Season 5 - Episode 8 | Defeated or Defined: Patricia and Stephen Gianotti on Crisis, Connection & Leadership (USA)

Speaker A: Welcome to Thriving in the Age of uh, Disruption podcast series. Patricia and Stephen.

Speaker B: Thank you, thank you.

Speaker A: I'm Puruli. Nice to have you co host this program with our uh, special guests. So you know, usually we ask our guests to introduce themselves.

Speaker C: So I am Dr. Patricia Giannatti. I'm a clinical psychologist and I've been practicing who of burpees almost 30 years in the field both with my master's degree and doctoral degree. I am the academic director of an advanced training institute for licensed therapists and psychologists through ah, Loyola University in Chicago. Um, I'm also the vice president of the Woodland Group. Stephen and I have that company together where I do leadership, uh, training, executive coaching. Um, and I am also the author of three books on clinical psychology and our fourth book Stephen and I wrote together is about to come out published by Rutledge in probably June or July of this year. And that is a leadership book. Um, I think that's it. So I wear various hats.

Speaker A: And what about you Stephen?

Speaker B: Well, my name is Stephen Gianotti. I'm founder and president of the Woodland groups, founded in 2003. Quick, uh, background. I come from a relatively small town in a relatively small state here in the northeastern part of the United States. We have about 18 miles of ocean seacoast and I think at an early age um, there was something about the ocean that um, I think instilled in me a lifetime of inspiration. So I left my home when I was 27 years old and joined the corporate world. Worked for a major international airline where I was able to uh, see a good part of the world. I worked mostly in the training and development department for those 15 years. After that I joined a uh, private consulting firm. I left there in 2003 and started the uh, Woodland Group with Patricia. I've been fortunate enough to work on five continents and um, just done incredible work. Not just for the Woodland Group but also parallel to that was being involved with the Society for Organizational Learning.

Speaker C: Stephen and I are husband and wife. Um, we've been married for 38 years. Where we live is a pretty hip town. It's, we're right on the ocean. We do not have any children but we do have a family of two dogs and a cat.

Speaker A: I started this podcast in 2021 with the aim of creating uh, uh, greater awareness about two kinds of mindset which I feel is uh, important for the WUCA world. And the first mindset is the entrepreneurial mindset and the second is a crisis ready mindset. By an entrepreneurial mindset I mean uh, one where you are being resourceful, you're able to take risks as well as manage uncertainty. And lastly, of course, to create value, both financial, non financial, and for yourself and others. I'm sure that you've had to lean on this mindset through the course of your lifetime, uh, both as a couple as well as individually, with your different practices. And it'll be great if you can share how, uh, you have done this.

Speaker B: One of the things that, um, I think was a turning point in our life was we did try to have children for a period of time, and it just wasn't meant to be. And, you know, making that decision or coming to that realization is one of the probably more poignant moments in a couple's life, uh, particularly if you had hopes or dreams of having children. And, uh, we realized that it wasn't meant to be.

Speaker D: I think crisis shows up in different ways, but there are turning points in our lives, different moments of, uh, unresolved something or next breakthrough or next thing that we have to deal with in our lives.

Speaker C: And I think the natural rhythm of the life cycle and what it means. We didn't do the IVF route. We decided not to do that. It was like, okay, this life has limitations as well as, you know, expansive moments. And how do you accept limitations, limitation without feeling limited, and actually see it as sort, um, of a spiritual communication or a spiritual gift, if you will. I mean, a similar thing happened to me when, um, I had to have emergency back surgery and nobody could figure out what was going on. I'd be walking fine, and then my legs would just give out and collapse and. But they got it in time. I would call it a miracle, um, that I was still able to walk, but it created limitations in terms of balance, flexibility, athleticism. And so at an earlyish age, I had to come to terms with sort of the natural aging process of the body. That really, um, matured me, I guess. Um, in a way, I had to make a decision about whether or not this would be something I fought against with regret or something that I accepted as a real gift to open other doorways for me.

