Driving Community Impact as a CFO with Christopher Hollinger, CFO at Rethink Food

Christopher Hollinger: Foreign.

Rowan Tonkin: Welcome to the Next CFO, the podcast that picks the brains of top CFOs to learn the strategies, lessons and stories that have shaped CFO's career thus far. I'm Rowan Tonkin. I'm the CMO here at Planful. And uh, as you may have guessed, I'm actually a guest host today. Uh, I'm filling in for Matt Sledge. Uh, Matt's not here today, uh, because he out on paternity leave, his wife, uh, and he have just welcomed a lovely new baby. So congrats Matt, and uh, thanks for letting me take over. So Chris, welcome uh, to the show.

Christopher Hollinger: Thank you. Uh, my pleasure to be here.

Rowan Tonkin: So I know uh, you know, we're always excited to get into the, the topics of finance here, but, uh, you know, let's start with a few warm up questions. So, uh, I'd love to understand, uh, what's your favorite hobby?

Christopher Hollinger: So, my favorite hobby, I'm a big reader. I love to read science, uh, fiction, military, history, economics, and then, uh, I also love sports. I went to University of Alabama undergrad, Van built business school. So college sports is uh, a big thing. And you know, fully with the tournament just finishing up, I was very excited.

Rowan Tonkin: Awesome.

Christopher Hollinger: Not that we didn't win, but still, it was still fun.

Rowan Tonkin: Well, uh, it's always fun to uh, root on your team. It's something, uh, I've grown to love since, since I moved to the States is how passionate everyone is about their college. Um, what are you reading right now?

Christopher Hollinger: So I'm always reading a, uh, couple of different books. I'm um, reading the wars of Afghanistan. It's one of the ones like history of all the countries that have been involved in Afghanistan. So military history is one of my big ones. And I'm also reading a book on Napoleon, uh, specifically Waterloo. So I love military history.

Rowan Tonkin: Yeah, I can recommend, uh, a kind of uh, fiction, non fiction, um, ah, book which is called, uh, the Essex Dogs. Uh, it was great. It's about some, uh, Essex mercenaries that are involved in kind of the English French war, um, back in the day. So really, really interesting and written by a historian. So uh, it's kind of got that factual element to it which is really cool.

Christopher Hollinger: Yeah, just wrote that down. I'm always loving recommendations.

Rowan Tonkin: Yeah, no problems. Well, that's why I'm asking you, how do you, uh, aside from reading, how do you unwind after a tough day, uh, running the business.

Christopher Hollinger: So I like to, you know, kind of relax with the, with the wife. Um, you know, we do watch some tv, but uh, you know, and then just kind of talk, talk about things, catch up.

Rowan Tonkin: Yeah.

Christopher Hollinger: When it's warmer, I like playing golf, although I'm not that good. Our building has a golf similar, so I'll go down and hit there when it's not so nice weather. But yeah, I'd love to stay active in different things like that too.

Rowan Tonkin: Awesome. Awesome. Well, uh, uh, I'm heading down south myself, uh, to go and play some golf. So I'm excited for that. Um, but uh, yeah, I'm glad the warm weather's back so I can get back into it too.

Christopher Hollinger: Where are you going?

Rowan Tonkin: I'm, uh, actually going to as an Alabama, I'm going to Georgia. So uh, I'll be playing at the University of Georgia Golf Club, Georgia Golf and uh, and some other places down there. So. Really looking forward to it.

Christopher Hollinger: Yeah, they. That's nice. I haven't played golf on their campus, but they have a beautiful campus. I haven't been there for games, so. Yeah, we went that way.

Rowan Tonkin: So. All right, well, let's uh, let's get into the meat M and potatoes here. Um, you know, obviously you've gone from, from a Wall street background to now mission driven work, uh, advising C suites along the way. Can you walk us through that career journey? What was the moment or motivation that kind of pulled you or pushed you into rethink food?

