Besties: Why I Ran a Men’s Group at a Chinese American Fraternity Reunion | #150

Speaker A: Within three days, basically, we got super close because we got to see kind of like what everyone's suffering through, because at the end of the day, everyone is going through something, right? And we just never get to see it. And so we're just holding back and we're just alone because we don't actually get to see what other people are going through. But then once you're able to kind of share what you're going through and everyone else, it will share it, then you're super connected because you understand them as real human beings. Welcome to the Wild show with your hosts, Will Chang, Li Chang and Andrew hs. This is Will Chang and I have Andrew Hsu with me today.

Speaker B: Hey, how's it going, Will?

Speaker A: Just for some background, Andrew and I are in this fraternity called ff. It's a Chinese American fraternity. Andrew's in the New York Lodge. I am the chairman of the Los Angeles Lodge. And over this past weekend, Los Angeles just hosted a reunion which hosted about 450 people from all over the world. While this is from a bunch of US cities, a bunch of Asia cities, and everyone came. We had maybe like three or four days of activities. Andrew, you came to la. Lee Chang, our other co host, came down to LA and you guys got to experience some of our events. I know you played golf. Yeah. So let's start first with just like, what your experience was like at the reunion in la.

Speaker B: For me, it was really different because for the first time I thought one kid. And so actually it wasn't like any of the reunions I've been to in the past. So it was really chasing her around a lot, having a lot more family activities. But I had a great time just getting to catch up with people. And it was really cool, kind of forming bonds with some, like, random new brothers and sisters and just seeing how quickly, like, people would look out for each other. And people are always looking out for Shaw to take care of Emmy. So for me it was just the warmth of being around so many great people and also meeting new people. One thing I did notice, or I, uh, was curious about to get your take on also is I felt like in la, so many people had other friends and family they also needed to see or take care of. And so I actually thought people were more in and out in the LA reunion events than in my experience in the past. That was like, one thing I noticed. Or it also could have just been because LA is so spread out that it wasn't easy to get everyone together all the time, versus I felt like the Last reunion given just like location, everyone was in one area. Most things were walkable and so people kind of crisscrossed a lot more. But yeah, overall I had such a great time and it was, it's fantastic to see, uh, so many people. And then it just made me feel very grateful that we have so many amazing connections and we're all kind of overlapped with each other. One of my favorite things was actually getting to talk to bro, Stephen King and his wife about Jamie and him crossing. And so it was just amazing that now we're kind of like slightly connected in that way because I help Jamie kind of get through. So, man, it was, it was really cool. It was great to meet everybody. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I didn't really get a chance to hang out with you or Lee as much because I felt like most uh, of the reunion I had to just carry. It felt like holding 450 people for four days and it was really tiring

Speaker B: to like, I bet it was like very stressful.

Speaker A: Yeah, it was stressful. Just one night because there's one night where things were going wrong and we had to save it. We ordered like 200 Shake Shack burgers. We did a bunch of things to save that night and turned out okay. But most of the week was just really just making sure that everyone had a good time. I didn't get as much of a chance to really spend that much time connecting, but I did do those things when I was running. Kind of like the things that I wanted to run. One of the privileges of having the reunion here in LA and being chairman was actually I was able to kind of inject a little bit of my own agenda into ff. And one of the things that I'm trying to, I feel like, at least for myself, that I need and for others. We talked about this too, is that I feel like we all join FF to find community and connection and oftentimes you become leaders. And a lot of what we feel is guilt and obligation and like the connection piece is almost like service level. And so one of the things that I've been thinking about and over the last couple years and we've been talking about a lot, is like, how do we actually go deeper and how do we actually build the connections in our personal lives also, like, how do we show our friends and how do we show the people around us? How do we do this as well? So prior to the reunion we had Gene, one of our podcast guests, come earlier and we did like a three day wellness retreat. Gene led it. We actually did it at the same place that you and I held our retreat before. And I use the same location Lee Chang came and joined. And so yeah, that was a three day retreat mostly around breath work and yoga, but also a lot of like deep inner work stuff too. And we can talk a little bit about that. And then Rich Shu, also one of our podcast guests who is the chairman of uh, the entire ff, he sits above us. He actually created these three hour leadership sessions and on Sunday he asked me to lead a one on connection. So he knew that you went to Hoffman and I went to Hoffman and, and he wanted us to bring some of that energy into ff. He listened to our recent podcast episodes around the retreat and around Hoffman and he's very interested in facilitating that into ff. And so he gave me the opportunity to really share that. And we had a bunch of leaders from all over different lodges come and join and I showed them the experience of how do we get, we get deeper and then gave them the tools to actually propagate that out to their, their own lodges. So happy to talk to both.