Speaker A: Thank you for, uh, expanding that. What about you, Stefan?

Speaker B: One thing we know about life is that not if, but when personal crisis enters our lives, we always have the same two choices. And I don't mean to simplify the. The drama or the trauma of crisis in our lives, but we have those two choices. Ned is it can defeat you or it can define you. And. And, uh, I've always chosen the latter, not necessarily willingly. I mean I was pissed off or angry or hurt or whatever come from pain. But when you sort it all out, you really only have those two choices. It can defeat you and you spend the rest of your life being angry or it becomes the fuel for your, for the rest of your life. Uh, it's about choices that we make and hopefully we make that choice consciously. Part of the leadership work that we do is bringing that consciousness to people that might not be um, aware of the choices that they're making about being defeated or being defined by things that are not going right in their lives. It's easy, but it's hard. If that makes any sense. When you put it down to, it's either this or that, it becomes really simple. But to actually put that into behavior and to change your mindset, as you well know, can be very challenging for some people.

Speaker C: If you've had a lot of trauma or deprivation earlier in your life, um, having a limitation later in life can trigger earlier um, sort of experiences or memories or beliefs that nothing is possible. So those early um, imprintings, um, I think have some effect on our capacity for resilience. You can't recover from early trauma. I mean, I've dedicated my life to helping people recover from trauma. Uh, in part, um, but I think that part of the success in life in terms of resilience and how you handle crisis essentially also has to do with um, cleaning up unfinished business from the past and um, not trying to run away from it or compartmentalize it too much or um, say well that's in the past and I'm just going to overcompensate, improve that I can do this, or on the flip side of the same coin, be defeatist and not real. I take risks. Not really have the temperament, if you will, for entrepreneurial mindset. And so um, in some ways that leads into part of what we wanted to focus on. Our most recent book is trying to talk about in user friendly language, um, how past unfinished business affects our beliefs, our motivation. You gotta clear that up in order to be an effective leader. And so we're bringing that into the business arena and really not just identifying what's going on or what the deficit is, but also how to fix it and how to walk your way out of it I think is the contribution that we made in our uh, in this most recent book.

Speaker B: Because we are talking about psychology in many ways, but as coaches we have a responsibility to be really clear about what that line is. Because we have a responsibility not to open up somebody's past Traumas or Pandora boxes, but to somehow raise an awareness that there might be influences going on that they're not aware of. We think this is one of the first books that actually gets to the heart of why leaders behave the way they do. You all have read lots of leadership books. I find that there really haven't been many that dig into why does that leader behave that way. Now, they describe what those leaders things are, but they don't really say, number one, why? And number two, how can we change that?

Speaker D: Why?

Speaker A: Great. And you have a collaborator, uh, for this book, right. And how do you get together to do this book?

Speaker B: Uh, Ho is, uh, from South Korea, as you mentioned, and I met him 15 years ago at a conference in San Francisco. I stayed in touch with him and I introduced him to Patricia. He and Patricia have been doing work consistently for probably, what, 10 years? Patricia together?

Speaker C: 10, 11 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, really brilliant guy.

Speaker C: He's amazing. I think the value of this book is speak to an international audience, not just a Western audience. And how we integrate these concepts, particularly around loyalty contracts, cross culturally, uh, and the different impact that, um, sort of cultural norms have on individual development in terms of opportunity as well as limitation and what it means to follow by the rules. And how can you question or examine those rules and what happens if you question or examine those rules?

Speaker B: Uh, we had readers, they read a chapter and they give us feedback. As we are developing the book, we had 35 of those, and we had readers from every continent in the world, all seven continents.

Speaker C: I mean, we changed things in the book based on, in broad or added things to the book. So we took that very seriously.

Speaker D: So I think that's so wonderful, right, uh, to be able to write a book that way. And so I'm looking forward to, um, getting a copy.