Christopher Hollinger: Sure. So. So I grew up in a small town in Alabama and my, my parents instilled in me, you know, they always give back to the community in some, some way, in some f. So when I worked at Merrill ah, Finance department, I uh, actually used to volunteer with another nonprofit focused on food. Um, and so, you know, kind of got an understanding of you know, food as a first order need. Uh, people really need access to good, um, healthy food in order to, you know, to actualize themselves. And so you know, always had thought about, you know, kind of how can I do more. Like I said volunteer but you know, it's like always wanted to do more. And then uh, Covid came and I had left Merrill lynch at the time, but you know, Covid came and as you remember there were the food lines. There was a lot of food insecurity, a lot more awareness and everything. Food where I'm CFO now was recruiting for, uh, the CFO because exhibit some tremendous growth. A lot of people became much more aware of food security. They gave a lot of funding. The uh, board recognized they needed much, you know, a more uh, established a uh, senior financial leader to come in and lead the company. And it was a great opportunity for me to do more, do something particularly very trying time, but also use my financial skills for good. So it was kind of a meeting of the meeting in my mind and my interest and being able to do something important.

Rowan Tonkin: That's awesome. I love it when uh, your kind of purpose and your position end up getting a match. Uh, it's a wonderful thing. And so obviously going from, uh, the private sector into non profit leadership, what's been the biggest challenge or shift or adjustment that you've had to make?

Christopher Hollinger: Yeah, I would say that, you know, one of the biggest things is, you know, coming from large corporations, you know, everything's kind of siloed, everything is really structured. You have a lot of resources, uh, in nonprofit, you know, you don't have as many resources, uh, that slightly structure, we've built a lot more structure now. They've been here, processes, procedures, but you know, just being able to do more, being more creative. I think, you know, it really helps you in your career also. Working for a small organization, you get to see so many aspects of the business other than just, you know, finance department. And that really helps you, I think, to grow as a professional.

Rowan Tonkin: Awesome. And so the uh, the mission obviously of Rethink Food for those that don't know is centered on reducing food waste and fighting the food insecurity that you talked about. Um, obviously that creativity that you get to play is how does, uh, finance deliver that creativity and scaling the mission?

Christopher Hollinger: I think a big part of what we do is bringing a lot more rigor to the organization, uh, being some kind of thought leader. Because what I think is really important for finance is not just um, putting together financial reports, reporting on the numbers is about being a strategic partner and thought leader for the department heads. And so really helping work with department heads as well as, you know, the other members of senior leadership to understand what are the drivers of the business, uh, how do we, you know, increase our revenues, how do we increase our funding, how do we, how we cut costs to be more, uh, better stewards of the money that's entrusted with us. So really helping to, you know, kind of really help the business to think about how do you grow revenues, how do you cut costs so that you can have a lot more to be able to have greater impact.

Rowan Tonkin: And that, I mean that's not new in a Wall street sense. Right? Like, you know, uh, grow the top line, cut the bottom line. How does it differ, um, like truly differ in a nonprofit environment?

Christopher Hollinger: Yeah, I think that, you know, you know, for profit companies get a bad rap for this profit mentality. But, you know, and a lot of, you know, nonprofits, you know, you're mission driven. A lot of people who are, you know, drawn to work, you know, nonprofit, you know, really focus on mission as they will, as they should be. But that, you know, but one of the things that kind of gets lost sometime is that, you know, the more, you know, either revenue you grow or expenses you cut, that allow, that gives you so many more resources to be able to invest, to be able to grow, to be able to have more impact, uh, if you want. And so a lot of people, you know, because they don't come from that for profit or they'll have to as. As, uh, well versed within this background, you know, that's a hard thing sometimes to impart, uh, because, you know, business does get a bad rap sometimes, I think, you know, for profit businesses.

Rowan Tonkin: And so when you think about, you know, obviously ROI is. Is a different kind of, uh, term in a nonprofit stance. Right. You're looking for the. The impact, I guess.

Christopher Hollinger: Right?

Rowan Tonkin: Um, is that how you think of it?