Speaker B: Amazing. Yeah. Um, I'm curious, what tools did you share? Yeah, unfortunately I couldn't make it because I was taking care of the kid, which is also fun. But yeah, I'm so curious, what did you share and what are you thinking to bring to LA or test?

Speaker A: Yeah, so the Sunday one, the three hour Peace and connection, like the conversation or what people join for is to basically people are looking for a way to get deeper. Right. From a connection standpoint. And I thought the best way of doing that and teaching that is actually having people experience it. So I just ran a men's group session and these are the ones I've been doing on a monthly basis. You experience that on our retreat and really what it is is you have a prompt. Mine is women's learning challenges. And you go around and basically talk about your wins. Learning challenges for the month. The most important piece of this is actually as the leader you hold, you open the container by creating a safe space and giving the other people permission to share by really sharing your authentic, vulnerable self.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And once you're able to do that and let people feel that it's safe to share and everyone else starts sharing too. And so that's what we did for two or three hours. We went around basically asking everyone why did they come? I had Gene lead a Wim HOF breathwork exercise and then we split up in two groups, sat down on the floor and then I had Gene lead a group and I had I led a group and basically we just shared, you know, what was going on in our lives. And then everyone all shared too. And by the end of it, like, everyone felt super connected because these are things that we don't really get a chance to talk about. And then after everyone experienced that, then I'm like, okay, like, that's how it feels and here's how we did it. And then so now people want to bring that back to, you know, their different lodges. So I think San Francisco wants to run, uh, a men's group. I think Singapore wants to do it too. So I think everyone was pretty excited about the opportunity or the, like, the possibility of actually this kind of spreading.

Speaker B: It's funny because I always think it's going to be this like, huge toolset of things, you know, and it's as simple as being grounded, doing the breath work and then, um, just, uh, being around somebody who's willing to share. Right. It's just so fascinating. And then after you shared it, did you give people like specific. Did you just say, hey, you should try this, you know, when you go back, or did you have a different. Ask for them? Did you get any questions where, you know, somebody was asking how to apply it, like, what kind of response or, uh, tools did you give?

Speaker A: I first started saying like, what I said before is that I feel like we all join this organization to find connection, community, and oftentimes we don't find it. Right. And so how do we create it for ourselves and how do we create for the others around them? The first piece of it that's really important because I think people find connection community in other ways through ff, whether it's drinking or making jokes or whatever it is. But then there's actually a yearning for a deeper connection that we all almost don't have the ability to access. Right. And so how do we actually access that? I think that's like the first thesis. The second piece of it is like, yeah, everyone went around basically was like, uh, yeah, there are times when, you know, someone's going through something and we don't actually know how to help him or we actually don't know how to have the conversations. Right. And so how do you actually do that? So we started out with that and then the breath work piece is just to. So that like.

Speaker B: Wait, wait, wait. But so what was your answer?

Speaker A: It's this. It's like, like basically if you are willing to set the example of sharing and being open, right, you give the other people permission to. And as, uh, someone that wants to facilitate these types of connections, you have to be the one that's willing to set the example and be the first one to be vulnerable and sharing what's actually going on.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: And once you do that, then it opens up the conversation so funny.

