Season 5 - Episode 9 | From Wall Street to Inner Transformation: Nguyen Phuong Lam on Consciousness, Philanthropy & the Future of Humanity (Vietnam, USA)

Speaker A: I came to see the hypocrisy at the heart of modern living. Long to be a monk. What do you fear most? And work on that so that at the end there is no more fear of anything. It is possible to live a simple life. No desire. The only desire is the desire for the divine. I became a person of all faith and no organized religion because I came to see how the institutions built, um, around the teachings of the great masters ended up deforming what these teachers taught. And then they bent wisdom into power.

Speaker B: Let me start off by welcoming Mr. Uh Lum to the Thriving in the Age of Disruption as well as the Mastery Effect podcast. Mr. Lam, I think our listeners will be really excited uh, to hear your perspective and your worldview about life and the experiences that you've had.

Speaker A: Thank you. Uh, delighted to be here. Um, so my name is Lam. Um, I grew up in Vietnam, um, but I've had a fairly varied uh, life. I finished high school in Brazil, um, and then I went to university in France, um, and then graduate school in the U.S. um, and soon after that, um, I started um, working um, on Wall street in the U.S. um, and after a few years moved to uh, Europe, uh, in Belgium, um, I worked in the UK for 13 years. Um, our three children were born there. Um, but for the last 31 years uh, we have moved back to Asia, um, and I now live in Singapore. Um, I have been retired for six years but all of my career has been in finance. And the last 25 years of working I was the co founder and co head of a global private equity business. We invested in emerging markets globally. So from Asia to Eastern Europe in including Russia, uh, Africa, um, and Latin America.

Speaker B: That's a uh, really impressive background. Especially the fact that you grew up in uh, three different societies. Brazil, France and the US and then now of course you're back in Asia. I created this uh, podcast to really uh, go deep into different mindsets that, that we need especially for today's WUCA world. Uh, I'm sure when we get into this conversation you will have a different way to define our emerging world as well. Um, and the two mindsets that I focus on, the entrepreneurial mindset and a crisis ready mindset. We also have Puruni who co hosts the Mastery Effect and there we look at uh, inner development as well as uh, inner mastery of ourselves. So when we look at any of these mindsets, what comes to your mind about perspectives or worldviews? How do you relate to them?

Speaker A: First of all, I think mindset is A misnomer, because a mind cannot be set. A mind should be moving and growing all the time. Um, and by mind, of course, we don't mean the brain or the head and the heart. But in terms of mindset, the one that is the root cause of a lot of our issues today globally, is the illusion of separateness, um, that I am separate from you, you are separate from, um, all the others. And we are separate from nature. And that is the root cause of all the issues combined with the materialistic, uh, civilization, uh, that reigns in the world today, that leads us to believe that anyone and anything in nature can be exploited by us for our own benefit. And that is the root cause of the major crisis we have today.

Speaker B: Yes, that's right, Mr. Lam M. You are, uh, someone who was deeply embedded in the world of finance, which represents capitalism and also the facet of exploitation from entrepreneurship perspective, you know, making money or creating, uh, value and returns. And on the other hand, the root cause of where we are today with the world not working, you pointed out to separatedness. How did you come about that discovery? What was that journey?

Speaker A: Now, of course, I did not start with this standing. It only came much later. I started like everybody else, um, out of school and wanting to make a living. So I began my working life, um, as an immigrant in the US but worse as an Asian refugee on Wall street, which in the 1970s was the global capital of white Anglo Saxon Protestant capitalism. Um, so to rise in that environment, a person of color like myself had to be sharper, work harder, and most devastating of all, must dismantle their own cultural identity in the name of belonging. Because I did that, um, I quote, unquote, succeeded. So by the early 2000s, um, I found myself in a life that outwardly suggested success. My family life was smooth and the private equity business that I had co founded was growing. Yet I felt an emptiness inside. Um, so after 30 years of banking and finance, the stress, the anger, the arrogance, and the insatiable desires had taken their toll. I told myself, this doesn't feel truly alive. Um, as the youth, I was a poet. I had once written three, um, books of poems about love and humanity. So I had always been looking for meaning and purpose. But somewhere between Saigon, Ho Chi Minh City now, and Wall street, the poet had gone into hiding. So, um, I said to myself, I'm going to find that poet again. So that emptiness caused the change.

