From Hospitality to High-Yield Homes: How This Sibling Team Built a £10m Property Portfolio

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to this week in Property. I'm, um, your host, Richard Swan. And in today's show, we have these two fabulous people we are bringing in under the spotlight, the Property Pros Spotlight. And let me tell you, that's exactly what they are. We have Michelle, we have Paul. So ladies first. We have Michelle de Almeida. Very exotic. Hello, Michelle. Lovely to have you.

Speaker B: No, it's great to be here. Thank you for the invite. I was very excited.

Speaker A: Very welcome. Looking forward to it. And Paul. Paul Laurie. Hello, sir.

Speaker C: Hello. How are you on this beautiful day?

Speaker A: Good man. I like that. Good introduction. He's going to now be the host for the rest of the show.

Speaker B: Colin Wheelchair.

Speaker A: Now, if you don't guess already. Yes, I do know these guests always like to do full disclosure. So you know, does he know those guests? Does he know? Yeah, of course we do. I know these two through Paul McFadden's property protege program and seeing them doing all sorts of different things in business and property and everything else. And I just know that the magic they've been up to. Some are going to suggest that they are, uh, busier and harder working than others. No, some are going to suggest they are the brains behind you. Things are going to unfold. Oh, my God, please help us in this show. So I might know youse, but let's make sure everyone listening in knows yeast. And then we can understand your experiences, your, uh, projects, the sites, the visions, the future, everything that unfolds. Michelle, what twists and turns in the world of careers has brought you into this crazy world of property? God, deep breath.

Speaker B: I know the main one was have been twisted 20 years in hospitality. In all honesty, that's a long stretch. So our own business for six years of that, working in high street businesses, a regional role that covered all of Scotland at one point was 67 sites. So that lots of time away, lots of pressure. And I came out of that to go into a non profit because I felt a calling to do some good.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: And then in that space, I embraced entrepreneurship. I took all the skills of being in business and working at a high level and was providing training programs and supporting people in an enterprise organized by Coca Cola. So they were the funders. And I did that for a number of years. Um, but sole purpose doesn't pay your bills.

Speaker A: True.

Speaker B: In fact, it does the opposite. It puts you into debt every month, which is what I found. So every month I was like a couple hundred quid more in debt. And after, after four years I was like, this can't carry on. Yeah, um, so I went into my own business. I have my business consultancy and coaching that I was now three years old. And that led me to work. My other business partner, who's not with us today, Craig, and utility. And then me and Craig decided to get involved in property.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Uh, the property generally came through different things, but it's ultimately building greater wealth without having to use my time once

Speaker A: it's established the time thing, the big time element. Yeah. And did the hospitality start because of it in particular, or you just kind of drifted into this job? Then it became an. Straight away, the fighting has started. Okay, explain.

Speaker B: So I, um, I'd enrolled in the Navy, so I had decided in my early teens that if I wanted to get involved and get a degree and educate myself, which is what our parents had told us to do. The early old, like what you're told you should do. Growing up, I, uh, didn't want to debt and I didn't want to go to uni and get into debt. So I decided I would join the Navy and the Navy would put me through accountancy because I was always a year ahead in math.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And I was like, I'm gonna become an accountant, the Navy's gonna pay for it and I'm gonna travel.

Speaker A: I've got my path.

Speaker B: Yeah. Amazing. Huh? Huh. Until I went on my training. And then two weeks before the end of training, I ended up with a medical discharge because I have a health issue.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: I didn't know was a problem. Um, and they gave me a medical discharge. So then I was like, what'd you do now? Like, I'm 17, I don't have a career path. Lots of other things are going on in my life. Like, what do I do?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And Paul was working somewhere and they just done a call, and you can probably go into the call bit. Um, but he was like, we need bodies. Uh, you just need hands and feet and an ability to carry plates. And I was like, I'll come. And from then 20 years later, before I got out.

Speaker A: Right. Now, tell me this. The gap between life throwing you a curveball or you think you've got it all sorted. Mrs. Oh, you've got a plan. Or the navy and. Oh, that's clever. Yeah. Bang. Take some of this. With our medical influence, from life up to the point of hooking in Paul, the bodies, etc, was that a big gap, a small gap? Because I'm just wondering how you coped in that gap, uh, after life just smacking you.

Speaker B: It's quite small. Was, um, was quite a small gap. I think I came out, like, four months later, I came out to you.

Speaker C: I'm not sure it was that long.

Speaker B: I got an office job and I hated it.

Speaker C: Yeah, that was the thing. You got an office job.

Speaker B: Where's this thing? Because I'm a worker, like, I've had a job since I was 14.

Speaker A: So is that what kicked in when life hit you and said, no, no, that plan's gone. I'm stepping in here, Mrs. Did your brain just immediately go, right, work ethic, let's go get something else? Is that how you.

Speaker B: I was like, get a job. And then when you've got a job, you can get a plan.

Speaker A: Right. Love it.

Speaker B: So the job is about a means to an end. Like, you have to be bringing money in, you have to be occupying yourself, your mind, and just move yourself. Don't sit and wallow. That was still there then. I probably understand it better now because I'm an older, wiser person. But in that moment, it was like, if that's not happening, I still need money and I don't want to live my mom and dad forever. So it was like, although actually they now live with us, that is for us.

Speaker A: They are for us.

Speaker B: But in that moment, it was like, you can't just sit here in this situation. So I just got a job.

Speaker A: Brilliant. There's an important mindset lesson. I love that. I love that. Right, sir, defend yourself now. Explain your own paths and twists and turns first of all, and then explain just.

Speaker C: Well, like. Like most teenagers, I fell into booze and go in the pub.

Speaker A: Right, now we're talking. Here's a proper plant.

Speaker C: Well, I'm a bloke, innit? There's no doubt women are definitely more switched on at that age than blokes. That's just a fact of life as far as I'm concerned. So I. I basically fell into catering a little bit, went to catering college, did that. Um, and then went to Herm, which is a little tiny island in the Channel.