Christopher Hollinger: Yeah, we think of it from an impact standpoint, you know, for us, you know, is how many meals that we are able to provide to communities, uh, to people that need those meals. One of the other big part of our components that makes us unique is that we, we actually, uh, invest money into restaurants, uh, and restaurants where they make meals that are distributed to community service organizations. So by making investments in those restaurants, in the communities where they're helping to feed, it also helps them to be able to hire people to grow their business, uh, and like I said, truly invest and build communities. So how many communities are we really helping to build, you know, through our investments, as well as the meals that we provide for people who are, you know, who need those meals. So those are some of the bigger metrics that we really look at. And then also we have a fleet of trucks, uh, our trucks pick up excess food. So how much food do we divert from landfills and then, you know, repurpose that food to be able to use to feed communities also.

Rowan Tonkin: So typically, you know, folks would be talking about shareholder value. Now you're probably talking about donor value or contributor, um, value. What does that look like in your financial statements that you're providing back to those key stakeholders?

Christopher Hollinger: So what we really focus on, like I said, you know, one is the meals we, we, uh, create the. The, um, dollars we invest in communities, the impact to those communities that is, um, you know, employment, uh, or Other metrics that we really, really track. And so, you know, and then, you know, just kind of, you know, those are the areas that, you know, to be honest, we're most focused on as far as, you know, metrics and things that we report on. And then also pounds of, you know, of food diverted from landfills that also translates into water savings. So we do have other metrics that we particularly use for our corporate donors that we're very interested in, you know, kind of their environmental impact.

Rowan Tonkin: And how does that translate to them for, you know, their kind of ESG impact for them as a maybe for a profit business that is doing good and kind of investing in yourselves? What does that look like on their side?

Christopher Hollinger: So, you know, a lot of corporations do have certain goals that they're trying to show that they're good stewards of their environment. Uh, and so how does that translate to waste that's diverted, like I said, from landfills that has a clothing that has a carbon impact, uh, water that's diverted, uh, uh, were not used in landfills also, uh, has an impact. So those are some of the things that, you know, their companies are really focused on measuring and being able to report on to their stakeholders. And you know, we do give them the opportunity to, um, you know, we give them the information because we do have a very robust data analytics department to be able to provide information for them to be able to use for their stakeholders also.

Rowan Tonkin: And so how do you think of, ah, this is, uh, I am going off script here for those that don't know. That's typically what I do. Um, so as you think about kind of, you know, having a robust data and analytics department, obviously that's a cost to the business in terms of, you know, that's money not spent on impact. But the flip side of that is that's also a way of leveraging the good that you're doing beyond share. All the good that you're doing to drive donorship and drive contribution. Is that how you, uh, start to analyze kind of different investments and priorities across the business is kind of, well, if we do this and invest in this, it's going to grow the top line versus cutting the bottom line?

Christopher Hollinger: Yeah, because uh, I guess we're unique in a certain way that we do look at different revenue sources. So for example, when I talk about being able to provide data analytics to corporations, we do have certain corporations that actually do pay us nominal fee to pick up their excess, you know, their excess food and then divert it from landfills. So for us, you know, this is investment in the data analytics. To your point of, you know, how does this help us to provide information that corporations would use and then they were willing to pay us, you know, a nominal fee, uh, to be able to not only take their access but also to provide them with the, with the data that they need to be able to report to their stakeholders. So we do look at everything, well, not everything, but a lot of things from the standpoint in that case, you know, for making investments, how does that help us to grow the top line similarly, you know, to every other business? You know, there are some investments we are making to, to cut costs, but that specifically, uh, you know, we are looking more to how, as they help us to grow the top line.

Rowan Tonkin: Yeah. Awesome.

Christopher Hollinger: And so I talk a lot of business, uh, for profit jargon for a non profit person. But you know, I think that's one of the things that makes me unique in my role and I think it's helped me be success and also our organization be successful.

