From Flips to Fortunes: Brandon Rickman on Building Real Estate with Heart

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to this Week in Property. I'm your host, Richard Swan. And in today's show we have Mr. Brandon Richmond. Brandon, hello sir, how are you?

Speaker B: Hey Richard, I'm doing great, how are you?

Speaker A: Fantastic. It's great to have you. Now the first thing that I know our uh, listeners and viewers will already have triggered with your wonderful accent is that, wait a, um, minute, this guy is not from the uk? That's correct. We have Brandon, who is a real estate investor from Atlanta, Georgia. Oh yes, all the way across the pond. Now before those listeners then say, well, wait a minute, how does that help us if it's UK property and stuff? So if I say to you then hold on, property is property, right? Put locations aside. This is a guy who can talk about how to source off market sellers. We can chat about how to negotiate with potential sellers, how to raise private money, how to invest in larger generational wealth strategies. Then Brandon, I think I've got them back on site, which is good. Uh, I'm going to seal the deal for them. I'm going tell our listeners a wee bit about you, which is very impressive. Slipped over 500 properties developed, over 100 new build homes owned, short term rentals, long term rentals, you've raised private money, you own your own private lending business, you're an entrepreneur, not just in the uh, property space. You have built and sold several different companies, businesses. And currently jumping back to property, you're developing a, uh, 115,000 square feet self storage facility. That's pretty damn impressive, sir.

Speaker B: Thank you. That's over a long, long, uh, career. So we've been doing real estate for about 25 years now. So that was over a long period of time. But yeah, it's been, it's been a fun ride.

Speaker A: It certainly has. And has it always been property or you guys like to call it real estate? Is there anything before, you know, has your career taken you on different twists and turn or have you just always had a plan in your head with property?

Speaker B: Yeah, I've always been involved in real estate. So my father was a real estate, uh, developer and builder as well. And so my brother and I kind of grew up old school. He taught us how to dig footings, how to pour concrete, how to roof a house, how to hang drywall, everything. So you know, when we were kids and going through high school, on the weekends we were working on job sites. So we both kind of grew up in it. My brother is now on the commercial side. He's a commercial developer. I stayed more on the Residential side initially and now obviously like you said,

Speaker A: doing the self storage, that's uh, fantastic. It's all down to dad. Hey dad, Softy juices out. That's fantastic. Absolutely. But keeping it in the family, I love that as well. And is it still very much a family thing? I know. I believe you're married. Is it a daughter you have as well, that 15 year old son?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. So married for 24 years now and have a 15 year old son. And my brother. Uh, so my dad is no longer, he's retired, he's no longer in the business. Um, my brother is on the commercial side. He works for another developer. So it's just me and my wife and my son. Ah, now in this business, that's tremendous.

Speaker A: Good. You've not got the young lad digging ditches and going up ladders, have you?

Speaker B: Oh, he's, he's got to learn the same way I did. He's gonna, he's gonna come up and know how to do everything. I, I don't know how to work on a car or do mechanical stuff, but my wife is very happy that I know how to work on a house.

Speaker A: I'll bet she is. That's fantastic. And when you take your first steps in, obviously you've explained there with your dad, uh, and showing you stuff and you and your brother who's in the commercial side for you, your own empire that you're building if you like. Where did that first go to? Was it doing the flips? Was it owning a rental? What was the baby steps?

Speaker B: Yeah, the first thing we did was actually flipping houses. So again I grew up around construction. It didn't bother me. I knew how to do a lot of the work. And so, uh, my wife was actually a math teacher at high school and I was working for a local builder here in town building houses for them. And we found a house in our neighborhood that was run down and the seller, uh, was just looking to get out. The parents were actually moving into an assisted living facility and so they sold us the house at a, at a cheaper price. And then my wife and I went in and did all the work ourselves, which I don't recommend. Um, we learned the hard way, but probably, uh, took us longer and cost us more than it would have if we would have subcontracted the work out. But at the end of the day we sold the property, made uh, some extra money on the side and that was kind of, you know, we said let's just do this a couple times a year and make Some extra money. We really didn't have a vision at that time for, for building a big real estate business. But the more we did it, the more opportunities came our way and eventually we got up to where we were doing 100 houses a year. Um,

Speaker A: that's fantastic. That's a busy, busy couple. And you've explained there. One of the things that I think a uh, lot of investors, especially developers are uh, so, so keen on, it's chasing that golden nugget if you like, and off market sale, a sale where you can actually negotiate a discount, so on and so forth. What have you found to be some of the best strategies for, for yourself for finding those kind of deals?