Speaker A: All right, okay, okay.

Speaker C: Um, and my sister contacted me. We were missing each other a little bit and they did. Basically what they do is at the start of the season, over the first couple of weeks, they kind of identified the people that are weak or haven't got a work ethic or aren't m going to work out because it's really tougher.

Speaker A: That's it.

Speaker C: Um, to put it. To put it into context, I mean, catering is tough anyway, but back then, it was definitely a lot worse with regards to hours and stuff. So for the first Couple of months. It wasn't too bad. It was basically, we were up at 6 in the morning, worked through to lunch. Then one day a week, you had to work lunch as well. And then in the evening we were back at five and worked the evening till 11. But because we were all between the age of 20 and 25 and all live in. Right. Party, uh, until three, four o' clock every morning, seven days a week, we only had one, one and a half days off. That was it.

Speaker A: Jeez.

Speaker C: And then mid season, they built marquees outside the hotel.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: And when the marquees won, we had to set up the marquees in a day. So we do breakfast till lunch, have lunch in the marquee about half one, work through in the marquee till about half past four.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Back in the restaurant at five, work through till night, drink all night. Because you're in your early 20s, I

Speaker A: think I preferred your plan. Your plan of like the armed forces.

Speaker B: This is what he took me into.

Speaker C: That's what I took him into.

Speaker B: So.

Speaker C: So at the end of the marquee season in particular, we all walked off the pier in our full uniforms because it's like, thank God that's over. Um, and then I went backpacking for six weeks. Ah, okay. And I came back and I didn't have a job, but my sister, who I introduced to her husband, who was the bars manager.

Speaker A: Oh, wait a minute, we've took a turn already. Okay. Right, Right.

Speaker C: I'd stayed in Guernsey because she was trying to give that relationship a go, as such.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: So I came back and was like, I need work. And she's like, well, uh, I think we've got something here. So I then flew across to Coons.

Speaker A: Oh, my God.

Speaker C: And I walked into the bar and my wife was the bar's manager in that particular.

Speaker A: Oh, good morning.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And even worse, Paul's wife and him were literally within half an hour of each other in Manchester at one point in time without knowing each other. And they actually met years later in the Channel.

Speaker C: And one of her uni mates was my first restaurant manager.

Speaker A: The spider's web of connections is unbelievable.

Speaker C: So, yeah. And then. Amazing. Uh, since then I did 30 years in the industry. Right. Wow. A little bit older and stayed in a little bit too long.

Speaker A: Right, okay.

Speaker C: Okay. And now I joined Michelle, obviously, on the property journey. I was interested in what she was doing. Were you?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Um. Uh, I obviously read the books etc to do with the property stuff. Had obviously a pretty good understanding of it. I'm used to profit and loss accounts and business generally.

Speaker A: So. Right.

Speaker C: That's the numbers side of it is something our family are actually pretty good

Speaker A: at generally the whole math thing.

Speaker C: So, yeah, I felt sort of fell into it at that point in the due diligence of. Etc. Just kind of like get on with it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And it's very much a, uh, skill that you use with the whole family because you're doing loads of viewings, you're running the numbers, etc.

Speaker C: Well, I do pretty much all the due diligence. Start off with. Right. I then go and view. Once I've done the due diligence, I do the due diligence on everything I view.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: I offer on everything I view.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: It's become very much a mindset because regardless of price, it's what works for you.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker C: And somebody will always say yes.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker C: So generally between 30 and 40 viewings, I get one over the line.

Speaker A: That's another great thing for people to hear about the stats and how much work you need to put in. You know, it's a numbers game. It's volume, it's everything else. I like that. Ah, okay. And was that planned? Did you kind of deliberately sit down and purposely build out, this is what I'm going to do, this is what I'm going to focus on? Or did you get we've got snuggering already, or did we kind of trip and fall and stumble and, you know, come up with a plan?

Speaker B: So Paul was still working when the property business started. So in the January 23rd, Craig and I did Jumpstart, jumped into protege with Paul McFadden's team. And then originally Craig and I were like, yeah, we'll do the viewings.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And we'll do all this work. We can fit this in around our other businesses, obviously, very naively thinking that we could do that. And then within a few months, I wasn't getting to enough viewings. I was viewing things, but they're not always great environments. Like, they're not the best parts of town. The houses, ah, are maybe a little bit uncomfortable to be in. And I just was like, you know what? I can earn more money doing this thing that I do and I do very well and put that money into the property business to pay Paul's wages,

Speaker A: like an investor would think. Yeah.

Speaker B: So Craig and I sat down and agreed that both of us would contribute initially until we started doing some trades. Both of us would put in half each to cover the cost of Paul.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: And Paul would join the business as long as Paul had done some things beforehand to show how committed he was, which he did. And then he came in full time by the June. So we were first deal over the line and rented in the May. And you joined us in the June.

Speaker C: Well, it wasn't right. M until I joined. Yeah. Basically.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: The purchase was in the May.

Speaker A: I was getting through. Right. Okay. Okay. And what have you learned with viewings, with offers, with negotiation? What kind of wee things pop up to your head?

Speaker C: What's the most important thing? Simple things. The acceptance of rejection.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: You know, If I'm doing 40 viewings.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And I'm only getting one of them. Say yes, please. I'll take that. Uh, yeah, all those people are saying no. And. And a lot of them are. You're only offering that.

Speaker A: Yep, yep.

Speaker C: And being really, um, super negative, shall we say, about what's going on.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker C: Um, but the other thing I've learned is the patience aspect, so.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: One of our deals in particular took 14 months from when I first offered to. When it became ours. Uh, Is that right? And that was just because I kept going back. Yeah. I'm still here if you want it.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Still here if you want it. And eventually they accepted the offer that I originally made.

Speaker A: Really?

Speaker C: Yeah. So even after. I'm not changing what I'm making, I'm not changing my offer.

