Episode 14, The Problem with… Legal Marketing: Special live episode with the Legal Marketing Association

The Problem with B2B Marketing is a podcast for everyone working in B2B marketing and sales today. In each episode, we interview expert practitioners to explore specific problems each of them has faced, from common issues to emerging challenges. By talking to people who have been there and done it, we aim to share with you clear, pragmatic, and actionable insights to inspire you to develop solutions of your own. Hello, I'm Kevin Sutherland, uh, host of the podcast, The Problem with B2B Marketing. Today we're taking the show on the road. We're here at the Legal Marketing Association's first ever European conference here in London. The title of the conference today is Strategies for the Future, so we're going to be talking to some of the panelists about that very topic. Um, but also in the spirit of our podcast, where we're going to be talking about some of the common problems in legal marketing, and you're going to hear from participants talking about the use of data in growth strategies, personal branding, the pros and cons, and also the evolving role of the CMO and the problems that that throws up both in strategic and operational terms. And to kick things off, we're going to hear from Karen Morton, who's the current president of the LMA. You, I suppose, are ultimately responsible, Karen, for the conference today, and the topic or the focus of the agenda is strategies for the future. So maybe you could tell us a bit about who you put the agenda together and and what the really important points are for today. Sure. Yeah. Well, look, I mean, firstly, this is a huge team effort. We've got an incredible board, programming committee, and we have consulted far and wide with the members to shape today's agenda. And yeah, it's called Strategies for the Future because it is aimed at identifying the opportunities, the trends, the threats, changes, the phenomenal changes that we are seeing in the legal profession amongst our client base within legal marketing. And that is across communications, client development, branding, you know, all the different areas that we're responsible for. And increasingly within all those areas, we are seeing this huge, uh, leap in tech developments, particularly Gen AI. Um, and so it's a pretty broad program, but it is looking both at whether you are new to the profession, starting your career, or you're already at the C-suite, for both those levels and everybody in between, what do you need to be thinking about to develop your career, develop your knowledge, develop your skill set to align with the direction of travel? And so that was fundamentally where we've— And if I could ask a question, so our regular episodes of this podcast, we talk about problems in B2B marketing. So I have a question around about that. I mean, you've spoken about, and I can see here today, there's a really broad, diverse range of people represented here, and particularly in terms of levels or stages of their career, and you've just touched on that. I wonder, you know, what are the most material or significant problems or challenges you see for people perhaps early in their career in the legal marketing sector, and perhaps, you know, at that CMO level? Yeah, I think it's what I touched on in the beginning. Just, this is, this is a, you know, an industry people don't know a lot about when you come from the outside. There is a lot to learn. There is a lot, whether you are covering, your role covers the whole range of what a law firm does, or you're specialized in a particular practice or industry sector, there is just a lot to learn, and that is constantly changing. And so one of the things is trying to— making sure that through the LMA, through the way we train our teams, we are equipping people to understand the industry we work in, understand our clients' industries. And that's a big theme running through the conference today, this client-centricity. So if you look at the way legal marketing and business development has evolved over the last 20 years, you know, we've moved from client parties, bit of corporate hospitality, some email marketing, to a much more client-centric approach, sophisticated client programs, client listening. Really tailoring everything we do. There's no one-size-fits-all, we know that, and we're hearing that a lot. So moving from the mass to the individual tailored approach. And so, you know, understanding not just the industry and the general skill set and technical skills you need to develop, but really developing your knowledge on a client's practice-specific basis. And one final question for me on the challenges. What I've seen so far on the agenda, there's a lot of discussion about the operational challenges or about better use of data, etc. And as you say, you've got to be across so many things now in a sector that has, you know, adopted and embraced marketing at a rate of knots, you know. Et cetera. I suppose there's a question— I don't see brand represented so highly on the agenda today. There are one or two sessions, but I just wonder, you know, to put it in more straightforward language, I think one of the other challenges is about how any professional services firm stands out, particularly when everyone's got, in theory, access to all the same tools. What's your view or advice on that? Branding covers a wide area. You know, the classic Jeff Bezos quote is, "Your brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room." Exactly. Right. But there, you know, we can think about branding the visual identity, the messaging, but branding is— your branding is how your clients feel when they interact with anyone across the organization. So actually, again, that goes back to the evolution of marketing Business Development, we really think about kind of supporting the organization and the whole of the organization, not just the fee earners, in living the brand, articulating the brand, demonstrating the brand through every single client interaction, from the receptionist to the managing partner. And so actually, we don't necessarily talk about branding in the traditional way, but we are thinking about the client experience more when we think about branding. Great. Well, I know you've got to dash off and introduce the afternoon session. I'm going to be dipping in and out. Which sessions do you think I should pay closest attention to? Oh, you could like asking me to pick my favorite child. I feel very closely to all of the content that we're delivering today. So hopefully there's something for everyone. Thanks, Karen. Thank you. I'm joined here with Peter Skinner, Marketing and Business Development Director at Wedlake Bell. Michelle Holford, Chief Commercial Officer at Slaughter and May, and Owen Williams, Partner and Director of Marketing and BD at Simmons Simmons. You've got all the jobs, right? A lot of letters. Indeed. So, as I said, you've come straight from the stage. I wonder if Peter, as the moderator, if you could just give us a brief summary of some of the core themes and the key takeaways from the session. I mean, that in itself is a big question. Because I think that's the part of, I think, what we've seen or what the panel was talking about was the scale of the roles that CMOs have really got. I should say your session was about the evolving role of the CMO. Exactly, exactly. And the change and actually what I've got, what I have with the panel with Michelle, with Owen and Lesley O'Leary, who is also, who's also on the panel, who's the Chief Operating Officer at Charles Foster Speechley, is 3 people who actually are actually technically CMOs themselves, but have been in roles that have evolved, have been CMOs and, you know, maybe not by title now, have held those positions and have seen an evolution in their role. And actually the job title is just part of it. The scale of the remit and the growth of that, the addition of things being layered on, I think was quite key or almost startling to just listen to these guys and hear what they cover on a day-to-day basis. And actually then how the change that has happened in their own teams and in their own businesses, the way that their roles influence the partnership, the way that influences the strategy of the businesses in which they're in, I think is key. And the fact that they are all, or we are all, connectors, whether that be connectors of teams, whether it be connectors of clients, whether it be connectors of partners to clients and to teams. It's just, it's multifaceted. I wonder if I could jump in on that point and maybe bring you in, Rowan, because I watched the first part of the discussion and wrote down one of the things you