Speaker C: So many years that we've been doing, coaching and facilitating that experience of emptiness that you said you came to, I think many People have experienced it, but in that moment, where did they turn to, um, feel that emptiness? I think that is the moment of opportunity or that transition. Right. What did we do with that? And how did you, uh, navigate that period or what came up out of that?

Speaker A: Yes, um, thank you. Um, so I went on a vipassana retreat, um, uh, a ten day silent retreat. Um, and that was transformative because that sparked a profound awakening and set me on a spiritual quest. And by dissolving my habitual thoughts and emotional reactions, it cracked open a direct experience of my true self. Since then, um, I meditate every day and I try to go on retreats at least once, if not several times a year. I only read spiritual books or scientific books, um, with spiritual orientation from one person, someone who longed to be a monk. Um, I became a person of all faith and no organized religion because I came to see how the institutions built around the teachings of the great masters ended up deforming what these teachers taught. And then they bent wisdom into power. So from a philanthropic donor, I came to see the hypocrisy at the heart of modern living. Philanthropy originally meant the love of mankind, but somewhere along the way, love became fear and humanity became hierarchy. So I became an agent of change instead. Um, and from inside the market economy, as someone who once helped run it, I have come to question its very foundations because my hunger for truth had propelled a deep inner transformation.

Speaker C: Out of curiosity, when you did your vipassana and you were still running your business at that time, right? How did you navigate this, uh, new world discovery and that existing world?

Speaker A: We tried to do things, um, a bit more mindfully. It did not require, um, much change in terms of the business because we did not do anything unethical. But with hindsight, we would not have done a few investments, um, like in mining, otherwise. The companies in which we invest have never been unethical. And we did not do buyouts where you buy a business. And the way to make money is to fire a lot of people, to, uh, generate the cash flow to repay the debt. We did not do that, so we did not have to change much. But still, 30 years in banking and finance, which is the most toxic, uh, industry in a, uh, materialistic civilization, created a lot of scars and bad habits. And that take a long time, uh, to clear. Um, and I'm still trying to clear that today, because they're still around. It is far easier to learn good habits than to unlearn, uh, bad ones. So my advice to everyone, especially the young ones, is the sooner you get on the journey, the better.

Speaker B: That's right. So I want to go back, uh, two steps and, uh, ask you in your experience, because you've been now involved with your family foundation and doing philanthropic work for 20, 25 years, how would you define the business? As usual, philanthropy right now. And where does it fall short?

Speaker A: That's an excellent, uh, question. Um, the way we did philanthropy before, um, was also a bit unusual in that we did not choose the cause, but we chose the person. So, uh, if we see a person and the team and we know that they do it out of real compassion, um, for others and love, then we support them because there are lots of, um, people out there, uh, who do it out of the ego. And I like to go back to this question of the ego, uh, later. So we don't support those, um, we support the people. It turns out to be that many of these people, um, are in education. But, um, we did not choose a course. We chose the people. Now, looking at the state of philanthropy, uh, today, the. There is a lot of ego involved among the donors. Um, I call it the ego halo silo kind of philanthropy. Um, people do it out of the ego. Um, they want recognition for their work. So it's the halo silo because they say, if you do this, I will fund you. If you, uh, don't do this, I would not, uh, fund you. And if you do that, I would also not, ah, fund you. Um, but all the issues in the world are related, um, and you cannot solve any problem unless you solve all problems. And I also look at the situation in the world today. Let's look at the three major ills. The triple fracture, as I call it. First, the fracture within the self. Mental health issues. Um, the number of deaths by suicide, um, in the world is now 720,000. So it's the largest cause of unnatural death in the world. And that is increasing, um, the second fracture within society. So not only inequity, but social fragmentation with people in the same space not even talking to one another and sometimes fighting. There are wars, civil war or international war going on everywhere. Um, and the third, um, fracture is with nature, climate change and species extinctions. The situation with these three ills is worse today than it was five years ago. And in five years time, it will be worse than it is today. I bet you that, um, regardless of the amount of traditional philanthropy deeds we do between now and then, the root cause of the problem is elsewhere. Last year I attended a philanthropic, um, conference, uh, retreat. Every session was about philanthropy, but Every session also had this person. He was also a founder, and he sold his business three years ago. Now he's also full time on philanthropy. And he talked about transformational philanthropy. And people asked him, what do you mean? And he said, well, it does not replace traditional philanthropy, which is still needed, because otherwise a lot of people would just die. Um, but it goes to the root cause of the issues. So people ask, so what is it? Um, and he said, well, there's many things, but put it in simple terms, it is to help people remember who they truly are.

