143 | Leading with purpose, curiosity, empathy and the drive to empower

Speaker A: So welcome to another episode of the Tech Marketing Podcast. I'm very pleased to be joined in the virtual recording booth by uh, an old, I'm going to say an old colleague, an old client, customer, uh, of ours, uh, Brad Spikes. We met when you. Back at, when you were back at Intuit. Actually Brad wasn't uh, it. But you've had an incredibly varied career since then. So welcome to the Tech Marketing Podcast, Brad.

Speaker B: Uh, thanks for having me, John. Excited to catch back up with you. It's good to reconnect.

Speaker A: So you're the VP of Strategic. I'm going to try and get this right. The VP of Strategic Ventures and Marketing at Northwest center at the moment, aren't you? Um, before we dive into your incredibly varied career, why don't you tell me a little bit about what your current role involves, um, and how you've ended up here.

Speaker B: You bet. Yeah. So the marketing part's probably easier to explain. I think it's the pause everybody has on those strategic ventures and what the heck that means. Um, the big picture of it all is I work for Northwest center, um, which is a nonprofit and it's all about um, everything um, there is about supporting um, children and adults with disabilities. So programs from cradle through career, which is just something on a personal note, really resonates with me and a great opportunity to give back. But when I first started there, one of the questions was I had was how the heck do I fit in? How does my tech background fit into a place like this? And so what's unique about um, Northwest center and the way that they work is while you have this umbrella nonprofit underneath there are five social, um, enterprises, um, which are profit generating businesses where all of the profits and literally all the profits go back to funding the mission. And so my role there is about, you know, leaning in from a strategic venture standpoint and standing up these net new businesses. Building an e commerce platform for a printing company. Never thought I'd be working on a printing company when you talk about my career. But bringing it um, forward and really thinking about how that comes to life along some other businesses as well. So that's the venture side of it and the marketing piece is more obvious. But really thinking about um, marketing, um, end to end, um, it's a small company but a mighty company. So you get to wear a lot of hats, which is exciting. And I get to lean into a lot of my past experiences and at the same time get to continue to learn and grow and build new ones.

Speaker A: So as I mentioned, Brad, we met back at Intuit. Um, but you've had quite a varied career to get there. Um, and in this episode we, as we were prepping for it and throwing things back and forth like we're used, we've talked a lot about KPIs and metrics and how you, uh, talk things up to the board. Uh, in the last, over the last year, what we haven't really talked about much is something that we think is going to come back into marketing, which is empathy, um, and how you essentially build a team to adapt yourself and your team to deal with that uncertainty. So, like jumping into your career for a moment, you've had a great journey. Where did you start? Um, um, when was the moment when you kind of fell into marketing?

Speaker B: You know, so jogging my memory here a little bit, when I first started and I'd moved to, um, the Dallas Fort Worth area from college and that was, I'd love to tell you, like. Oh yeah. Because I knew exactly what I was going to do with my career. I'm not sure I still have that part figured out, but what it really was is, you know, chasing a lot of, um, buddies and friends from college that had all ended up in that area. And I wanted to be there too. And I was very fortunate to land a role at Nokia, uh, which is a global company. And you know, and at that point, you know, it was heads and tails above everyone else. This is, you know, predated the iPhone. And so it was a very recognizable brand. And my role there was more on the IT and project management side of things. My undergrad was in marketing, but I'd stuck around and got my graduate work, um, in information systems because there was so much of the dot com boom and everything was going on and I'd love tech since I was a kiddo and my dad had ingrained that in me. Anyhow, that's where I started. And that role was probably way too much, um, tech heavy for me. But I learned a ton. Like, I learned a ton about process management, more on the project side of things. And then roles start or opportunities started coming since everything was project based around enterprise collaboration. And so that was kind of social media, kind of just starting on more of the B2C side. But on the B2B side I was just blown away by what you could do. The opportunity, especially at a large company like Nokia 50,000 plus folks and the idea of being global and connecting everyone. I really started gravitating towards projects like that. Then with that, one of the projects that had come about was I Was like, there's so much interesting, um, tech in all of these phones and a company that size because everybody has their own little pockets that they're working in. Somebody somewhere knows how to solve it, but it was just a matter of finding them in a company that size. And so I'd had the idea with some of my buddies that I pitched, um, that were more on the developer track of like, how do we build like a, um, you know, a knowledge, you know, um, source or tool, whatever you wanted to call it at the day, that was more social and collaborative in the way that you could share your knowledge, you know, earn, you know, um, points for the knowledge bubble up, et cetera, et cetera. I mean you kind of know how this goes. Um, but, um, through that I started partnering a lot more with the marketing side, um, uh, of the fence. And we got into like they would invite me to come and do demos at um, a lot of the different big tech conferences, the CESS and the ctia. I'm dating myself with that one because that one's not around anymore. But um, the CES is still alive and well. So I started working really closely with a lot of those folks and was very blessed to get an opportunity to lead social and influence marketing, which took my young family, I had a one year old and a four year old at the time, and my wife, um, out to California in the Bay Area. I mean I was still kind of techie, right? So like being kind of in the mecca of all that and working there. But that, that's where I got kind of my, my first real gig if you will, in marketing. Um, um, with Nokia.