Speaker B: Yeah, we've traditionally we've done all of them, we've done all the above over the years. But you know, our number one go to has been direct mail. Um, I know there are some differences in, in property, in real estate, you know, across the pond. But I think there's a lot of similarities too. But direct mail has always been our number one outbound marketing channel. We do um, a lot of cold calling and texting as well. And then uh, we also do pay per click, pay per lead, um, which I think those are pretty good. I think all of them kind of ebb and flow. They go up and down um, throughout the course of the year. But you know, pay per lead is pretty good because it's only uh, it only gets delivered to me as a qualified lead once it's gone through a series of questions from other people. So by the time I get it, I know it's someone who wants to sell, they own the house, they're interested in selling and they want to sell it in a hurry for a reason. So pay per lead is pretty good. But yeah, direct mail has always been our number one source.

Speaker A: That's tremendous. I like the fact that you've got that filtering technique. You know, you're not just dealing with everything. You've not got a whole bunch of noise. They've jumped hurdles, they've went through doors to, you know, kind of, yeah, can I qualify? Qualify the leads before it gets to you. To properly try and try and help someone, of course is what you're doing. Ah, because you're helping your own business. If you can acquire an asset, that's fantastic. But you're helping people as well, aren't you? Because some people, they're in a pickle. Some people, they maybe have to move quickly because they've got a new job in a completely different state. These off market deals can actually help so many different people, can't they?

Speaker B: Yeah, they can. And we. We've, uh, evolved over the years into a real estate service business. So we. My wife is a real estate agent, our acquisition manager. One of our acquisition managers is a real estate agent. We actually, when we go out and talk to a seller, um, we present to them, you know, let me hear more about your property and more importantly, your specific situation. And let me tell you how we can help you because we do this, you know, 50, 60 times a year now. Um, most people have only buy and sell a house a couple times in their lifetime, so they're not experts at it. So we present ourselves as a service company, and based on your situation, we have a couple of different ways we can help you. If you're interested in selling in a hurry and you need to sell for some reason, then we can help you. We can give you a cash offer. We can close quick, no inspection, no appraisal. You know, we'll use our own cash. If you're not in a hurry and you need some more time, um, but you want to get a higher price, maybe it's not a good fit for us, but we have a lot of other investor partners that we work with who buy rentals in this area. They might be willing to pay more because they're going to do less rehab or they're going to hold it for the long term and therefore they don't need to make as much as a return. So we met. We can send it out to some of our investor partners and see if they might have an interest. And if so, uh, they'll close directly with you and get you a higher price. And then of course, the option, you know, if you want full retail and you're not in a hurry and you have a little bit more time, we can list the property for you on the full, you know, on the. On the retail market.

Speaker A: That's tremendous. Yeah, your wife has got that access as well as a realtor. That's. That's tremendous. I love the fact that you're, uh, you've chosen to think more about them. I love that. Because there's too many people in the real estate game that they're giving the rest of us a bad name. They're just going out and all they're doing is lowballing. All they're doing is just throwing numbers at it. They don't care. I don't care what position you're in. I'm just trying to get a big, massive discount. But you're Taking that differently. You've got, you've got morals, you've got ethics. You're actually trying to help the person and you're actually trying to show them different options as well. The way that you're explaining it, have you just always done it that way?

Speaker B: No, we haven't. We've actually evolved into that. We, um, you know, at one point we were only buying to flip houses. Um, and then of course we bought long term rentals and short term rentals. So we would look at it, is this something that we can buy as a rental or is this something we want to flip? And then once we built up a relationship over the year, you know, 10, 15 years with a lot of other investors in town, we realized some of them were willing to pay more than we were. And so we could put it under contract and then sell it to them and they would pay us a finder's fee, uh, of 3,000 or 5,000 or 8,000. But it helped the, the seller, it helped the buyer, and we were able to make some money to get paid back for our marketing that we were doing. So over time we just kept adding these options and then, you know, eventually it was, you know, we can, we can kind of handle everything from start to finish. You know, four or five different options that we can help you with. And you know, it just depends on your situation. So we kind of evolved into what I say. We're more of a real estate services company than we are a flipper.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. You really, you've got so many strings to your bow, as they like to say. So when you speak about those other investors and you know, having that network around you, is that mainly the way that, you know, you've over your thing, this is that you've built, been able to get private funding, private finance, or has there been different avenues you followed?