Speaker A: Sticking to m. My criteria. Uh, I've done some.

Speaker C: Absolutely sticking to where we were at and always working the end market value potential first before we do anything else. But, um. Because that's what's important. And again, that's over time we've learned that. And our TR board now is ridiculous.

Speaker B: Oh, you'll love it. Color code is in everything. There's hundreds and hundreds of properties. You'll love it.

Speaker C: Well, it took. We started off with quite a simple trello board, and then over time, it's been edited and changed.

Speaker A: Of course.

Speaker C: Now it's like this beast of a thing. Rules my life.

Speaker A: No, but you are the master of your system. That's the thing that there's great lessons there, you know, you're sharing with people, especially if they are just wanted. I've not put my toes in yet. I think I want to do properly. But they need to know this. They need to know about volume. They need to know about hard work. They need to know about time. You've covered all those aspects. And the emotional part, you know, that putting an oval. My God. Oh, my God.

Speaker C: Is that something I don't understand that. Because the offer thing to me is like You've done the work before you went right. Why would you not offer?

Speaker A: You've already proved to yourself this is the number, this is the deal.

Speaker C: I don't say why people don't. Because what's the worst that can happen? They say, no, you, you have to accept that over time and get used to it and become a little bit more hard nose.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: Here's what it is.

Speaker A: And do you find you can uh, you justify your enemy? Listen, I'm doing this because the bathroom needs done

Speaker C: and it's to finish to my standard as well. So yes, somebody could go in there and do a 20 grand refit.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: I'm like, no, this is going to be 50 grand because I want to do this, this, this and this.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Uh, we always try and aim for a little bit better standard than potentially what the bottom rung is. And even our buy to let's. We basically took a view early doors that even if it's on an estate we wouldn't want to live in, but when the doors are short, we would want to live in it.

Speaker A: I like that. That's a great view.

Speaker B: So your living environment needs to be something you would be comfortable to live in. Even if it's not the standard of your own home. You need to be proud of it and be willing to say stay there.

Speaker A: Yeah. And even no matter what goes on beyond that boundary, it's inside because that's where you're living, that's where you're sleeping, that's where you're eating, that's where your family is.

Speaker B: So the bathrooms, the kitchens, the finish, the little details for us that makes the difference between an average and a high end. So we have a two bed council house in Dundee renting at £850amonth.

Speaker A: Brilliant.

Speaker B: And yielding on that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But we didn't put massive investment. But that became. Because the finish was so good, we've had one tenant tuck it, date like straight away. We had over 20 applicants on the last time it was rented because everybody wants it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it's not where it is because not the place I would want to live but it's the quality of the home for the marketplace.

Speaker A: That's brilliant. I love that. I love the way you're doing. Let's be honest here. The two words slum landlord isn't going to exist inside this empire, is it? You're just not going to touch it. That's tremendous. That's absolutely tremendous. And uh, do you find Michelle, are you being drawn towards certain strategies? Because there's so Much you can do in property. You can do the flips, you can do bylaws, HMOs, essays. How are you finding a kind of floating above it, helicopter view of business strategies, plans. How are you finding that?

Speaker B: So we've pivoted a lot in all honesty. Um, so in the beginning it was let's do some flips and build some money.

Speaker A: Right, Right.

Speaker B: But then the very first flip was of one that I've just said that we're still renting. I basically said, if it doesn't get an offer in four weeks, I'm keeping it because it's an all money out. So I was like, I'm not going to give it away. If I want the cash back, then I'll do it. But if I don't need the cash back, then let's, let's just keep it.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, and then initially it was let's do some flips. That was the original plan. Um, but we actually own two of the flips now that we've kept. One that we sold because the two

Speaker C: flats we did in Kirumuya kept one and sold.

Speaker A: Right. Okay.

Speaker B: So we basically took the profit and didn't and took all our money from that.

Speaker A: Right. Tremendous.

Speaker B: And then the ones that we've got on now, we've got two flips that we do JVs on.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Uh, so we did that, but the JVS took a bit longer.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Spent a bit more. Um, but at the end of the day, they're both big profit, they're both chunky profits. It's worthwhile, it's worthwhile. Um, one's now sold, thankfully, and the other one should be on the market really soon. So brilliant for us flips was the thing we did for money, but now we've got so much work and support from investors, we don't need to flip for the money.

Speaker A: Tremendous.

Speaker B: So we've pivoted to sa.

Speaker A: Right, okay. So you've got that going on as well. That's fantastic. So that's how that came up. I always wonder, obviously I see your journey and your photos and your videos. Oh, that's interesting. Going that direction. Brilliant. I love that. That's a real business owner perspective of, no, no, we're going to do this this way and we're using other people's money this way. And now we've got leverage, now we've got return, so on and so forth.

Speaker B: You know, we're two and a half years in now.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And from day one, Craig and I had the conversation with Paul originally, like we're only doing this business if it's a seven figure business. We already have businesses.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: And we love our businesses. We're not running away from them. This is an add on rather than something to take all of our time and energy. So very quickly was like, how do we get from where we are now to get to seven figures? And now the asset list is multiple. Seven figures.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And uh, the GDVs on all the projects, if everything came off is in excess 10 million. And it's like that's become something we've managed because we've treated it like a business all the time. We've never taken any cash out. So every time profit comes in, it's utilized in some way within the business or another project or covering costs or whatever. Y and next year with the essays that we've got coming online, I will hopefully start to take some revenue getting cash from them. That's the point.

Speaker A: Ah, exactly.

Speaker C: The essays will give us bigger cash flow.

Speaker A: Brilliant. The assets are paying for themselves.

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker A: They're covering things and then leading to more things, more projects, etc. And Mr. M due diligence, hitting the numbers, making sure before he does the offers and stuff are ah, you always thinking about those different exit strategies, are you making sure you're covered? This is a flip. This is a bite. You like.

Speaker C: This is. Yeah, every time. And in all fairness, um, it's now started. We're looking at more expensive properties.