Speaker B: Right? Like you can see me still grasping with, trying to let that answer settle because it's still so simple to me that I'm like, wait, wait, wait, I don't get it. Okay, so then my follow up is how do you prime yourself to be more open? And do you do that just in the group settings or do you also prime yourself to be more open on a daily basis of like, sharing those vulnerabilities? I'm curious.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, so one of our guests, Darren, who had a podcast episode, I feel like the reason why I started looking into this stuff and I started getting more into this stuff. Every time he comes in the room, he's always like sharing something that's like deeply vulnerable about what's going on. But in order for him to share it, he has to have processed it already or he's has, has to have like, know that that's what's going on inside of him. Because oftentimes we have a lot of stuff going on, but we don't even really first aren't really aware of it, and then two, we don't have the words to actually explain it. Right. But every time he walks in the room, he changes the conversation because he says something deeply vulnerable that's going on with, um, them that, uh, I don't really know if I was just in the moment be able to share. So I realized what he was doing was like, he's actually like understanding what's going on inside of him. And then when the time is right, he's able to share those things. And so in preparation to holding this space for these men, the day before, I was just like checking in with what's going on inside of me, what are my wins, learning challenges. And as going through that, I was like, I started tearing up because, like, okay, these are like the real stuff that actually is going on and like, this is the stuff that I need to share. So when I was in that room, I was able to share everything that was going on, all the good, all the wins, learning challenges. But I don't think I would have been able to share all that stuff if I didn't really inventory of that and at least know that that was what's the most alive for me. And so I do think you have to have the ability or Spend the time to actually create an inventory of what's going on inside of you and then being able to at least put it into words so that when the moment does come, you can share what's going on.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's actually my takeaway. I've seen that, uh, the days that I'm out the year and, you know, before we hopped on this, I told you about, like, processing the. I guess I have, like, an internal self that at least two people. One who wants to go very fast and one who's stressed about almost all decisions that I make. But I processed it recently. But I'm, um, more hearing you talk about it. I just put down that, uh, a prompt for myself, uh, that I want to start doing daily, I hope, which is writing down what I'm excited about, what I'm open about based on this combo and kind of wins, learning and challenges. Because I think it'll prepare me more to be more like Darren. Right. And connect more and be able to help people more. That's, like, very inspiring. That was my takeaway. Would you change any. Anything in that template or what's your version of this?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, so I just wanted to finish out, like, the men's group part. And so you go around facilitating each person's share as, uh, a facilitator. Yeah. So just some rules. You set the rules. Basically, like, you don't share anybody's stories. Nobody shares anybody's stories. Nobody gives advice unless, uh, asked to. You are only sharing your experiences. So basically, people. People just share. And then you ask clarifying questions if you're interested. And then as a facilitator, you're making sure everyone gets heard. Right. And so if people are taking too much space, you move the conversation on. If people are not taking up enough space, you give them more time and space to express themselves. And then at the end of it, there's actually people that have a lot of stuff that's alive. Right. And wait, the goal actually is then to help each other. And so everybody is each other's medicine. Like, you're personally not the person that's in charge of helping somebody. You're just allowing them to express. Right. Expression is healing. And then other people might have gone through similar experiences before, and they share. They can share their own experiences with them. And so then you put people in hot speeds, heat seats, and you have people volunteer to. Whether they want to work through something. And so there's like, you know, one or two or three people they spend 20, 30 minutes on, and they have Something they want to talk through. So you let them talk through it and then other people will share their own experiences of how they might have gone through that. Yeah. So then that's kind of how you run a men's group. And then you can kind of do it on a monthly basis because, like, there's new stuff that comes up every month and that's kind of basically how you run the men's group. And that's kind of what I taught everyone. So personally. Going back to like, how I think about it and the awareness piece for myself, what I realized too is that it's kind of like cleaning your room in that even though you are aware of what's going on, what I end up doing is like, if I'm not checking in often, I'm starting to use old information that I shared before and it gets stale and it's not alive and it's not authentic.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And so it's like I have to like, make sure that if I'm sharing, especially in these situations where I have to hold space for people or give to people, like, I have to make sure it's the most alive thing for me because people can see whether or not it's something that's real or it's something that just like, I'm so used to saying that has no like actual like thing there anymore. Right. And so it's like making sure that all your stuff is most alive for you at the moment too. Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, that's very helpful. Kind of color and it, uh. I can see why. Also by facilitating men's groups, it really. You have a forcing function to kind of stay on top of your own stuff. Right. And keep your own room clean. Are you in multiple men's groups or are you planning to just run one once a month?