Speaker B: Yeah. So, um, I split it up into three buckets. This may go into more detail than you care to hear right now, but here in the States, we kind of have three different buckets of financing. Number one is institutional financing, which is like a bank mortgage broker type thing. Lower interest rates, harder to get because they want W2s tax returns. You have to make so much money to be able to afford your own house, plus what, whatever one you're going to flip. So lower interest rate, harder to get. The next bucket. We call hard money lenders. Um, and so a hard money lender is a company who is pulling money from other investors. So let's say they're raising money from a bunch of different investors, they're agreeing to pay them back 8 or 9% and then they're turning around and loaning that out to other flippers at 10, 11, 12, 13%. And so they have higher interest rates, they have big pools of money available and they're much easier to deal with. So interest rate goes up, but it's based on the property, not based on your W2s, your taxes, all that. And then the third bucket, which I like the most is called private lending. And that's um, with people who know you, like you and trust you. So family, friends, uh, you know, people you've worked with in the past. We do a lot of the investors here in town, we kind of invest in each other's deals and it's, it's interest rate is about the same as hard money, um, but much more flexible. So I could call and say, hey, I've got this deal, I'm closing tomorrow, I need this much cash and if it's somebody who knows me and has invested with me before, they'll loan me 100% of the purchase price and the rehab up front. So now I have that money in my bank account that I can do the rehab with instead of using my own money on that particular deal and then pay them their return at the end of the deal. So those are kind of the three buckets. My preferred method is private. Second method that I prefer would be hard money and then last option would be institutional banks.

Speaker A: Yeah, working bike with me. No, that makes perfect sense. Quite similar, actually. Very, very kind of similar to the UK market and the way of looking at it at least. And for the people who, in that final pool we were talking about, you know, the private money coming in, they're giving you all the capital, the refurb costs, etc, then they're getting, uh, a percentage return. Let's say, for example, do you find that they, they want to be hands off? Do you find that they have a connection? And this is property I can trust this. I actually know what's happening here. You know, as safe as houses is one of the, the cliches in the world. You know, we're not, we're not saying something about strange here. Do you find that that's what they have, those kind of investment beliefs?

Speaker B: I think it's um. So a lot of our private lenders have other jobs where they have good income. They have a 401k retirement plan or an IRA and so they have extra capital and they want to be more of a passive investor. They're not Necessarily, uh, knowledgeable about real estate, but they're knowledgeable enough about me and my history, and they know, you know, they trust me, and they, they, uh, have seen me, you know, borrow money and pay investors back for 25 years. So for them, it's about getting that, um, that return, you know, 9, 10, 11, 12% return on their money that's otherwise just sitting in a, an IRA or a 401k that's earning very little or sitting in a CD that's making 2 or 3%. And then I think the other thing that's interesting is they're in first lien position on the property. So they're. They're like the bank. So I don't know of other investments where you have that much security. You know, we're buying property at $0.70 on the dollar, $0.60 on the dollar sometimes. And so they're loaning money at a price that's way below value. Um, and so if, if something were to happen to me and they were to take the house back, they've got it well enough below market value that they could turn around and sell it and recoup their money. So they're getting a return, but they also have a backstop, I think, with the, uh, with the, uh, being in first lien position that most other investments don't offer.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, definitely. And you guys are calling it first lean. We call it first charge here, but it's the exact same thing, just. Just different words that we're playing with. I like that. Because security gives security an investor, they actually emotionally feel more secure. And then, of course, what you've really spoke about, the real important thing is the human involved. That human trust you as a human. They actually know about you. They know about your history and your expertise, etc. That's fantastic. Now, all of those developments, all of those rentals, you must have seen it all. As they say. What pops into your head if I say to you, scan the history, scan backwards. Brandon. Challenges. Some of the biggest challenges that you faced, you know, has it been with particular sellers and the position they've got themselves in is a maybe particular properties. You've opened up the floorboards and. Oh, my goodness, you can't believe what you're finding. What pops into your head with the word challenges?