Speaker A: Right, Right.

Speaker C: But part of the reason for that is I can get bigger discounts. Right, okay. So it gives you more room to maneuver. Yes. So if you've. For God forbid something happens because knowing my lord, something will now. But say I've missed a roof that potentially you need to replace him. Yeah, whatever I can to view it and etc.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um. And then suddenly there's 20 grand to fix it. M well if I've got a hundred thousand pound profit in it. Mhm. It's not that much of an issue. But if I've only got 20 or 30 grand profit in it. Yeah, you're dead.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's right.

Speaker C: So. So we've moved to bigger properties. I've got bigger discounts off the back of that.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Um, and also the quality of the stock we're retaining for the service accommodation model is better quality stock that will last and obviously over time will increase in value.

Speaker A: Yeah, of course.

Speaker C: Better than a flattened Dundee.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's tremendous. A nice rebalance here as well. You know, the diversification, covering yourself, etc. And with SA do you look at it from the market of contractors as a tourist. How are you looking at the balance so far?

Speaker B: Yeah, so we're a bit blended. So we've got the first essay up and running. It's only been two months, but it went from nothing. Came to market quite late in the season. But month one was 60 odd percent

Speaker C: confidence between M60 and 70.

Speaker B: Um, and. And 90 plus currently running at 90 for July and August. So month two and three are running at 90. And, um, we've got bookings in September, October and December. Christmas is booked.

Speaker A: That's fantastic.

Speaker B: But we've gone very high end.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So the agent originally had said to us, I think maybe 395 a night.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And we're getting 500 pound a night.

Speaker A: Seriously.

Speaker C: Wow. I mean, the other thing we did with that. Come on, we created a brand, didn't we?

Speaker B: Yeah. So that's under our Lux Escapes brand

Speaker A: that we're JV ing on Ray Yorke.

Speaker B: And so for something to sit in that brand with our partners, it needs to be an unusual and unique property in a stunning location.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And that brand has been created for that. So for anything to go into that branding, it needs to comply with that.

Speaker A: Uh, it's just, it's got to pass the test to get.

Speaker B: And then it'll get that level of finish.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and we agreed to do 10 in two years with that JV partner.

Speaker A: Brilliant. Brilliant stuff.

Speaker B: Two more on the go at the moment with them currently. Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. Tremendous. What are we finding from those kind of relationships? Investors, joint ventures, communicating with people. How's that been for you?

Speaker B: Investors are strange one. So you know when you originally say to people, you can get investors and they're going to give you money and you're like, who's going to give me money? Although I'm an experienced business person and I had a big business network, you kind of like, who's going to give me their cash? Um, but very quickly, our first investor came on very quickly. So the Kiri Muir flats that we did was with investor support in year one, which I didn't expect. It was someone who'd known me for a long time and was like, everything you do, Michelle, will succeed because you apply yourself to anything you're doing and 100% believe in you. And I had no idea that they had that money. I had no idea what that would look like. But their belief in me made such a difference at that time because it allowed me to go on and have further conversations with investors.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And to know that I can deliver on the back of it. And other people have already trusted me. Plus I was trusting myself like I'd done some self finance as well, off my own property. Um, but it's just that piece of someone else believing in you so early on in the journey, I think helped us be a bit more forward and go in asking people.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, but typically the family members you ask don't necessarily do it, even when you know some of them have plenty of money. So the family members don't get involved and the people who believe in you are actually people you least expect.

Speaker A: Yeah. So you've been surprised by that part of the puzzle, have you?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: I think the other piece is in the beginning, you're keen to take any investment to some extent.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So we were like 50,000 is the minimum we'll take in the beginning because we wanted it to be a sophisticated investor. We never want someone to give us everything they've got because we're already established people. So we weren't ever so desperate that we were going to do that. It needs to align with our values and who we are as people. But now we're like, it's 100,000 minimum and it's a minimum two years because we have investors giving us hundreds of thousands in single transactions and entrusting us for three years, five years. So the chase, if you like, is less. But we always have more projects than we can fund because of you.

Speaker A: Again, she's blaming you.

Speaker C: It's about wrong.

Speaker B: So always raising capital. I feel like, whether it be mortgages, finance. We're now connected to, um, some family banks in London. So we have two family banks that we're now working with for our bigger projects because they need multiple millions of investment. Not many people have that on the street. So, um, you know, all of those relationships sit with me in terms of the legalities, the paperwork, the marketing. Um, but Paul obviously does his piece of that puzzle and then we discuss it. So if it's a big project, he wouldn't just go off an offer. We have a lot of conversations.

Speaker C: An offer. We wouldn't necessarily sign the paper.

Speaker A: He's going rogue.

Speaker C: He's going rogue.

Speaker A: No, but you'll have important relationships in that business model as well, because you're hooking into agents and sellers.

Speaker C: We tend to do both. We tend to do everything together a little bit. So, like, the networking will do together. Yeah. Um, and even the investor meetings, generally, we'll have investor meetings together. We. We find bouncing off each other helps the investor knowledge of what we're doing, I'm looking for. And I can then ask them specifically what they're looking for so that obviously we can try and match their needs.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's more our private investors that we're building for though. So as I said, we always have more projects than I can pay for.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Um, so some of our investors end up with projects with like 80, 90,000 pound discounts because I don't have any cash left and I can't leverage anymore.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So we have a handful of people that we actually will provide those to, but it's a small number. It's not like the guys out there who are doing hundreds of deals in a year. Yeah, like that isn't something I want to be in. I want to be able to build our business, but I also don't want to waste money.

Speaker A: Correct, correct. That's right. Your focus is over here. But when one is there, uh, that I don't quite want that or we don't quite need that. Uh, rather than just letting it go. No, no, I can actually use that. I uh, can actually help someone else and benefit from it as well. I love that. And the relationships with the actual projects, builders, refurbs, etc. Yeah.