Speaker A: I haven't really run them for a while since I became chairman of ff. Right now I've only been doing them during the retreats because that's the way of connecting people so quickly on the first night. I might start running men's groups again in the future, but not right now because I feel like it's too much right now. Yeah.

Speaker B: Do you find yourself wanting to have the same types of conversations you have in men's group with just regular people in your daily life?

Speaker A: I do it with one on ones.

Speaker B: Just with friends.

Speaker A: You mean with friends? Yeah. So when I have one on one conversations, I'm doing that. Someone was telling me, like, oh, I wish I had these conversations like in my personal lives. And I was just Saying that you can, you just have to do it.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: Uh, you just have to have these conversations. Yeah.

Speaker B: So it's funny you bring it up because Rich actually, after he listened to the episode, he brought up to me, like, how come you can't talk to me like you talk to Hoffman people? And I thought it was a really interesting question and now that we've kind of broken out, how to do, I don't know, like, clean your room and then be ready to have that conversation one on one. I guess the answer now is you can. And I don't know why, but there's some sort of mental block that I had. But lately. Yeah. So I appreciate that. Like, I think I'm ready to go now and I think I'm excited to like clean my room and bring that openness. Also, though, lately I found I've been embodying that Hoffman feeling. I've been able to do it where I'm more open with the world and it's just this feeling. I don't know what else to say. And I think this is kind of the next piece of it because I wasn't having the Hoffman conversations though, if that makes sense. I could get myself there, but I wasn't yet in the group vibe, if that makes sense. And I think this has been the unlock for like how to do both now. This has been kind of very uh, inspiring. I'm excited to go try it. And then as you and I have been talking about it, like somehow the world has universe has brought me more and more new connections again, which I think for a while given I guess like kid and new lifestyle and remote work, I think somehow it's been like very or more lonely and I haven't like met as many people and one of the superpowers of like living in New York is all the amazing people you get to meet. So it definitely feels like I'm m on the cusp of something and you've kind of unlocked the next piece, which is like very exciting.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean one of the new connections I made actually was Gene. So like it was really awesome meeting Gene and yeah, it was so cool. Especially because he's from Hong Kong and he's from the Hong Kong Lodge and just giving me context about Hong Kong and then just seeing his journey and then seeing what he did and then just watching him run this three day retreat and like really understanding each person and like calibrating based on each person. And then he gave me like a window to do my own stuff too, which is really cool. Like, he was like, hey, Will, like, what did you do on your retreat? And I was telling him, like, I do this. I did this. Like, do you want to try that out here? And he basically gave me some time where I actually went through the stuff that. The awareness piece we talked about for my old retreat, and we did that, and it worked really well, and people really liked it. And. Yeah, so that was really cool. And then after three days, so Jeremy was there. Right. So I've only met Jeremy through the podcast. And Jeremy Singh from, um, Singapore. Yeah. And then Lee Chang was there for San Francisco. Jim from New York was there. Young Jim Philip Sin from Hong Kong, who. I've never actually even knew who he was until that trip. And then Tyson Steven Shu came for a bit. And then after three days, I felt like I knew all of them for, like, 10 years. It was pretty insane.

Speaker B: That's amazing. Wait, so what was Gene's process? You know, how did he calibrate and get to know people? What was. Yeah, what's the framework? What did he do?