Speaker A: The, um, the. Because we were talking about this in the, in the pre call, Brad. Uh, like that was when social and influencer marketing wasn't really called social influencer marketing. Like did it, did it have that, like what for all of our listeners benefit. What year are we talking about here?

Speaker B: Let's see. We are. This is about 2012. 2012, 2013.

Speaker A: Yeah. So we're talking like very early doors. Like influencer marketing was just coming out. There wasn't really an Instagram. Facebook had only been around what, four, five, six years maximum. Um, Twitter had only been around since what, 2008, only been around 4. Like this was very early, early doors with, with some of these new, new techniques. Um, like what was, when you, when you look back at it, did it feel innovative at the time or did it just feel natural? Like, oh, this is just the, this, this is. We, we just need to be working on this like people are interacting on these platforms now. Like how, how did it feel, Brad?

Speaker B: Well, we were fortunate at a global level. I mean we had a, uh, some very strong leaders there that were very well established and knew what they, they wanted to do. And it was very much a, you know, a hub and spoke model between like, you know, the global and the different regions where you kind of, you know, carried through with things that were more bespoke to your audience in your area, etc. But like you said, these were very early days with things like Facebook's. A really good example is like, I mean you didn't have like uh, more of the regional arm of like Facebook at that point. We were just starting. So I mean you had this global presence and like everybody was up, uh, you know, following you know, said brand under like the global brand. But it was just starting to where you could partition off and be like, okay, here's the Nokia US at the time of that. So there was definitely still like, you know, so much learnings and process and how you do it. And then on the influencer side I think we thought much more. We as a company at the time when I had come into it and taken over some things around product placement, uh, was much more of like how do you get this in someone's hands? How do you get it to where then they will like, you know, share it out, talk about it, etc. But not with a real deep understanding of like who is actually like using the phones. And I don't discount like definitely from a brand awareness standpoint, like I think that was very important. But at the same time too, to be completely transparent, I mean we were hemorrhaging money. Like we're trying to survive at this point now, like now things like the iPhone are around, right? And you're trying to get folks to, to use your different products and services, um, you know, um, to try and get the Windows Phone store to where it needed to be to compete with iOS and Android. I mean we were definitely like, you know, a third leg of the stool that was wobbly at best. And so you're fighting like mad to try and get your place at the table. And what we were learning because we were hemorrhaging money and like everything was accounted for, being really data driven and like articulating the need and like the, the what ROI looked like was so important to like speaking to your leadership. You know, they're constantly asking. It was a really tough thing to say, like, oh well, we got this phone in Carly Rae Jespin's hands and, you know, it's on her next video. But, like, really accounting that back and there were models that you could bring it back, but it was like attributing that to sales was much more difficult. Right. And so what we started really looking into from an audience LED perspective is like, oh, my gosh. Um, it looks like, um, young moms, as an example or young dad were actually the ones that were more interested in the device and the, you know, the value prop that we were offering. And so we started spending a lot more time, like in those early days, like the micro influencer side of things, like, oh my gosh, like, let's get on like a mommy blogger. Um, you know, um, but what did they call it back then? Um, and this is, um, uh, because we had these on, on Twitter. I'm forgetting the name of them, John, maybe you remember. But it's when they, they'd hold like, it was kind of like a, um, a group chat. It almost. It felt like a Reddit, like ama, but that's not what it was. Um, where you would just like everybody would get on there from, you know, this mommy, um, group, through the mommy blogger network of this agency, and they'd all get there and talk about things. Then, you know, they'd give away a device and do those types of things. But it was much easier than to provide links to like an AT&T store or something. Like, you started getting some level of attribution for the work that you were doing. And so that's kind of where that stuff was starting to evolve. And we were spending more time, um, pivoting a lot of that spend because if you own the social channels and then you had the influencer side of it too, that marriage between the two became real. And then if you thought about it on a global level, you had things where, okay, there's a big hit movie out, um, and it's. There's the global partnership where you're getting the placements in some of that larger media spin. But then, like, how do you actually connect that with, um, what's going on with like a US audience? And so then we would partner really closely with the folks on the global side that were doing those partnerships. Wonderful guy. Um, and he would then be like, okay, well, let's negotiate into the contract that we're going to get this much content for Facebook, this much content. And then we would execute that on the paid on our side and kind of connect the dots. And so that was in a place where you didn't have a ton of dollars to spend. But, um, you kind of like leaned into the, you know, the idea of working globally. That work.

Speaker A: But I think this is really what I'm trying to get at here because this is a problem all of us have in our different organizations, which is, uh, I have a phrase I often use on my team, like, don't let your job title define your influence, but in this case we're talking about influencers. You went outside of your stream, outside of your job title. You found different, uh, emerging approaches or trends that you want to take advantage of, like partnering on a big, for a big film, and you found the people responsible. Like, what, what was the, what's the secret sauce to make that happen? Like, what is the, what is the way that you approach that to uh, to ensure that you're not just staying in your lane and that you are constantly finding ways of growing your own, your ah, own role, if you will.

