Breathing New Life Into Old Walls: Wayne Douglas (City & Country)

Speaker A: Hello and, uh, welcome to this Week in Property. I'm, um, your host, Richard Swan, and in today's show we have Mr. Wayne Douglas, the managing director of City and Country. Some posh house builders, I'm going to say before he does. Well, he's his posh base down in Cambridge. I'm getting it all in just now. And it's only because, dear listeners and viewers, he's upset me by saying that he has never visited the city of Glasgow. It's terrible. I mean, how can you even come on the show, Wayne? It's terrible.

Speaker B: Well, the great thing, Richard, is that you invited me to be your personal guest, um, this afternoon. So luckily we're close to the airport, so I'll jump on a plane and I'll see you about two o', clock, probably.

Speaker A: Good man. I'll hold you to that. No, tremendous. Listen, we are going to chat house building, we're going to chat developments, we're going to chat what's going on in the economy, your thoughts on it all, helping the small house builders, which I've got to say I've got a big bias for in this conversation and just understand your opinions, your experiences and where you see City and Country going. But before that, who's Wayne? Who's Wayne Douglas? You know, I know that within City and Country you've kind of went through a path of careers with accountancy and finance and stuff like that, but before that, you know, what's the story? What's your career that's brought you through this world to where you are just now?

Speaker B: Well, my, my story's, um, a long one, Richard, but I'll keep it short. Um, it's, it's, I, I, I always say it's quite romantic. So, um, my, my dad was a carpenter. Um, and um, he, I remember going to site with him sometimes and, you know, watching what he does, um, as a, as a young boy. Um, and he, but he always said to me, look, Wayne, um, when you get a job and choose a career, use your brain, not your hands. Um, and he said, um, um, he probably, he probably said that because he'd seen some of my joinery. Um, um, but, but the, but the words kind of stuck, stuck with me. And um, you know, I always kind of had like an aptitude for numbers, which I know can be quite boring or certainly seen as boring. So I kind of went into the, um, realms of accountancy, but not sort of like practice audit accountancy, actually working in the sort of commercial areas of businesses where you kind of analyze numbers. To try and drive performance. And um, I did some training, um, a bioscience company in Cambridge. Then I went to a U.S. owned, um, Global multinational which was a huge company, really narrow role because there were so many people that worked there and everyone just did this tiny little piece, um, that fit in, that fit it into a really big puzzle. And then when I qualified I thought well, I kind of want to change. Um, and I came across city and country. I was working in Cambridge, living in Cambridge, um, and obviously they're in Essex so it was kind of a reasonably long drive for me at the time. Um, but I met, I met with a chap called Andy Sergeant who's one of the sort of founding family members. Um, obviously he's still here today because we're family owned. Um, I met with Helen Pollentine who's. And his executive assistant. Um, she's still here today, 17 years later. And I met with Alice Paschel who um, um, was going on maternity leave and I was going to be her cover. Um, um, whilst she went. And I was going to cover her role. She's still here today, um, as our head of it. So um, all three of them, um, I met, um, I think they felt sorry for me more than anything when they took me on, um, and thought this poor boy just needs a home. Um, which they gave me. And um, actually since then um, it really has kind of felt like home because um, the business has changed a lot. It's grown up a lot. When I joined There were 40 people. We're turning over about 10 million. We're now turning over sort of 90, 95 million of resi sales with construction on top of that. Um, and we've got 165, 170 people. So the business has grown and actually it's afforded me the opportunity to grow with it. And lots of people nowadays kind of stick with the role for two or three years and then try and jump ship to progress their career. And I'm really fortunate that I haven't had to do that and I've been able to progress within the business and um, ultimately reach, reach the pinnacle of the role I'm in today. Which is. Which is really good. Yeah. And I'm very proud of privileged.