Speaker A: When you look back at yourself and the crisis that you've had, what was it that supported you to get through it? What sort of coping mechanism, support structure, or a daily practice that you had cultivated over time that, uh, has been your bedrock of, uh, resilience to navigate that crisis.

Speaker C: Well, you have to have support. Nobody can go through this life alone. I've been blessed to have a very supportive family. It's a pretty hefty safety net that's under me. Uh, lots of siblings, lots of cousins, and my mother and her sisters made sure that all of the cousins, uh, were close. And that was one of the biggest blessings, um, as we've all grown up and had our own kids and some grandkids, um, and having a Loving partner and really dear, close friends.

Speaker A: Um,

Speaker C: I don't think crisis feels as intimidating or frightening if you feel like you're not in isolation. I mean, isolation is the killer really. And there have been so many clinical studies done on, um, people who've had cancer or people who have had some sort of illness. And the number one factor in terms of either recovery or longevity is the support system that you have around you. And that's been a blessing.

Speaker B: In the book, um, True north by Bill George, he talks about, um,

Speaker C: we

Speaker B: oftentimes go through what we call a crucible in our lives where we're essentially given some kind of a, um, an epiphany. And the opposite of dealing well with a crisis. Happened to me at a pretty early age, in my mid-20s, when my sister was diagnosed with leukemia. She was 15 years old. She spent a year trying to get better and she died. And all during that time that she was sick, I said to myself, my, my mental model at that time was, I cannot burden anybody with this. It's my responsibility. And about six months after my sister died, one of my best friends said to me, can I ask you a question, Stephen? I says, yeah, of course. Why didn't you let me be your friend when you needed me the most? That was a very important lesson because like Patricia said, uh, doing things alone is a killer. And I actually developed an ulcer during that time. So that was just physical evidence that if you go through it alone, you're going to suffer the consequences.

Speaker D: And I really appreciate both your responses. I think this comes down to the very essence that we cannot run away from that human relationship structures, that support structure, the safety net that we talk about, that's such an important asset of crisis, uh, or life.

Speaker C: We have brain research now and we're hardwired for connection. The whole pseudo independence and doing it on your own actually is a defense mechanism, like an attempt at overcompensation. So it's coming from a place of injury or deficit that we learn to overcompensate around, you know, hyper independence. There's no other thing to layer onto this. There's a spiritual force in the universe that connects everything together. And that connection is love. It's part of resilience. It's part of, uh, um, how we cope with crisis and make sense in meeting out of life.

Speaker D: And.

Speaker A: If you had to distill a daily practice that allowed you to leverage on that support structure or on that connection, what was it?

Speaker B: One of the most underutilized tool is, um, gratitude. We all have that tool I try to do at least every day, expressing gratitude in the most simple ways possible. Whether it's looking somebody in the eyes when they're taking my money at a checkout stand for a transaction of buying a bagel or, or um, just expressing, you know, to my wife that I love her. I think for me the daily practice is looking into people's eyes. And when you look into their eyes, you realize that no matter what they're doing or saying, if it's offensive or whatever, there's somebody in there that has some level of pain or concern and they have a heart. And as long as I can go in there now, that for me is a daily practice, looking into people's eyes.

Speaker C: You know, I probably have spent 10 years of my life in my own therapy and it really is an internal journey, an inward journey, and it teaches you skills around self reflection, around getting opinions from trusted others to reflect what you're struggling with, to resolve a conflict. And, and when you learn to have that kind of a relationship with yourself, every encounter that you have on a day to day basis goes through that filtering system internally. And that in of itself is an automatic daily practice.

Speaker B: Also, um, when it comes to spirituality and daily practice, um, there's a metaphorical set of arms that covers the entire world ready to embrace you at any moment in time. And it's called Mother Nature. To me, that is the ultimate spirituality and it's easy to be embraced by that on any, anytime you need it, you just got to go outside and look up or look around or listen.

Speaker A: That's true. Puruni, do you want to add something?