Speaker B: That's a good question. I mean, I think at the end of the day for me, what's, what's always been the secret sauce, as you put it, is, you know, a lot of times you just don't know what you don't know. But if you treat people with kindness and respect and like, have that open like, collaborative mindset and really think like, what does success look like for them? And then what does success look like for me? And find a way to meet in the middle on something like that People are just generally at the end of the day, like, I really believe, like people want, and if you assume the best of intentions, they want to work together. But you just have to find that happy medium that, you know, benefits all versus the hey, I need this, or you know, you know, how you respond when somebody actually towards you that way. John. So it was like I always felt in those situations where I, I wasn't really fully versed, you know, and had the background skill set to do X, Y or Z. If I was able to connect on, you know, a personal and professional level first and like really understand like where their pain points are, what I was trying to achieve, how we could work together, that's just kind of been part of the career narrative. Um, that's always helped me.

Speaker A: Um, so you kind of mentioned something there that I want to draw into, like how you connecting with others and kind of helping, essentially enabling them to succeed, I think, is the phrase we want to use here. So when did you first kind of notice that was a core motivator for you, Brad? Like, how has that shaped how you lead.

Speaker B: Yeah, so I think that was, that was very early on. I mean I've been that way since I was a kid. Um, and then, but then I would say like professionally, um, probably, um, early on in my career in Nokia, like when I was even still like starting out on the IT side and you're helping somebody solve a problem and just you would see just, oh my gosh, just the gratitude that came in something like that. Right. Like, you know, like, wow, they were able to help me solve this. And then you get to it over even more on the side where the examples you and I were just talking about like when you're able to help somebody else be successful. And I've always said this kind of like phrase that's resonated with me where it's like the ability of me to do my job directly impacting the ability of someone else to do theirs. Like that just kind of became part of my core professional DNA. And like any, because I was always just so curious and trying different jobs and learning new skills and if you went at it with that type of approach, so many more doors open to learn more new things with folks.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think I'm with you. Like it's, for me it's always having that curiosity um, at the heart of things. Um, so talking about kind of how you approach that, Brad, like let's move on from kind of some of the fast moving roles that you're in to. We were talking about Nokia into when you made that jump into Intuit, like what was your, when we met you were part of the developer ecosystem, if that's correct. Like what were you doing there and how did it um, like what was the change you went through, uh, as you went move between those different roles?

Speaker B: Well yeah, and so to give context on this one too. So um, Nokia, with what was happening there, then there was the acquisition um, from Microsoft. Right. And it was one of those where I was fortunate enough to have a job but I'm like man, Microsoft love that company but it's huge. I don't think I'll ever work somewhere larger than um, Nokia. Right. Um, I was ready for it change, living in the Bay Area. And that's when um, all of that happened. And so that's when the opportunity with Intuit came up. And I think the biggest difference for me is again at Nokia you wore so many different hats because again you know, relied on resources, relied on funds. Like how do you get this done? It was super scrappy. And then you go into an environment at Intuit Where I was leading um, the developer marketing for like QuickBooks Online. It was just coming online or had recently come and you're really enabling the success of other small business developers and pushing them to develop on the QuickBooks online platform. And um, you know, create, we called it their app store. They were really service integrations to QuickBooks Online. Um, but I think the biggest thing there that was eye opening for me after being so much more on the B2C side working with developers towards the end of my career at Nokia is here is it was very much an engineering led org. Um, and not that Microsoft wasn't but like, and Nokia too to a certain extent. But you were used to being around a lot more like primarily marketing folks right, that then worked with these different back office and functions, you know, engineering orgs, etc. And so but here um, it was like they didn't even have a CMS on the website. You were working with the engineering teams to like make updates on there which was like really a different one for me to you know, wrap my head around. And again everybody had the best of intentions. We were super excited about where we were going. We're growing like mad. But then this is a company that while still really large is about 10,000 people. Ish. I mean you may have to fact check me on this one offline and make sure. But I felt like that was around the number and so much smaller in that sense but still um, large. So you still had a lot of the resources available to you but it was scrappy in that sense and I really liked it from that standpoint. But hopefully that's getting to what you're asking. I may be going off on a bit of a tangent here.