Rowan Tonkin: So, uh, you know, going from this, you know, Wall street background, Merrill lynch into not profit, um, obviously has a lot of, you know, like personal kind of motivations behind that. If you were, uh, mentoring someone who wanted to go through that same same uh, leap or same jump to kind of get to that purpose, mission driven work, what would, uh, what would you share with them about your experience? Like what might be the surprises, what might be the similarities?

Christopher Hollinger: Talk about. I think, I think that, you know, one surprise is that, you know, when you come in, you know, particularly if you're coming for large corporations, you know, a lot of your, you know, you know, medium sized nonprofit probably aren't as structured as you would be looking or you're used to in a large corporation. You have to be, you know, you have to be a lot more nimble and flexible. You know, um, you have to be able to roll up your sleeves. You have to sometimes be involved in other departments, uh, pretty, you know, and get involved and really enjoy that. If you don't really enjoy that, you know, probably kind of difficult. So I would say that, you know, not being overly structured, um, open mind, being flexible and then, you know, things, you know, things change a lot in corporates, but it was very hard to when, for example, it's very hard to forecast in nonprofit, particularly when so much of your revenue comes from donations. Uh, generally if you're in a for profit organization, you know, when you have product or service and you can kind of, you know, model out things, he's got to know, you know, how Much cash is coming in. Uh, you can model out forecast a lot better. Uh, you have to be a lot more flexible, particularly from a forecasting standpoint, because, you know, you know, even though we have other revenue streams, a large part of our funding outcomes from donations.

Rowan Tonkin: And how does that change the way you think about long term planning? Obviously in a more unpredictable, volatile kind of income situation, situation, long term planning becomes a bit more difficult. So how do you, how do you think about that for the, for the company?

Christopher Hollinger: Yeah, so, so I think a lot of nonprofits, that's why you really want to build up a reserve. Because, you know, you know, there are ups and downs and then the, you know, kind of the, the cost that you're may change, you know, ah, a couple years or every other year. And so you want to have reserves in place so that you can still fund your organization over a period of time. So I think a big part of, you know, nonprofit work is, you know, one really being able to build reserves. Think about how to build reserves. Because there are, you know, there's, you know, rainy days that you really need to draw down. But then there are other times we need to build up, uh, and also just, you know, really being really. I think every organization has to stay as lean as possible, but you really need to ensure that, you know, everyone is being utilized to their greatest potential. Uh, it's very difficult to have people who aren't being fully utilized and nonprofit because, um, you just don't have that luxury in a lot of cases.

Rowan Tonkin: Yeah. And speaking about kind of the resourcing, uh, what has kind of, uh, been a point of difference or what have you learned about leading a nonprofit, um, mission driven, uh, organization versus, uh, the Wall street environment.

Christopher Hollinger: Yeah, I think you really need to lean into ensuring that people are really focused on the mission because at the end of the day you are a mission driven organization and you have to interact a lot with your funders as well as the recipients or whatever your mission is. And so you really want people who are really, uh, invested and can really represent the organization well, because I think that's one of the other things that I think everyone in a nonprofit generally represents the organization in some way or some place. Whereas particularly in corporate, you can be in your department and you're the back office or the front office and the two children don't mix. Whereas the nonprofit, there's really not as big of a delineation.

Rowan Tonkin: Interesting. So looking, uh, a little ahead, what's something that you wish kind of more of us understood about, know, the finance role in social impact work.

Christopher Hollinger: Uh, I think that, you know, to be honest, the accounting is very similar. Uh, there are some key fundamental differences. One, you know, uh, revenue recognition, uh, you recognize all of the grant, the year it's made. Um, you know, reserves. How do you account for reserves? Uh, discounting future, you know, future pledges. So there, there are some, some intricacies and some things that, you know, are really focused. Uh, you know, depending on the size of the organization, we're over the threshold. So we get audited every year. Uh, you know, and you know, clearly at Merrill we were audited, but I really didn't have a lot of access or exposure to that because, you know, it's such a large organization. But you know, in, um, you know, a smaller nonprofit, you know, you know, clearly we work with others, but you have to call on almost every part of the organization, uh, when we're doing that. So I think that the exposure that you get, regardless of what department you're in is, you know, is so much higher than what you would get at a larger organization or for a possible organization.