Speaker C: Again, we tend to share that a little bit. So I would do a lot of the visits, but my sister would spend time at the weekends in particular. She'll go out and visit sites. Just what's going on. And we kind of like interfering bolt the use of WhatsApp these days. Everybody speaks to everybody all the time.

Speaker A: That's true.

Speaker C: It's just the way it is. So like, you've got your builders on each individual project in a WhatsApp group that are chatting all the time and telling you what's going on and where you're at. And you're like, okay, fine, I'll see if I believe you or not. And then occasionally turn up on site and go, you told me this was done.

Speaker A: Explain, silly. Uh, brilliant market in general, Michelle, where are you finding things? You know, there's kind uh, of doom and gloom, folks. There's people who see all the positives and stuff. Just in general, the country, the supply, demand, buyers, sellers, what's the kind of, you know, general mood that you're feeling and seeing?

Speaker B: So I think the price point we're now operating in makes it challenging if we're selling right. So I definitely feel like when you're over the 300,000, probably over 250, in fairness, um, it takes us longer to sell. So the flips are Taking more like three to five months at that price point. Whereas if you were doing 120 grand, you'd sell it within two days or whatever. So I think there's that piece that you need to be willing to keep the house for longer if you're going to play in that market.

Speaker A: Right. So there's economies within the economy. Right?

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker B: But equally we get the bigger discount because we've gone to that space. So the margin's there. Uh, so it's fine because we've calculated that in and equated it into the deal.

Speaker A: Brilliant.

Speaker B: So that space for us is really interesting in terms of negotiating the discounts. But then the resale period, the market at the low end is so challenging, so competitive.

Speaker C: Really, really competitive.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: I mean, I suppose it depends where you are, but Dundee, I'm sure is the same as Glasgow or Edinburgh or whatever because the yields on the lower end market are so good.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Everybody's invested in it, everybody's out there. You go and do reviewing at 100,000 pound council house and ah, you know what, there'll be 30 people there.

Speaker A: Really? That's the numbers you're seeing on the

Speaker C: ground and generally it'll be over, not under. And you're like. Because, uh. Because those are investors that aren't bothered about getting the money out.

Speaker A: Yes, that's right. It's the yield.

Speaker C: I'm all bothered about getting my yield and as long as I got my yield over time, I'll get the capital growth anyway. So, you know what? Why would I not?

Speaker A: Uh-huh.

Speaker B: A lot of them are trades as well. So because Dundee has a lot of trades that we're relationships with those trades as well. So they'll, they'll do one or two projects a year themselves, using their own skills so that their margin that they can get is higher and then they keep it for rental. So it's a way for them to build their own wealth, which you have to support and applaud. But it just means for us in our current area, because we do Tayside and Fife.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: That's lower level markets, just not where we want to invest right now. And if there was a portfolio and there was an advantage to it, we might.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But as a general single individual purchase, it's just not where we think the market is for us.

Speaker A: Interesting. And with those trades, you're seeing them keeping it as byte late strategies in general. Not really venturing into the SA stuff that you guys are doing.

Speaker B: No, they're very fearful of that generally. I think for them probably Because a lot of them are piecework, almost like they need work to pay their bills.

Speaker A: That's right.

Speaker B: Just 2, 3, 4 by Teletsky. Giving them a couple hundred quid a month is actually meaning that if their work slowed down, they've still got income.

Speaker A: That's right.

Speaker B: And it's not cost them a lot of money because they've been able to do it.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: It's kind of slower, smaller, um, but it's dependable, it's kind of easy to manage.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, whereas the SE stuff user, you're keeping on top of a lot. You know, we've not got tenants, we've got guests. They're coming in, they're coming out and you're keeping on top of things and turning things around and delivering that excellence to them as well.

Speaker C: Hospitality side of it, because we. We both obviously have those.

Speaker A: That's what's going to come. The fact that you've got it is amazing.

Speaker C: It's even just the eye for detail and stuff off that background, I think, has really helped us drive that forward and trying to make ourselves different to the competition. So.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: It's. I think all essay stuff in reality is, can you be something better than whatever's local?

Speaker A: Yes, yes.

Speaker C: Can you beat the competition? Yeah. It's simple as, uh, that. And if you can, you'll get more occupancy and you'll get a higher rate M. If you can do something unique and different as well, then more the merrier. Yep.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Because we heard a story at one of the events we had where, uh. Uh, Bill Shankley, obviously. Glasgow.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yes.

Speaker C: Um. Basically, somebody bought his house, he was born and turned it into a Liverpool temple. So when you go in. When you go in, it's pictures, posters, scarves, all the rest of it.

Speaker A: That's class.

Speaker C: And apparently it's full all the time.

Speaker A: That's fine.

Speaker C: And it's only. It's on a little council estate, obviously, Glasgow, so it's not a beautiful home and a stunning place, but they've worked out a way of making it unique, different, that works. That's.

Speaker A: I've never heard of, uh, that. That is class. That's marketing. That's brilliant. And you're showing. Just going back to, you know, some of the money you're renting out or not renting out, but, you know, these places are getting used. That shows your attention to detail. It shows the places you're buying. It shows, you know, the service we

Speaker B: invested on the furniture. So, you know, we had people offering us furniture packs at sort of 15 to 20k.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Now, I negotiated a lot of things and we probably spent in the region of 40,000, but the value of that was in excess of 50,000. Right. And the artwork's like three or four thousand pounds in artwork. You would spend that on your home if you really wanted to treat yourself. I don't even have some of those pictures in my house. I was like, I actually prefer staying there than to be in your own home. But it's that thing of where would I like to stay? And because I have quite a high expectation on spaces I put myself in, my expectation for our properties is the same.

Speaker A: Yes, I love that. And you explained that well, Paul, that you've got to stand out. Because if I think of myself as a customer, as, I guess my wife and I want to go somewhere in Italy or somewhere in Scotland, wherever you're seeing things on an Airbnb, for example, and those things are either grabbing you or you're just dismissing them. So how does that photo look? How does that furniture pack look? How does that room look? Oh, that's a quirky place. That's what's going to actually drag the customer in, isn't it?

