144 | The secret to navigating marketing complexity

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome again to another episode of the Tech Marketing Podcast. Uh, I'm joined by, actually someone who's not been on our podcast before, but who I've spent probably a decade working with back and forth. Um, so very, very pleased to be joined by, uh, Luis. Um, welcome to the Tech Marketing podcast, Luis.

Speaker A: Thanks so much for having me, John. I appreciate it. I am saying hi from Yuba City, California, north of San Francisco, close to Sacramento, at my wife's grandfather's fishing shrine. You could see. And there's a little gone fishing sign over here. So, apologies for the busy background, but, yes, uh, it's where the world finds me right now. And, uh, it's school holidays, our girls are visiting their cousins, and so we keep. We just crack on.

Speaker B: It's part of the world, in the world we're in now, where we. We have the ability in some of our roles to travel and enjoy the world. So, yeah, enjoy it. Like, talking about roles that are in your career. Like, we met 10 years ago now when you were back at Intuit.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: At least, like, when we were prepping for this. I really hadn't appreciated just how fascinating your career trajectory has been, Luis. Like, take us through that. Like, where did you start your career in tech and where have you ended up now?

Speaker A: That's really nice of you to say, John.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Well, you go back quite a while. I'll take you back just a little bit. Before you and I met, I. I got into tech after spending a lot of time in food marketing. So I learned marketing after business school. Got into a big, uh, fmcg or CPG company, as most people know them, as a food company, um, marketing. Pillsbury Toaster Strudels, Nature Valley Bars, Old El Paso Food. You know, it was wild. But eventually got into Tech. In 2009, I joined Visa and, uh, found that, you know, I was interested in tech culture. Fit with Visa wasn't my cup of tea. So I ended up moving over to Intuit. And so I used to work for the competition of the place where I currently work. And, you know, life is funny how it works. Uh, but, yeah, 2010, I started in the world of cloud accounting. And it's wild to say that that's been over 15 years ago. And so, yes, you and I met while I was part of my, um, leading the QuickBooks Pro Advisor program, which is a big program, you know, focused, uh, on accountants and bookkeepers. And you, uh, together were helping me with uh, some marketing tools for accountants and bookkeepers.

Speaker B: It was great. That was always, I think, Everyone always has like one of those career defining projects in their life. Um, and uh, that was one of those for me. Um, say one we've got a few of us, a few under our belt. Like that was such a fun project to work on.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean we were going through a massive transformation and you know, Both Xero and QuickBooks since then have continued to transform. But yeah, that was a real moment in time where we at QuickBooks were going through a transformation from desktop into online. And that's exactly when we worked together on building this online portal, uh, for our account symbol keepers back then.

Speaker B: John.

Speaker A: And you're right, it's like we've never looked back.

Speaker B: What would you say the common thread has been through all the different firms you worked in? Um, what's been the, what's been the common thread, really?

Speaker A: Yeah, well, I would say that I'm a learner, you know, and it's one of those things you take Gallup's, you know, um, Strength Finder, uh, you know, assessments, um, and you find out that you know, like my number one, um, strength is learner. And so what that means is I really just enjoy learning new things and uh, asking a lot of questions. I'm a very curious person and I've continued to want to learn more and more. And in the world of cloud accounting there's still just a ton of learning within the different segments. And so you know, we'll, we'll definitely get into it. But I've, I've played roles in marketing, product marketing, sales, product management, um, you know, and um, knowing accountants and bookkeepers, small businesses both. And so, you know, I think that the thread has been certainly learning.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean I always say the same thing as well Luis. Like I, in fact I was saying it to a team I was with earlier, which is I'll always stick around until I stop learning. And that hasn't happened yet. In fact, if anything the learning has accelerated. So having that curious mindset I think is, that is, is absolutely vital. Um, like you've worked, you've worked in some of the biggest names in accounting tech, right? Intuit, um, and now Xero. How have those different environments uh, changed and shaped your approach to marketing?