Speaker D: You know, all what you said is so, uh, wonderfully resonant and important. Right.

Speaker A: I wanted to start off by asking each one of you what's uh, your definition of a simple life?

Speaker C: Well, I can start. Um, I don't think there is a definition for a simple life. Um, I don't think life is simple. And, um, particularly in today's rapidly paced,

Speaker B: um,

Speaker C: demands on us and the complexity that we're expected to hold today in terms of the multiple challenges that are before us. So I think a better term or the way I would think about it is rather than living a simple life, uh, leading an integrated life. And what do I mean by that? Um, I think that if you find a way to be true to yourself, your authentic self, if you get rid of any old trauma and ghosts in the attic of your brain, um, and integrate the parts of yourself, your individual self, the entrepreneurial side of yourself, part of you that needs to be loved in connection with people and that those are in harmony, that you're living an integrated life. And in that sense, life becomes more simple, uh, or easy to move through.

Speaker A: That's, um, quite an interesting way to look at it in terms of simplicity from integration, becoming, uh, fully, uh, connected and whole, like you said. What about you, Stephen? What's yours?

Speaker B: Well, I think each person has his or her own definition of a simple life. If you look at a small village in Africa and they have really not a whole lot. And to me that would be the literal definition of a simple life. Now the question is, are they happy or not happy? I don't know. It probably depends on the person. But I think many of us live in more complicated situations where I have to interact with my neighbors and I have, you know, business to attend to. I, uh, have m. Lots of things I have to take care of or influence me, like cities and laws and regulations. And so my fear is that when we encourage or, or. Or tout the goal of having a simple life, we're setting ourselves up for failure. Because it's really not possible to have a simple life. Because life is not simple. It's complex, it's complicated. It's full of riches and immense devastations, and we can't not have those. So I had to learn how to not delude myself into thinking that simple life is real. I agree with this. Patricia says, uh, an integrated life is more realistic for me and having some level of autonomy that acknowledges and honors the lives of others. In other words, so it's not just about what I want, it's what I want in context of others. Now that's complex, not simple. But when I'm able to do that, my life becomes much more simple because then I have less friction and more flow. Is that just a complicated answer to a simple life question?

Speaker D: I love what both of you said about simple life. I just wanted to use this also as a segue to have Stephen talk a little bit more about the work that you do around systems, uh, organizational learning.

Speaker B: The Society for Organizational Learning was born out of mit UM Peter Senge and his colleagues created um a, um place where people could really understand the complexity of how organizations work, but also how to support and connect and correct that those that. That organizational machinations by number one, defining it as a living system. It is not a fake system. It is alive and it has needs like any living entity. And the Society for Organizational Learning helps us understand that when we treat an organization as if it is a living organism, uh, we can, um, have disciplines whereby we can enhance that organization at the individual level, the mini level, or the macro level, so that it can thrive and be sustainable over long periods of time. Um, Society for Organizational Learning now has, uh, communities all over the globe and continues to grow. And I've just been very honored to be part of it, as have been now thousands of people around the globe.

Speaker A: When we, uh, look at, uh, your deep involvement with, uh, Society of Organizational Learning, if you had to define personal mastery or reflect what had you get onto this journey? You know, like a turning point, personal

Speaker C: mastery, Um, I think if you go into the field of psychology, you're North Star, if you will. Um, and I've been doing this work for 30 years, and I've never stopped seeing myself as a learner. And the relationship between mastery and continual learning is hand in glove. Um, you never reach a point where that's it, you're an expert. And a measure of vitality, I think, throughout the lifespan is that you continue, continue to challenge yourself, to learn and deepen and evolve. And part of what mastery means also is, um, not just about one's sense of self and having a clean sense of self, but self in relation to other self. Uh, a self where mutuality is, you know, a guidepost that your needs are just as important as my needs. And how do I communicate that and what do I do if, um, there's a relational rupture? And taking responsive. Part of personal mastery has to do with learning skills to repair ruptures, which are communication skills. And how do we hold and become a larger container to hold deeper and more complex feelings, like grief, like loss, um, that all of those elements have to do with personal mastery.

