh power that's, that's That's a place in uh, workplaces regardless of the technological uh, organization of labor. So here I went back to the uh, early autonomous thinkers such as for instance raniero Panseri, early 60s. It was analyzing the introduction of um, new uh, emerging technology in the shop floor. In that case, that was the assembly line, uh, back in the day in industrial. In the factors of. Of. Of. Of industrial capitalism of uh, mid century, mid 20th century industrial capitalism. Um and Pan wrote that you can't possibly separate, uh the t. The. The. The. The techniques, um.

Elena: Sorry.

Alessandro Delfanti: Ah, the technologies used to organize labor, uh, the techniques. So the managerial techniques used to. To organize ah and control labor. And then the, the despotism, the imbalance of power. That, that's always a play in uh, industrial. Industrial capitalism. So a very interesting, very uh, revealing call for me to go, to look beyond the technological layer and look at how uh, uh, human power gets to be augmented or strengthened by the application of digital technology to the labor process. Um, stowing is the opposite, um, of picking. So these are the stores are the workers who fill the warehouse with the commodities. So imagine truck, uh, is unloaded, um, uh the boxes, the pallets and the boxes are open, um workers, the commodities, ah, are putting carts and workers walk with these cards inside the peak tower to uh, sort of position items on the shelves. So what's interesting here is that um, the system that Amazon and other similar companies use to organize the inventory allows um, them to maintain a full monopoly of the knowledge, um, of where the stuff is, uh, in the. In the warehouse. Um, so just uh, to explain the process like uh. It's based on what they call, um, chaotic storage or pseudo. Pseudo um, random uh, uh, forms of storage. Uh whereas there is no specific area of the warehouse for a certain kind of item. So there is no shelf that's dedicated to uh, let's say wireless headphones. Um, but single copies of the same item are spread throughout the peak tower. Um, so the workers, um, and this is for efficiency reasons, you can use space more efficiently if you can squeeze um, something in any cell, regardless of whether that's the. You know, because there is no specific area for what a cell phone. So can. You can squeeze them wherever they fit. Um, and also if you spread your copies of your items um, all across like a massive warehouse, it's going to be much uh, more likely that any area of the warehouse would have at least a copy of this item. So any picker working in a certain area of this massive pick tower will have. Will be able to find a Copy of those wireless headphones uh near them. Um so it speeds up the labor of retrieving the commodities later, um or assigning commodities to pickers in different areas of the warehouse. But while the picking is um, automated in that the decisions about what to pick and who's to pick it is uh, um outsourced to algorithms, stowing is much more reliant on human embodied creativity. So the stores have to walk around and find ways to uh, efficiently store um items in these like small cells. So find wherever there is, there is room for one. Make sure they're divided, they're far enough from each other, uh, and so on and so forth. So um, this. Create this chaotic or pseudo randomized um form of inventory which is impossible to know for any human being including, including managers. So the knowledge about the geography of the warehouse or where the stuff is is fully um incorporated in the software systems that run the inventory. So once a, once a store has stowed an item on the shelves, there is no way, there is no way for them and, or for managers to actually find out where that is. So that's completely outsourced to algorithms. And this, this gives Amazon a complete monopoly over this typical traditional form of knowledge that warehouse workers used to have. So in my interviews, for instance um, Amazon workers who had experience, previous experience working in traditional warehouses will actually stress this as a um. As a form of dispossession. So I was. That was the system takes away from me, um uh my note. The knowledge that you need a different kind of traditional kind of warehouse will build over time about where the stuff is and that will make you a more efficient worker. Of course that's now completely outsourced to machines. It's impossible for us to know that and they saw that as a ah as the loss of a form uh of political leverage that they had um with the company. So um, these um, what they call the machinic disposition, the, the incorporation of, of the knowledge about where uh something is in the warehouse, uh into software system systems. Um uh makes um Amazon workers more easily replaceable uh because the. They've been taken away the knowledge of where um the commodities are. And thus it's much more easy to just replace that with someone who just needs to follow the instructions on the scanner to retrieve the next commodity. So um, Amazon is one of the largest um R and D players in the, in in the world. In one of the largest private R and D pairs war, they deposit hundreds of patents every year. It's very interesting material um that um has to do with the future of the Warehouse in a sense because these are the documents where the lawyers and the engineers who work for Amazon inscribe, um, the way in which they imagine um, new technologies that may actually enter the warehouse in the future. Um, it's very rich material because there is. Patents include ah, very thorough descriptions and designs of a new invention as, as, as per patent lingo. Um, it's also very, there are also very good documents to look at the ways in which futures can be owned, uh, by private interest to use, uh, to borrow, um, ah, an idea from the late sociologist John Urry. Um, um, they can also be um, problematic because nothing, nothing, nothing, you cannot, you can, you cannot take for granted that