Speaker A: You know, I think that the only name you didn't throw out there, John, but uh, it's a company I worked for as well, uh, was Receipt bank or Dext out of Shoreditch. And um, all these different names in accounting and um, sort of accounting tech, I mean they've shaped my view on marketing in that Certainly, accounts and bookkeepers have been through a transformation. Right. And as they go through a transformation, we in marketing need to stay relevant for them in different ways. And so you just have to continue to evolve. I mean, you and I have discussed a lot about how digital marketing is a whole different thing now than it was even five years ago. And so what I find is, for people like me, even when you stay in the same industry, like, your job evolves. And so, you know, the industry evolves, your customers evolve, and you evolve with it. And so that's actually, I think, a bit of a competitive advantage that tech companies have when they're looking to engage with people like me who like to learn, you know, it's a great place to be because just by even like, standing in the same spot, you will continue to grow. So, um, yeah, I don't know if that answers your question, but I do think that, you know, tech has been changing a lot, which means all of our job descriptions change year after year.

Speaker B: We've never seen so much disruptions. We've seen the last couple of years. Um, not just the stuff that happened in 2020, but in the last two or three years we've also had AI. Do you think our jobs, and this is a bit of a leading question, do you think our jobs have got easier or harder? And if so, why? What's our thinking there?

Speaker A: You know, if you think about the complexity in different vectors, you know, whether it's like, how to target a customer, like how to reach them, et cetera, I don't see a single vector upon which it's gotten easier. Like, everything has gotten, you know, more complex now. You know, I think part of our jobs is to figure out what is noise and what is the real signal. And, you know, and focusing on that. Um, but yeah, it just continues to get more and more complex. And so when what I find, you know, in jobs like mine now that are not focused on one geography, you know, we're looking at 10 geographies at once. Um, you really need to distill, you know, what is most important in the world and a focus on you try to make it as relevant for as many of our regions as possible. And then you go, right, but, but you can't, certainly can't let, um, analysis paralysis take over, because that, that would be very easy to do.

Speaker B: Yeah, I, I couldn't agree more. And I. And it's not just, I mean, for me, it's not just the analysis. It's the kind of feeling that you need to be busy when Actually, there's an element of just saying, I just need absolute clarity. I need to know, to use your phrase there, like, what is the signal that I should be paying attention to? And what is just noise that I can put off to one side?

Speaker A: It's true. There's. There's a lot of noise and more. And more, um, you know, if you just. There are more numbers. There's never. There have never been more numbers.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: We have more dashboards and more tools, like, you know, call it tableau, mixpanel, whatever it might be. We look at a lot of different, um, tools. It's easy to become overwhelmed. So you gotta, you know, it's our job to not be.

Speaker B: You had this great phrase when we were. We were talking before. Actually, Luis, that really stuck with me. Um, you know, you mentioned about being curious, and you use this phrase, put me in coach. Um, like, how is that, you know, looking at some of the different roles you're currently. Executive general manager for global partner marketing. If I've got that job title. Correct.

Speaker A: That's correct. At Xero. Correct.

Speaker B: And before then, you were in charge of payroll, I believe at Xero, like, quite varied roles. You went product management to partner, uh, marketing and channel. Like, you know, we were talking about this, this attitude of being curious and putting me back in coach. What does that. What does that really mean? Like, how is that. How do you apply that to your. Your career?