Speaker A: What you've just shared is almost counterintuitive in today's world, because when people experience a rupture, they ignore it. Or, uh, worse still, they go after it, uh, with a vengeance, like someone has done them wrong. But don't, you know, reflect back inwards to where they could have been. And I think that's where we carry that burden, because we can let it go, but we are not able to. And I know that people can read your book, uh, and find maybe a way to doing, you know, to letting go and moving on. But if you had to just share, like, why it's so important to relook at how we navigate rupture, you know, what would you say to us, Like, why it's important to come to terms with that?

Speaker C: First of all, compartment compartmentalization doesn't work, even though you tell yourself it does, it doesn't, because it will follow you. Um, it's a shadow. And until you look at that shadow and incorporate the elements that you're trying to avoid, and you understand what those are, um, they will haunt you, they'll drag you down. So the more ruptures that you don't repair, you're adding weight to the knapsack of your back. And it comes out in terms of, um, oh, maybe lack of energy, maybe depression, maybe rage, maybe, you know, revenge.

Speaker B: Inactives to feel better, lashing out, explosion, road rage.

Speaker C: People don't know how to normalize disappointment, that somehow disappointment is, um, equated with failure. Disappointments happen in life. And if you equate disappointment with failure, then you either turn inward and beat yourself up, or you turn outward and you lash out toward others. Either way, the connection is lost. And so if we are all hardwired for connection, if the spiritual, all spiritual paths tell us that we're all interconnected, we can't avoid, we can't avoid, uh, repairing rupture, because that's part of our responsibility.

Speaker B: I don't know, that kind of goes back to life. Life isn't simple given what Patricia just said. You know, we will have disappointments.

Speaker A: And I like that idea.

Speaker C: We don't teach the skills, we don't teach people how to repair ruptures. That's the other thing. I mean, again,

Speaker B: if anything, we teach people to avoid them. As you said, Dr. Ramesh. Yeah, it's the classic fight or flight,

Speaker C: retaliate, avoid or retaliate.

Speaker B: As opposed, fight or flight?

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker A: Yeah. And that's what the world really needs today.

Speaker B: And given the course of human history, it will continue to need it. That's why the work that we do, the four of us and those like us need, uh, to keep going. We're offering a counter force to the big force of things that are not healthy and good for the world. It's an honor to do that work.

Speaker A: So coming back to you, Steven, then what's your, uh, take on personal mastery? And you know, what was the turning point for you?

Speaker B: Probably turning points, plural. Personal mastery, I think has to do with self awareness. And if I think people have a grounding of some level of spirituality early on in their lives, they recognize that there is something about me that has to be better at doing what I'm doing in relation to the rest of the world. Um, I think that's where it started for me is early understanding of spiritual practice. Um, if I'm really honest, um, the Society for Organizational Learning, and particularly Peter Senge's book, the Fifth Discipline, where he was probably the first person to call personal mastery. Personal mastery, uh, as a discipline, was one of the major turning points for me in terms of not just my professional life, but my personal life. Like, how do I make sure that what I'm doing is having the outcome that it needs to have or I want it to have?

Speaker C: Actually, one of the things that was a turning point for me is the idea of discipline and realizing that discipline and perseverance is one of the key pieces to personal mastery. And we don't talk about it all that much. I mean, we talk about discipline, but it's the perseverance, um, the quiet, daily perseverance is huge when it comes to the task of personal mastery.

Speaker A: Can the three of you define what is striving for each one of you?