Speaker C: Yeah, we totally think that's the way to go. And we know obviously there are people out there that are doing for trades and such.

Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. Correct.

Speaker C: Um, but their finishes will obviously not be quite as good.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And the rates off the back of that won't be quite as good.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, but hopefully for those people in that space, the occupancy is still good for. For what they're trying to achieve.

Speaker A: That's right. And maybe getting it for longer periods, more money. But it's longer. It's a bit more reliable for them,

Speaker C: actually, if they get insurance companies or whatever.

Speaker A: Exactly. That's right. Which is a big, big market, isn't it?

Speaker C: Absolutely, yeah.

Speaker A: That's tremendous. Let's look back and think lows and highs, challenges, successes, size. Oh, God, Paul, I've upset him now. I'm going to go at Michelle first. When I try and get your brain ace, think of something that was really, really challenging. Or think of another thing. Oh, I tell you, that was really satisfying and great.

Speaker C: What?

Speaker A: Some examples pop up in your brain for you.

Speaker B: Uh, so probably our Kerry Muir flats, um, because we ended up with two flats on a single entrance.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So we had one flat agreed that was on market and we bought. And we bought that and we bought another flat. The one we paid the most m money for had holes in walls and doors and floors. And water was a diy, try to do it myself situation. He'd even taken out the staircase and put a staircase in without any warrants or plannings for that to come out. It was the worst property I thought at that time we'd bought. So I walked into one, I was like, this isn't too bad. And we only paid what for it. Crossed the corridor, literally walked into other one. I was like, have we actually bought this? We've already concluded. And he's like, huh, can you not see the vision?

Speaker A: Even.

Speaker C: Even the not so good one? Yeah, we paid less than you have to pay. Right. The home, um, report was 75 on it. No way should it have been 75.

Speaker B: No. So we looked at it as a. We basically joined it and said between the two of them, we've only paid X amount and market value. Value for the two of them would be X. And we need to do the communal area. So that's how we worked it through and they've made us profit. We've now kept one of those. We have a four bed duplex, uh, and we're renting that out. A thousand pound a month.

Speaker A: Brilliant.

Speaker B: So, you know, it's worked out. But in that moment when I walked in, I was just a little bit like, oh, God. Because at that point we were not JV ing. We were ourselves. So it's the third house we've bought, we're new to property and we've just bought something. I don't think I should stand in. I was just like, how are we going to manage to take this from what we expect it to be? So it's just a little bit at that moment, like, oh, God, Paul, what did we do? Whereas since then we've taken on things that look, okay, we've gone in with our JV partners and they've gone back to brick. Currently we have, uh, the house at Celadyke. It has no walls. It's basically a shell. Because we're waiting on planning as if the mortgage company comes. Don't watch it. It's actually worth less now than it was when we bought it.

Speaker A: Oh, my goodness.

Speaker B: But it will be incredible. It will be absolutely incredible.

Speaker A: It's going to bounce up.

Speaker C: Well, they developed a funding for that. It's like 200 odd thousand.

Speaker A: Right, okay. Okay, that's brilliant. Tell me this then, with those two flats, which one was it that you ended up keeping? The bad one or the good one? The skin.

Speaker B: So you m. Kept the better one. You're right, but this is such a female reason. Right, right. So the kitchen in the dodgy one was, was better, but the bathroom in the other one was incredible.

Speaker A: Uh, ah, right, okay.

Speaker B: So we kept the roll top bath and the double shower and the nice space with a big sweet bathroom and we sold the other one.

Speaker A: Okay, fair enough. Now, before we come to Michelle's high point, looking back, would you share that, uh, as one of the biggest challenges, Is there another project or interaction or something that sticks in your brain? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: So the octomuckty one with the old lady

Speaker A: seems like it started a horror movie.

Speaker B: It's a little bit, it involves police and all sorts.

Speaker C: It's a massive, massive, massive, just forever moment.

Speaker A: What a big learning curve, shall we say?

Speaker C: No, no, no, we didn't learn anything. Nothing other than people are absolutely natters. So in this particular one we'll start with the easy bit. Right, okay. So we go to get the keys. We're at the agents, right? The owner turns up and the owner basically, um, is like, I, ah, can't let you in now. And we're like, hold up, it's all concluded. Um, can you give me the weekend to just empty the property?

Speaker B: She's had weeks at this point.

Speaker C: Well, obviously a month in reality. We've gone through legals. Um, and then it's like the agent was like, get another set of keys, cut and bring them back and give them to obviously us. Right, okay. Right, okay. You can have till Monday. So this is on the Friday. We turn up on the Monday. Nothing's changed in the house.

Speaker B: She's a bit of a hoarder.

Speaker C: Uh, all right, she's a hoarder. Like a bad hoarder. Let me put it this way. We had 20 skips worth of stuff come out of it.

Speaker A: 20?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Okay, so we have that to deal with as well. All right, so this is all, at this point a nightmare. Right? We then go on the Monday, you know what, we'll let you in to get anything that's treasured, important to you, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: But that's it, you're done. She then calls the police and the police turn up and gain contact and like, what's going on here? Okay, we bought a property on Friday. As far as we're concerned, everything in the house at this point is ours and has been ours since Friday. We've given her the weekend to do whatever she needed to do. We've even given her extra time on the Monday to do whatever she needs to do. It's done. Please, like, yeah, absolutely nothing to do with us. Bye.

Speaker B: Then she tells us she slept in there that weekend and we've taken her home from her and we're like, no, we paid you for the home and you're not ever getting my head.

Speaker C: And it's even worse than that because she lived basically behind the main house. Um, was an old coffee shop that came with the house she'd bridged to turn the coffee shop into a home for her to live in.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Which is fine. That was all part of the deeds in the deal and everything else. It was title split and everything was.