Speaker A: Sure. Well, I think that the way it came up in our conversation, John, you were just talking to me about maybe asking me what are some of my philosophies for, you know, how to grow a career, et cetera. And I think my simple question was my, uh, simple answer. What, what it was. If your boss brings you an interesting opportunity, you know, it, and chances are, you know it's going to be a challenging one, but it's interesting. And where you think you're going to learn. My answer has always been, put me in coach. Right. If your coach thinks that you can handle it, if your coach thinks that it's important. If your coach thinks that it's hard and difficult, um, I think you should take that opportunity with both hands and just go for it and grab it, you know, what's the worst that can happen? Our. Our CEO AT zero, um, Sukinder Singh Cassidy, she wrote a book, um, about, you know, creating possibility. It's called. And basically her thought is, our careers are a portfolio of risks. And frankly, by not taking tough, um, you know, opportunities, you're sort of choosing not to take risk, which by the way is probably a risky proposition unto itself because, you know, like, careers continue to move forward. If you build a career that has a portfolio of risks, you're going to continue to learn and it's going to, you know, take a nice, nice shape. If you choose not to take risks, then frankly, you're opening yourself up to, uh, you know, getting stuck or not growing your career or, you know, really not, um, growing and not developing, which again. So I go back to Put Me in Coach. That has been absolutely a philosophy I believe in no matter what. And so back to your point, you know, I've been at Xero just over four years. I started in the go to market team, um, and within about eight months they brought me over to the product management side of the house. So I ran the account and bookkeeper division, um, on the product management side, working very closely with engineering, as you can imagine. Um, I had done some product work at QuickBooks. And so they said, hey, cool, you know, product, let's bring it, you know, we need some help in the world of accounts and bookkeepers. Then they brought me over to payroll products as well. And then a year ago I came back to, uh, marketing, which is frankly where I've spent most of my career. So, yeah, just one more time, just to repeat it. But I think it is important, you know, when your coach tells you about a tough opportunity. Put Me in Coach is, is in my opinion a great way to go.

Speaker B: I mean, this stuff I really want to unpick here because I think it's an important point, especially when marketing is going through, every role, is going through so much disruption, um, that, that approach of like, just get involved. Like, have you, have you had any instances where, you know, you've not been, as, you know, you've, you've been put in, you've been put in the team, you're out there in the field, um, and it's not gone as smoothly as you'd expect. Um, you know. Or does it. Is there a, is there a certain nuance to making sure you're getting the right level and you drive the metrics and manage the risk? Um, because it can be risky going into a new role.

Speaker A: Absolutely is. No, it is every time. And John, I mean, I think part of what comes with Put Me in Coach is you have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. Like that is going to happen. And that happens almost every time, you know, almost by definition. Right. If you're coming in to learn something new, um, you are going to go through a bit of a transition period. You're going to have to, at times, through trial and error, figure out what is truly important, what are the key metrics you're going to focus on. And so it's something that I work on a lot on, uh, early in my roles is am I really aligned with my manager on what is most important, what are the key metrics that are really going to go, uh, and focus on, uh. And even my current manager now, Michael Strickman, he's our CMO at Xero, he jokes with me about the fact that once I figure out what is important, man, I stay really, really focused on it. Perhaps even. Even too much so. But I think it's really important to know what's important and then to focus, um, all of your efforts and your team's efforts because again, you know, analysis paralysis can set in. The noise can take you in many different directions. I prefer to stay, you know, focus in one, one direction and just keep the team clear, you know, on that. And then if direction changes, then, you know, pivot accordingly, communicate widely, and then move quickly.

Speaker B: There's so much even. Even there. I'm going to be honest as well. When I first heard put me in coach, I actually saw it as put me in coach, not put me in coach. Um, so there's a slight nuance there because. But I think both work because, uh, you know, talking about curiosity, there's also an element of like, just removing the, um, ego element and just saying I'm here to learn. Um, so actually I read something slightly different to what you were. What you were saying there.

Speaker A: Well, I think that the point that goes along with that m. Maybe this is even a third dimension to it is you. I. This is another one of just my philosophies. But I think resilience is a really important trait. Right. And it's one that I genuinely, absolutely believe. If you've read, um, Mindset, the book by. I believe it's Carol Dweck, um, if you're open to learning again, but you have to be open to a little bit of discomfort here and there's, um. You're. You're gonna grow, you know, when you're put in. In positions like that. And um, sometimes you are gonna bump into some. Some walls here or there, right? And you're gonna, um. But I think if you are resilient, you know, you will continue to move forward, your career will continue to develop, you will come up with new insights. And so it's. It's just so important to, you know, to not only, you know, be Open to being put in by the coach, um, but to just keep going and then, you know, obviously over time, you then get to coach others, you know, uh, and which is also an exciting dimension.

Speaker B: I actually queued up Mindset, uh, to read next, so I'm very looking forward to that. But, like, cut to the chase. And I completely agree with Resilience, by the way. You know, the whole grit piece, the Angela Duckworth approach, it's something that I subscribe to. Like, what advice, you know, having gone through those different roles and the different elements of your career, what advice would you give to an aspiring leader, uh, looking to reach kind of your level in a marketing company today?