said, which was, as a CMO going around the firm, things tend to stick to you, right? So I thought that was notable, right? And the other thing, and maybe I didn't see the last part of the discussion, but I got the sense that quite rightly most of what you were talking about was quite operational in focus, right? It was quite much more about how the firm operates and how your role evolves within that, and perhaps less strategic, right? So, um, oh, and I wonder on those, those kind of points, that thing about stuff sticking to you, how do you deal with that? And also perhaps maybe Michelle, you can come in on this, the, um, that question about how the role is evolving in more of a sort of strategic But I'm not rational. Maybe Owen first. Yeah. So I think the theme of, you know, we are client-obsessed individuals and have grown up and have, you know, gained more senior roles and more status within the organization because of that obsession around the clients. What that means is you travel around the organization frequently, spending a lot of time outside your own function. Outside marketing and BD, talking with other individuals in order to achieve the objectives and the goals with regards to a client relationship, a client need, something we're trying to build around a sector which has got client expectations firmly behind it. So you're talking with lighting, you're talking with finance, you're talking with lawyers in different offices. You get— you— that obsession around the client can take you to any part of the firm. And when you're having those conversations and, you know, a good example being pricing, which, you know, Richelle is, is one of your pieces as well. We set up a pricing function within marketing and BD probably around about 4 or 5 years ago. We hadn't had one before. Traditionally, those functions live within finance. Yeah, but, but building it from within M&D ensured that it would be clients focused from the start. And so, so that's just one example of something sticking to you. Suddenly I'd built a pricing team, but there are plenty of others. So you see, this is a really interesting point. I had a conversation on this podcast about a month ago with a global CMO who spoke about how the role of marketing more generally, you know, if you go right back to the sort of Philip Kotler sort of classic, you know, pricing was a core part of the responsibility of marketing, and we have contrived or conspired to sort of, you know, lose that responsibility. So it's really interesting to hear that you're bringing that back in. So yeah, thank you for that. Probably a good segue to Michelle. Yeah. So my role at Sauter May is the Chief Commercial Officer, which has comms, marketing, business development, pricing, but also legal operations as well. So any part of business services that touches on a client sits within the commercial team, and that means that the client knowledge flows right the way through that team, from identifying the clients that we want to work with to getting to know them and building relationships, to pitching for the work, pricing the work, and then delivering the work in the most efficient way. So it's a very joined-up, you know, to Owen's point, is the joining up of the client knowledge across all of those functions works well. I wonder if I can move the discussion on then to sort of the problems or framing You know, I mean, how long have you got? Well, you know, and this is all about strategies for the future. And so by definition, we should be kind of expansive and progressive and sort of, you know, positive in our thinking. But day-to-day reality, you know, we're all facing, you know, external changes, internal challenges, etc. I don't know, how would you, in the context of the evolving role of the CMO, what would you point to as the biggest problem or challenge that you, that you are either facing individually or that you see across the sector? So one of the problems that we talked about in the session just now is, is how the complexity of how we go to market has massively increased over the last few years. So the number of digital channels that we have to work with, the amount of data that we now gather as a result of the digital marketing activities, the way in which people work, for example, say the events that they want to come to, they don't want to come to in-person or online events, you're running hybrid events. So the enormous complexity then of how you do all of those things, run the channels, do the events, do the follow-up. Just means that you have a much wider scope of people within your team. On the one hand, that's a great benefit because you've got all this incredible talent in your team that is dispersed into different areas. On the other hand, as a, as a CMO or CCO or whatever your title is, it means that you are running and managing a team which is much broader and wider with a much wider range of skill sets than you ever have before. And you need to be able to, A, manage those teams successfully and provide a sense of purpose to them. But you also really crucially have to then be able to explain into the partnership what those teams are actually doing and what all those individuals are for. So you don't then get somebody saying, well, that's a very large team. What are all those people doing? You have to be able to translate the value that the team brings into the partnership. And that, that is a pretty big part of whatever C role that you have. I think one thing, one thing I picked up that you said, Michelle, in that, in the session as well, was that you can't not know what's going on. You can't just palm it off to other people and let them deliver it and hope everything's gonna be okay. And then when it hits the fan, actually have no answers to those questions. You have to have a degree of knowledge and understanding and not necessarily day-to-day involvement. You can't wash your hands of the responsibility. And part of the problem when you're growing teams is, you know, you just get spread so thinly. And you're trying to keep on top of everything that's going on. You physically and naturally can't, but there will be a moment in the day or in the week or in the year where you have to step in and you have to know and you have to have those answers. And I think that being agile in that one, we didn't really talk about the agility, but being agile like that, I think it's a real, real challenge as these teams get bigger, as the remit grows, as we surround ourselves by experts. That's what, you know, I always want to hire people who are better than me. Not to make me look good, but actually so I can trust them. We used to— I think we used the word— Owen, you used the word trust and trusting the team around you and having really good people with you. I think that's critical, but you still can't wash your hands of it. Yeah, you have to be quite elastic. You have to be able to both cover a lot of ground strategically, but as you say, dive into the weeds when a problem arises, because you are expected to know. One of you on the panel used the the phrase unbundling of the role, and I think it was in context or in connection with this idea that you've been speaking about here, which is that the sheer breadth you have to be across or indeed have to intervene in can sound almost impractical or, you know, a huge problem, right? So have you seen any of that kind of unbundling happening? And perhaps a related question, A lot of the things you're talking about historically would've been outsourced to sort of agencies or external partners. You know, we see that, you know, for very good reasons, you know, a lot of those things are now seen as absolutely core to the firm's success. And so rightly they are now housed within the business. But how do you deal with and manage that problem of complexity? I mean, Owen, maybe you're the guy with the 3 job titles, so maybe you're the right guy to answer this. I mean, it's— I don't see— I don't necessarily see a theme of unbundling. Right. Yeah, I think it's about being selective and it's about our functions and other functions evolving as different skills are needed to deliver certain things. And so I think, you know, a good example being the work that marketing and BD teams are doing with IT. And third parties and trying to work out how to get the best model that delivers the best results. And you've got to be completely aware that that's whatever you decide upon today might not be fit for purpose in 4 or 5 years' time. And so it's about keeping a very open mind, being very curious and being, being open to change. And I think law firms are not always the best organizations when it comes to change. And so I think something we often forget is having