Speaker B: Oh, yes.

Speaker A: So given our limited means, uh, we're not the Gates foundation or something big. Uh, we have to prioritize, and our priority is to help people who want, uh, to get on the spiritual path. Um, inner transformation for outer change.

Speaker C: Wow.

Speaker B: I really, uh, get that. Because when you said for people to remember who they are, it sort of connected to me, because even in your own story about being this teenage, uh, poet and then going on this journey around finance and still yearning, and the whole point was, it's a reconnection. It's a remembering right. We have that innately in all of us to be this human being.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: You've talked a lot about family philanthropy. You point out that family businesses have a great opportunity to contribute in this space.

Speaker A: Yes. Thank you. First of all, let's think. What is family? Family for me is not only blood family. In the last few years, through retreats, through gatherings, I met some people. We call each other soul brothers and sisters because of the things we do, because of our path. We make each other more whole. And family is anyone that can make one another more whole, feeling that we're part of something bigger than this body, than this emotions, than these thoughts, and even this identity. So that is family. Family philanthropy in Asia is still new because a lot of fortunes in Asia have been made recently in the last 50 years or a little bit more. But no philanthropy, no family foundation lasts for more than three generations. That is true in the world. So let's also have a long perspective and see what it means. Family philanthropy makes a lot of sense because there is a natural trust among the family members. So let's use that trust to help one another, help one another realize that there is, that we are part of something bigger, and we should help one another, the whole world, in that journey.

Speaker B: That's interesting, because I did my doctorate, uh, on family businesses, and I looked at, uh, trust, because trust is considered a, uh, uh, competitive advantage in family businesses. There are two kinds of trust. One is the Competency, trust, and the other is relational trust. I like you, uh, I spend a lot of time with you. And, and that's one of the great things about family businesses. Uh, they are forgiving, uh, once they like you because you're one of them. And that also is a, uh, disadvantage because it can lead to favoritism or nepotism because you're not really fair about what you do. So when you look at that emotional aspect that families bring, it is idiosyncratic. Every family will be different. What is the blind spot? I asked this question because, uh, we work with uh, family businesses, uh, in Vietnam. And about five years ago we started creating long term vision with families like, uh, 30, 40 years out. And there was one family. We created this vision to include everything, everyone. But when we worked with other families, we found that they wanted to express it themselves. Like the thing that you talked about, ego, halo, silo, to bring them together. The limitation is they want to put their own philosophy, their own brand. But what you are talking about is not having that separatedness, but being one for humanity. And um, so I observed the same kind of blind spot that you see in family philanthropy. How do you think we can break it down?