Speaker A: Yeah, you should be. That's fantastic. What a story. I tell you, this conversation is getting spookier and spookier because we're sharing this, this path of, of house builders. We're chatting just before we started recording about. I'm going out to one of our sites today. The grade listed building You've got a lot of thoughts on that with heritage and stuff. My dad was a carpenter. Let me throw that in. Yeah, spooky. Became a clerk of works as well through the building seats as well, which is cool. He also told me you to use the brain. Everything you were saying. I was getting a shiver up my back. So I went into finance and they went into it and then eventually into the world of property. This is spooky times. If it wasn't for your posh cities of Essex and Cambridge and so on, I think we might be related. Uh, well, it's possible.

Speaker B: It's possible. Yeah. Yeah, good.

Speaker A: So city and country. Yeah, it's not just the house building. It's not. Ah, yeah, we built some houses and stuff or yeah, we're a big massive chain that just cookie cutter. Uh 500 units in one go. You're not like that. Aren't um, you not because there's a deep passion about heritage, about quality, about doing it. Right. Why is that? Why have you guys got that?

Speaker B: So we've got that because um, a number of years ago uh, um we identified that there were lots of um, lots of buildings that um, were coming to the end of their current useful economic life and um, in these heritage buildings and they were typically, typically were owned and occupied by one branch of government or another. So it might have been the local council or it might have been the police or the um, the mod. And they generally were vacating these buildings and going into modern purpose built accommodation which was fit for purpose and more cost effective for them to run and operate. And it kind of left these buildings without a home. And there is, there is a lot of um, pride in the country's history, in our business, um, with the family. Um, and um, there was, there was an awful lot of um, reward um, that we took um, from actually giving these buildings a future and we took them on a planning risk. So we took them on with the useful, with that, with their current um, planning consent. And then we, we always found that actually multiple residential was always the most viable and safest future for those buildings. Because then if you've got 40 people in a building they all pay a service charge and the service charge is used to keep that building in the right condition. Whereas if you've got one person in there or commercial tenants it's far more risky. Whereas when it's someone's home then people are much more prepared to say well I want to keep this building looking really nice and I love it. So therefore I'm prepared to Put my hand in my pocket and pay for it. Um and um, we started to um, I'll use the term Hoover up um some of these buildings. Um and we've got a really good internal planning team which really understands all the requirements, who the stakeholders might be, what the needs and requirements will be so that we get a really good consent um, and try to satisfy everyone involved in terms of all the stakeholders as well as our um, our needs as well. Um, and um, um I remember um, years ago um, we, we'd brought up these projects. We were kind of on a sort of push for growth that the business was on at that time. And I sat in a meeting with Lloyds bank who were doing our funding at the time and they said, they said to us um, what are you guys going to do when you want our buildings to convert? And I remember Tim Sargent, our chairman, um, he, he, he said, he was the CEO at the time and he said well that isn't going to happen anytime soon, right? Because that isn't, that isn't our barrier to growth. There's loads of this stuff. And he was right. Actually there's, even today there are so many of these buildings that need um, a home. And we get, I think because of our reputation we get sent a lot of them to try to try and take on um, and we took these projects on, we got planning, put them into production and actually our barrier to um, really scaling that operation up further beyond what we have was not the opportunities of new buildings, it was actually the skilled specialism that's needed to really um, take those projects forward in a really cost effective and m um efficient process. And that was kind of our barrier to growth which um, we, we kind of took some lessons from that and we said well we, we, we've got, we've got this fantastic projects, we've got these fantastic products. We really have this passion for what we're