Speaker B: I'm embarrassed to admit that there was a time when the accumulation of tangible things was a sign of thriving. And I look back on that time in my life as, uh, a big embarrassment. I had no clue what true thriving was. It didn't take me long to realize that while the accumulation of things filled up my apartment, but it didn't fill up my spirit. And, uh, so today, thriving for me means, um, number one, making meaning by creating value with and for other people. If I'm doing that, I'm thriving. Um, if I'm not doing harm to others or to our planet, that, to me, is a form of thriving. And. And the last thing is, um, just learning how to lead and to live with a sense of, um, generosity and gratitude. If I can do those three things, I think I feel like I'm thriving.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: First thing was gratitude. The second was an evidence of a thriving life is if you experience joy and laughter. You can tell the health of an organization when you walk in and you work with them by whether or not there's humor and laughter. Doing the work you love is a way of thriving.

Speaker A: Great. Thank you, Bernie. Do you want to add your definition?

Speaker D: Every time you ask me this question, I think I'll have a different answer. So

Speaker B: that means you're evolving.

Speaker D: I feel everything, and I'm learning from all the guests and my own self. Right. Three things is, one is being, uh, a choice. Like, you know, I'm at choice, that experience of choice, um, and which is generated from within. Right. It's that my choice. Even when there's no choice, I can choose. Second is that there is a coherence, whatever that is there at that moment, experience of Connection. And um, the third thing was compassion.

Speaker A: That willingness to know that as uh,

Speaker D: someone else, even if I don't know you personally and directly, that we are on the same journey, we are in this together. And that compassion that arises from that connection, right, that kindness or that love travels of my three words.

Speaker A: Thank you. Stephen and Patricia, you work with family businesses and we work with family businesses in this part of the world. What do you think are some of the key challenges that they face, especially the next gen, uh, and whether, you know, there's uh, what will support them to navigate uh, the Wuka world?

Speaker B: I currently facilitate a monthly meeting of nine CEOs of family owned businesses. Uh, some of them are three and four generations long. And every month we get together, we talk about what challenges them and what inspires them. And these are profound conversations. And one of the interesting things is that each of them repeatedly tell me that this is the only place they can say what they have to say professionally. It's the only place they feel like they can have a conversation that really matters to them. It has tentacles that few people understand. The emotions run high. I mean I've been in meetings where two brothers would throw things at each other and you know, just swear at each other and slam the tables. This is in front of other employees and it's just remarkable. Uh, and in the corporate world that wouldn't be tolerated. But in a family owned business there's a tolerance for it. I'm not saying that's a healthy thing. I'm just saying that that's the reality that we deal with. A risk factor for family owned businesses is that uh, the intended heirs, that the businesses are choosing different paths, they're being seduced by bigger and better things outside of the realm of the family owned business. And here where we live in the state of New Hampshire, uh, they are the majority, they make up the majority of our economy. And I think that's probably true for most places around the globe. Micro businesses are just the big engine. So I think the, one of the advantages that family owned businesses have is they have deep roots and they have the big wings of legacy. And you know, when you're working with a company that's been a hundred years old and if the family that runs that business is a healthy family, incredible things can happen and that thing will probably survive the uh, slings and arrows of today's world. The disadvantage of being in a family owned business can be myopia. And again, if the family is not healthy, there is a certain level of dysfunction which I talked about earlier, which can be devastating and can destroy a company.

Speaker C: What I would add to that is um, I think a challenge for family businesses, unlike ah, standard corporations, is this dynamic of inclusion and exclusion. Like who really has authority within the family business and whether that's the founder and then turning it over to the next generation. And are you really turning it over or are you still in control? Who really has the power, who's included, who has the last word? And also when you hire employees um, outside of the family, how much do you introduce them? How much weight do they have? Um, how are you going to do that? Blending as the generations continue. I mean it's one thing when you're a startup, but it becomes more complicated as the company continues to have longevity and you're introducing, you have to be introducing some people outside of the family in order for the business to have the resources that needs, the talent it needs and to create sustainability. The other piece that I think is really a challenge is if you have some family dysfunction, you don't have the same accountability structures. And that's something that is oftentimes an elephant in the room that is difficult to talk about. And it's difficult for outside consultants to have as much leverage as we may have in the corporate world about um, modifying behavior that needs to be changed. That's affecting, having a negative effect on the bottom line, on morale, on um, inclusion, exclusion, creativity, all of that.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Also I think there's a, there's another unique element of family owned businesses that oftentimes isn't articulated. But I, I do believe it's real. The goal of a family business is to maintain family wealth. Right. And I don't say that in a negative way. I think it's, it's their business, they have a right to, to accumulate wealth but the objective is, is to hang on to that wealth. Now if you think about a corporation, yeah they want to make money but they also have I think other responsibilities that are more overt and less focus on an inward uh, accumulation and keeping of uh, wealth.