Speaker B: Oh, man, there's been so many of them, it's hard to. Hard to say. I would, I would say two things. One is, um, working with institutional banks. And I, I kind of have this in my, my background. So in, uh, 2008, 2009 timeframe. You know, real estate market crashed and we were doing new construction, flipping houses. We had a great relationship with multiple banks and they basically just called and said, uh, hey, you know, we're going to call all your loans due. We're not. The market's coming crashing down. I know you've been working with us for four or five years and we have a great relationship. We know this is going to hurt our relationship in the future. But at the end of the day it's a decision we have to make um, to protect ourselves. And so you have to pay all your loans in 30 days and we're not renewing them and sorry. And so, you know, I'd spent years and years and years developing these relationships. I had, you know, multiple millions of dollars of lines of credit and all of a sudden they just said we're done and pulled the plug. And so that was a nightmare. Um, you know, we were fortunate. Through the process we were able to sell off the properties, pay off all the loans and do all that. But it wasn't quick or easy, um, but we were able to get it done. So that was, that's one of the reasons that I have an aversion to working with banks is because I've been through it and I know when things are going well, they're your best friend and when they decide to change things, they'll change it overnight and there's nothing you can do about it. So um, that was one of the things I do still use institutional banks like for long term loans, like a rental property, um, or something like that. Obviously I don't want to pay 11, 12% for 30 years. So I'll go to a bank and get a six and a half, seven percent rate these days. But, and then I would say the other thing that's, that's difficult is when you're buying off market properties and specifically looking for distressed properties, properties where the seller has a motivation to sell, a reason to sell. Majority of the time that we're dealing with those people, there's a reason why they're in financial trouble. And so you're not, you're not commonly dealing with people who um, make wise decisions. They have, they're very intelligent, they have great history. They, you know, there's sometimes it's just coincidence, right, like they fell on hard times or they inherited a house they don't want. But a lot of times it's dealing with people who have other issues, um, in their life. And so trying to work through all those different things with all those different people, you know, they'll sign a contract with you and then three days later they want to terminate because someone else offered them more and they don't understand, well, we already have a signed contract and you're not legally allowed to do that. Or, you know, get to closing and they decide all of a sudden they want more money than what they've agreed to. And so just dealing with, dealing with sellers who are not realistic or not knowledgeable about the process is, is difficult in this line of business, for sure.

Speaker A: Yeah. Wherever people are involved. Oh my goodness. So there's always fun. What about the, uh, the actual process, the purchase process in the States? I wonder how that is, because if I had to maybe just generalize and, you know, summarize the UK problems, it's very slow for us. Our, uh, solicitors, lawyers, whatever you want to call them as very slow, very old processes. Letters going back and forth, you know, not really using tech to its best advantage. You know, a really long, slow, arduous process. That, that would be your, uh, your main problem here. And uh, the other one grow in is, uh, in the world of development, uh, whether it's new build or we're just trying to refurbish something or maybe even change, commercial interresidential, that kind of thing, the biggest headache we've got is with our planners, with our councillors, you know, approving things and giving building warrants. Is it similar pain points in the states or do you face different things?

Speaker B: I don't think it's quite as bad in the states. It depends on the city that you're working with, the city government and the state that you're in. So in Georgia, where we work, it's called an attorney state. So we either have attorney state or title state. In a title state, you're allowed to close a transaction with a title company. In a attorney state, you have to go through an attorney and then an attorney hires a title company to work with them. So, you know, we, we have attorneys, uh, here in Georgia who are very skilled at working with investors. The one that I prefer to work with and we do a lot of transactions with, um, they have a whole investment division. So they cater to investors like me and they can, you know, we've closed properties in five days from contract to close. Um, pulling the title takes usually about five to seven business days. And then if the title's clear, um, and certainly if the house was paid for and there's no payoff that has to go to a bank or anything, then, you know, as soon as the title's back, we can close. We're paying cash, so we don't have to wait on a bank. And they don't have a mortgage, so they're not waiting on a payoff. So it's. Just get the title back, make sure it's clear, we can close and, you know, five to seven days. Um, so that's not a problem when you're doing rehabs. Ah, here. I think you said refurbish is what you call. If it's. If it's a cosmetic rehab, then we don't have to pull a permit. So if we're just changing out paint, um, colors, flooring, um, you know, light fixtures, door, hardware, things like that, you don't have to pull any kind of permit. But if you're doing. If you're moving any electrical, plumbing, H vac, heating and air, um, certainly on a new build, you have to pull a permit. And that process can be anywhere from same day in some areas. You can walk into that county office if it's a rehab, and get the permit the same day. And it can take up to six or seven months to get a permit.