what you find in a patent will actually materialize in the future. Um, sometimes they are, they're only, they're only used to um, prevent competition from moving into certain new technological areas, so on and so forth. But it's I, I, I, I, um, in the book I, I argue that they're very good materials to look if not at the future of work, at least at the ways in which capital desires the future of work. So, so again we, we went and studied hundreds of these objects and some are clearly, um, um, we did a textual analysis so we actually read them trying to figure out which, which, which future of work was uh, inscribed in these documents. So um, some are pretty much um, unrealistic. Um, so there is some, for instance for flying fulfillment centers that can float over an area where there's a concentration of customers, let's say a stadium where there's a football um, game going on. And then a fleet of drones will, will fly uh, down to the stadium to deliver whatever the customers have ordered. Team, uh, jerseys and popcorn, I guess. Um, so automated docks where the, the drones can be, can be uh, loaded, uh, inside the floating fulfillment center. Uh, this is probably the most, uh, sort of imaginative ones. Uh, very unlikely it will materialize anytime in the near future or anytime at all. Uh, but then some are much more mundane. Um, and the ones that are much more mundane tend to have to do with specific, um, projects or desires for a certain kind of future of work inside the warehouse. So there's a set, for instance of technologies based on augmented reality. So imagine a worker wearing goggles, um, with AI powered cameras mounted on them. So, um, as you're working inside the fulfillment center, the gogos project on top of your natural field of vision, uh, arrows that will tell you where to turn. So turn left in the next, in the next ale. Um, so this has to do with speeding up labor, optimizing human labor rather than replacing human labor. So again in the service of the um, rhythms dictated by consumption. So technology mediating between consumption and labor by speeding up labor in the service of consumption. So the very same technology can be used to foster forms of what I called earlier augmented despotism. So imagine a supervisor wearing uh, augmented reality goggles. And when they look at a worker, uh the system projects on top of their natural uh field of vision information on the worker so that the AI powered cameras recognize, so there is face recognition technology. They recognize the worker and then they project on top of the supervisor's field of vision, uh, information on this worker, uh, what, what their task is, where they've been complaining how efficient they are, what's why, why they requested your assistance. For instance, um, so this is, this, this is a form of Again I think this technology will foster what I call augmented despotism by making workers even more transparent to management through the, through the application of digital technology in the workplace. Um um, a lot of uh patents have to do with uh, what they call uh humanly extended automation. So imagining humans as the carriers of sensors that uh, generate valuable information for the software systems that run the inventory, the inventory in a warehouse. So for instance, um again glasses that um capture 3D information from a cell to uh, uh inform the system about which kind of object could actually fit in there. Or um, this sort of like digital Taylorism processes. Whereas uh workers um can uh uh perform tasks, for instance grab a mug while wearing um gloves that capture um, information about the speed, pressure movement of their hand and then feed that information to a computer system that will use it to um, uh improve the operations of machining machine robotic arms that could actually replace the worker conducting the uh, performing the task. So I call these forms of um, sensing for the machine a human extended automation. This is, I'm sort of flipping here Marshall uh, McLuhan's traditional take on media extending um humans. In this case I'm saying that humans extend the machinery's ability to sense the environment and act upon the environment. But they become these sort of, to go back to Marx's uh words they sort of become um. They ah put workers in a position where they become the appendices of machinery. Um so this is what they call humanly extended automation. And just to, to wrap this up, um, um the what's what the sort of general take from the patents I analyze is that Amazon pretty much like uh other similar companies is very explicit. Um, um when uh in, in terms of acknowledging the continuing need for human labor uh, in the workplace even in the future. So there are we found um, quotes in some of these patents that could pretty much come from a sociology of labor or textbook. So for instance there is one here that says uh, ah, quote automation is expensive and time consuming to implement, unlike a human workforce which can be allocated according to need, unquote. So uh, basically here the engineers and lawyers working for Amazon are saying well automation is pretty cool but humans are cheaper and more flexible. Um so we, we we plan to use humans in the warehouse for the foreseeable future. So this is, it's a very uh, sort of a um, a signal of the ways in which digital capital again imagines using machinery to um, um whet its appetite for, for human, for living labor but not, not not to replace um, the presence of human labor um in its workplaces. So this is one another, another way in which Amazon to me is a laboratory. So this is one of the most advanced uh workplaces um in the world in terms of the sort of algorithmic robotic technologies that they deploy in the warehouse. Uh but then this um, uh sort of transparency when they say but we will, we will always need humans, we will need even more humans maybe in the future. Um so kind of running against the grain of uh, um um concerns about digital technology, especially robotics replacing uh, human labor.