within our leaders that change capability. That's something that's going to be crucial in the future. If I could come in on that point, and inevitably we have to talk about AI, right? You know, in any conference or podcast or what have you, you know, it always comes up. One of the things that we've seen, particularly in working with professional services firms, is that AI has already disrupted their core business. And so they, those successful ones, have already had to embrace AI within the workflows that deliver the, you know, the core product or service offering. And as a result, I think it's fair to say that we think some of the professional services firms are probably more advanced in their adoption or application of AI within their marketing workflows and their business development activities, you know, perhaps more so than, you know, perhaps more innovative sectors, if you like. Is that true? Does that sound familiar in your cases? How's AI being applied? We are behind, actually. Okay. The marketing BD team in my in my particular firm, I think we're behind, but in a way that's not a bad thing. The reason I say that, we are, we're doing a lot to implement AI solutions that support us with the delivery of the work and the execution of the work. And I think that always had to come first. Through that process, we've learned a lot of lessons, and I think picking up on those lessons and applying them to our plans to deploy AI into certain M&B processes, certain processes that get work into the firm. I think it's kind of actually okay that we've not advanced those as quickly as we maybe would have liked to have done. And the other thing is that we're learning lessons all the time as a firm in terms of the work that we're doing for clients on AI as well. So, so yeah, I think we're slightly lagging, but not in a bad sense. So Peter and Michelle, yeah, is Is what Owen said, is that the same in your firm? Yes. So I think, I think so. So all law firms are exploring how to use AI. But you're right, I think it's being deployed for the benefit of clients as opposed to some of those business services functions. But without doubt, business services functions will over time be, will evolve hugely from the introduction of AI. We have a program at the moment asking each team within the commercial department to understand what their best use cases are for AI and how they should apply them and whether there are those use cases that we can use in the rest of the business. So for example, we have a research and insights team. It is very clear that some basic research functions can be now carried out through ChatGPT and others. So what are the prompts that we should be sharing with the business for basic research on a target client or on a, on an existing client if they're going to visit the GC that day? And so we need to make sure that they're still adding value in the terms of the work that they do, but we need to make it easy for the business in terms of being able to use AI to access services that they might have otherwise done. And we have to do that because otherwise it's going to evolve that way anyway. So all of my team are thinking about the use cases they have for AI, even if what we've got today are relatively broad generic tools rather than specific ones for the deployment in marketing and BD. So in the firm I'm in, which is considerably smaller than Slaughter and Simmers, to be perfectly honest, you'd think that a firm like Wedlake Bell would be, you know, one of those disruptors, innovators, absolutely going after AI. But we're still cautious because as a law firm, you're inherently cautious. And yes, we are using it. We are using AI. We don't have the resources to build our own platforms and those sorts of things, but we are deploying it across the business. But what I don't think you're ever going to get away— well, maybe not ever, but right now you can't take the human piece out of it. You cannot trust it to the point where you can just push it out. And we were talking first thing this morning, there was a CMO breakfast this morning, and one of the points we were making there is actually it's really useful for senior people because they've got the knowledge of what it should look like, what the output should be. The challenge is for the younger generation who don't know what necessarily correct or right or accurate is, and then they start making sweeping assumptions. Well, there we go. I've got it done. Got it off the desk and goes. So there are dangers, but actually it's probably more valuable, we were saying, I think, for the senior end of people who are using it rather than necessarily the juniors who just don't quite grasp the risk factor that's involved. Yeah, I read a piece this morning in the Times. Rowan Silva, who used to advise David Cameron, said something almost exactly the same about how, you know, developments look good, for people who have experience in AI, but perhaps less so for— I think there are things that you can use it for that is fantastic. So the point is using it appropriately for the right things at the right time and understanding where the source is. Yeah. And that's the point of trying to get each team to understand the best use cases for the use of it because, you know, you've got to use it for the right piece of the jigsaw. It's not an end-to-end solution. And the technology is only part of the answer. Certainly, certainly the data underneath. I think, I think most any firm would be lying if they said their data was in great shape. So I think we are all, we've all got a huge amount of work to do before we can really leverage the technology. I think there's a buck to be made for the firm or the company that can use AI and give us everything in terms of our CRM, things like directories, all the stuff. I think there are firms trying to do it, but I don't think anyone's got it quite right yet. Yeah. But AI in itself is as bad today as it's going to be. It's only going to get better. Yeah. Well, and let's hope, let's hope that in the context of the evolving role of the CMO, that it makes things better and easier rather than more challenging and worse. The final kind of quickfire question or thought from each of you on that point about the evolving role. What's the one piece of advice you'd give to your peers in the industry about, you know, how to navigate that evolving? I think, I guess, yeah, key takeaway for me and, you know, reflecting on the discussions we've all had. So I worked at Canon, you know, those clever people who make photocopiers and cameras and And I was there around the mid to late '90s when digital technology was coming in, analog technology was going out, and you could see a whole workforce who had just been recruited to sell boxes, standalone boxes. And suddenly they were then being effectively asked to sell technology solutions. And it was really fascinating to see how that got disrupted, that business got disrupted. I think we're at a really interesting, exciting time for law. And I don't think it will be disruption on grand scale where ultimately computers do all the law. What I think is it will have— and Michelle made a point up on stage— You know, we've got such fascinating, interesting talents now within our business, and we're going to be recruiting more of those different talents that we don't even know what we're going to need yet. And I think seeing how that can work with the fantastic legal sector and the quality of minds within a law firm, I think it's really fascinating. And I would say we talked about— I think our conversation was partially focused on those who might aspire to CMO roles or who are in CMO roles today that would be interested in doing a slightly broader role. And I think the overwhelming message from the three of us on the panel was that you lean into the opportunities that present themselves. You know, nobody is going to come and put in your lap the opportunity of a different role or a slightly evolved role. But if you understand how your organization works and you can join dots and you can fix problems, and inevitably we can do that far beyond our remit because, you know, marketing touches on technology all the time and it touches on lots of other business services functions. Lean into where you can solve a problem because you will pick up interesting opportunities, responsibilities that broaden your remit out if that's, if that's what you're interested in. And I think if you're at the C-level, having a broader interest across the business is inevitable. And I think the last thing I'd add is if you're going to look to broaden it out, do it in the right firm. You can't go— you need to push against an open door. It's hard enough making that