Speaker A: Yes, um, we have to understand that to be sustainable it has to be supported by love, real love. And real love is non transactional. It's unconditional love. Um, I would say that no human being or 99.9% of human beings do not have unconditional love. Um, we would only know that in another realm, another sphere, but we can move upwards towards that. So we have human love. And human love is conditional, um, and it's based on judgment. Uh, when we have brands, when we exclude, uh, some people, that is judgment. And when there is judgment, there is, there cannot be real love. So three years ago I attended, um, a gathering and a retreat. And we, um, asked this 97 year old, uh, swami, um, how do we serve better? And he said Prem and Pavitra. Love and purity. So at first I thought it was redundant, but. Because isn't love the final state, the final destination? Um, but upon reflection I understood because we can do acts, um, and tell ourselves, I'm doing it out of love, I'm doing it out of philanthropy, out of compassion. But deep down we know what is the real motivation. Um, and if there is a motivation, a uh, selfish motivation, then it is transactional. But purity knows that when we do something, whether it's for the sake of doing it, the real kindness, or for a secret motive, even if we Have a family, uh, foundation, and we do it. The next generation might not understand, might have different objectives, um, and different perspectives and different points of view. Um, and then the following generation, even more so. So it gets diluted and it's not sustainable. Whereas if you go to the root cause and the real nature of each of us, then it is sustainable. I'd like to tell, uh, a few anecdotes, uh, about that, about the next gen. Because they give me hope and because more of them want to live in truth. So two years ago, um, I was, uh, on the panel at a conference in Bali. And at the end, this young lady came to me and said, what you say resonates a lot. My family wants me to be involved in our family business. And I said no. My family wants me to be involved in our family foundation. I also said no. And I said, why is that? And, uh, she said, because the money is tainted. So we had cup of tea and I said, why don't you try to change from the inside? Um, and she said, I did try, but as long as my father is still alive, he's not going to change and I cannot handle it. So that is a different, uh, point of view. Uh, but then I say, but you still benefit from the world. Your lifestyle still benefits from that. And she said, I know, but one day I will pick up the courage and say, mom and dad, I love you. But, um, I cannot handle this tension. I have to set out on my own. I was at a conference in India, uh, last year, and there was a dialogue. This next gen person said, you cannot build something with one hand and break it with the other hand. You cannot do damage to the world and at the same time do philanthropy. That is not acceptable. So this attitude, this desire to live in truth, especially among the younger generation, is a source of hope.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: That's wonderful.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think so too. But what I wanted to ask, where do you think they can, uh, get the courage to stand in what they see as the emerging way when society, which tend to be filial children and behave in a particular way? And that's the tension that we see in our work.

Speaker A: Each person is different. So, uh, each person would have to find their own way.

Speaker C: What I think that's a very important part of it because a lot of times we try to take the shortcut or take a cookie cutter or model and just apply it because we don't want to do the work. The struggle. It's not easy journey. It's so, um, challenging. Facing yourself and facing your Circumstances and still continuing staying true to who you really are. And, um, you talked about the passing on with the generations. How can you pass on that consciousness? There are people who are already conscious but now worried. Can they really pass on to the next generation? Because although you gave really wonderful example of next generation who are opening and who are ready, there are also next generation who are not.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Thank you, Purani. There are a few laws in the universe. The supreme law in the universe, seen and unseen, is the law of love. But on earth, uh, here, the material world, um, there are also a few laws. There is the law of, uh, gravity, to which we all expose. There is a lot of karma, uh, action and reaction. Cannot, um, escape that. But one of the most important laws is the law of free will. Even God follows that rule. And that's why the benevolent God lets all the atrocities in the world happen. The law of free will applies everywhere to everyone. So we cannot force anyone, even our children, um, and much less other people, to change. If they don't want to change, let them do their free will. And one day they will learn what is the right way for them. Um, so the only thing we can do is to change ourselves, to change our views and to grow in consciousness and be a model, um, show to others there is another way to see the world. There is another way to act in the world. And if, um, you feel that it might be of benefit to you, let's join together. That's wonderful.

Speaker C: I think that's a very important place to hold because sometimes even in our goodness, we try to, um, force, uh, the outcome. Right? Because we think it's a good thing. But the dynamics and the karma that we get out of that forcefulness is, uh, just getting us back to us.

Speaker B: I want to talk about something which is, uh, intimate within the family itself. We, uh, talk about how we can pass down consciousness. So then what do you think is the key conversation that we are avoiding in families around this? I can see, uh, as a sister sometimes with my siblings about some request that they may make. It's like, I think I have to teach something by saying, no free will is there. But then I feel that I've not done the right thing if I haven't spoken it out. And that's the struggle that, uh, I have.

Speaker A: We should speak up sincerely, with empathy, with compassion and no judgment. No. Judgment is key. But then it's up to the person to do what she wants. In my own family, not all my children are interested in this work. It's fine. I'm happy because thanks to their upbringing, uh, all of them are ah, other centered and not self centered. Some of them are not interested in seva for now. It's up to them. I just continue with my work, um, and hope that one day they would get inspired by that and through the family foundation and things like that, have structures in place so that if they want to do it, they can tap on it.