Elena: Yes, thank you for joining us today. And um, can you kind of elaborate a little bit of the managerial culture? Because I'm very interested in the um. Basically like what you were saying here in the end that the human is kind of like you said, append this to the machinery if you like the machines and um, echoing this kind of idea that um, instead of the machines bringing more freedom to us and letting us become, I don't know, creative and fulfilling ourselves and doing the dull tasks. This is the other way trend. And this uh, is like further exploitation if you like with the help of algorithms. So what about the managerial culture? How are the managers? What's what. Would you, would you elaborate a little bit about that because you left it out now in the interest of time.

Alessandro Delfanti: Um, yeah. So um, well the man, you know the, the local managerial cultures change dramatically from country to country and even from fulfillment center to fulfillment center. But there is, there is a, there is a certain as, as multinational corporations do. There is an umbrella sort of Nigeria culture that's imposed from above onto the various um, fulfillment centers. So um, um the problem that Amazon has is that this is a manual ah, repetitive physical, even dangerous labor that has to be performed very quickly. Um and workers have to be ready to change their pace and to adapt to the rhythms of consumption as dictated by the machine uh at any given moment. So there's a clash here between the workers interest in you know just like taking it easy and that the companies uh need to speed uh up uh both the, the the pace of work and also the pace at which it can replace people in the warehouse to sort of like you know introduce new bodies in the process. So um, the the the the despotic um nature of management is definitely there. Um so you can be you know your people uh are uh surveilled very strictly. They can um uh suffer consequences if they do not abide by the rhythms of getting dictated by machinery. This has been um uh unveiled over and over again especially by workers themselves during strikes and mobilizations but also by uh journalists. Um but this more despotic side is not the only weapon to the. That Amazon deploys to make sure the workers actually do follow the rhythms dictate of the machinery. So the other one is a more ideological push towards uh, towards um building consent um regarding these rhythms. So Amazon has adopted um a ah set of managerial techniques that ah are used to sort of like project the company's ideology onto the workforce. Nothing super regional but what's interesting is the. How many Amazon deploys and the combination between this and the despotic side. So the main thing is that Amazon is supposed to be a fun place to work. So there is something about Amazon exceptionalism where workers um are told that uh working at Amazon is more fun, more interesting, more informal and you should be happy that you work here. And this is um um captured by the slogans that uh uh cover the warehouse's walls. Uh the sort of like colorful nature uh of the, of the fulfillment center itself that basically especially in the break rooms and the canteen mimics um Silicon ah Valley campuses like Google's. So colorful, playful with you know uh tennis table and video games in the canteen and so on and so forth. Um and then these uh briefings or standups in the States where uh for five minutes at the beginning of each shift, uh and um, when you go back to work after your lunch break, um the team leader will um uh get all the workers of the team together and basically uh uh make them do some activity together that uh, shows how much they abide by the culture of work there. So for instance prizes for the teams that are being faster. Um or you can, you can be asked to dance, um or you can be asked to celebrate how many pieces you uh, uh, you delivered last, you know. Yes. Yesterday or last night. Um, so I called it a culture of mandatory fun where these briefings have to be attended. And while you can pretend you keep, you can pretend you like them you secret most people secret, not like them but like they certainly are are mandatory. Um and also there is uh, technology also being used to sort of monitor your um, adherence to corporate culture. So the same barcode scanner you use to uh, work will ask you questions like how much do you like working at Amazon? And then there is a, you know, you can click on a lot. I love it a little bit on not at all. But you do this while you're logged into the system. So workers uh, don't trust this, this, this post to be anonymous. Although Amazon uses them to sort of reinforce the idea to, to towards the external world to say but we ask our workers all the time and they say they love us. Um, so there is this like sort of enforced culture of positivity and fun that they uh, deploy to sort of like counterbalance the material completions of work.