Speaker A: No, no, no, we went, we developer the whole space of kind of, you know, you talked about helping others succeed. You know I, I might have jumped at it when I said curiosity there as well. Um, like these are really important things when it comes to communicating to develop like a technical audience because ultimately the technical audience, you know, especially with what we were working together on at Intuit, um, yeah, that was all about how do we help this group of um, technical people build the best and market the best business. I don't know if I told you this story before Brad, but I remember sitting down with um, one of the developers at a QuickBooks Connect event and this must have been like 12 years ago, this is a long time ago now. Um, and he was telling me all the wonderful things his app does. Uh, he was like, yeah, we do. He was using These terms that meant a lot to me. But I could see why his app wasn't getting downloaded or wasn't getting installed because he was going through things like, uh, we build an event driven framework, so we help process events. And so I was like, oh, okay, so you help run events, like physical events. But he's like, no, no, no, no. When something happens in an account, that's an event and it's like, okay, we need to translate that into what your target audience understands. But it was, it was great because it was, that's where my knowledge as a marketeer could help them succeed as a developer. Um, and you know, so it was, it was one of those really fantastic crossovers that will always sit with me. Um, but we had a lot of fun building out some of the stuff, uh, you know, we were working on together. Intuit, um, like talking a little bit about the kind of how you enabled and helped others succeed. Like, how did the cultures gel? Like, what was the. Microsoft is like you say a much bigger company, but Intuit still isn't a small company. Like how, how would the different tech environments between the two.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, you know, I, I'm trying to think of the best way to describe that because like you said, you know, still large environments. I think Microsoft during, during my tenure there and then. And I guess we're fast forwarding a little bit because I went back, so there's bias, um, too, um, with what I learned in that after Intuit. But Microsoft was much more of like swim lanes were a lot more defined. Right. Like you work on this said piece, um, of um, like your role was like much easier to understand. And I think the real thing you tried to work and do is like, how do I get better at collaborating across like a large matrix organization? Like, that was a big piece of that. Whereas Intuit, I mean you pretty much, because it was still small enough, you knew who all the key players were, um, you knew what they were pushed towards. But this was more of a developer marketing, um, thing or at least at the time, versus like maybe a B2C. So when you think about these small business developers who were literally running their own business. Right. Talk about ones that are wearing multiple hats, you know, because they're like you said John and those ones you talked to, like he's trying to talk to you about the marketing side of things. You're like, uh, I'm not sure that's the value proposition you want to be telling. And then you've got, you know, them also doing all the tech like them also doing all the marketing, like trying to find help. So I think that piece it into it, it was very clear who the decision makers were, like who you needed to work with. But from a developer audience, all those engineers, when we would even want to make updates on the website, it was so much more about like what are the data points, right? Like what percentage uploaded this? Like, uh, so how did you build like marketing that really got to the data driven answers. And this was like across all of developer marketing which we got and I learned a ton. It's one of the reasons I went to the B2B developer side from the B2C is because man, if you can convince a developer, um, engineer, right, like to, on the, on what it is that you're trying to solve for and how you can help them through these data driven, you know, messaging and like how it actually adds value to your business or adds value to your business. Um, that, that's a real strong skill set to have throughout your career. So it's, it's funny, you made me think of it too. It's like there was a very um, small boutique agency called Republic when I first started at Nokia. Like, and you, um, you guys. And a lot of what you were doing together like very much is like why I love working with y'.

Speaker A: All.

Speaker B: Um, it was a group of what they refer to themselves as recovering, um, recovering, um, um, PR and comms folks that like understood the, you know, the importance of digital transformation and where things were going. But they approached it through that news story lens and they would always be asking me like Brad, what's the story and why should I care? And so that was one of those things that from a headline standpoint like very early on, and I think developers are very much that way. Like what's the story? Why should I care? Right? And you have to. Clarity is kindness and you have to get to it pretty quick.

Speaker A: I love that clarity is kindness. Um, and actually talking about the technical audience is a challenge that I think we continue to have this to this day. Actually I was just. One of the previous things I've been up to this week, uh, uh, is dealing with the balance between how you persuade a technical audience to achieve a goal, um, when they're not necessarily managed by the people that need to decide the focus. Um, so your product managers or the marketeers, you just mentioned it, with having to get engineering involved to make a change to the website. Um, but if you want it to be data driven, you've also got to respect their opinion. Um, and Try and mold the two. And I think that is kind of real alchemy in our world. Moving away from just talking about KPIs, being able to make sure you're getting the right balance between something being a true data driven decision or a very logical decision and what you need to achieve to persuade your audience or um, whoever you're working with to, to get a better outcome. Like sometimes those things, things aren't compatible. Um, and you've got to, you, you know, you've, you've got to kind of find the right way of aligning them. That's probably a very long winded way of saying something. But it just, it really stuck out for me. It stuck out for me as like, hey, it's, it's, it's still just as relevant today.

Speaker B: It's 100% relevant. Like, and the way I think about it too is that influence without direct authority and like the ability to have that skill is so integral for anything you're doing in life. Right. Like, I mean whether we're talking about developers and engineering audiences is like how do you bring people along for that journey and how do you find that, you know, shared opportunity to win together? Um, that's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a skill that will, will carry you far in life. You don't always get it right, but if you have that at your core, what you're trying to do and how it's going to help others, man, it can sure accelerate growth.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I love that phrase, influence without direct authority. Um, that's really kind of the main thing we're all striving for in many of our roles, isn't it? Um, so if we look back at some of your careers. So we've talked about your time at Nokia. Ah, or Nokia depending on which country we're from here. Um, we've talked about uh, your time at Intuit as well, or the acquisition into Microsoft and then moving into Intuit and you mentioned you then moved back to Microsoft. What was the jump that made you go, you know what I'm going to go back to, to the, to the big um.