Speaker B: Mhm M so in a way we have to keep faith, to keep to the faith, if that's the path that we want to work.

Speaker A: But faith is not dogma.

Speaker B: Yes. So then I want to also talk about a, uh, related topic that you have talked about as well, which is something that we observe, especially in Vietnam. A lot of the companies have started to embed, especially family businesses, uh, embed inner work, uh, whether it's mindfulness practices or even looking at who am I. When we started to work primarily with family businesses, we came from the premise that they were uh, the people of highest leverage for elevating consciousness because they can touch so many lives, uh, within that organization. And you know, we are Singaporeans, but we're working in Vietnam and we find it so much easier working in Vietnam or in Thailand or in Myanmar where we talk about these conversations. But the challenge is there in more mature, more developed countries. And I wonder why.

Speaker A: That's an excellent observation. You're right. The two best levers for change in my mind are schools and businesses. Uh, schools because you catch the children when they're young, um, so they can learn the good habits when they're young. And businesses because 80% of us work in a business. So um, that is a good place with leverage in Asia at least, um, in emerging Asia at least. There are many companies that are still family owned. So if the owner, um, decides, then it gets done. And they implement measures, uh, they have structures, they have facilitating means to do that. Many companies in Vietnam do exactly that. And it has become the culture of the company. So even if the leadership changes, the culture remains. In other more developed economies, the ownership is more dispersed, uh, diluted. Um, it is harder, but it's still possible if there is a determination from the top to do that. Just look at the unraveling of this world and the root cause is a common root cause. So. And that there is nothing personal and moving up in consciousness in order to try to address that issue.

Speaker C: M We talked about free will and then we talked about the workplace. Right. And all the good work is possible. But I also wanted to talk about AI I think it's a very huge, uh, impact that, uh, people have spoken about, maybe not really, uh, understood. How do you see AI and all these conversations we had about what it is to be a human being and um, the opportunity of family and workplace.

Speaker A: How is that companies can use AI but no one can solve the AI issue alone. Let's put things into context. A few hundred years ago, the Industrial revolution amplified the human muscle. And billions of people in the last few hundred years have been brought out of poverty, which is great. But the Industrial Revolution helped consolidate materialism and colonization and played a crucial part in the current crisis we have today about mental health, social inequity, fragmentation, climate, uh, the environment, all these problems. So the AI revolution would be the same. Instead of amplifying the physical muscle, it amplify the brain. Right now, AI can do, um, most entry level jobs better than humans. In a not too distant future, AI can do most jobs better than humans. In fact, it can do that within the next 10 years, if not earlier. Um, but I don't think it's going to happen. It would be delayed because of human inertia. Uh, but there would be a disconnect, a decoupling between day to day survival and paid employment. A lot of company owners would just say, rather than employ many people, I just use AI. I just use machines and produce the same thing. So we can have GDP grows without human benefit. Um, is that acceptable? No, of course not. So we have to decide whether we maintain the status quo like business as usual, or we rewrite the source code of society and design new economic systems, new economic structures that recognize the uniquely human contribution to life. And what is that? That is compassion. That is creativity. That is connectedness and conductivity. Conductivity is my way of designating our ability to help the energy of the universe circulate in the space among us. I'm sure you've been to circles. You sit down with some, um, people you did not know before. And through some exchanges in intimacy, in vulnerability, you can feel the energy circulate in that space and you become so close. A machine can never do that because that exchange happens in silence.

Speaker B: So true.

Speaker A: A person I greatly admire, uh, is now a friend called Nipun Mehta is the, uh, founder, um, of a platform called service space. He said AI may turn out to be an unexpected spiritual teacher, not because it has any wisdom, but because it closes every other door until the only thing left is us. Uh, yeah, that would be the benefit of, of AI how we get there, uh, in the short term, I think there Will be a loss, a lot of chaos, and even more inequality.