Speaker A: Okay, fair enough.

Speaker C: So that was all good. Um, but it meant that she was basically living right behind the house. So when the guys were emptying the skip at night, she was coming in and getting into the skips and trying to get the stuff out of it, going and screaming at the top of her lungs, they're throwing all my possessions away and all the rest.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, and then it turns out that the water for her house is linked to our house and hasn't got its own supply. Okay. So we turned the water off because we're obviously stripping this back to brick and doing a full. Yeah, full refurb on this one. It was a massive project.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And, um, we turn a war off. Yep. She's then contacted again the police. At this point, the police have been like, uh, they didn't even contact us. They were like, there's nothing to do with us. The son contacted us in the end and tried to have a sane conversation with us about the whole situation. So we were like, look, you need to contact Scottish Water and you need to get your own supply point. Because regardless, that's what should happen no matter what.

Speaker A: Correct.

Speaker C: It says otherwise at some point in the future, this will happen again. Yeah. Because even if we give you water now, because we're able to stop it, at some point, we'll put more bathroom stuff in and we'll have to turn it off, etc. Etc. Etc. It's not our responsibility.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: So this went on and on and on, and then we got eam. Then she was threatening court and legal action, um, because we took a water offer that never went anywhere. Funnily enough, we got an email from her that she meant to send to her son to basically say, stay away from me, it's nothing to do with you, it's my house, etc. Etc. And she sent it to me by mistake and then sent a following email saying, you've probably already read it, but that wasn't meant for you. So that Whole situation was like, really, there was nothing we could have done differently.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: But it does definitely show that, you know, property throws up some obscurities at times.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And human behaviour's quite remarkable.

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker A: So we'll end on that. No, we won't. My God. Let's not end in that point.

Speaker B: Don't do it with the phrases.

Speaker A: Let's go back to the peaks of property. What moments, milestones, things, encounters have brought you satisfaction.

Speaker B: You know, so always the day it's finished.

Speaker A: In all honesty, I knew this would be worth it.

Speaker B: Always the finished days when I go, we did a good job.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like you feel proud, like when you've brought something that, uh. Because everything we've taken on has had disrepair, has needed modernized, even nice homes have needed love. So otherwise we couldn't have made more money on them at the end of the day. So, you know, the Dundee project, for example, that's now under offer and hopefully will conclude in the next few months. That was a three bed, one bath. It's now a full five bed, four bath.

Speaker C: Wow.

Speaker B: Um, and it's a full brand new family home. So you take something that's not has love for 20, 30 years in terms of furniture and decoration and things, completely revamp it and now you're creating a home for somebody for the future. Like, that's really rewarding for us to know that a, uh, family are going to benefit from that space and that work that we've done. So it's not just the money. The money is important. It's why we do business. We're not naive enough to think we do it just because we like it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It's too hard, you know, but knowing that you've done that is really rewarding. Um, so those are sort of the highs for me that when projects are finished and then the other one is when we started to step up. So my mindset's very positive. Paul's is now very positive. Just because, like, we've had different lives and done different work on ourselves, but Paul and I now are on a similar, similar wavelength.

Speaker A: Brilliant.

Speaker B: So we know any project is possible for us with the right team. So we're currently 10 months into negotiation on a land deal. When it goes over the line will make a big difference to us. We're in legals for a hotel. Uh, that will be a 22 apartment hotel.

Speaker A: Right. So I've seen it. Right, okay.

Speaker B: Ah, these things have come about because we're not afraid to take on bigger challenges. But the work and the due diligence is so similar. You just need the right team that are looking at different elements of it because it's a more specialist topic.

Speaker A: Correct.

Speaker B: And that stepping up for me is probably the proudest part for me because I've had to learn so much.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And all the stuff that goes with that, uh, raising larger amounts of finance. It's very different from a 50 grand mortgage to 4 million pound loan. Um, all of these things have seen me grow and that is probably where my pride is.

Speaker A: That's brilliant. There's properties that are growing and going back to the big one you've done the big development on, there's the business growing and then there's you growing the people. That's amazing. That's a fantastic thing to learn. Is there specific projects or moments that pop up to yourself or you know, satisfaction or achievement?

Speaker C: It's similar as you've gone along really. I mean we've learned so much now that.

Speaker A: Oh you must.

Speaker C: We quite literally. Mainly you know that if you've got the right professionals.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: Like your architects and your technical teams and build teams etc. That there is nothing that scares us anymore at all. We're just going to get on with it.

Speaker A: Head down.

Speaker C: Let's have a look at this and see what we can do and make it work. I'm. I'm particularly proud of the first one that I bought. Not going to lie.

Speaker A: Nice.

Speaker C: Because.

Speaker A: Because it was a first or because of the nature of the project?

Speaker C: Two things. Okay. So I, I can be honest about it, so might as well. We've told people, we've disclosed it before. Basically I bought one of the Kiri muir flats, the first one. Um, so it was home reported at 85 and um, I bought it for 15.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker C: Um, and basically while I was walking around it with the owner, he basically as a flippant remark said look, just give me 20 quid, I just want out.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker C: Because he bought it for his daughter. His daughter had lived there and kind of put the odd hole here and there because a cat had got behind things and stuff like that. But so, but it wasn't overly bad. Um, it's just he was sick of the council getting on at him. M. Because the home had been empty for over two years and all the rest of it and he just wanted out of it. So I came away from that viewing and I came back to the office and said to Michelle, um, and Craig, I was like, what can we give this guy? I said look, I tell you what, how about something like 15,000? Because then he can have a really nice holiday and he'll be over the moon with that. Compared to the obviously the flippant remark around 20, 20 quid. So I phoned him up and he said I'll speak to wife and get back to you. And straight away got back to me and accepted it. And I had the most. Yes. Got one over the line because obviously at that point I've still been viewing a number of properties. I was early in my viewing career for. Of a better word and I was only probably two months in on that. So I probably viewed between 50 and 80 properties at least.