Speaker B: M. Yeah, it's a good question because you know, at the, initially at the time when we were um, at uh, Intuit, we being me and my family because you know, they're along for the journey too, it really wasn't on the radar. And um, during my time at Intuit, it came where it was like we were ready for kind of that, that next jump and I didn't know exactly what that was. And my wife and I were like, we, like, since we traveled and lived so many different places, we kind of like, made this deal as a couple where it's like, every year in the new year, we'd assess the following year, like, right. Like, what were. And it wasn't like, oh, we're gonna sit down and write our goals, but it was just more of like, you know, how are we feeling? Where's life at? Uh, like, how do we think the next year should unfold? And I think what we ultimately had decided along this. This timeline was that was it that we were ready for to. And we talked to you, like, do we move back to Texas? Like, are we happy here in California? The kids are getting a little bit older. Are we ready for another adventure? And I think ultimately what we decided was we'd been in California for four or five years, and we were kind of ready for a change of scenery, but we didn't feel like, um, it was time to go back to Texas yet we still have too much to learn. And, uh, a lot of my, um, former colleagues from my no Kid as and partners that I'd met and worked with at Microsoft the last couple of years because we were working so closely on Windows Phone had been hitting me up and asking about, like, hey, you know, like, there's some really great roles over here. Think you'd be a good fit? I always kind of like, you know, pushed it to the side, um, but then a few popped up, and they were with. Which I think is so important on a team. I knew, like, leaders. I knew, um, that I was like, okay, this is an environment that I can be really set up for success. I mean, the caveat of all this was, is it was in Washington State. I'd been to Washington some for work. My wife had never stepped foot in the state. And so it was one of those things where I was like, you know what? Maybe it's time to take a swing. And so, uh, I liked the idea too, rather than. And no slight to, you know, folks going over with the acquisition, but for me, and just the way my brain was wired, I wanted to go through the formal interview process and feel like, you know, I really earned this role that was important to me. Um, and so when that opportunity came up, you know, leaders, I believed in, like, you know, work that I was really thought, okay, I can add value here while still continuing to grow. It was just like, let's take a swing. Let's see what this is like. And so, like, we made the decision at that point to go move up to Washington State and it was, you know, working on student and startup developer audiences and really get them to um, adopt um, Azure as a cloud platform, which in those days was a much tougher sell. Uh, those were some of the earlier days there when the AWS was really king on a lot of things. Then you had Azure and what Google was doing with their cloud. Um, we were a little bit further behind the curve at that point.

Speaker A: You mentioned we talked about this beforehand. When you make a decision like that, you consulted your family, you look to some of the, you know, I guess what I'm asking is like, what would some of the frameworks or consistencies that you built in order to make a decision to, to move on, um, from one company and back, back to the other? Like what? You know, was it a value based decision? Like what gave you the clarity there?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think at the end of the day for me it was definitely values based. It was uh, I was getting into a point my career and I still feel this way about it is like that curiosity piece does kick in, but I'd also been in enough roles and had enough lived experiences in those roles to know better than to just chase the next shiny object. And so I was really trying hard about that over the last several years because you get in some of these roles and man, uh, and no slight to anyone doing this, but it's like, my gosh, you're working your tail off your 80 plus hours a week. And not that I didn't have these nights and days like that and weeks and months like that at Microsoft, but, but just being really intentional about asking yourselves those questions of like, is this a team I feel like I can be successful in? Is this a place I can continue to learn and grow? Am I going to be excited to go to work with those folks every day? So I mean it was much more a values based decision. But then it's also too like the, like, hey, do I feel like this is a place that I can see myself five years from now? Because I've never been a big jumper either. Like, I mean I stayed in oql INTU is probably my shortest tenure and then m in Microsoft my last, you know, seven years or so there. So I. One of the attractions from the larger companies for me has always been that you can almost reinvent yourself, um, at these larger companies over time. You know, you join a new org. Cultures are very different. Um, challenges are very different. I mean you're still aligning to The. To the same mission at the end of the day, which is one that I genuinely believed in. Back to the values pieces. Oh, my gosh. Like, you know, Intuit, Nokia, Microsoft. I've been very blessed to work at companies Northwest center, you know, in the. Much in this list, too, of like, where I really align with the mission and they're working to solve for. So that's probably the way I would think about those.

Speaker A: But, um, I want to. Before we go into where you are now, I want to dive into that a little bit more because it's something that I think, you know, often we get so busy, we forget about the influence others can have on us and on developing us. Um, you know, you've worked under. You talked about knowing the leaders that you're working under. So, you know, you've worked under some very strong mentors. Like, what's. You know, can you. Can you provide, like, one standout story that's helped to guide you and where that's from?