change, but if you're trying to make a change in an environment that isn't receptive to it, you're just never going to succeed. So make the choice, take the decision. If you want that evolution and you want that progression and the place you're in isn't right for you, make the decision and try and do it somewhere else. Great stuff. Peter, Michel, thanks very much. So we're here again at the Legal Marketing Association inaugural European conference, and right now I'm joined by Shirley Meyers, head of marketing at BDBF, and Vanessa Montero, who's chief communications officer at Hogan Lovells. Welcome to both of you. Thank you. And we're in a slightly strange situation because the timings mean that we're talking about your session before it's even happen. So this is like time travel, this is wonderful. Um, so, um, you know, the only change that it really means is I've had to change the tenses in my, uh, in my interview plan. But, um, the session that you're talking about today is about building your personal brand, and that's obviously super timely and incredibly relevant. We know there's huge growth in business-to-business communication on the sort of the creator and influencer side of things. But inside firms, we know that there's been a real kind of refocus on getting the voices and the expertise of the firm out there as perhaps the best way to promote the business. Now, with that as context, maybe you could tell me about what you're going to be talking about today. Shirley, you're the moderator, so, you know. Yes, I will be moderating and keeping time. But basically, I mean, we're in an industry now where trust, reputation, relationship, those are key right now. And people don't buy into organizations, they buy into people. So it's really important that we are going to be trying to sort of delve into those insights and those strategies that will help people to craft a personal brand that really resonates. And carries you further in your career. And Vanessa, what's your, your sort of the key point that you're going to be making today? I think given the very experienced audience that we'll be talking with, it's interesting how much time we've spent all day and how much time we spend in our jobs day to day talking to the lawyers about their brand or about the firm brand or both or the client's brand, but not thinking about our own personal brand. It's an incredible network that we have. How we present ourselves within that network, the knowledge that can be generated within that sector, um, the networking opportunities. We're all doing these as a matter of course, but often without purpose or planning. Yeah. And I think we should be applying the same thought process that we apply to our partners and to the lawyers that we work with to ourselves as as well in terms of our own personal brand. So I mean, I mentioned at the start, and, and you've recognized it too, there's a— there is a recognition, relatively recent, um, I, I guess, about the underexploited or untapped asset that is the people inside the firm, right? As you say, Vanessa, people have always networked and what have you, right? But, but building your personal brand means something different now. You know, there are more opportunities to do it, um, you know, particularly using channels like LinkedIn and what have you. Some people in some firms are really good at that and others are not so good at it. And I don't mean that in terms of being particularly creative about it. Some people just don't want to do it, right, um, for various reasons. I wonder, will you be exploring some of the challenges and the reasons why some people are better at this than of that is and what people across the industry can learn from that. Oh, absolutely, because I think it's a key thing to look at the tools that you need, but like you say, it's those challenges that arise from, um, that prevent us from having the time to work on our personal brand and to do that. And it's that thing of having time constraints, that fear of self-promotion, you know, you have to strike that balance between am I bragging a bit too much about this now, or am I providing value and offering good value to people. And you always want to be authentic as well, and I think that's the key as well, maintaining that authenticity about it. So yeah, as long as with the tools, I think we definitely want to be touching upon those challenges that prevent us from focusing on that. We do a lot of work with professional services firms, and obviously many of them are partnerships. Yeah, and I think the partnership dimension adds a particular kind of challenge, you know, it's their business and, you know, lots of partners have got where they've got to by, you know, being opinionated and what have you. Vanessa, from a comms point of view, I wonder what challenges that in particular presents. How do you align what, you know, an expert knowledgeable partner perhaps wants to be building their personal brand around versus the overall marketing and comms strategy that's been devised and developed for the firm? I think two things. One, ensure that everybody's aligned in terms of the overall big picture, in terms of where the firm is heading and everything that we're trying to achieve as a global partnership, as a global marketing team, in order that we're not doing 800 different things in 45 different markets. And lots of different messaging. So one is that everyone's aligned, um, but the other part is, as Shirley says, authenticity. So I think it becomes transparent very quickly if an interaction is not authentic. And by an interaction, I think there's a conversation to be had about that too. I think personal brand can often be boxed into a LinkedIn profile, uh, or what a pitch document might look like, but obviously it's much It's every interaction that we have with our own team, with the management team, up, down, out in the market, with journalists, with our own network at the Legal Marketing Association. It's every interaction that people have with you and ensuring that's consistent. So having an extremely polished LinkedIn profile that's very planned. Yeah, it is one thing, but if the experience in person with someone is entirely different, that's going to appear pretty inauthentic very quickly. So it's consistency and authenticity, really, more than anything, whether we're talking about the lawyers and their personal brand or yourself in your own role within marketing and BD. Yeah, one of the things we observe is that, you know, you draw a generational line. There are some people— let's put a blunt label on it— who tend to be younger, and they're are much more comfortable with the idea of self-promotion, right, sharing, etc. And then there are those that tend to be typically a little bit older for whom it's, you know, more of a struggle because it's just— they just don't have that muscle in the same way. So that's one kind of consideration. The other one, Shirley, you spoke about the time constraint, you know, the, you know, building any kind of brand, as we all know, is partly about consistency and authenticity and all the rest of it, but it's also about being visible, and it's about doing that, you know, in multiple places and all the rest of it. So I'm interested in any advice or thoughts you have around how you specifically tackle those two challenges of how you get people for whom this is not a natural activity How you make that, you know, operation— in operational terms, how you make that easy. And the flip side is how you support people to show up more often so that they are, as I say, visible to the people they want to build their personal brand with. I don't know, you know, whoever wants to take it. I mean, I suppose we could both feed in on that, but I think mainly it's about breaking it down into smaller bite bite-sized chunks. I think it can be really daunting to think of it as this big task that has to be challenged straight away. You know, 10-minute exercises in your— and changes in your processes of how you do things can make a massive difference and a huge difference to how and the impact that you have. So I think once you break it down into smaller actionable chunks, that makes it less daunting, it makes it a lot easier. Also, I think it's just about trying to stay consistent. Your personal brand isn't something that you sort of, um, cultivate and then that's it, you tie it up in a bow and it's done. It's ever evolving as you go through your career, as you go through different changes and stages in your career, um, and which aligns with where you're at in your life as a whole. It will change. So it's ever evolving and it's something you have to keep going back to and referring to, um, and it will, it will grow