doing. Um, let's keep doing that, right? Let's keep doing that. It's doing good for the country. It's, it's rewarding our staff, they feel good about it and actually it's um, it, it can make money when you get it right. Um, it can make a profit. And um, but we said we, we do want to grow the business so let's kind of develop our new build um as well and let's, let's behave, let's do some new build apartment schemes. Let's behave more like a house builder but try and take all the special ingredients a city and country have got in terms of heritage place making um feel good architectural details and apply those to the new build um product. The new build product we do as well. And I think we're on our sixth new build housing scheme. Um, we've got some other new build apartment schemes as well and that our design team have taken, you know they, they, they've taken those historical architectural details and applied them to a modern elevation. We've got a pretty decent specification internally and actually when you, they also, they also um, um take uh, um focus an awful lot on the external environment. You know, what space is the residents here going to have? Um, how does it make them feel? An awful lot of attention is put into that. Rather than just how many of these square boxes can we possibly fit on this field as possible? That isn't their default behavior. Um, and we have to balance how much product we can fit onto a site because we're here to make money. We need to make money to continue to survive and thrive. Um, but actually um, we're design led and we want to be sales and customer led. Um, as our key principles. Um, and in doing that actually those kind of six schemes that we've launched, they've been really successful. Um, and the customers seem, most customers obviously all seem to love them and we're proud of them. Anytime, um, I show someone around site they think it's fantastic what we do. Um, which again it just encourages you to kind of think well we're doing something right here. You know, this is great and let's keep going, let's do more of this. Um, and um, it just makes us want to do more of that. And um, so our design team, they are uh, our director gave a um, presentation to the staff a few months ago. We do staff presentations every three months, four months. And even though I know all this, he gave a presentation around all the architectural details we've put onto our sort of standard house types. And even though I'd seen it in rehearsal before he went live with the um, the main event with all the staff and even though I knew all the detail, I was still, I was like this. I was glued, you know, I was glued because it's, it's, it's so fascinating what it is that they do. Um, and then how that translates into what it is that you see and feel when you see the properties.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, totally. No, I completely echo what you're saying. It's funny, my brain's drifting to a particular site that we're doing just now and the same experience where I knew that I knew the numbers men were there and we were chatting beforehand. Let's make sure we've got the developer profit in there. Cool, that's great. When's the supply chain running? Okay, we're good number side but as soon as the designer started talking, as soon as the architect started saying, this is how we're going to tie in the separate listed building here, using the facade and everything else for some beautiful homes. But we're actually going to mirror it into the design elements of these brand new out uh, of the ground apartments as well. And it's all going to tie together and it's going to mesh. I thought that's fantastic. That is absolutely fantastic. Because in my brain I thought, oh, you have to keep that ah, separate. It just has to be different. And that's the way it is. No, with the right touch, with the right attention to detail and with the right designers, the right ethos behind it, you really can blend those things together. And all of the history that you find out about some of these sites are incredible. I've just, actually just had a map delivered this morning for one of the sites I'm going to, we're arranging uh, a uh, topping out ceremony for and it's showing the place back to the early 1500s. And that, that, that just gets me going. It's fantastic. And, but there's going to be brand new families in there. You know, there's going to be modern tales being spun inside the history element. And you're right having, having that together, it does have you on the edge of your seat. It's fantastic. I love it. I love it.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Good.