Speaker B: Good question, John. Uh, trying to think of a really good mentorship story that I've got, because I don't know if there's probably one standout. Sorry. That. I think it's almost like the culmination, uh, of the little pieces that I learned, and I'd probably add to this too, is that, man, I think sometimes you learn as much about your leadership style and where you want to be from the bad ones, um, as much as you do the good ones. Um, and not to say that I was like, you know, had a ton of challenging ones, but there were definitely ones where, man, um, you were forged by the fire in both the good and the bad. And I get back to that piece of. I think that some of the best advice that mentors gave me and the way that I talk, whether I was reporting to them or blessed to be able to connect with them through the broader network that these companies offered, was really around the idea of it's okay to not know the answer. Uh, I think very early on in your career, like, I was much this way, if you weren't like, kudos to you, but it's like, uh, say yes to this and then go figure out how to do it. Um, which still is the case. But I think if you don't have the answer and the ability to ask for help, um, which early in the career is like, seen as. I think a lot of folks see it as a sign of weakness. But, you know, the more mature you get in your career, being able to ask for help in a way that's like, hey, and you gotta be solution oriented about it. Right? Like, I'm not sure I know the right direction to go here. And, you know, and I've built out these three different ways that I think are the right way to solve this problem. Any feedback, like, can you help me on that? Like, if you can get to that point? Because you're still kind of saying, like, at the end of the day, and I don't really know, I could use a little help and guidance. I think that part, having the humility to not have it all figured out or feel like you do, you're also giving yourself a little bit of a hall pass. Um, but at the same time too, you know, that's where these folks are, you know, your leaders should be. Is removing roadblocks, giving that strategic guidance so that you can make the right choice.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think, I think, you know, that's great advice, by the way. I'm not sure I would want to work in a company, uh, that didn't value people admitting when they were wrong over when they were, you know, because I think that just that would build a very toxic culture. But the, you know, you, you. But I completely agree, like, it is about finding not, you know, making sure that you can put your hand up and say, hey, I'm. I don't think I'm right here. Or, um, the saying I've always built in, in the teams I've, I've created has been much more focused on, I will always stay up all night and, and sit with you and, and solve any problem. If you, yeah, if you put your hand up and say, I'm stuck. But if you try and paper, paper over the cracks and tell me everything's okay and, um, or worse still, try and pass the buck, like, I'll pull you over hot coals. Like, we will not behave like that. So, um, you know, I think, I think building that culture where it's okay to be wrong, especially in today's world where everything is moving so quickly, um, I think is really important.

Speaker B: Um, so going on to one thing on that, John, if you don't mind me just building on that, because I love what you're talking about there too, and I think it's probably a really important point that I left out. And it is like that accountability side of things, right, Is like being able to stop and say, like, man, that's on me. I mean, talk about the quickest way to build credibility, um, with your colleagues, and that's on me. And here's what we're going to do to make it right. And I'm going to, you know, I'm going to lean in and solve that, you know, and do what needs to be. Like, that part so incredibly important. And it's also to. The other part you're making me think about was the whole idea of fail fast. Um, which is like, how do you learn to like, you know, when you make these mistakes? My gosh, the sooner you can be accountable and say, hey, we're going to stop doing this because I took this on the wrong direction and like, now, hey, I need your help and here's a direction I think we need to go. I think those pieces of that puzzle and like the thought process, the quicker you can get across that chasm, I think the better off you'll be.

Speaker A: Uh, not to take us too far off topic, but we're one of the products. I'm sure you won't be surprised. For me to say we're working at the moment involves AI and I can tell you now the amount of times we have gone, hey, that wasn't quite the right decision we made a few six months ago. Now we need to make a different one. Almost a daily occurrence. Um, and all I've really been telling the teams is, let's just take an aviation approach to this. Like, where none of us are wrong. Just how do we make sure we make a better decision next time? Um, I think, you know, I think you've got to try and remove, make it psychologically safe for people to fail fast. So, yeah, couldn't agree more. Talking about impact and social good and all that kind of stuff. Let's move on to your current role, Brad, uh, where you are at Northwest center, like, how is it, you know, I'm really intrigued because every, I'm going to say every five to 10 years, having spent the last nearly 20 years in tech, I get this kind of slight little itch. Um, so, you know, I don't know where it is in my body, but there's a little itch that just sits there and says, why? You know, you're helping companies that make black boxes with blinking lights on sell their blinking lights to other people that want that make black boxes. Like the whole tech thing, sometimes when you go down that little cynical role road just feels like, what are we actually doing? Are we really making the world a better place? And that sounds like a big cliche thing as well for a Silicon Valley startup to say. But, like, you know, occasionally I fall down that little rabbit hole and say, what, what am I doing here? Wouldn't it be great to be doing some social good? So, you know, Brad, I'm really interested to know, like, how. How have you found that transition? Um, and secondly, how has it felt as you've gone through that? Um, does it. I'm sure it does make you excited every day, but, like, how do you balance some of that with the progress that tech companies made before? Especially, you know, in a world now that's now so surrounded by AI?