with you as you grow through your career, I think. Yeah, I agree, and I think lean into what you're comfortable with. So some people are more comfortable with online networking, will force themselves to do some of the more in-person networking too, but they might pair up with someone for that side of things and try things differently in the way that work for them. But they might lean into something that's much more of a skill set for them. For me, I came from a PR background. It was all about networking with journalists 20 years ago, not so much now. They don't get out from behind their desks, but that's, that's my stomping ground. That's where I started. I'm not one for posting on LinkedIn. I will do it. It's part of the process of building your personal brand, but I'm much more selective in what I do there. The in-person networking part for me, I find a lot easier. I enjoy that a lot more. I've made some brilliant connections, shared a lot of a lot of knowledge with people and received a lot of knowledge as well. So I think it's leaning into what is your skill set as well and meeting others in similar positions too, at similar levels. You know, even listening to some of the sessions this afternoon, I think Leslie is a COO, and the minute she got that role, she sought out other COOs to network with and find out more about the role and how do they set up their function and what are the challenges for them. So honestly, whether you're an advisor or a COO, it sounds as though we, we can all benefit from that network. Yeah. And leveraging that in whichever way suits you and comes natural to you. Um, I think you've both at various points in this conversation used the word authenticity. Now, believe it or not, I've heard stories that sometimes people are not wholly responsible for the content that they put out in their, in their own name, Right. Have you seen a sort of a move away from that kind of done-for-you approach, you know, within your firms? Because if it's not your voice and your content, is it truly authentic? I think I've seen a mix, and I don't think seeking support in some of those areas is something to be dismissed so easily, to say that's inauthentic. I think it'd be incredibly rare for someone to have things created for them that they've never seen and that are posted for them, for example. There's always a layer of review, personalization, contribution to those. But to have that support from legal, legal marketing experts who've seen what works well, what doesn't work well, what's resonating, I don't think that should be dismissed necessarily. Someone's never reviewing that or seeing it, that of course becomes pretty inauthentic pretty quickly. And as I said before, you start to meet someone in person, that becomes clear very soon. But I think leveraging experts around you to advise on what's working well— and things are changing pretty quickly. You know, people use a lot of video on LinkedIn now. That only 2 to 3 years ago, that was not a, not a thing. It wasn't possible. No, it's gone very quickly from sharing updates on projects that you've done to very personal updates, videos, photographs, the like, depending on what's right for you. But seeing what's changing and evolving and what's working well and getting the advice on that, I think, should be applauded, not dismissed. Yeah, on that point, you're right about video and Whenever you look at your LinkedIn newsfeed now, there's an absolute tsunami of people talking into their phones, you know, what have you. I guess the reason that this is on the agenda for this conference is that it's a thing, you know, personal branding, you know, evangelists inside the firm, you know, employees as creators or influencers, EGC, partner-generated content, whatever you want to call it. Is definitely a thing. So if everybody's doing it, how do you— how do we find a way to be distinctive or stand out in the market? Again, I think it has to be personal to you. Find your story, your values, your niche, what it is you want to be known for. But going back to Shelley's point right at the start, that might evolve. That doesn't mean that's your personal brand and that's what you have to push now for the next 2 to 3 years. That might change depending on what role you're in, what practice you're pushing, what level you're at. I became CCO a year and a half ago, and I feel as though I've had to evolve all over again in terms of who I'm networking with, how I want to present in meetings, who I report to now has had quite an impact on my internal relationships and my external relationships. And so I've evolved my own personal brand just in the last 18 months. So I think find the story you want to tell and make it very personal, would be. Absolutely, and to go back again to, I know we've said it several times, but it's that authenticity. You know, if you're putting that forward, then I think that will naturally resonate, it will naturally stand out. And also about going a layer further, don't just show, you have to tell as well, you know, not just what, but how and why, and, you know, really drill down into that. And I think that's what will set you apart. Well, you both touched on this, and I did want to ask this question. Are you having to model behaviors inside your firms in order to speak with credibility to the, you know, to the partners and demonstrate that this is what they should be doing? Are you having to kind of, you know, take your own medicine? Not necessarily. I think the I think it would be quite hard for me to advise on channels such as LinkedIn if I had never been on and I never use it, of course. But I don't think I have to be self-promoting on LinkedIn every day in order to provide good advice to our lawyers or to legal marketers in a session today. So, um, as long as you're observing what's happening across the legal market but also in other sectors, bringing in examples of what's happening in other sectors, whether they're competitors to you or not, being creative, keeping up with what's happening in the market. Lawyers are competitive, so if you also share what some of their competitors are doing, I think that can be very compelling. I don't think so. I just think you need to be up to speed on what's resonating, what's not, and best advice on which channels to use. But great, I don't think you have to be a prime example of LinkedIn. No, absolutely not. I don't think so. You don't necessarily have to lead by example. But I think you can have that clout with, as you say, having the experience to say this is what's happening, keeping on top of the trends, being topical, and absolutely what Vanessa said, being creative. I think that's enough. Great. Well, look, I'm very conscious you've got a panel to get to, so I've only got one final question for you, and that is, when I read the synopsis for your session, it really made me chuckle because there's a line in there about we all, we always tend to see the same faces on panel kind of, you know, platforms or in the trade media or whatever. And I thought, that's so true. It's so true in every sector, right? You know, there's people that just get it and nail it and are good at it, and some of them become a bit overexposed. And there's others who, when you get to meet them, you think, you've got so much to tell, right? You know, why are you not out there? What's the one piece of advice you're going to be giving people about how they can be more of that first kind of person? And you less of a second one? Part of it is to, I think, the difference between that kind of person and the second type, I mean, you have to put yourself forward, you have to put yourself out there. I'm definitely a personal example of that myself, you know, it is easy to shy away and I think sometimes as much as you have to play to your strengths as Vanessa spoke about earlier, you do have to sometimes lean into something new and give yourself that opportunity. You have to start somewhere, has to be a first time. Very true. Agree. Yeah, I mean, doing this podcast and that panel shortly is my worst nightmare, but I forced myself to do that, so I'm a good example of pushing yourself in directions that aren't necessarily your comfort zone. Equally, you should feel very comfortable with doing what works well for you as well. There are many, many different ways of developing your brand, and if being on a panel at the LMA or or posting on LinkedIn every day is not natural for you, then that's not the right outlet for you. You should challenge yourself, but equally you should be pushing yourself in a direction that's completely not your wheelhouse, feels completely unnatural, because that will become really clear very quickly. Great. Well, look, hopefully