Elena: That's a good way to get to our next question which is that you said this during the presentation. Um, this is that you call Amazon, you describe Amazon as a laboratory for algorithmic management. They test out. The patents were very interesting. This kind of possible imagined futures from the perspective of lawyers and capitalists I guess. So how do you see these systems um shaping not only these experiences of workers which are you know you talked quite a lot about but also the broader our understanding of labor work.

Alessandro Delfanti: Um yeah, on the one hand there is I guess like a more sort of technical organizational uh answer which is that Amazon is at the forefront of innovating technology be used in these kind of, in these kind of workplaces and like other companies are following suit. So um, Amazon is like, so is, is is ahead of the competition in the E commerce or in the warehousing industry in terms of the you know, developing and applying the new technology. And other companies will try and either copy what Amazon does uh, or uh, or purchase technologies that they, that that will similar to those that Amazon uses in sort of in certain cases even hiring people from Amazon to, to uh, staff E commerce warehouses that are, that basically mimic the organizational um, uh design that Amazon has. So I've seen other E commerce warehouses in the same area but also elsewhere where the managers and the team leaders are all hired out of Amazon. The processes are very similar. They're just like behind in terms of deploying more technology in the warehouse. So this is a very technical sort of point. It's a laboratory because of this ability to, to develop and deploy new technologies quickly and the others sort of following suit with the exception of big Chinese um e commerce companies that may actually that are the only actors that are able to compete at Amazon at this point from that viewpoint at least. Um there is also more political point maybe which is um, that Amazon um is pushing this model of employment that especially this very high turnover and these very ideological side. Whereas there is a promise of um, economic and social emancipation to the workers who participate in, in in in Amazon M. But then there is also the sort of harsh reality of the material conditions. Um so these especially not just the physical nature and or, or the fact that you have to, to to be ready to abide by whatever request in terms of you know changing shifts or, or working or doing over, over over time uh, or, or, or or speeding up um but also the very high turnover. So um, we know that there is data from certain areas especially in the states that say that Amazon has a 200% turnover rate. Uh which basically means that for each job on average um, uh the worker staffing a certain position is replaced twice in a year on average. So I think there is this, there's this more political point about Amazon is a laboratory for the politics of labor in terms of imposing uh, um a more precarious kind of labor uh imposing um harsh anti union politics. Um so that's certainly more concerning. But what's interesting is also that uh the workers have been fighting back especially in the last few years. We have all read about the strikes. One of the very first strikes was@m.mxp5 the warehouse in my hometown. Um so it's also laboratory for worker struggles. Maybe uh, we can talk about this later.

Elena: But yeah, well actually my next question is coming to that. So maybe you can expand on that because basically M. I'm asking or someone's asking that um. Yeah exactly for this, that you talk about the tyranny of algorithms that um. How do you view the potential for workers or even societies as you said this will be spreading this way of working and thinking and managing. What are the possibilities to break free from this system? And um, can you give examples of resistance or alternatives that inspire you?

Alessandro Delfanti: Yeah, it's been very interesting to see the ways in which workers subvert the technological organization of the warehouse. In uh. We can, we can start from like very small acts of like micro sabotage. Like for instance the worker who is aware of these um random or chaotic nature of inventory and thus uh, uh, willfully misplaces an item. And because it's not immediately visible that an item is not in the correct area of the warehouse, because the warehouse is an organized mass or chaos that item is lost for can be lost forever, at least for a long time. Um so for instance I've heard workers saying well I know how the system, this chaotic storage system works so I know I can uh, sort of screw with it and take my little revenge. Um but that's uh. But then there is also like higher level ways in which workers have imagined how to subvert Amazon. So for instance um, finding the choke points in the, in Amazon's another uh company's value chains. A single FC doesn't mean much to Amazon. You should see them as a network of warehouses that will all work together. So if you stop one any order can be rerouted through a different fulfillment center. So Amazon is continually continuously developing and applying algorithmic technologies that have to do with this ability to use flexibly a network of warehouses. So for instance workers in Italy that uh, have realized how difficult it is to actually impact um this uh, model by with the traditional tactics like striking in one facility, um um a couple of years ago they have for instance mobilized the entire value chain all the way from the uh, cost centers to the fulfillment centers, the smaller warehouses and the last mile delivery. And they found that last mile delivery is one of the chalk points. So it's much more easier to uh, uh organize workers to actually deliver for Amazon. Uh uh, and that can, can hurt the company much more so than uh, what happens in an fc. So for instance there was, there was a famous strike in, in, in Milan, well national but in Indero, Milan. The day of the strike over 200,000 packages were M not delivered. I think that was the more or less ballpark the number. Um um so massive success in terms of strike and that was achieved by figuring out first which kinds of workers would actually, would actually be more successful. And that was the delivery work workers. Um so I think we're seeing an interesting tactics be developed and also very interesting coalitions internationally, nationally and internationally. Um so because it's a multinational company able to move around um, quickly across different regions of the world, but even globally, um workers have been um, aware that you need to have an international if not a global response. So there is like several at this point coalitions, global coalitions of workers and unions and other worker led organizations that try to tackle Amazon at that level rather than at the level of the single facility.