Speaker B: It's a good one. I mean, when. When I first made the decision to, to. To go there, you know, was blessed with the opportunity to go there, it was, it was definitely that whole thought process that you and I have been talking about was going through my head. You know, is this the right place? How am I going to fit in here? And I consulted there for about three months. Um, first, working for a former leader that I used to work for at Microsoft who had told me, um, like when I, um, had done a reflection post on LinkedIn, what I was thinking about next and was. Was literally kind of talking about how, like, I think I might go down a different, different route completely. And she'd reached out to me about this role, and, um, it was, it was wonderful to catch up with her, you know, and it had been years since I'd worked with her at Microsoft, and she was sharing with me what they were doing, um, at Northwest Center. And it was one of those things where you have that conversation and it's kind of like, wow, it's great to connect, but I just don't really see how I fit. And it was kind of like, you know, hope we can stay in touch. Right? Like one of those types of conversations where it's wonderful, but you don't really think it's leading to anything. And then she'd sent me a, uh, an email about a week later, and it's like, here's the top 10 reasons I think you're making a mistake and you should be here. And, um, I'm reading through this, and I'm so grateful for sending this, but I'm reading through this list and I'm like, damn it. I can't argue with a single thing on this list. This actually makes a ton of sense. Um, and so ended up consulting there for about three months, working more specifically on this commercial printing company that I mentioned earlier. But they didn't really have a, um, a digital footprint, so to speak. Right. Like, most of their lives were like, relationships in the Pacific Northwest. And so my thing was, you know, how do I come in build a tech stack end to end, have an E commerce presence, like build a brand, like think about what go to market looks like. Who's our audience that we're going to be targeting. So all these things I've worked on and all these disparate roles, we're now like in a place that I could do all this together. As I'm going through this consulting piece I'm like oh my gosh, I can't believe I was so quick to discount that. And that's probably some other advice that I mean I give to my kiddos who are still young and don't want to hear it from me. But maybe this is documented for posterity and they'll listen to it someday. Um, but it is really around the idea if you don't know it's dip your toe in the water. A three month consulting gig like what it would start at. It's not a bad idea if you don't really necessarily know what's next. I mean you need something anyway or I did to uh, keep the fires burning to really go out and learn new things. But so as that started to mature over the course of those three months, you know, and I'm working more on this, I'm like oh my gosh, I can add value here. Like there is so much opportunity in social enterprises, not even just this one, but the other ones that we have. And I'm leaning into the marketing side of it with some of the pre existing businesses and it's interesting just being completely vulnerable here. You go in a place with ah, at Microsoft and other companies that I've, you know, been fortunate enough to work at or like this as well where it's like sometimes you go into some of these big meeting rooms and the things that are going on and there's a little bit of imposter syndrome. You're like looking around, you're hearing some of the stuff coming out of people's mouth and you're like, man, do I belong in here. And then you ultimately like, you know, you just get the courage to speak up and do your work and you realize you do. But like now I'm in a place where there's not as many of those voices in the room and you feel like the strong weight uh, and the accountability of those decisions even more so you're like this company doesn't have the luxury of all of those resources or all that time or the larger um, um, accounts to cover some of these things. And so the weight is there but then there's Also this, um, breath of fresh air around when I make a decision. More often than not, I had the support of my peers. And you just go right like now. And it's not to paint, like, it's all roses too. Like there's still plenty of days where you're reminding yourself. And my boss would say this and uh, I love her for it. She's like, Brad, on those rough days, just remember it's for the kids. This is about the ones with disabilities. And like all that. And so, and I guess that's kind of maybe back to the question that you were asking too. There's like all those other places I've worked at have really strong missions that are really about, you know, supporting, enabling the success of others. But you're very close to it here, closer than I've ever been. Um, and you know, and having my son, um, on the disability side has had some real challenges, like early in his life with dyslexia and dyscalculia. And I'm, you know, very fortunate that I've got a, uh, you know, an incredibly, um, wise wife, much smarter than me, um, that noticed some of these things early and had, you know, got him into the right schooling. And we were, you know, fortunate to have the resources and you see just the progress that can be made with those types of programs when you get them into it early. And we'd always told her so I was like, you know, when I actually have time, like someday to get into a place career wise where um, um, or past my career, where I can just donate my time and give back. This world is where I want to spend my time. And so now you're in a place where it's like I'm getting a paycheck and I'm close enough to help this and I'm getting to learn new skills and you know, being able to support and help through the things that I've learned to date, it's like that. That's very rewarding in that sense.

Speaker A: Yeah, I know exactly what you like. I can tell you the moment when I'd always question myself in tech, uh, when it was whenever I saw one of my friends who. And um, she has an OBE now, um, which means she's been recognized by our sovereign, um, so she was recognized by our queen. But she would talk about the stuff she was doing out in um, different countries, helping with, helping with goals, things like nutrition and you know, in disaster struck zones. And you kind of sit there and say, well I'm, I'm helping a laptop manufacturer sell 10% more laptops. This, you know, it just felt so empty and so unauthentic. I would say. Um, you know, it just, it just didn't feel like, hang on, is this the best, is this, is this my best contribution to society? So, you know, it, it does make me always wonder like, how can you, how can you blend the, blend the two, um, actually talk, you're talking about that and intention, you know, being intentional with all of our time. Like some, you know, some large tech companies do try and blend those two worlds. Like Salesforce, have the famous 1% pledge, um, 1% time, 1% equity, 1% of revenue or profit. One of the two, um, the, like, what have you seen, like I guess out in the tech space, have you seen any, any good ways that they've been able to blend those two worlds together? Um, that's been a win, win for both, both the charity and the impact sector and for the tech company.