this hasn't been too painful, and hopefully it's given you a good warm-up for the session. So Shirley and Vanessa, thanks very much for your time. Hello and welcome to the final podcast discussion of the day here at the first Legal Marketing Association European Conference. So I'm now joined by Heather Vergama, Chief Marketing Officer at Walker's, and we've also got Rhea Blakely Glover, Global Head of Business Development and Sales at Bird Bird, And finally, we've got Mike Bezek, Business Development, Marketing, and Communications Director at Taylor Wessing. So your session this afternoon, the session that you chaired this afternoon, Heather, is on a mission-critical topic for all firms, and it's about leveraging data for growth in legal business development and marketing. And in the synopsis for your session, I thought there's a really interesting tension that, you know, the— and that is that we've got more access to— there's a proliferation of data, you know, you can access more than ever before, but rather than making things better or necessarily easier, certainly for now or initially, that seems to make it more difficult. So And maybe Heather, could you just sort of kick off and maybe just give us an overview of the session? Yeah, I mean, it's a real paradox, isn't it, that the more data you have access to, the harder it gets to make decisions. And I think some of the challenges that we see within firms right across the industry, probably not unique, is, you know, there is a lot of data. It's often quite siloed in different systems which aren't stitched together. Some of those systems are internal, some of those are external. The data is perhaps not structured in a guise that you would be able to use it in. And also I find sometimes the discipline with which people have input data into systems where it's requiring a human entry has perhaps not been there. And so is it really reliable? You know, so you've got all of that in one side, and on the other side trying to understand which data is actually going to be helpful to provide direction, provide input, help you to make those decisions, because there's so much of it. So you've got to find a way to try and clear some of that noise and distraction away. And when we're talking about data as a kind of a broad concept, I mean, it is literally a broad concept. What are we specifically talking about here? Are you talking about CRM databases? Are you talking about lead gen, what kind of data sources are we talking about? Well, I think, you know, being a CMO or anyone in marketing and business development, it's all of that. It's CRM, it's financial data, it's external market research, it might be, you know, data coming in from client listening programs. It's being able to bring all of that together to build really a full picture. Cool. So Mike and Rhea, I suppose it makes sense to start with a fairly obvious question. You know, what does data mean within your firm and what does data-driven as a support or a driver of business growth, how does that play out in practice? I don't know who wants to take this first, Mike. Yeah, the data challenge that we just talked about is one facing all law firms. You know, all law firms are chasing growth. And we all want to use data to give us an edge, to give us that insight, to give us that opportunity, that angle that we can then pursue. And as Heather was saying, most of our data is pretty unstructured. Many firms have data that's in poor quality, and we're all adopting and investing in technologies that are reliant on the data, but actually amplifying the inconsistencies in our data before they're actually giving us the the solutions and the opportunities that we're desperately looking for. And I think that's a frustration that many of us face and feel, and certainly colleagues, stakeholders, people in our businesses are frustrated because we know that that competitive advantage and opportunity is there if we can just harness the data. But it's almost— you can't grab it because it's just you know, a hair's breadth away from actually, you know, getting your fingertips on it. Mixing my metaphors there. But, you know, but I think the opportunity there is, you know, I was just talking on the panel and I think many firms like ours have been very successful with attitude and anecdotes as a way to inform decision-making. And actually, if we can accelerate growth using data to give us that competitive advantage, that's what we're all looking for. And so that's why we're all investing in, you know, improving our data, capturing our data, structuring our data in a way that we can actually use it to give us insights that we can then turn into opportunity. And Ray, is your experience similar? And perhaps a follow-up question, you know, what specific things are you doing to try and get from the state that most firms are in to the one that all firms probably wish they were in? So I love what you said, Heather, about the paradox of data in our firms, because I think all of us on a daily basis experience someone saying to us, surely we know, right? And then you say to them, and how about you track the thing? No, I can't do that. So it's a, it's a really interesting paradox. And there's an expectation that we have data at our fingertips that is good and accurate for all things. But nobody wants to do the work required to, to input that. So the challenge for us is figuring out how do we take the data that doesn't require that human intervention? How do we inspire the behavioral change for the data that does require human intervention? For us, I think it's having focus. So we have a very focused 5-year strategy at Bird Bird. So we want to look at the data streams that actually help us achieve those— there's 5 pillars under that strategy. A lot of that, from my perspective, in terms of what my team should do, the BD function, is how can we use data to look at what has an impact? And using that data, we then inform what should we do more of and what should we do less of. Yeah. So for me, using the data that we can have access to that really answers that question is, is where I want to focus. And it is focused in is key because otherwise the universe, it's too big, it's too broad, and that's where you get stuck. So I think focusing on the impact and the objective. And the bit in between, right? You know, where you are now and the impact and objectives, which are outcomes that are really clear and what have you, that messy bit in the middle about how you get from there to there, does that come down to, you know, developing investing in, i.e., buying the right tools to do that for you? Is it a training challenge? How do you literally, on operational terms, get from A to B? I have a bad answer to say you have to do all of it. I know that's not terribly helpful, but it's true. I think you have to have that strategic objective, so you have to be very clear about why we're doing this and what are we trying to achieve. I think you have to have the inspirational spark of how we do it. And so for us, that's been the Activator program, which is based on the research by DCM Insights. And we have— we've done a lot of work with our partners to get them to see the why. So what sits behind Activator is that our market has changed and that we can still be very successful within that market, but we have to change and do things differently. And if you're willing to give us that time and attention and a little bit of change, the results are there. So where data comes in for us is that when we started doing the Activator program, we started measuring from before they even did it, so we could see where we were and see the opportunity for growth. And then as each cohort went through, we measured revenue generation, opportunities created, matters created, but also just how much time are you spending on BD. We would even measure How do you feel about BD? And then we would just put all of that data back out into the firm to say, this is what, if you give us this time, these are the results. And what was really exciting for us is there was a, you know, we saw some really big results right away, but as soon as we had enough people go through where those results were significant, they held steady, and then we just pushed them out to the business. We did a comms campaign just in everyone's face. Because we knew that once people saw that, that was going to be the thing that tipped that. I think for us, we have the guiding strategy, we have Activator as the motivator and the teaching and the training tool, and then we follow up with the data, and that for us is tech-enabled. We absolutely use Deal Cloud, we use IntraHive, we use Power BI, we use Copilot, and we use Excel. Let's not pretend