Speaker B: That's. And if I can circle back to your second transformation. Three years ago you talked about this, uh, 93, 94 year old swami. How was that journey like? Was it a conversation that you were listening to, you know, or was it the experience of being there?

Speaker A: The 20 years of, um, being on this spiritual journey. I attended this gathering, um, and it was transformative because through interaction with human beings who were living love, um, that made me understand that love in the mind is not love. Um, and without love, I'm nothing. And the revelation was quite devastating because it was the ego that has been doing all this work, sitting on the meditation cushion for 20 years. It was the ego who gave all these donations in philanthropic deeds. It was the ego going around, um, thinking that it's sharing, but it's pontificating. And that is not real love. Within 24 hours of that realization came another realization which is kindred m souls working together. It's not 1 +1 +1 =3, but equal infinity because we also bring in the energy of the universe. And that is quite transformative.

Speaker C: So wonderful. Such a blessing. One thought that came to me as you were, uh, sharing your journey. I've always wondered for myself. In the last 30 years we talk a lot about yoga and meditation, that so called consciousness. But my sense is also, it becomes another trophy to put on your table and say, I do this, I am that. And, um, and unfortunately, I think material capitalistic system is pervasive and taken over everything, even our spirituality, which has now become religious or structures.

Speaker B: And to keep truly connected is to

Speaker C: kindred spirits, uh, the people who are really truly on that same journey. First blessing is to find it for yourself, and second is to find those that you can journey together. So I guess my question is, are there any other signs as we do our work, you know, that we are off track, or, uh, that, you know, we perhaps are not really doing what is connected to the love.

Speaker A: Thank you, Purani. Very deep question. The spiritual journey can be the best place for the ego to hide from the light because we think that we are superior to others. So how do we differentiate between, um, the inner voice, which is the true teacher, and the ego talking? So for me there are a few tests. Does the guidance come from a dualistic mindset, you versus me, uh, one versus the other? If it benefits the outer self, then most likely it is the ego. Um, and you can notice the body. Does it contract or does it expand? The ego guidance often arise with a Tightening the deep guidance from the inner voice tends to open up something, even if what it asks is hard. The second test is you observe those we learn from. Do they embody inclusivity and humility, or do they exclude and even belittle those who don't agree with them? So those are some tests that I use now on the question of non duality. Um, I've also struggled to understand that, um, for a long time. Last year, a friend of mine, uh, passed away. We've known each other for 45 years. Um, um. So I stood in front of his body, uh, for over an hour. Um, um. He and I are the opposite of one another in terms of taste, values in, in many things. But we, we were friends. Um, um. And I was in a state of non judgment. So my wife asked me, were you sad? I said no, because sadness or our happiness is also judgment. And then afterwards I understood non judgment is non duality because we're one. In that hour, we were one. And I was grateful because that was his last gift to me. To understand that non duality is the beginning of unconditional love.

Speaker B: Wonderful.

Speaker C: Yeah. And it's. And I think, as you said that I see that is also another test or another, um, way we can see ourselves. Like, you know, even that, say, are you good, uh, bad. Right? I mean, these are already naturally, already there. Right.

Speaker A: As you go deeper, we begin to understand who is you, who is I. We're certainly not our body because it disappears. It's not our emotions, it's not our thoughts, it's not even our identity. You're not Ramesh or Purani, I'm not Lamb. We are bigger than that. And so non judgment means to recognize the outer me is not me. That we are really spiritual beings, just nurse, trying to learn some lesson. And we keep evolving and rising. The lowest level, he call it, the kindergarten level, is to have compassion for the starving child. The high school level is to have compassion for a person who does not understand impermanence, who is happy because he just achieved something, but not realizing that the next minute he's going to be unhappy because that circumstance would change. The PhD level is have compassion for somebody who does not understand duality and who therefore commits atrocities in the world. So I'm certainly far from being at that level. Um, I cannot have compassion for somebody who causes atrocities in the world. But I'm beginning to be at the stage where I understand that it's not this real.

Speaker B: He.

Speaker A: And there may be his own reason why he's doing this. And There is some intense suffering, um, inside that person too. Uh, so it's an understanding, but not yet a compassion. Wow. I think very few of us can achieve that level.