Speaker A: Right. Okay. Okay. Excellent. And, uh, challenges aside, you know, the negative aside, let's talk about the fun stuff. What's been some of your biggest satisfactions on your journey? You know, whether it was a particular project or a particular milestone you had? Anything at all that comes to mind?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think about some of the people that we've helped get out of bad situations. And, um, one of them in particular that is really a highlight for me is a couple years ago, but it was a lady whose husband passed away suddenly unexpected, and she didn't even know what all assets they had. She didn't know whose name they were in or there was no will. And so when we first met with her, she was crying, she was upset. Um, we were actually, uh, able to pray with her and kind of help her through that process. But we helped her take her property through the probate process, which took 13 months, um, to go through this process and get it approved for her to sell it. And during that time, we talked to her on the phone. I don't know how many times, 15 times, 20 times, um, connected her with our attorneys. We, um, again talked. Every time we would talk to her, she would get emotional, talking about her husband and. And we were just kind of there for. And helped her and again prayed for through the process. So, anyway, we finally got to the closing table and we were sitting there with the attorney, me and the seller and the attorney. She got emotional again and she said, you know, I just wanted to tell you how helpful you guys have been to me through this whole process. She said, certainly with getting the property sellable and helping me sell it to you guys and get the money, um, but also just the emotional, you know, it's the most difficult time in my life and you guys were there for me, you helped me, you prayed with me. And she said, you know, it's renewed my faith in God and I've gotten back involved with church. So I just wanted to say thank you. So that was great for us. You know, that was, uh, more than the money and stuff like that, where those are the things that stick out to me. You know, at the end of the day when you do hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of houses and you, you know, we've. Our self storage facility is 865units. So the numbers of properties that you do becomes less and less important. And like you mentioned before, it's more about the people. And I'm grateful that we're able to help people and they appreciate it. And that's what's the most meaningful to me.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's fantastic. What a story and what a memory for you as a family and being able to look back on that, I mean, that's fantastic. Well done. Self stories. Then why on earth did we open that box? There you were just cruising along, enjoying real estate. Now you've got this gigantic project. How did that come about?

Speaker B: Yeah, so one of the things that I've realized over the years is that the businesses, the real estate that I was involved with were transactional. So if you think about a new build or a rehab on a new build, you go find a lot, you build a house, you sell it, you make money. Well, now you got to go find another lot. Same thing with rehabs. You buy a house, you rehab it, you sell it, you make good money. Now you got to go find another house to rehab. And so I consider those transactional businesses. And we own single family properties, um, which is great, but you may only cash flow 100, $200 a month. And so you're waiting on the appreciation, which is likely 10, 15 years down the road. So I wanted to find something that I could spend more time and money and energy on up front. But once I did it, it would continue to pay month after month after month for as long as I wanted to keep the asset. So we started looking at multifamily properties and we started looking at self storage. I love self storage. Because as an example, in our 865 unit, uh, facility, we have two bathrooms and one sink. So you don't have, you know, if you had 865 houses, imagine all the roofs, all the toilets, all the water heaters. So with a storage business, you don't have all of that upkeep. Most people take their stuff there, they drop it off. They might not go back for three or four months. Months, um, and they keep paying for it. Um, so I love the model and look for some existing facilities that I could buy and add value to and raise rents and couldn't find anything. So ended up buying these two residential properties that were beside each other on four and a half acres, bought that, took it through the zoning process, got it approved for self storage, and then, you know, raised the money from other investors and, uh, off to the races building that facility up.