Speaker A: Now on the SME side, on the small guy side and we're trying to do our bit and help everyone else. I know that you guys really got behind. There was uh, a, there was a campaign at the time with the who was at the pocket pocket loving and they done the get SMEs building again campaign. So is that a big thing for you, do you think? That's one of the keys, the answers to help the country, to get us back on track and to you know, get, you know, on top of the shortage problem.

Speaker B: Yeah, massively. Um, I mean the, the Volume PLC house builders, what they do, they do really well. They're, they, you know, m. My, my, my view as an outsider looking in is that they're highly efficient. They um, can build at scale and there's a role for them to play. Absolutely. There's a role for them to play. But um, with, with a big machine which they are, um, Having. Having something which is, um. Focuses more on sort of passion. Design is more tricky to manage. These are my words. It's more tricky to manage. And actually when. When you. When I drive around, um, More um, SME developments, you can see that there's been more um, attention paid to um, the environment than necessarily than um. This big machine. It's like, it's like. It's like Tesco, right? Tesco, this huge machine. And actually they're really good to go and buy your groceries from. But yeah, and they do, they do their best to give you a good customer experience, but actually they're so big, actually it has to be in per. It has to be reasonably impersonal as a consumer of groceries. And I think that um, the SMEs, A. The SMEs would do something different. I tend to see they tend to be local to the area they're building in and not this head office which is, you know, hundreds of miles away. And therefore if they're local, they tend to um, care more about the local environment, um, just. Just by default, um, because it's their home too. And they tend to um, do a better product, um, and um, have it better, have it better designed and that. And we need, we need to embrace that. And um. The decline of SMEs, if you look at the statistics, is absolutely shocking. How many, um. How many house builders, um, small, Small house builders have ceased to operate. And actually the average age of a house builder now is also quite a shocking statistic. Um, and I, I think it's important that we talk about these things, um, nationally and the government talks about these things because, um, house building is, um. It's a career I've fallen into, but it's a, It's a brilliant career and everybody I know that works in this industry, they love it, right? They, they genuinely. They have. We all have our good days, right? We have a bad day of course, but like everyone, but they love it. And actually um, we need to talk about it in a positive way because we need to, we need to encourage people to want to get into it. That's the first step for me. And then we need to look at the environment that. That exists so that they can get into it because there's an enormous amount of barriers to entry. If you're a new house builder, um, and a new developer, you, um, the barriers are huge and there are many. And I think that, um, we should be talking about that nationally, the government should be talking about that so that it encourages People and we can focus on, well, what are some of the solutions to these barriers and how do we remove them so that we can recover? Um, we can encourage more people and have more houses to live.

Speaker A: Yeah, totally, totally agree with you.

Speaker B: Ah.

Speaker A: And I get the same feeling when I drive around those developments as well. I know exactly what you're talking about. And you're right. There's a place. There's a place. Place for the big and there's a place for the small. And we can all help. We can all help push things on, help the economy, help the country and help people get homes. Yeah, totally. There's often a, uh, sweary word used in our industry. It begins with a P and ends in Lanning. The wonderful world of planning. Where is your thoughts these days? You know, how do you kind of view the landscape? We've had a change of government and in fact, I know on your own website you did a small article about this and your hopes and dreams and stuff. What's your thoughts? Where are we and what do we need to do?

Speaker B: I think we're 30% through the journey, finger in the air. That's my finger in the air, Stab. I think that the changes the government have made to the nppf, um, I think that, um, we're starting to see some early signs of traction with that, um, which is positive. Um, I. But. But what, what, um, what our industry really needs, and particularly what SMEs really need, is certainty. Even if certainties are, uh, no. Right? Even if it's a no, you can't have planning, but it's, it's a certainty on what the outcome is going to be and when are you going to get that outcome? Because, um, the biggest issue, I think, with planning, which everybody knows about, is that not only does it take so long, actually there's so many hoops to jump through. And then it's kind of like a. You're always chasing, chasing the next hoop to try and get over the line. Um, but one of the massive challenges for SMEs is just having that certainty on timing so that you can then change the direction of your business. So I know I'm going to get this new site consented or I'm not. And if I'm going to get it consented, great. I can mobilize my whole supply chain to start building and I can, I can, I can arrange the funding and I can start to think about who my customers are going to be. And actually, if I'm not going to get that decision, okay, well, then where else am I going to get that pipeline of product from so I can keep going? Because if I haven't got that pipeline of product, I'm out of business, right? I can't, if I can't build, I'm out, I'm out of business. And, and so I think, I think that there's been some good done. Um, definitely. Um, but I think that um, if there's more focus on timing, um, of decision making, that will definitely help. It will help all house building, but it will certainly help the SME sector who needs it the most.

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. And do you see that across not only new builds and out of the ground and trying to change brown belts, green belts, etc. But even in just simple conversions, try to help the high street try to recover, you know, brownfield sites. Do you see it across all of those different areas?