Elena: Super interesting. Um, but can we go um, to the next question? That kind of bit links a bit like you talked about the surveillance methods and how uh, the tool that you use is also a tracker. So could you elaborate a little bit about how the surveillance extension extends beyond productivity to influence the actual autonomy and dignity of the workers? Like the fun, the enforced fun part. I think that's a uh, highly interesting one.

Alessandro Delfanti: Yeah. So, uh, well first of all, whatever uh, technology you use to work, uh, it will extract data from your again your productivity. So again like I said, the very basic processes like counting how many pieces you did per hour and then the, the supervisor can tell you what you're not, you're not making. Right. Um, but there's also this. The scanner also um, makes visible to management, um, your brakes for instance, so called the tot time off desk. Which means that you, you log off the scanner to go on lunch break or go to the bathroom. Um, so famously leading to issues, especially at the beginning of the, you know, a few years ago when Amazon for, for the first time, because I kind of was, was put under the spotlight, um, that was one of the main um, sort of forms of control that was criticized. The fact that people like the management can see how many minutes is spending in the bathroom. Um, but in terms of enforcing this corporate culture that we're discussing, um, again one of the main um, ways I found is these polls that workers receive. Um, whereas they are asked to confirm that they um, adhere to um, the corporate ideology of Amazon, including um, again just confirming that they like working there. But in this case the scanner is one of the tools used. A lot of the tools that are used by management are just like, are uh. Oh wait, wait a second. There is another one that's mediated by digital technologies that's very important which is this um, uh, uh, boards where people can suggest changes. Um, so for back in the day it used to be in typical Kaizen, um, modality for those who are familiar with Japanese toyotism models, uh, people could suggest improvements. Just write down something on a piece of paper, uh, post it on a board and the management will be able to see that you suggested to change the ways in which that I don't even know the cars are ah, moved around and now all that has been digitized. Um, so now workers are logged in when they make suggestions. So that's um, another way in which management can control a worker's willingness to actually uh, spend time and energy suggesting things to the company. And it's also Taken away the possibility that workers use that uh, sort of feedback mechanism to criticize the company. Um, um because it's been digitized and it's not. Although the company claims it's anonymous, it's not anymore. So I think the, I think this, this company pretty much like other um similar companies in, in digital capitalism but also industrial capitalism has um deploys these technologies to make sure that people at least pretend they abide by the, the sort of corporate culture that they want to see in the workplace. Um um, I call this like enfor enforced culture of finance or something like that.

Elena: But what do you think going forward? Governments, unions, civil society organizations, how should we, what role should these instances play? How should we be addressing this developing capitalism, uh these developments of work instead of letting it just go on the Amazon's terms which seems to be the current sort of situation. Then what, what could we, what should we do in, in from, in your, in your view?