we don't. We use all of that to make sure that we are tracking all of that and then can get get all of those great messages back out to the business. And I liken it to being a bit like an adventurer. You know, for us, we've had all this unstructured data. We didn't know what we could rely on and what we couldn't do. We knew what our objective was, or, you know, what the strategy was and what we wanted to try to understand. And so we set on our path using Power BI as a visualization tool to bring the data together and then found when we looked at it, that didn't make sense because that data inaccurate, so you remove that and then you try to find something else, or you perhaps go down a different path. And I think there is still, for firms, a lot of try it and see if it will work, and if it doesn't, you've got to make some decisions and go in a different direction, or really work on trying to get better discipline into entering the data. And I think Mike's got a fantastic story about how he succeeded in that, which I'm going to take away and try. Right, tell us, Mike. Well, no, I think, I think, yeah, The point that Ray was making, you've got strategy, you've got your tools, and it's the culture that makes the difference. You know, you've got to— the culture is absolutely critical. So you've got to get that buy-in, you've got to have sponsorship. You know, your exec team, your firm leadership has got to say this is really important. But you've got to demonstrate to the wider population the impact of why they're doing it. You know, you can't adds the admin burden of very busy people, very expensive people, people who are time poor. So passive capture, if you've got the tools to do that, absolutely perfect. But people have got to understand why they're doing it. So at Taylor Wessing, we are very keen on using data. We haven't got it cracked, but we're really keen to, to use data in a smart way to support decision making. But, you know, our data, our marketing data, our client data, you know, if it's not in our CRM system, which is our command center, you know, if it's not there, we say it doesn't exist. You know, if and when people are looking to make decisions, we always point them back to that platform, that tool. And then we, you know, to Raya's point, we celebrate the successes. We show how using that insight, using that data has enabled us to win a client opportunity, to enable us to break into a new revenue stream. So really celebrating the successes. So I think culture, strategy, tools, you know, celebrating the successes and then amplifying that and encouraging people because people are naturally competitive, but equally people want to be ambitious. Well, people are ambitious. So if you give them a tool that helps them get an edge, then they're going to adopt that. Yeah, these are all great examples, by the way. And they, in addition to sort of the tools and talent kind of question that sort of sits in the middle, your point about experimentation or trial and error being critical as a way to get into it. Nobody knows until you start doing it. And both of your points about, you know, reminded that if you want to change somebody's mind or behavior, don't turn up with a load of facts because they'll just dig in and trench. But I think the one exception to that is if you turn up with cold, hard kind of financial, you know, or business development facts, then people are going to say, okay, if it's working, I'm on board. You know, we need to win for any change. And the use of data is a change. You've got to win hearts and minds. So you've got to appeal to people's hearts. You've got to feel there's the incentive to change. Is the opportunity there? So, you know, but also, you know, certainly in law firms, people are trained to be very analytical. That's at their core. So actually winning the hearts you can do through success stories, through showcasing successes through role models, but actually to win the minds, it's those proof points that this has made an impact on profitability, on client relationships, on performance, on pipeline. But actually thinking about that hearts and minds and aiming at both is absolutely critical. One of the hardest things in our industry is you kind of have to get it right first go. So I think it's interesting, Heather, you were saying, oh, well, you know, we can try it and see if it works. But the problem in legal is we are really slow to adopt and we are even slower to change. So we don't have a huge window of trial and error, let's say, of is this working? We kind of have to know. And so I think for us, having those early adopter groups of a couple of key partners in the business and people in our team who really get it and are motivated and you want to kind of start with them, do all the trial and error and sometimes being a bit unafraid to say that didn't work, not or not for for us, right? Because as a, as an industry, we are just really bad at that, and that's key. So we've done a lot of that trial and error within our team, but it is being brave enough to say, actually, that hasn't worked, or it's not going to work, and pull back from it. And it's okay to try things and trying to build a safe environment to try things out and experiment, because otherwise we're never going to move forward. Well, because once we go out to the lawyers, we better be 100% behind it, right? We have to be— I think a lot of our internal influencing and sales skills come from trying to push these projects through because we have to be willing to go out into the business and explain 452 times to the skeptics of, "Why should I do this? It's not going to do anything. You don't get how it works." All of those different objections. So, we have to be so prepared to be like, "Oh, no, I'm all in on this," even if we're like, "Hmm, not sure." So, doing that testing first and not, you know, being afraid to pull back when it doesn't work work. And then when we believe in something, going for it, really, really going for it, and not being afraid to say to the lawyer, you know, you're doing it this way, you can keep doing it this way, but the market is moving ahead, your competitors are around, AI is coming on to play, there's so many things you can think about. So how about we just give it a go? Because if you try it this way and it works, you have a competitive advantage. Yeah. So there's a huge amount of that sort of influencing and convincing that we have to do. And it's really tricky because if you have— if you do all that but the underlying technology and data doesn't support it, you know, you lose your audience quite quickly in our field. You've mentioned— several of you have mentioned issues that are, if not unique to the legal sector, they're perhaps more pronounced or amplified in there. And a lot of that is to do with the partner structure and, you know, where the kind of the power base or the decision-making, the executive decision-making sets. And to go back to one of the early points you made, Heather, about the— one of the fundamental problems here is the unstructured nature of data or the siloed nature of it. Now, you know, inevitably we have to talk about artificial intelligence, right? In any podcast these days you have to. And in a sense, there's a solution to the unstructured data problem that the big platforms are developing. I think both Gemini already now has a version where you can plug it into your systems, and it will make sense of the unstructured data inside the organization. OpenAI last month launched a ChatGPT for business that will turn— you know, you apply an LLM to everything that exists within your firm. They've also got a product which records everything that happens in your business and then basically adds that to the database too. Now, the reason I say all that is that, in a sense, notwithstanding the, you know, the, the obvious, um, downsides of that, but there's a solution to unstructured data in silos, etc. I'll get to the point. There's obviously a privacy concern there, and obviously I imagine that is particularly acute within legal. So are you having to build everything from scratch in order to kind of, you know, avoid that issue, or are you managing to integrate a combination of buy and build? I mean, I think at a firm level, and you can perhaps talk more practically, but at firm level, there's strategic decisions that need to be made. I mean, law firms are, you know, lawyers are naturally more risk-averse. There is this whole, you know, lawyer-client privilege around data. There is a real resistance by clients, or there was, I think it's changing now, about not wanting their data used anywhere near an AI tool, which made the in-house risk teams super, super risk-averse in