Speaker A: That's tremendous. You think? I'm just explaining that, uh, you've got an entrepreneur brain. You've got a brain that looks for opportunity. Do you think you've had that just in you genetically? Do you think your dad and him being in the business and stuff that's filtered down to you, or do you think it's a skill that you've grown through your journey or. It's maybe a bit of all of them, but where do you think it comes from for you?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question. Um, very interesting conversation. That's probably a conversation we could have for a separate, separate hour. But I think it's a combination of all of them, really. I, um. So my brother used to be an entrepreneur. He kind of lost the desire for it as he's gotten a little bit older. Um, I tell people it's a blessing and a curse, you know, to be an entrepreneur. I think a lot of people, especially in the States, they. The term entrepreneur is kind of a cool catchphrase. Um, but when you start talking to them, um, you know, they've never started anything. They bought a business from someone else or they inherited it from their parents. And to me, you know, an entrepreneur is, is someone who has this in their gut. So back to, you know, heritage maybe, or legacy. But, um, it's what motivates me to get out of bed in the morning. It's what I'm excited about. It's the new opportunity. There's not a, you know, people say, well, how much money do you want to make? What's your goal? I've never in my life had a goal for making money. I don't. Money is A byproduct of doing what I love to do. Um, yeah, and it obviously affords, uh, affords you the lifestyle and the things that you want to do. But for me, it was about being an entrepreneur and starting something and building it up and being able to help employees and people that work for us and help families. And so, I mean, I was the kid, you know, reselling stuff on the corner when I was 6, 7 years old. Lemonade stands and, um, donut stand, selling donuts door to door and. And, you know, all the way up through my whole life, I've always, always been an entrepreneur. So it's, you know, it's just in my gut, it's in, uh, it's in me. And, you know, if I. One of my friends tells me I'm unemployable, it's like, you could never work for anybody else. You would be horrible. You get fired in a day. So my whole career, since I was. Since I graduated from college, um, I've worked for a company for two years, and that was when the real estate market crashed in 0809. I went to work for a buddy of mine for two years. Other than that, the rest of my career has been on my own.

Speaker A: So new. That's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. And I think you're right. You've touched upon something really important there as well, the psychology around, uh, the money. Because for a lot of time, if people chase the money, chase the number, chase that target, it's a long, hard struggle. They'll probably never get there. And it's just full of anxiety and stress and desperation. With you. No, no, no, no. I' chasing what I love doing. I'm chasing the activity. I'm chasing the thing that I can get my hands on. Today. Money will just come. Money's a byproduct. Money is the result. I can wait on that. I'm fine. I'm doing this. I love that. It's a totally different psychology. That's fantastic. And the other thing your team was telling me about was, um, you've also got a focus on interest in larger generational wealth strategies is how they cluster. What does that mean to you when you think about those things?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, part of, like we talked about before with, with our son, you know, part of it is, is raising him up to be, um, you know, whether he wants to be an entrepreneur or not, we'll. We'll see. But I want him to have the ability, the knowledge, um, if that's what he wants to do, that he can do It. So I want to teach him, um, the real estate game. And if he wants to do real estate, great. If he wants to do something else, that's fine too. We'll support that. But when it comes to generational wealth, I want to have something, I want to have a legacy, um, not only the property itself. So, like, the self storage facility would be something that, um, you know, we could hand down to our son. Um, at some point it's fully occupied and it's generating a lot of monthly cash flow. So eventually we could pass it down to him. Um, so that's part of it, but I think the other part of it is, you know, again, wealth to me is partially financial and maybe more importantly not financial. It's who we are. The kind of, the kind of way we operate our business, our morals, our beliefs, our ethics, all of that combined with the property, I think is generational wealth. And so that's our goal, is to teach our son from scratch, you know, how to do it, how we operate in business, who we are, what we believe in, what we support, how we treat other people, how we operate in business. And then this is what it's been able to build by operating that way. And if this is something that you're interested in in the future, then you can come into the business and learn the business and be able to take it over at some point when we're, when we're done doing it.

Speaker A: Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. That is a perfect way to end the conversation. Just different class. What a guy. Brandon, it's amazing. There's great inspiration from your story. So many people will get encouraged by it, inspired by it. I think it's fantastic. And it's quite obvious that property, real estate is just a vehicle for you, but it's the way that you're chasing life, it's the way that you're building, building things. It's the way you're helping people, the way you're working with others, whether they're investors or sellers, and the way that you're working with your own family, your own community, your own charities. I think it speaks volumes about you. Absolutely tremendous. So, Brandon, uh, Rickman, thank you very much indeed for being on this week in Property.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Thanks for having me, Richard. I enjoyed catching up with you and look forward to talking again soon.