Speaker B: Yeah, we, we see it across all areas. And um, the, the, the, the benefit of a heritage building is that, um, that because there's a building already there and it tends to be a building of historical importance that we get involved in, there is already, um, that there, there often is a desire for all the local stakeholders or all the stakeholders involved in that decision making to want to see something happen. That is always something that helps the planning. Um, but nevertheless there are still, um, these hoops that we have to jump through and conditions that we have to satisfy and lots of those. Um, of course for good reason. Um, and that just takes time. So even though there's more intent with my experience is there's more intent with local authorities who want to see a, ah, heritage building saved than there is with a, with a brownfield or greenfield site where there's going to be new houses, you know, um, but nevertheless there's, there's, there's very similar, um, it's a similar planning game, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah, totally. I know people are listening and shaking their heads right now. Everything you're saying. You mentioned another sweary word in our industry funding. Yes. Which can be a problem. And we're, we're chasing those drawdowns and we're trying to get the local managing surveyor to check reports and so on and so forth. How do you see that at the moment, just in general and the kind of whole country. And how should that be improved?

Speaker B: Um, well, I mean, I don't think many people, I don't see many people talk about this. Um, and I've started to speak about it in the last 12 months. Um, but obviously everyone's aware that the base rate went up Quite a lot, very quickly. Um, and generally it's widely communicated in the public domain that that had a massive impact on people's affordability to borrow to buy property. Right. So mortgages, existing mortgages went up and actually if you had any aspiration to buy your own, buy a new house or to um, upsize, then you were curtailed by the enormous, um, hike in borrowing costs that's publicly known. And that has massively impacted the house building industry because sales, um, sales, um, volumes, um, are. And the transaction levels aren't as healthy as they could and should be. And um, that is another um, challenge that house builders have to manage. Well, you know, if I build this house, who's my buyer? Um, and how. And how much can they afford to pay for it? And it's not that. Isn't house builders being greedy, saying can they afford to pay for it? It costs an awful lot of money and you have to invest an awful lot of time to build a house. So actually there needs to be, there needs to be a return on that money so that you can then make a profit and invest in the next scheme. Um, I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that.

Speaker A: Um, no.