Rowan Tonkin: Do you find that motivations, um, are higher amongst team members to contribute? Um, you know, often, you know, the larger organization you get, the perception out there is that people become a little less motivated. Uh, I don't know if I truly agree with that. Um, but when you're in a mission driven organization, people are there for a reason. Right? And, uh, what do you find from, from that perspective?

Christopher Hollinger: I would say if, you know, if people are at the organization for the right reason, you know, there's, you know, there are people who, you know, aren't really in it for the mission. And so I think it's much more difficult for them to really stay engaged or be engaged. Um, you know, for me, one of the, you know, it's like I don't get to get out in the field as often, but when I do get to go to a, you know, food distribution site or one of our partner sites and see, you know, the people who are recipients, it's very touching and it really gives you motivation to really work harder and do things. And if you, and you know, if you're not motivated by that, it's very hard, I think, sometimes to stay engaged.

Rowan Tonkin: And so as you think about that and translating that motivation into the evolving role development world of finance, and I'd even ask about a little bit about AI here. How do you think about that kind of role of finance in contributing to the long term growth of Rethink Foods and How are you thinking about bringing AI and things to bear that can help either increase those revenues or decrease that bottom line?

Christopher Hollinger: Yeah, I think for me I'm really on a mission to automate as much as possible. Um, you know, clearly, you know, every. I think a lot of organizations, you know, you're a resource contain, restraining and so and then also, you know, just from the interest of your people, you know, accounting finance has historically been, you know, heavy, you know, kind of breath work, so to speak, and really focus on where can we automate as much as possible apar. Um, you know, financial system forecasting, modeling, where can you keep automated as much as possible? Where can you use AI to give you insights so that the people, our people spend more time actually with the business leaders, helping them to truly understand their business, helping them to understand their finances, helping them to make better decisions. So for me that's, that's the, that's the goal, that's the focus and that's what I'm really trying to add more automation, uh, more tools, you know, particularly to auditing tools so they will free up my people's time so they can spend more time on like some more higher margin value added activities.

Rowan Tonkin: Wow. Uh, it sounds very, very similar to most businesses. Uh, Chris, I'm not hearing anything that I wouldn't expect to hear from a typical cfo. So, um, as you're thinking about kind uh, of, you know, we talked a little bit before about advising someone. What advice would you give someone entering the nonprofit space in a, uh, finance, uh, maybe, uh, a CFO level, but also maybe in uh, more junior levels. Like what, what could you tell them from your experience?

Christopher Hollinger: Yeah, I would say that, you know, really go into it with a mindset of, you know, how can I really add value to the, to the business? Uh, how, you know, and to be honest, like I said, uh, you know, because I have, you know, I. Before I worked at Merrill, I was a consultant. After Merrill, I was a consultant for a while. So I, I think how do you add value to the business? How do I learn about the business and then, you know, how do I engage other people in the business? Particularly if you have a business background or a for profit business background and the majority of the people you're working with, you know, have a traditional nonprofit background. How can I really impart, uh, you know, sound business principles and practices to people who may or may not have had that experience before? Because I think, you know, particularly department heads and people who lead certain areas and particularly programs. So how do I come In. And I think if you come in with that mindset and think for that mindset, you will be very valuable to the organization. You help the organization tremendously. But then I also say take the time to get out of the office, out of finance, and really interact with the recipients of whatever your program, uh, is, uh, and kind of really live the mission also, because I think it's so much more rewarding or can be more rewarding than, you know, pushing papers or whatever you do in your day to day job.

Rowan Tonkin: Yeah. I mean, could you share any stories with us about uh, you know, when you've gotten out of the office and what you've learned or experienced that has had a major impact on you and your contributions? Sure.