Speaker A: Well, so first, there's an intake form. So basically he kind of knew what people were thinking about and why they're there. And then second, he had these different modalities. One was yoga, one was breath work. But he would also ask you questions like, what makes you happy? Or are you happy? Or what was your favorite exercise? And then based on those questions, he could figure out where personality is. When he asked what your favorite yoga position. To me, I'm like, I like lying down after it's done and just. Just, like, relaxing. Whereas somebody else, like, really likes the thing that they can't do the most. Right. And so based on that, it's like, oh, like, what it. What are our personalities? You can. You can tell by those questions that.

Speaker B: Would he call that out? Or did you.

Speaker A: Yeah, he would just basically then tell you, like, hey, like, this is what I'm seeing. Yeah, fascinating. There's this one exercise called Consolation that happened, we did at the very end, and it was, like, really crazy. Basically, you're telling somebody that you never got to say something to. So it could be, like, an ex or your mom or whoever, Right. And basically there's a person that you ask to sit in their place, and then you ask somebody else to stand behind you and, like, support you with their hands on your shoulders, and then you're telling them the thing that you never got to say to them. The other person then sits there, listens to it, and then responds to you, and it's freaking powerful. I didn't know how powerful it would be, but it was pretty powerful. And then watching every else kind of go through it too, and you kind of see where everyone's, uh, at and what's causing them pain. It was crazy. Within three days, basically, we got super close because we got to see kind of like what everyone's suffering through. Because at the end of the day, everyone is going through something, right? And we just never get to see it. And so we're just holding back and we're just alone because we don't actually get to see what other people are going through. But then once you're able to kind of share what you're going through and everyone wants to share it, then you're super connected because you understand them as real human beings, right? Because, like, I think before that, everyone isn't really a human being. Everyone is just like somebody that you have to kind of like, either impress or somebody that you have to, like, whatever. And you're holding this, like, version of yourself that is like, you think is different from everybody else. But once you kind of reveal that version of yourself, then everyone else has that version of self and everyone's super connected because we're all humans now. We're all kind of going through the same thing, right? And so it was pretty powerful. I think it was something that everyone really loved. And I think we're going to do it next year, and I think there are going to be a lot more people. A lot of people said they were interested, and I do think that there's this opportunity that FF has actually to bring some of this more into the culture of ff.

Speaker B: It's really meaningful. Would you say then that, uh, what Gene was doing was kind of physical manifestation of men's group with kind of like, observations, since he helps with a lot of people, so, like, putting new words to things.

Speaker A: I think everything is trying to get us to the same place, right? It's just different ways of getting there in, uh, different languages. And it's just like how you. I mean, it's like the breathworks stuff, the yoga stuff, kind of like the more brainy conceptual stuff that we do. It's all like, trying to get us in the same place. I think it's just using different ways of doing it.

Speaker B: That's beautiful. So you said previously you weren't going to do Ben's groups backing up really quick. I'm asking because, I don't know, I'm feeling the connection now, and it makes me immediately want to put more of this in my Day to day life. And you said you, you're not running men's groups so how are you getting this connection right now in your day to day life? I'm trying to think through how I can add it back into mine. That's the reason for my question.

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, I just had a conversation yesterday with a friend and um, it was like an hour conversation. We just shared what was going on in our lives.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So it was almost like a men's group without a men's group. And I think that like you can do this on like one on one conversations in general. So that's like one piece. The reason why I'm not doing them is because like it's as a facilitator. You're basically holding kind of like these five other people or six other people for like three hours at a time every month. Right. There's energy that you put into it so that everyone is like good at the end.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: I feel like I've done that for 450 people two weeks ago or a week ago for, at the reunion and then trying to kind of like after the reunion I'm still the chairman of LA Lodge and there's a bunch of stuff that I have to work on and I'm still holding the entire Lodge right now and trying to like. And so that's really tiring and I don't have the ability to kind of do it elsewhere. Like I still have that and so that's the reason why. Yeah.