Speaker B: Yeah, Um, I would say, um, yes to all the above. Again, like, very blessed to work in organizations, um, that have a genuine commitment to giving back. I mean Microsoft's phenomenal with that. Right? And like most, um, not all employees like, have that mindset too because it's just a genuine part of the culture there. And so uh, that, I mean that was always refreshing, you know, and something I never took for granted there because it was very like front of mind and intentional in the way that they approached it, um, into it. Very similar. Um, Nokia was the same way. I don't have specific examples but I know that I stuck around those places because that was again like really a core part of my value set. And so being at places where you felt that commitment to, you know, community, to others, like, like, yes to all the above. And like, you know, you're even making me think about like some of the, like how you connect the uh, selling the widgets and raising this 10% with like the giving back. Like, I think that's the part of like the developer marketing that always drove me to it. And the B2B side, right, is because you have these small companies that are just fighting like mad to get above board and be successful. And when they're coming to you, trying to understand like, hey, like I need like documentation on this API or like where are the, um, you know, where's this or that you just, just like being able to help them be successful through those different things is like that that was closer to it. Um, I would just say that what I'm doing now is probably even more

Speaker A: so yeah, completely agree. So we've gone on quite a journey today, haven't we, Brad? From your initial career starting in Nokia, um, learning, you know, falling into social media and influencer marketing. Acquired by Microsoft into Interrupt for developer marketing, which, by the way, is a huge rabbit hole. I love going down that rabbit hole. It's one of my favorite.

Speaker B: We did great work with you guys. You were awesome in that. It was good to go there.

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, it's not just the Intuit piece, but how you influence, uh, us technical folk, uh, back to Microsoft and of course the Northwest Center. So it's been like, you have been in some absolutely fantastic organizations. For one piece of advice to give our listeners to our aspiring tech marketeers navigating their careers out there, um, through this uncertainty with AI at the moment, through this need to want to work all the hours, um, what advice would you give them about when to pause and when to pivot?

Speaker B: You know, I think probably that this in its purest and simplest form is just get out of your own head. Like, which is like. I mean, I'm a little bit hypocritical saying it because I'm there on a regular basis, but if you can find a way, um, to be grateful, um, for what you have and step back and have some perspective. For me, I mean, that quiet time, like, get up that extra 30 minutes early, I promise it's not going to kill you. Like, spend a little time. For me, I just, I've got a little gratitude journal. And like, I literally write it. Sounds super corny and cheesy about doing

Speaker A: it, but, like, hey, I do the same. Like, I think this is people, people, like, down. I think, I think everyone thinks, oh, that's a bit kind of, of funny that you do that. I do the same thing every day. Um, and in fact, actually, if you've not read. Sorry to go back to Big Tech and interrupt you there, Brad. There's a great book called, uh, Search Inside Yourself. Um, and it's written by. There's one class at Google this, this guy used to teach, um, which was how to be mindful. And it. But it's. That book completely changed my mindset when it came to this stuff. Like, we talk about gratitude journaling. And I do another. I do journaling as well. And, uh, meditation from time to time. And, and this, what they did with this is they looked at the science behind it and said, like, these behaviors, this is like, this is the impact that it has. Like, by showing you, like, CT scans before and after, like, how it's how it's increased the knowledge center of your brain or how it's, you know, reduced your heart rate or all this kind of stuff. There's like, there's so much science behind it, and I just, I just feel like it's one of the few things that we can all control that can make a difference. Um, so, yeah, you really struck a chord there, Brad. Apologies.

Speaker B: No, I'm glad. I mean, it's cool. We'll have to trade notes on some of this, um, after the fact, but I mean, it is. And it's something anyone can do, right? Like, it literally, like, you don't have to go read, you know, this book or watch this podcast or just get out of your own head, write these things down. And I think what's really cool about it, I'm curious for your experience, but it's just like, oh, my gosh, like, you can look back at that six months from now and you look back at, like, historically of the things that maybe you were stressed about, you're thankful before. Like that, that art of journaling and just putting in a few notes of gratitude. Doesn't have to take more than five minutes. And then you look back, then you're like, you know what, Life's pretty good. Like, these things always work out. Never how you plan them, mind you, but they do work out. So I think that's probably a big piece of the other one. I would say just advice wise, like on that one, it's like you networks pivoting a change, all those types of. Or pivoting into like something else would be. And seek counsel from people that maybe you wouldn't normally seek counsel from. I think there's a lot of like, confirmation bias and you surround yourself with people that know you too well that you, you know, may, you know, unconsciously be biased because, you know, the way they're going to respond is going to be more aligned with what you wanted to do anyway. But, you know, having that, you know, you know, um, board of mentors that you can reach out to and bounce things off of and get those different perspectives is just, oh, it's so important. Like, when I made a few transitions, I realized, like, that board of mentors isn't as strong as it needs to be. And like, you know, I was very intentional about like, connecting and finding a lot of those folks. And that kind of stuff makes a world of difference.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, it's a great piece of advice there, Brad. It's been a pleasure having you on the tech marketing podcast today and going on that, Going that journey together. So I'm going to say thank, thank you for joining me. Uh, hope to have you back at some point in the future with another life lesson. And I think we're definitely going to need to trade notes on some of our, uh, uh, morning or evening routines, depending on when you journal. But it's been a real pleasure. Thank you for joining me on the tech market.

Speaker B: Um, thank you so much for the time, John. It's a pleasure catching up with you, sir.