Speaker A: I mean, I think in general it's easy to say this, it's harder to do, but I find it really eye opening when you have a conversation with your manager and say, like, what is really keeping you up at night? What are the toughest challenges you're dealing with? And if they're thinking about it, there's probably a lot of learning that can take you from where you are to where they are. Right. And what they're thinking about. And so if you, if you continue to, A, learn about those topics, but B, take them head on and, you know, or at least move in that direction, you can't go wrong. And so, you know, how they talk about, um, you know, embrace the biggest possible challenge ahead of you. Like, I, I believe that works. Sometimes that can put you in very uncomfortable situations, but it leads to the biggest learning, you know, and at the end of the day, these careers are all about learning. And honestly, you know, we talk about this too. John, I'm sure at some point maybe you want to talk about it. So I'm, um, as I just mentioned to you, I'm in marketing now, but I've done a lot of product management roles in my back. You know, sort of over the last 20 years, product management has made me a better marketer. And I can now easily see that. But, man, while I was going through learning product management and how to work better with engineering teams and how to create better experiences, I never would have thought that. But yeah, I'm a better marketer now because I did product management. I'm a better marketer now because I have had some sales roles where I've led sales teams. All those things really round me out. And, you know, again, I couldn't have said that even three years ago, but now I can. And, um, I'm thrilled that I have those arrows, uh, in my, in my quiver.

Speaker B: Let's Dive into that. Because, you know, at the moment, we're all becoming, especially with the pace of change and how we're moving into AI, all of us are becoming a little bit of a product manager. I would say, like, what is. What are the particular skill sets you've brought from product into marketing that have made you, uh, made you better?

Speaker A: There's some things that are, you know, very similar and, uh, can make you, if you're a marketer and you're a really good marketer, can make you a decent product manager. You know, at the core, you need to be focused on the customer and you need to understand what are their pain points, what's really holding them back, how do you unlock. How do you make things easier for them, and how do you unlock growth for them? Um, but I think the key thing that I've taken away is in marketing, we see a lot of numbers, we see a lot of funnels. And through a funnel, you can start seeing where the friction might be in an experience or in a journey. For me, what is very clear now is if I see a funnel that looks like it's breaking, there's a big sort of piece of, you know, friction or, you know, conversion goes from 50% down to 5 in one step. My mind very quickly goes to. In what is that experience that customer is going through between here and here? Why is there so much friction? What is. What is wrong with it? And what are some potential solves? So those things I, you know, would have never put together a few years ago. Now that's just where my mind goes, cool, that, uh, the funnel's breaking. What are those experiences? How do we create experiments in order to improve that experience?

Speaker B: You've hit on something there that's not in any of our talking points. But I want to drill into. You use the. Both the term funnel and journey. Like, do you. Do you think they're the same thing? Um, and what do you think is. Do you think anything is changing in that space recently? Um, with the changes in B2B buyer behavior and some of the technologies that

Speaker A: have hit our industry, Do I think they're the same thing? No. I mean, an experience is something that a customer lives through. And a funnel, in my mind, a funnel is just the scorecard. It tells you are things happening in a way that. That the customer actually is able to m. Keep moving with the experience. You know, a dashboard or a funnel will tell you if the experience is broken or if it's working well. But the experience, you know, that that is literally all the Things that are going through their mind, how they're experiencing that, um, product, that experience. So for me, at the core, you know, you want to drive a seamless, easy, consistent experience for our customer. And anything that gets in the way results in, you know, changes in a funnel. But no, I don't think they're the same thing. And um, I think, you know what's impressive nowadays, John, is like all the tools that we now have to diagnose, right. If something is really changing in that experience, we, um, use Mixpanel M a ton. But honestly, I can't tell you how much we talk about instrumenting every part, every possible part of, you know, a product in order to understand where are the drop offs, where are the, what are the changes that we can again experiment with. But you know, I don't know that we discussed this last time, but one of the most exciting, exciting parts about most of our jobs now is if you do it right, um, to get better at a job quickly, your job is to design a portfolio of experiments. And what you have your team do is just experiment on an ongoing basis in order to keep moving in the direction of growth and a better experience. That's exciting to me and I think