Speaker B: Oh, uh, this has been great. I have a different topic. There are other pieces that caught your attention. That or favorite stories from both the pre retreat with Gene or LA reunion that I haven't touched on that stand out to you?

Speaker A: Yeah, one thing that actually happened so Joe Cha, who's also a guest of ours, had like a love hate relationship with FF this year. I kind of tried to bring him back a little bit and had him plan, had him planned a retreat basically at his house for our all over pledges. And it was almost like a retreat where he really, him and Preston basically really wanted to build connection for them.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And it went really well. But he's always had this like, I don't know, like sometimes had like a negative energy towards FF2 because there's like a lot of disappointment, there's like a lot some idealism and disappointment with FF Rim and going through the reunion. I asked him to join, I asked him Joe Cha, I asked Eugene, I asked Preston to join the connection talk because I felt like they were really good at being Vulnerable and sharing. And I wanted that energy in the group. And Joe actually shared what was going on in his life. And through the talk, he discovered that there was a lot of trauma from his mom that actually he's passing on to his child and is causing a rip in relationship. And he brought that awareness through that retreat and basically immediately changed it. When he went back, it was because of that men's group.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: And not only that, but basically all the negative energy that he's had with FF is gone now. And he's like, he has only positive now.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: I mean, I didn't purposely do that, but it's awesome that, you know, him supporting me coming out to the connection thing basically has kind of freed him. Right. I'm just hoping that this happens to everyone. I'm hoping that, like, yeah, like there's so much negative energy and so much ego stuff with ff and I'm just like hoping that everyone just gets freed and everyone just wants to invest time because it can give stuff to the organization because they're getting so much out of it and it's just like positive energy and just energizing instead of all this, like negative ego stuff. Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, wow, that was beautiful. I got goosebumps. Yeah. I mean, it all makes sense. Like, I feel even right now, like a lot more connected, you know, and appreciate you kind of bringing that energy and the knowledge and kind of pushing it forward. So I'm excited to do it day to day, more and more. So. Yeah. Appreciate you, man.

Speaker A: Yeah, thank you. I'm very grateful to have the. I don't know, all pieces just fell together where I ended up being LA Reunion, the LA chair at the reunion where people just gave me these opportunities to put a little bit of my own spin on things as I'm finding things out and learning things, which is kind of cool.

Speaker B: Yeah, it definitely does feel like an odd, lucky, serendipitous things are just falling into place. It even tickles me that you, uh. And I just impromptu, can hop on and do this podcast now because I think it's been. Been doing it for so many years now. Right. It's like this other brain switch that goes on of like, oh, wait, I have to have more articulate thoughts now versus my normal, like, messing around.

Speaker A: Yeah. No, honestly though, anytime I have a conversation with you, like, uh, even if you just telling me what you're working on, if I record it, it'll be a good episode. I feel like every time I talk to you, I'm inspired. Yeah.

Speaker B: Wow. That's Pretty cool. Yeah, I appreciate that.

Speaker A: It's like, I don't know what it is, but you're always working on something. You're always pushing things forward, and it's always very inspiring talking to you. Yeah.

Speaker B: Hey, man, that's really cool because as we were talking about, I only see that stressed out part of my eternal family system. So there's like a many times stressful driver that's pushing things forward that I'm learning to accept. But it's cool to hear what it looks like from the outside. Right. And that there is a positive piece there, if that makes sense.

Speaker A: Man, will, you gotta get together, man. Andrew's moving and I will, you gotta keep moving. That's what it looks like.

Speaker B: I feel very similarly every time we hang out. I'm like, oh, crap. So, yeah, feelings mutual.

Speaker A: Okay, cool. Anything else that you want to talk about?

Speaker B: No, that's the pod.

Speaker A: All right, thanks, everyone. Bye.

Speaker B: See ya. Bye.

Speaker A: Thank you so much for listening until the end. If you've enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review on Spotify or Apple podcasts. It'll help more people like you find us. You can find more about us on Wild show wld sh o w. Please subscribe to our newsletter or DM us on Twitter. We'd love to get to know you.