Speaker B: And um, but the other thing that happened that isn't talked about when the base rate went up massively is that the cost of finance for SME house builders, it pretty much doubled overnight. So um, you know, you, if, if you. Let's just say you were spending a million pounds financing a scheme, um, and all of a sudden overnight to finance the same scheme or the, or an equivalent scheme next door to it, it's £2 million. Right. And um, the cost base of that project massively goes up. That happens simultaneously with regulation, um, changes with Part L, which adds costs to buildings. It happened with the mortgages that I talked about, which again gives more challenges around the timing of sales and the value of sales that can be, um, had to exit. It was coupled with the cost of living crisis, which put pressure on um, um, labor costs because cost of living crisis, everyone's trying to get a pay rise, quite rightly so, um, and we had material price rises as well. So there was kind of like a perfect storm where actually developers, costs were just kind of going up and up and up and up and up. And actually the revenue was kind of like we just, we're just trying to keep the revenue the same and actually, because. Because we were having to absorb all this cost and the effect that that's had, that I've seen is that, you know Our land team, they put forward um, they put forward uh, new deals. So you know, should we buy this piece of land or should we buy this piece of land? And you know, you look at it and you just think like well you know, I can't, I can't. The risk, the risk is not worth it. Right? Yeah, the, the risk is not worth it because there's, as I say, there's an enormous amount of time and money and risk involved in house building and actually there needs to be the reward at the end of it otherwise why bother, right? Why bother doing it? And um, and quite often now the effect of this is that lots of these sites just don't stack up and that is having um, a big impact for us on our ability to do more. That's the problem. Right, so you've asked what the solution is. Well, the solution for me is that um, on an appraisal so um, whenever we look to buy a site or develop a site, we've got um, there's four big, big elements for me. So the first which impacts that appraisal. So there's, there's the project appraisal has revenue and then it's got lots of costs and then at the bottom, revenue less your costs equals your profit. And there's four big elements that contribute to whether, whether something is successful or whether it's even viable. And the first is, is revenue. So certainty of revenue and the value of that revenue. So we can talk about what the solutions might be for that. So you know is, is the, is the sales market, is there enough depth in there to meet m. What the government wants house builders to build and for um, the public to be able to buy? Probably not at the moment. Probably not at the moment. So lots of people have talked about what the solutions for that might be. Should we have a first time buyer scheme to replace help to Buy? I think that's definitely something that's worth investigating. And you know, from what I've seen the government hasn't lost money on Help to Buy. I think they've made money. So you know, again that, that doesn't need to be a dirty word or a conversation that shouldn't be had. The other. And I think that is being talked about which is great. But what isn't being talked about um, quite so much is well then what, right, so you know, let's say we, we, we create, create a product that the government helps to subsidize which gives loads of first time buyers the opportunity to buy their first home. Fantastic thing to do. For the country. Fantastic thing to do for first time buyers. And we have all these um, properties, um, which generally might be new build properties to meet that demand for first time buyers. But what about people that want to upsize? Right. What about people that want to downsize? Not much has been talked about that and that's a really important part of the market as well. And actually a, ah, healthy housing market needs all those activities not to be booming, right? Not to be booming, but actually to have a healthy level of transaction volume. So you know, I do think there's a conversation that needs to be had around well, what are the barriers to um, people downsizing and what are the barriers to people upsizing. And the two biggest barriers are uh, cost, um, of finance and taxation. So you know, stamp duty is a massive barrier if you're, if you're, if you're not buying. I mean it's a barrier full stop. But if you're not buying your first, your first time, it's a barrier. And actually if we want to increase transaction volumes which will grease the wheels of the housing market and enable us to deliver what we're trying to deliver, uh, then stamp duty should be um, reviewed and changed. And um, also um, um, the transaction volumes will benefit from a product which is focused on not just first time buyers and the cost of mortgage, but actually more than that. You know, what about, what about someone that wants to start a family? You know, so you might have a first time buyer, a couple in their first house, they might want to start a family and want to upsize. Well, what, what helps available to help them, Those guys, you know, and I think something, something should also be considered for that as well. And if we get that right, um, don't create a boom. Right. We don't want boom and bus cycle. Don't create a boom. We want to create a healthy level of transactions with the right support available.

Speaker A: Yes, totally. That makes so much sense. And uh, yeah, I love the fact we're talking about it because we do, we need to dive into these things and it's too easy just to grab one headline. Yeah, yeah, let's hope to buy first time buyers. Let's go. No, no, wait a minute, step back. What is the full picture? Where can we help? In all areas. And I love the fact of how you've balanced that. You're not looking for chaos, you're not looking for boom and bust. No, just calm down. Just, let's just keep things ticking over. Let's, let's be sensible, you know, let's Have a good market, a good economy. I love that. Good man. Now for folks who are listening in, whenever it's safe to do so, go into the Show Notes and you'll see all the links there to get to City country website. You'll see some of their developments and stuff. In fact, something I need to check with you here Wayne, in your future developments. Right. There's three of them in the Gloucester, Dorchester and Somerset area. They're all jails. What's going on, Wayne? Is there some black sheep in the family that's getting you these leads? Why is there's a sudden focus in these big jails?

Speaker B: So the, the jet. The jails are um. They were something the business bought um, a few years ago. Um, actually Portsmouth has been. We bought Portsmouth as well as those three.

Speaker A: Fantastic.

Speaker B: That's all been delivered. Um, now. Um, and the. The jail in Somerset that's. That's used as a. And recently that was sold um, to a prison, um, like day center so people can kind of visit which. Which again is a good experience. So that, that's been able to um, have a solution. We still own some of the, some of the um, land and buildings there. Um, Dorchester. Dorchester is a fantastic scheme. Um, and so is Gloucester. But it's just when I was talking earlier about, you know, the challenges of actually scaling up on um, the conversion side of things, um, though those are projects that we've had to, um. Because of the constraints around development, those are the projects that we've had to just pause for now. Um.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And um, try and get to them when we've got. When it's the right time, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. When it's sensible.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Ah, totally. Absolutely. Look at. We're just chatting away a bit. Oh this Dorchester here, there and everywhere. When you look back in all your projects, when you. When you think of all the things that City and Country have done, what one stuck out for you, you know, what's one that you would grab if I said to you it uh, brought you the most joy, the most satisfaction?