terms of allowing AI into firms. Now there are tools like Harvey, Microsoft Copilot, which, you know, sit within an organization, and I think we'll see in the next year a lot of firms move very quickly because the industry's is managing to work its way through that. But it is already an industry which is quite slow to adopt new technology and new approaches, and then bringing something like that, which just adds more of a challenge. But I do feel like in the last 6 months most firms have progressed, and you've probably got some real examples. Yeah, to be clear, I'm super excited about AI, you know, as a marketeer. It's great in terms of, you know, it's going to enable us to, you know, personalization, really enable us to access clients in a much smarter, more sophisticated way. You know, as a law firm, you know, it's a knowledge business. What a great opportunity for us to kind of reduce routine tasks and to enable people to focus on tasks where they're really adding value rather than doing high-volume, you know, monotonous repeat exercise. So huge opportunity for law firms. And actually, as a revenue stream, you know, there's so much regulation around AI, there's so much investment into AI, there's industry players looking to invest in, you know, entrepreneur-backed businesses who've got some great ideas. So for law firms, it's fabulous because there's huge investment, huge areas of regulation. Disputes will follow, no doubt, in the future. And all the while, it's absolutely disrupting the way that we serve our clients, undertake our service that we provide. We know the business of law is being fundamentally transformed. And then to be a marketeer in that environment as well, where it's again, it's disrupting how we go about our role. It's a really, really interesting time to be in roles like ours in law firms. And we obviously, we do have to be careful, right? So to your point, I think most firms started out by trying to build some version of their own or using tools that can live in that internal universe for exactly that reason. Yeah. Even within that, it's complex because we have some clients who are like, yeah, go for it. This is great for us. And others who are like, nope, nothing. We're seeing fewer of the clients who say don't use AI on anything. And that is both for how we actually do the legal work, but also for how we manage their accounts and the business side as well. So that's really interesting. But I think the trend will be to clients accepting that we do it as long as there's guardrails in place. We're starting to see interesting things happen. I mean, it was just this week we saw where our content goes out. So things go on our website and a lot of the content scrapers, so your Bloomberg's, Lexologies, Thomson Reuters want to use AI to put lots of that together. And we are coming back saying, well, actually, no, because we When it lives on our website, that is the— our firm stands behind it. But if it gets mashed in with a bunch of other firms and then put out, and it could be attributable, but as a regulated industry, we need to be careful about that. So it's really interesting intellectually. I think I see it like you, as I see opportunity. So on the other hand, that's the type of legal work we also like to get stuck into, is helping our clients figure out customer contracts and how AI sits in all of that. That. So I think if we can embrace it cautiously, you have to have people that understand it and who can understand it in each of our business services functions, as well as people who understand the applications for our legal work. But I'm, I'm like you, I look at— so I was a lawyer, and I was a lawyer before any of this came in, and I stopped being a lawyer because I spent years of my life sat in a room doing document review. That just isn't something that a human would do anymore, and I think that's amazing And I think that that is a great change for the profession of being able to be a much more interesting, you know, less churn. It's better for the clients, right? They're not just gonna have 25 associates sat there clicking through documents, but actually being able to use your brain, interact with humans, and solve problems for clients. So, I look at it as something we absolutely need to embrace, but embrace with caution and make sure that we're doing it in a way that our clients feel they understand what we're doing, they feel empowered, that we're having really upfront conversations upfront and proactive conversations with them about. Well, I think I said before that this, this podcast usually talks about problems in B2B marketing, and, um, so it's no surprise that we chose this topic from the agenda today because there are so many— let's call them challenges, you know, we want to be kind of euphemistic about it— with this particular topic. However, it's quite clear that there's lots of activity happening across the sector to address that. And, and Rhea, your point about feeling optimistic about this, I think, is, is a good one. You know, at the moment, at the very least, there is cold comfort that nobody, I don't think, has really got this licked yet. In fact, our first session this morning, our first podcast session, was about a totally different subject, and yet the topic of data came up in terms of siloed, unstructured, quality, etc. So it's obviously, it's endemic across the business. Happily, there are some good ideas here about what businesses can do or start to do around a bit of that. And so if I could just end on a positive note, it'd be great to hear from each of you. What's the one piece of advice you'd give to somebody in a, you know, a peer in another firm who said, where do I start? What do I do? Mike, do you want to pick up? Yeah, I think the problem or the fear is the missed opportunity. I think, you know, we've kind of— you're talking to three optimists here. And so we've all seen the opportunity rather than the problem or the challenge. But I think if I was talking to someone who was starting on their journey of trying to harness their data to drive decision-making, it's having the tools to capture that data and then having the people who who can help interpret that data, visualize that data, and put the narrative around the data to enable people to use it in a way that helps their business achieve their strategy. Great. Ray? So I'm going to change slightly from how I answered this question in our panel, which I think was around focus so that you're not— Exactly. So that you're not overwhelmed. And actually, I was just thinking a little bit more about the stories that I shared about some team members of mine, so both on the lawyer side and on the BD side, who have just come up with these really cool creative uses of data. And so I guess a bit of advice I would have is invest in team members who get this and then empower them to be creative and take ownership of these projects. So we can't do or control everything, nor should we. And I think this area is just moving so quickly, we don't have all the answers and there's so much exciting and creativity happening within the team. And I think even like what we were just saying with the lawyer, sort of how AI is transforming the lawyer role, this is really fun and they feel more excited and invested, you know, coming up with, I had a team member come to me with this cool, hey, I found a way to use AI to help our content be more client-centric. Here's a few quick prompts that you can do to flip it from we're so great at this to, hey client, you need this. And the people struggle with that. So here I've created something, and he was so excited, and I'm excited because he came up with that on his own, and that we can replicate that across the business. So I would say, um, find team members who love this stuff and empower them. And last word to you, Heather. Well, I think I'm going to say, because those are two great examples, but tackle the hardest thing, which is the cultural change. And I think for senior leaders to be talking to leadership of the firm, help them to understand the power of the data that they have available and what could shift. You know, you can bring efficiencies, you can direct people's BD efforts, you can analyze performance and redirect resources to help those who are struggling and reward those high performers. So whatever it is that's going to capture the leadership's attention, to have them sponsor change, create a safe environment to be trying things and saying it's okay if it failed, we'll go in another direction, I think will change every organization. Well, it was always true, wasn't it, that change starts at the top, right? So yeah, that's a great note to leave on. Thank you very much, all of you.