Alessandro Delfanti: I'm not sure I'm in a position to tell. Um, tell you what should we, should we should do? Uh I, I, I can say that there is like different levels uh at which Amazon um is being challenged. Um so one is the sort of like policy level where um, antitrust legislation may very well soon be used against, against Amazon. People say that um, uh they were pretty scared of the possibility that Kamala Harris will win in the states because she would have brought in the you know, antitrust legislation to actually break down Amazon and other other big tech companies. Um so I wonder if this uh, regardless of the outcome of the election, I wonder if in the States uh, or in the, on the, or the EU would actually step in. Um and so the break this like major monopoly at this point in several areas of our economy. Uh then of course there is like legislation being introduced for instance that applies uh, sort of renews the um, sort of like uh, principles that protect workers privacy in a digital era. So the laws we have can be outdated in terms of like their new technologies that have been applied, applied to the, to the workplace in the last 10 or 20 years. Especially in the EU I guess there's a big push to changing uh or uh, adapting some of the laws that we already have to sort of protect workers in these environments. And then at the level um, um and same could be said at the national level for contracts. Um so labor policy, labor politics, uh, the countries where Amazon operates and similar companies operates will you know, determine the ways in which they can um, exploit to the extent to which they can exploit workers. The wages they have to pay and so on and so forth. So this is a, ah, this is a uh, is, is a uh, is a sphere where it goes well beyond Amazon of course. And then there is like the workers, the mobilization. So the work, the work, the worker organizations that are uh, certainly taking up the fight um, at several levels. And, and again like I said, there is even transnational networks organizing to um, uh, improve the situation uh, in this company. I think they'd be successful in some countries. So for instance you said in 10 years go back to the same fulfillment center. I think I did it in the last couple of years after the book came out and they started researching it in 2017, um, but already in 21, 22 um, workers will tell me the situation had improved a little bit in terms of instance the um, flexibility that's imposed on them in terms of accepting shifts over time, just to give you one example. So I think workers have been successful in some um, countries especially um, and um, if nothing more, at least normalizing um, what happens in this place. And this is also part of uh, why the struggles that have enveloped the warehousing industry in the last 10 years at least. So Amazon is just one piece of the puzzle there. I think like within the wood warehousing and logistics industry there's a, there is, there's a lot of exciting stuff um, happening right now in terms of, in terms of workers organizations and I guess they, they will, they will know better what, what's to be done.

Elena: Yeah, no, I'm just asking for you to sort of give your. I feel. And there's the next question that we're kind of now just going to kind of skate over. But someone's asking that at uh, at uh, what do you think are going to be the global impacts of Amazon's practices in terms of the labor solidarity of the Global north versus Global South. And I guess you're here highlighting that there's already some movements that people are actually successfully working together to. I don't know what would be the right word, adjust to this, changing work in this way and kind of also demanding improvements. So it's good to hear that there's been some. I'm conscious of us being almost at the end of our time. Um, so I'm going to make you again think about the future of work here because I'm thinking that one thing that I was thinking reading your work and now listening to you was that people who are very enthusiastic about technology see a lot of possibility in it. And there's an argument by MIT researchers That we could with these technologies, build a supply, globally sustainable working life for everyone. And uh, then the more dystopic views have been introduced as well. And somehow, I mean I realized that your data consists of different experiences. But I also couldn't escape from the feeling of dystopia lurking around the corner reading it and listening to you. So how do you, if you have to position yourself in terms of future work, are you an optimist, pessimist or something in between? And why. How do you view this development of, of, of labor work, future technologies?

Alessandro Delfanti: So I, I guess I'm a bit of a pessimist there in the, in this meaning that um, first of all, I'm not sure we can simply repurpose technologies imagined, designed and built to um, exploit human labor. Um, difficult to repurpose that, those technologies to do something different. Um, so maybe you will have to reimagine the technologies we used to work at least partially to be able to actually use them in an autonomous, uh, way or in a progressive way. That's not hurtful for our societies, our environment and so on and so forth. So Amazon is an entire machine built to increase consumption, um, and capture data and optimize labor. Um, very difficult to see how that can be repurposed towards something that would have a positive influence, for instance on climate, you know, the fight against climate change. Um, and then politically that's, that's a more, that's a more open question. Like right now we're seeing the resurgence of um, fascism in the West. And not only, I mean look at Russia, ah, India. And you have it. What, um have you. And um, um, I don't see equally strong movements coming from labor, um, right now, um, challenging these resources. Resources on fascism or fascism. So this is, this is, it's unwritten of course, but I'm concerned about the uh, what that you know, what could happen, um, for the, to the labor movement in a situation where these far right um, politicians actually take over even more so than they have so far. What that could lead us to. Um, so those are, those are, those are the pessimistic, I guess sides of this argument. Uh, I'm excited about the energy coming from um, the workers at Amazon and beyond, especially migrant labor, um, especially in Europe and North America, uh, the places where I'm most familiar with, um, uh, so that's exciting. I think there's a lot of energy there that could be released, um, and maybe change things for the best. But it's still to be seen.

Elena: Well, thank you. Sadly, we don't have any more time, and we're very grateful for this hour that you've given us. So I don't want to push you any further and let you get on with your day there, but thank you very much for this. Thanks for coming to talk to us and, um, answering some of the questions that we had time to pose.

Alessandro Delfanti: Thank you.

Elena: Thank you for listening. The podcast is in collaboration with Alvo's Future Work Project, the Finnish association of Work Life research, and the Work 2030 program.