Christopher Hollinger: I will say that, you know, just being there, you know, like I said, you know, because we deal with food and we understand how food can transform persons. You know, it is transformative. Um, you know, it's. To me it's very hard to, you know, get a job, work, particularly if you're concerned about your family. So just being, you know, it's, you know, for example, some of our food distribution sites, uh, partners, uh, churches just being there, talking to the people who are recipients, uh, some people who are working but you know, um, you know that they're not m. You know, you know, New York is a very expensive city. So you know, being able to have, you know, that meal given to them and they can share some of that with their family, you know, it does help them to stretch their budget. Uh, it does help them to, you know, to continue to improve themselves. And just hearing those stories and understand that, you know, uh, a lot of people, you know, are really hard workers. But uh, you know, like I said, New York's an expensive city to live and you know, just giving that helping hand or being able to receive that helping hand is very transformative people's lives.

Rowan Tonkin: And if, uh, any of our listeners, uh, are listening, how could they get involved, um, you know, in, in any of the work that you do?

Christopher Hollinger: Sure. So, you know, we, you know, uh, you can always donate to us, of course, but you know, if you don't, if you don't, you know. But also we have a Community Kitchen on 116 West Houston here in uh, in New, uh, York City. Uh, we always love to have volunteers. Uh, we have the community kitchen. That's where our, you know, our excess food is brought unload. Uh, it. We have volunteers who help sort things, who help cut vegetables, we help make meals. Uh, and then we also have an event center in the front, if people ever want to host events, you know, can definitely host that also for nominal fee, of course. And then, you know, so, uh, there are plenty of ways to help us. And also, you know, if you want to volunteer with any of our organizations we support, uh, we can facilitate that also.

Rowan Tonkin: Awesome. And, uh, you know, I think, um, you know, we. We typically have listeners that are, you know, maybe not at the CFO level already. Uh, if you could impart some of your advice from your experiences in both for profit and not for profit, what would. What advice would you give an aspiring cfo?

Christopher Hollinger: So I would say. So just to give you a little bit about my fourth background. So, like, I think I mentioned where Alabama. Um, but my first job out of college was as a bank examiner with comptroller currency. I worked in consulting, but then realized I wanted to be a cfo. So I was like, how do I do that? So I joined Merrill lynch in the internal financial department. And I was fortunate in the sense that I was able to move around in different areas. So the first thing I would say that one actually stepping back a little more. When I was an undergrad, one of the best advice, um, doctors, uh, and Palo, who was my finance source at gaming, was, finance is great, but take as much accounting as you can, because accounting is a language of business. So first thing I would say, learn as much accounting as you can. Then if you can, get an organization where you can work in different departments, where you can see every aspect of cfo, controllership, fp, and a, uh, treasury competitor, uh, analysis. You know, if you can do that, I think it's a great experience, great training ground. So I would say, you know, definitely try to figure out what jobs, what areas you can to get exposure to the great, you know, all the major aspects. But also, you know, I. I think one of the things that, you know, a controller is different from a cfo, and you really do need to do something to gain a strategic mindset. For me, it was being consultant. When I was at Ernst Young, I worked in restructuring reorganizations. I worked with companies in financial distress. So you look, you deal with a lot of strategic issues. There's. So I think, you know, also think about how can you get that strategic mindset because you really are a true partner with the CEO and how do you really provide value to them?

Rowan Tonkin: That's great advice. Thank you, Chris. I really appreciate it. Um, and folks, uh, that's going to be a wrap here on, uh, today's episode of the Next cfo. Thank you for, uh, letting me host today, uh, as a stopgap for Matt. Chris, you've been amazing. I really appreciate it. Uh, and uh, for those listening again, Rethink Foods is the, uh, organization for Chris. And uh, please go and figure out how you can help. It's a great mission driven organization and uh, really appreciate you listening.

Christopher Hollinger: Well, thank you. Really enjoyed it.

Rowan Tonkin: Thanks, Chris. M.