Speaker A: You both uh, um, brought to the foreground the key aspects of things that challenge uh, family business as well as some of the things that makes them unique. And uh, addressing your point that you brought up about uh, their fixation to wealth accumulation, I mean that was the nature of why when a founder started the business they would bring their family members in in the first place because they were the safest uh, allies to support that. And then they kept together because they could make the money and keep it within Their circle. That's uh, what we do in Vietnam in our work with family businesses, nudging uh, them along to look at those things. And the biggest thing that makes a big difference for them is to actually learn to be held to account and to learn how to hold themselves to account so that they understand that that's when they can hold others to account. And um, it's a tough place uh, to be a consultant who uh, brings forward that conversation. Patricia but uh, that's pretty much also part of what we uh, create in um, the first part of our initiative. Because if we don't create that then there's no ground rules uh, as to move forward. I mean it's a struggle, but they do uh, alter their behavior, they do alter their mindset, uh, and they move forward. I mean we have anecdotal example of people who tell us that uh, I think we had a pop star in Thailand once who was uh, one of our clients. And he said, oh, I'm sorry but I don't get up until 2:00 in the afternoon. And I'm like no, we can't do this initiative unless you show up at 9. And then you know how over the next two years, every month he would show up at 9, right? That's commitment. But then he got connected to something that was bigger than his own needs, uh, something that he could contribute which could impact the whole, the collective rather than, you know, just focus on himself. And I uh, think you know, I can sort of relate so much to what you're saying Stephen, about uh, how uh, you are so excited about your work with family businesses. That's pretty much our experience as well.

Speaker B: I am seeing a shift as you, as you just said about the next gen, thinking a little bit differently about the accumulation of wealth. So it's not either or like we keep the money, we keep enough money for us and we spread it around a little bit.

Speaker A: So we're just about to launch a nine month next gen lab in uh, Vietnam. Um, over the 21 days, 40% is the education around family businesses, but also creating a uh, shared future for the participants so that they can journey together uh, in the long term rather than just be a participant. Uh, and that becomes like a peer group that they can uh, support each other. Then uh, another third of the program is about philanthropy, uh, impact and the Giving Circle. So we'll do a project on Giving Circle and they can come up with their theory of change, uh, they can do a sensing journey, they can invest amount of money and see what's the impact? And that would be their first introduction to greater philanthropic work that they will do. And the last part is really about enhancing their management and leadership skills. But we do it through the giving circle as a project so that there is no uh, self, uh, judgment about how I'm doing. Because you know, the biggest challenge for NextGen also in this part of the world is that they feel that they're always judged, uh, in terms of, you know, they're compared to their founders or on the other hand the professionals are judging them. So then, then they don't have the safe space. So how do we create the safe space for them to build competency, confidence and also experiment with something which is going to impact the future?

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, part of what I heard you say is that they're still in the process of creating their own self identity and that's what you're helping them do so that they can stand, um, so they can self differentiate.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: All right.

Speaker C: And their own values.

Speaker B: Yeah. And that's so key in a family owned business is that each member of the family has to find a place to self differentiate while still staying connected. And that's complicated. Yeah, it's being, is being separate and connected at the same time. And for some people that's just too confusing for them.

Speaker A: Uh, yes.