Speaker B: So that's a great question. So my, My favorite project has always been the galleries in Brentwood. Um.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And I think the business bought that in 2006. I joined in 08. 2008. I think that it bought it in 2006. It may have been 2004. Um, and that was a, um. Victorian. Victorian, uh, Asylum. And um, it was on. On Warley Hill, um, in Brentwood. And that was um, at the time that was the first time we'd done a conversion Project of in excess of 200 units.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And um, it was kind of, we'd kind of gone 20 units, 40 units, 50 units, 80 units, you know, just over 100 units. And this was the first one that kind of went over the 200 mark. And there was a mix of. I think there was 62 new build apartments on there for memory in the grounds. Um, and the balance was conversion. But this, this building, it was um, it was ropey in places. Right. And actually because of it, because of its history, there were parts of it that were a bit, a bit sort of dark. Um. Right. And then, and then when you looked at the before and after with, as to what our design team had done, it was, it was totally chalk and cheese. And um, we ended up creating a scheme which, which was. It just looked amazing. Um, it sold really well. Um, because it was in Brentwood, people could commute to London and um, and, and it was near the station, so that that kind of helped sales, um, and our customers. And um, um, it was a project which I kind of watched from cradle to grave at an early stage in my City and Country career. I just took an awful lot of pride from it, um, because of what it was doing for the business and actually what we were delivering at the time, I think, um, as well as how it looked. Um, that's class.

Speaker A: That's class. It's great. Those projects, it's not just the numbers, it's not just a bullet point list. It's a real experience and something you carry with you, something you'll remember for a long, long time. That's fantastic. Now, you're a busy man. I know you're down there in posh Essex doing loads and loads of stuff. So last question, the future. You know, city and country looking ahead. You plan a lot, obviously, because you have to plan. How do you see the future going? And is there any particular projects or areas you would actually like? A dream list, a wish list? I wish we could do this or really fancy us going here. What's your thoughts for the future?

Speaker B: Well, our thoughts, I mean this, this might be, um, this might be a tad of boring, Richard, but our, uh, uh, our thoughts. My thoughts are that we kind of want to do a bit more of the same, so.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: But just do more of it. Yeah. And um, we, you know, um, I see that actually how, how people react to our schemes and when they go and see them. And I think, well, at a time when the country needs houses, um, and homes, well, who better to deliver them than someone that's actually doing, um, creating something that's really special rather than just being bricks and mortar. So, you know, our future is that we absolutely want to keep, Keep, um, our finger on the pulse of heritage conversion. We want to keep doing that stuff. Um, but the future really for us, um, in addition to that is, um, kind of expanding our new build, um, house building business. Um, and we've been positioning ourselves over the last few years and particularly the last couple of years to really get ourselves ready to do that. Um, and, um, in terms of the areas, um, we've got an existing, um, supply chain set up in Bristol and Bath area. Um, we're in Sussex, we're in South London, in Tooting, and we're obviously in Essex. So kind of operating around those areas is kind of key for us. Um, rather than sort of having to

Speaker A: venture somewhere brand new, you know, tremendous stuff. Well, we are certainly wishing you all the best, my man. We are rooting for you. I think it's tremendous what you, the team, the whole company is doing and the projects, they just look fantastic, they really do. And encourage everyone listening, please go into the site, go into the stuff they've already taken care of, look at the future plans. It's absolutely amazing. And maybe, maybe you've got sites, you know, maybe you've got areas that you want to get in touch with them about and do some business with. Who knows? Uh, but for now, Mr. Wayne Douglas, a future visitor to Glasgow, I'm going to hold him to that. From the posh place of Essex, thanks very much for being in the show today.