Speaker A: Yeah. You guys are great list.

Speaker C: I finally got one over the line. Yeah. Now the other side to that was this. As my sister said, the worst

Speaker A: flat.

Speaker C: We did the right thing in my eyes.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Ethically. Yeah.

Speaker A: So great.

Speaker C: So the owner of that was an ex serviceman. Ah.

Speaker A: Uh.

Speaker C: He come back from Iraq, took his payment. I think it was 40000 he had or something like that. Basically bought this flat and was doing it up himself.

Speaker B: Ah.

Speaker A: Uh.

Speaker C: But what we found when we got in there was um. Basically. Basically he built himself almost a bunker in the loft.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker C: He was working out of um. And I think he was just hiding from the world and getting over everything that was going on. So whilst as Michelle says the house was a particular disaster and we. And we obviously paid a lot more than we did for the first flat.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Where it was worth less because although the home report was 75 it wasn't worth. It was barely worth the 39, 999 that we obviously. Obviously paid for it. Right. I think we did the right thing.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: We still made a little bit of money out of it. It's not like it. It cost us money.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And we ended up doing obviously the. The main hallway that we shared between the two.

Speaker A: Exactly. That's right.

Speaker C: It kind of worked out for the best. But I felt we'd done the right thing. Yeah. As much as anything else because I think we do believe in family and people and.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: We're trying to look at the best in people generally.

Speaker B: It's the energy piece isn't it? So for me if we're doing good things with the best of intention and if we get it wrong then we can put our hands up and say we made a mistake.

Speaker A: Uh.

Speaker B: But it does mean sometimes we'll do things like that that maybe don't 100% make sense on a business sense.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: But it feels like the right thing to do.

Speaker A: That's right.

Speaker B: And I don't ever want to get to a point where I stop connecting with people and caring about people. Because what's the point in being in business if you don't.

Speaker A: Correct.

Speaker B: So there will be times where we just. We move the dial a little bit. Mhm. Not so much it's going to cost us, but a little bit.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: To do what's right.

Speaker A: And it's things you can really put on a spreadsheet as such. But my God, it's priceless and my God, that keeps you going and lifts you up and pushes you on to the next one.

Speaker B: And he's doing great. So that guy, now he's living with a new partner. He's got mental health support, he's got the cash lump sum that he'd lost.

Speaker A: Yes, exactly. That's right.

Speaker B: So his future now is bright.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And that just feels like it was worth it.

Speaker A: You have done that. That's ah, that is beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. Now I want to be respectful your time. Um, let's look to the future. What are the big plans? What's your milestones? What things have you got in your head? Is there certain.

Speaker C: We've got a couple of simple ones. So, um, uh, 200 keys is the current thing that we're looking at. Right. So, uh, within a relatively short period of time. Right. When I get to 200 keys.

Speaker A: Uh-huh.

Speaker C: We always said when we first went in, well, I first went in, it was 10 and done. So it was 10 years.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker C: And now that might change because, hey,

Speaker A: uh, but, but you set yourself a target.

Speaker C: Well, it might change either the positive or the negative. So it might be five years ago, you know what, I'm done. Or it might be in 10 years. I'm actually really enjoying this. I've no doubt financially it be doable.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker C: Um, it's more to do with whether I actually still want to do it or not when we get to that point. Uh, so yeah, we're at 200 keys now is the. Is the next.

Speaker B: I set that last target. It's a new target. Came in last week.

Speaker C: We sat and chatted about it. It was like, well, we want to do this. We want to do this one. Right. It's 200 keys then. Right, okay, crack on. And now we're with just recently sort of planning to potentially go into England rather than up here. Because planning is easier.

Speaker A: Exactly. So different markets, different strategies, different economies. Yeah, I like it. That's tremendous. And Michelle, you've got this property thing to look at, milestones, looking forward, et cetera. But You've got your other businesses, things get on there. What does the future look like for yourself?

Speaker B: So I'm always a mix like you say. So the utility, green tech business. Right. Um, for that business, we're growing that and continue to build that up. Um, and Craig takes the lead on that most of the time because I'm doing the other stuff and then my coaching business is the piece that I'm going to pick back up. So over the last two years I've had to really slow down that because There is only 24 hours in the day and I can't run at this pace on property and utility and give 40 hours a week to my coaching. So I pivoted my coach into groups instead of so much one to one and consultancy. And um, this year I'm doing some speaker training. I've just secured my first international speaking event in Dubai, um, which is literally off the press. I signed the contract yesterday.

Speaker A: We're getting all the breaking news. This is brilliant.

Speaker B: And so it'll be my first international speaking opportunity to go and talk to leaders that work in the innovation and business space around how mindset can help them and alleviate, um, the sadness and the pressure and all the other stuff that goes with that and helping them to open up and talk about things that are normally off the table and very much that. If you can talk about it, you can address it. And I think in business, and certainly for entrepreneurs that isn't the case, they tend to hide it, thinking they're going to get attacked or something bad's going to happen to them. So we're going to open that space up and so that's something I'm going to be doing later this year.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: And the coaching, really, for me, that's my forever business. It was the first one. It was the thing I love. It's what I'm here to do and it'll be the thing that goes into retirement for me.

Speaker C: I'm convinced you'll do that till you pop off this planet.

Speaker A: Thanks. That's our thing, that's our purpose, our mission.

Speaker B: Yeah, it just fills me up with joy.

Speaker A: Ah, fantastic. That's where we'll end it. Not down in the doldrums on a high there. The ease of set, uh, ah, tremendous. There you go folks. What a story. What a pair. There's something else. They've stopped fighting now, which is good. And remember when it's safe to do so, go into the show, notes go down, see all the links, everything off to follow these folks, get in touch with them, etc. Who knows? Will you be able to be coached by this lady? Will you be able to become an investor with a property business? Good luck to you if you can, but for today. Michelle Paul, thanks a million.

Speaker B: Thanks, Richard.