Speaker D: Yeah. Because we're m growing up in the idol or world. Uh, you see.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's a false choice. In today's world. It's a false choice. It's. And it has to be. And in most cases that's what I

Speaker C: mean about the integration that we're talking about, how you integrate both of those.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: All right.

Speaker B: And also Dr. Ramesh, in part of what you're talking about here with respect to the philanthropic element of family owned businesses is uh, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which you might be familiar with. Um, historically it's thought of as the top, the top rung of his needs was self actualization, when in fact that's not the final place where um, he ended up. He actually added Another layer about 15 years later called self transcendence. And self transcendence is about not just me being actualized, but once I become actualized, what do I do with that? Can I make the world a better place? And my sense is that you're having, you're starting to have those conversations with that next gen leadership about self transcendence. And that's a powerful, powerful place to bring people that'll change the world.

Speaker A: It's interesting that you brought that Up. And I recollect now, uh, my conversations with my grandmother. She passed away when she was 104, and she. Yes. And she was of the generation which related, uh, to discipline as duty, you know, all the way. Right. Until she passed away. Right. Like, I will do m. My stuff. I'm independent. I can take care of myself. Uh, and, uh, as long as there is breath in this, uh, body, I have to live and live by what I have to do. She related to her daily life as a responsibility, a duty, uh, that she was given. And as long as she was breathing, she had to do it. So I was saying that I always wondered if, you know, what about, uh, that generation that they related to life that way.

Speaker B: When. When you were talking, Dr. Ramesh, and you were talking, you said the word duty. I. I, uh, thought of my grandmother who came from Italy, and I thought, I wonder if that was just their word for love, that it's their way of saying love. I did it for duty. But really the underlying feeling, I think the intention is to take care of you, to take care of those that have been entrusted to me or that I have a responsibility to. It's out of love. That's just how I heard it. I. I don't know if it's true or not.

Speaker D: You know, so in. In Hinduism, we talk a lot about duties. And, you know, there's. There's duties as different phases of life and different roles that we play, right? And once I was at a spiritual ashram, and, um, there was a signal, you know, they have the daily, daily quote. And then it said, the most important duty is to do your divine duty. And so, like I said, oh, I've never heard of that duty before. And so it so happened that that morning you were going to have an interview with the guru of the ashram, and we had a special opportunity to ask him any question. I remember what I read that morning. I said, well, what's, uh, our divine beauty, right? And then so he said, oh, well, your divine beauty is actually knowing who you really are. Right. Connecting to your truest self. And, you know, when we connect our true self, as we all, in this conversation get that, then we connect to the expert, right? That I can see you in me. And that's what divinity is. I see yourself the need m. And so, you know, that ultimate experience of, um, the duty is never a burden. It's really a discovery and an expression. And like you said, yeah, maybe it is love, because it is an expression of the connection. Excellent.

Speaker A: Well, we have had an enjoyable evening and we've come to the end of this session.

Speaker B: Oh, so quickly.

Speaker A: Thank you so much.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker B: I have to say that the two of you together is really an amazing force between the two of you, I mean, the two of you together, uh, I wish I could see you more in action because I suspect you do incredible things, not just separately, but when you're together in the same room, uh, working together. It must be quite the sight. Well, thank you for inviting us to do this podcast for me. It was quite an honor and I can't think of a better first podcast to have than to have it with the two of you. So

Speaker C: great. This is really great. Thank you so much.

Speaker A: Yeah. And you know, all the very best

Speaker D: with your book and uh, what's coming up. I know for sure it's going to be something that's going to impact and make the difference in the ichat that it makes. So really thank you for doing that.

Speaker B: We're excited. We're excited. So thank you again.

Speaker A: Dear listeners, if you've been listening and enjoying the Thriving in the Aged Disruption podcast series as well as, ah, our Mastery Effect podcast series, we will appreciate it very much if you can share with us the topics that are close to your heart so that we can source the relevant, uh, experts and change makers and have them be on our show. Do comment below and let us know where you are commenting from and what is it that is of biggest concern to you.