Speaker B: that's like coming right back to the point we made around, um, moving into putting me in and sometimes being aware of the risks. I think it's also important that all of us are resilient enough to know that sometimes we won't always be successful. But actually you're talking about a B testing really what you're mentioning there talking about testing anything in a product or in a marketing sense. Microsoft did some research a long time ago now and said every good idea. Like we all love wish casting in meetings, especially in product. Like wouldn't, uh, it be great if it did our homework for us if it walked our dog or looked those lines? And Microsoft found that a third of all ideas actually have a detrimental effect on our customer. A third do absolutely nothing and a third actually have a positive effect. Which is why if you use that stat and just think about back to the put me in coach element you mentioned a moment ago, you need to be resilient enough to know that you're only going to be right maybe 30% of the time and um, maybe even less than that, a lot of it. So. But how do you, how do you devise that kind of safety in your team so that they're comfortable only being right a third of the time?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think, you know, it starts with having clear conversations, John, about About just that, which is, you know, even if you have, you know, really good intuition and you've been in uh, an area of the world, you know, and um, you're probably going to be right just over 50% of the time, you know, like, that's just the way like goes. You can't, um. Just because something is true to you doesn't mean it's going to be true to most of our customers. You know, very often we're not our customer, you know, and so you can't just assume that's going to work. So it starts with a bit of humility, you know, creation across everybody. Like we just got to test it. Let, let the test tell us where it goes. I think secondly, um, you know, you start by rewarding the right behaviors and the bottom line. I can tell you again, you know, our cmo, Michael Strickman, he um, a lot of his background is in Uber performance marketing. So at Uber you can probably imagine the number of, you know, experiments that they ran. And um, he turned a very complex business into a much more simple one. So taking a lot of, you know, what he learned there and teaching us how to do it, it's pretty, we're going through just massive transformation. That's um, a lot of kudos to him. Um, but at the end of the day, you know, you need to be able to look at all those experiments and build a portfolio of them, knowing that some of them will fail. And so, you know, a big part is communicating to the team. This is just the way we're going to get better. When you do experiment because frankly, you've heard of the Hippo's opinion, uh, the highest paid person, uh, in the room that can take over. Um, but that matters nothing. Um, what matters is what your customers actually do. And that's why we do a B testing left and right.

Speaker B: Completely agree. You also mentioned um, sales a moment ago as well. So like, you know, thinking, thinking back about all of the different experience you've had across go to market and product and, and sales, like how is that? Let's talk about your current role. Like how has that shaped how you approach your partners, um, or your accountants in this bookkeeping?

Speaker A: You know, frankly, like I said, I do believe that sales has made me a better marketer. And the reason it's relevant is even within an organization like Xero, right when we're trying to reach, um, accountants and bookkeepers, our partners, sometimes we do it directly through marketing. And it might be digital means, you know, we, we go through Google, we go Through Bing, we go through a variety of other, you know, channels to try to reach them directly. Sometimes we go indirectly through sales, right? We create materials, we create websites that our sales team uses in order to reach our partners. And, um, what's made me a better marketer is, um, having led sales teams. I understand some of the things that might hold the sales teams back from being effective in chatting with our accountants and bookkeepers. And so my point is, um, I work better with a sales team because I've led one before, and I can understand, you know, what they might need and when they might be running into issues. But at the core, you know, we're all talking to customers. And so, you know, one piece of advice I got a long time ago was, uh, in order to have effective communications, you know, broadly in marketing but also in sales, you gotta speak to the customer in their own words, right? Like, we could make things very, very complex. But if you speak back to them in their own words, they're more likely to hear you. They're more likely to realize, okay, this person speaks my language and engage in conversations or engage in, you know, trialing new products. So that, that's the part where my sales experience has helped me be a better market.

Speaker B: How do you translate that to the channel and to, to accountants? And like, is there, is there something from that, that, that. Then do we have to change that approach when we're dealing with partners?