Speaker B: To translate, uh, understanding into compassion requires a, uh, major transformation. And I'm also wondering whether it's possible

Speaker C: in this material world. Because that's why people have this vision. Uh, the only way is to, uh, give everything up and go away to some very quiet mountain and sit there in the cave.

Speaker A: I don't think the two are separable. You cannot go to the cave and achieve higher levels of consciousness. You have to interact with. With others.

Speaker C: Yeah. That is the journey for this age.

Speaker A: That is. That is the journey.

Speaker B: Yeah. Because, uh, uh, each one of us is a mirror for the other.

Speaker A: Yes, yes, exactly.

Speaker B: Well, we've had a wonderful convers. I wanted to, uh, end with two last questions. Um, one is, if there is one question that you want to leave us with, what would that question be?

Speaker A: What do you fear most? And work on that so that at the end there is no more fear of anything. I work on that, and I keep discovering new sources of fear. So that's a continuing journey. Wonderful.

Speaker B: The other question was, what is a simple life? And is it possible to live a simple life?

Speaker A: It is possible to live a simple life. No desire. The only desire is the desire for the divine, the desire to grow in consciousness.

Speaker C: And I guess the paradox is that the final growth, uh, growth in consciousness is to give up that desire too, right?

Speaker A: Yes. Yes. Then we ascend.

Speaker B: Yes, that's right. We are excited that you're going to come to Vietnam. Uh, and we're in the midst of organizing the talk or the workshop that we want to have with you. You talk about family, philanthropy or reimagining wealth, as well as about the transition to the Age of Aquarius. Um, could you share a little bit about each one of them so that, you know, we can let our listeners know, let's say, in the area of family, philanthropy, you know, what are the key issues that you will be addressing?

Speaker A: What is family and what. And why is it, um, auspicious space to cultivate a philanthropy? And, uh, what do we want to pass on?

Speaker B: And in the talk, uh, on rethinking money and success, what do you address there?

Speaker A: The role of money and what is success for a young person? Does success mean getting good grades? Does it mean getting your first paycheck? Or does it mean feeling alive?

Speaker B: Very good. And lastly, for the new talk that you're just putting together, the transition to the Age of Aquarius. What do you generally cover in that?

Speaker A: To use the insights from my experience of uh, my contemplative practice to give a view on how to deal with the meta crisis. Because it is here and it's going to get worse and it's going to affect all of us. If we remember Covid, that affected all of us. We were helpless for a while and what is going to happen in the short term is going to be much worse and we have no choice but to confront it and deal with it. So how I would give my own view from a contemplative perspective.

Speaker B: Great. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that.

Speaker A: This may sound very esoteric to most people, but I think it's the most important issue for humanity.

Speaker B: Yes. I think people are searching and when someone like you, from your experience that you can transfer to this world and speak of another way to relate to life is very impactful. And you called yourself, uh, agent of change. Yeah. Yeah. But also the bridge, right?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You're supporting us to bridge to this new world.

Speaker A: Yes. Now I see myself, I discovered that recently, um, that since my youth my gift is to serve as a bridge. So now I'm a bridge between people of different ethnic groups, different socio economic classes, um, different cultures, um, different belief systems. Just to be a bridge. And I can also build the infrastructure m for things to circulate.

Speaker B: That's very nice. You know, I was having a conversation in my head listening to your conversation, uh, know being a listener as well as the interviewer. So it was a uh, very uh, interesting uh, place to be in, to be engaged in.

Speaker A: So that is wonderful to be able to do that. Everybody should aim to hear that.

Speaker C: Yeah, it was really heartening and we feel so much more um, having had this conversation on our journey and what we are doing. And we uh, really can see that this is what is wanted and needed. That's just what's arising. Yeah.

Speaker A: Emerges. Yeah. Thank you. Even on zoom, I can feel the energy.

Speaker B: That is true. Thank you. Thank you for your generous time, uh, and this uh, dialogue together.

Speaker A: It's a pleasure. Thank you very much. Thank you, Purani.

Speaker C: Thank you very much. Mr. Larry.

Speaker B: Sam.