Speaker A: You know, I don't, I don't think so. There's, there's a couple things that are relevant in terms of, um, how we work with partners. Because we, we work with partners at Xero both, you know, obviously they, they recommend our product to their, their customers, but, but we build product for them too, right? So they're both a customer and a channel. And I think we're very comfortable, um, with that notion. Um, we need to understand, you know, that, that accountants and bookkeepers didn't get into the business of accounting and bookkeeping to sell their services. Like, that's just not something they're very comfortable with. And that's okay. You know, um, they. Most accountants that I talk to, you know, they are there to help small businesses succeed. They're in the business of helping. Um, so what I've found that to be true, and I think, you know, John, you and I, um, found this a long time ago, is accountants love to be educated. They love to learn how to use products, how to use them to their full potential, and how to use them to make small businesses lives better. So in my world, you know, education is a really important tool. It's a really important, uh, almost, you know, base that we can all build on. So a world of creating webinars or certifications that help accountants and bookkeepers better understand a product and the value it adds to their clients. That's a no brainer. And so, um, you know, there, there are certain things that, that are not salesy, they're just true. Right. It's universal. Education is really important. Um, but it helps an accountant get more comfortable recommending a product.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And so we can all that, you know, we can all do something with that. Ah, and add value in ways that seem counterintuitive.

Speaker B: I think, you know, the way you describe it there, it's, it's, you know, you're dealing with the common challenge of like speaking to what is quite a technical audience. It's the same with developers. Right. We don't like being marketed to, but if you can teach us that something is better and educate us and enable us, um, then we're more often to feel comfortable recommending it and talking about it. Um, and so I think there's a, there's a kind of very logical element there that sits with, sits with those kind of individual.

Speaker A: There's a framework that we've used at many places where I've worked, John, which is if in this case, you know, an account or bookkeeper, um, if you want them to recommend a product on this side of the spectrum, they need to know your product first, they need to be made aware of it, they need to use it, they need to love it in order to recommend it. So no use love in order to recommend. You know, there's a spectrum there and you can play that out across any product. Right. Are they actually, do they, do they even know it exists once they do, are they using it? If they're not using it, it's going to be hard for them to recommend it. And unless they love it, you know. And so this is when, you know, if an accountant, bookkeeper is talking to you about something and they feel really passionate about it, they probably know it, they use it and they love it. Um, otherwise they wouldn't be making my recommendation.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean we saw from some of the projects when we're us deploying into Australia and the uk, when we were speaking to accountants and bookkeepers, just there was a, there was a hockey stick, uh, curve when they started to use something, um, that, that would just mean they would go from kind of not feeling comfortable to then using it nearly daily. Um, and so we had to, we had to get them to hit that hockey stick.

Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, so I'm not surprised, you know, that I think the, the playbook now for most technology products that work with accountants and bookkeepers is you give it away for free to an account or bookkeeper, just get them to use it because, you know, they'll pay you back in spades. Um, but, you know, if they're not using it, that's, that's almost like, you know, you're stuck at, you know, zero.

Speaker B: Talking about partner enablement. Kind m of going on a different tangent here. I think this is something that I'm very, very passionate about. You know, you've worked across Regent Receipt, Banks, Sage, Visa, Insuit, like all these, uh, finance and accounting companies. Like what, what would you say they're doing? And I think at the moment also there's a big drive towards, let's just deploy more technology, let's deploy a learning system, let's educate them. What would you say companies do? Well, uh, and what would you say they need to improve on to enable their partners?

Speaker A: More and more we're learning from each other what works well, and we're trying to build those into accountant partner programs, if you see what I'm saying. Um, I think what companies don't do as well is just spend quality time with accountants, understanding their pain and how we can solve their pain. I think what I've found, uh, as much as I like to say that most of the insights are universal and they're global and many of them are, is sometimes it's that last little localization, like we call it, like last mile. Um, localization is what drives a lot of value for accounts and bookkeepers. And so, I mean, I can tell you just from a specific, um, use case. When I used to work at QuickBooks, there was a product team in Australia that all they did was build last mile localization efforts for small businesses and accountants and bookkeepers. And it was that team that was adding probably the most value of all the product teams because they were really spending a lot of time with the local customers understanding, you know, and some of the stuff they did. A US account or bookkeeper, a, uh, US small business would have never, you know, thought of it as important. Um, so my point is, like, you just got to spend time with them in their office, feeling their pain. Uh, I think most technology companies are not doing enough of that.

Speaker B: I mean, it comes back to what we were mentioning just a moment ago, like, know your customer, in this case, your customer is your Partner or bookkeeper or reseller. And if you're not spending time with them to understand them, um, I think the challenge I always have with that being really honest is, is how you then justify the expense, the time to go and spend time with one, you know, one or two partners, um, like it. It can be quite difficult if they're not making sales yet to say, like, I want to go and, you know, go deep with them. And that's the, that's the bit that logically doesn't. I find quite hard to add up.

Speaker A: Yeah. I think. I tell you what, the only other thing you just kind of triggered, um, for me, Don, is, um, at zero. I've just found we're a bit of an experiment factory. It's a great thing because you very quickly can tell if something is working or not. And if it works, then you can pour gas on that fire. If it doesn't, you pull it away and you move on. I think many people believe that accounts and bookkeepers will react negatively to experiments. And I don't believe that to be the case. And, uh, what I mean by that is, you know, their customers, just like you and me, and they, they like it when we, uh, as, you know, vendors, like, create value for them. Sometimes the best way to do that is, you know, create an experiment and it might be around partner enablement, it might be about anything you want. But I think there's. They're logical, they understand that, you know, we, we all have businesses to, you know, make work as well. And so I think most of us are not experimenting enough with accounts and bookkeepers. We certainly experiment a ton with our small businesses. I don't think we experiment enough with accounts and bookie.

Speaker B: I think you answered my next question with that, which is what's the one piece of advice you would give to partner marketers looking to stay adaptable? And I think it's to experiment, right? Uh, to be comfortable, experimenting, experiments that

Speaker A: are more likely to work. You know, you do need to spend that time to put in that elbow grease, you know, in the office, you know, trying to understand what are the things that are, you know, keeping them up at night that are. They create a lot of friction for them and then experiment along those lines. But, yeah, I think, you know, they understand. And, um, sometimes we're going to get it right, sometimes we're going to get it wrong. But there's nothing wrong with experimenting.

Speaker B: So. So my last question, just to sum up here, because this has been, I think, really, really insightful. Like, what's. What's the one. You know, we started right at the beginning talking about your career. From FMCG to Visa to Insuit to Receipt bank to Xero. What's been the one lesson that's stuck across every role that you've had? Um, what would be the big, the big call out or piece of advice if you were to. Could speak to yourself 20 years ago?

Speaker A: Yeah, you know, it probably, I mean, at the risk of sounding repetitive, um, it's related to Put Me in Coach. It's around. Don't be afraid to lean into a risk. Don't be afraid to lean into and take the opportunity. That feels a little bit scary at the beginning. Um, honestly, what's the worst that can happen? A job doesn't work out and then you go and you learn about a new one. Chances are if your manager knows that, uh, you are trying really hard and you're putting all of your efforts towards making something happen, most of the time, I found they'll give you a chance and they'll give you more than one chance because you exhibit that resilience. You exhibit that, you know, willingness to learn. But it is all, but it is all in your mindset, John. And so I, I do think, um, it's a great read. Uh, check out, um, mindset and, uh, and Grit by Angela Duckworth as well. Um, if you stick with things and you're willing to learn and you kind of persevere, uh, you know, it's very interesting where the world can take you. I can't believe I'm a Guatemalan sitting in California, you know, with, you know, kids that were born in America, but we now live in Australia. It's crazy. Um, but, but that's what happens when you stick with things and you, you know, you get educated and you continue to learn. It's exciting where life can take you.

Speaker B: Love it. Um, Luis, it's been a real pleasure to have you on the tech marketing podcast. We've, like I say we started. We've known each other a long time, so it's been a long time coming to get you on. Um, and yeah, wish you all the best in the next, the next few career moves. Um, keeping being. Putting back in coach. Uh, and, uh, yeah, keeping that curious mindset.

Speaker A: Thanks, John.