The Human Edge in an AI World With Phoebe Bishop

Welcome to the Level up podcast where finance leaders share real stories, insights and connections that move them forward. Tune in to learn, sharpen your edge, and level up together. All right, everyone, Nick Horako here, host of the newly reimagined Level up and founder and CEO of CFO Alliance. I have the pleasure of bringing you this. Not another boring podcast, I promise you that. This is Level up, where the most forward thinking finance leaders gather with me on a routine basis. People not only from our CFO alliance community, but from the broader world in front of us. And what a crazy world it is. I get to gather with them and get them to share with you what it truly takes to lead in this place that we're all navigating through, doing our best, I call it. Each episode, I get to sit down with someone who promises all of us that they're going to share what it takes to redefine what leadership looks like. Step up, lean in. Level Up, I guess we'll call it. Hence the name. These are not ever, ever in our history and especially today with my guest Theory Driven interviews. I don't think she's ever done theory in her life. I mean, I think that may be impossible for her. They're raw, they're real, and they're packed with advice, insights, and actionable, I guess I'll call it counsel that you can use. And you know what, there's a really cool list here of past episodes that I really would love for you to listen to as well. On top of this one, you'll get to hear from power players like Andrew Platt, Roland, Daniel Nelson and Valerie Martin. Visionaries too. Aaron Wilkins, Tracy Williams, people I'm so proud to call friends. And you're about to meet another amazing leader, somebody navigating change and challenge. I am joined today by Phoebe Bishop. She doesn't just sit in what we'll call a CFO seat. She's operating across multiple companies where capital risk execution collide. I mean, collide in real time, I guess we'll call it. She's one of those leaders who sees, how do I put it? She's around the corner where she has to be constantly in the middle of building, fixing, deciding yay, nay, here we go. And in the moment. And that's what I love about it as well. You're going to hear from Phoebe in just a moment and we're going to get to hear how she got to, where she got to and more importantly, where she's going to take us and where you can take yourself. That's what I love because I got a chance to spend time with her in Tampa and she just gave it her all and gave so much to others. So you're going to hear from her in just a moment. I would be remiss if I didn't tell you that LevelUp is brought to you by our partner, Oracle Netsuite. The number one Cloud ERP trusted by thousands of high growth finance led companies around the world. Netsuite, especially in this day and age, gives finance leaders and their teams real visibility, automation and control across their financials, across operations and planning so that they can lead with confidence and with scale, with speed, which in this day and age is really needed. Oracle NetSuite has been our global partner for some time, especially helpful to us as we navigate all of this change, supporting our shared mission of empowering our finance leaders to drive strategy, to build resilient teams and to deliver next level impact. So if you're serious about building a modern finance function that keeps pace with your business, AI is at the center of where you want to take and really center the business strategy. Not just your finance operations and team, but the business that operating NetSuite is your platform. Learn more@netsuite.com or just connect with the members here at the CFO Alliance. So let me dive right in. I promise you always that I write my own introductions of our members and like I said, I got to spend a couple hours with Phoebe and I'm going to get to spend more time with her when I get back to Tampa again in the coming weeks. But I in the two hours that I got to spend with her and in some follow up and in doing a deeper dive into her background, I'm going to share with you what I feel. I mentioned to you that she's operating across multiple businesses where things move fast and are not always clean. I got that from her. Where decisions have consequences. And that may sound like, yeah, that's everybody, but when you're playing with capital and you've got risk and you've got growth and you're in the middle of it all, you've got two options as a finance leader in that seat. You can play like observer, observer, or you could really throw yourself in the middle of it all. And that ladder is Phoebe. Okay? Because what I respect is that she's comfortable saying, listen, I understand gray area, but we're not going to stall. There's no perfect data, there's no perfect alignment, but decisions have to get made. So that's where we are right now as finance leaders. But not everyone knows how to operate there. But it's my job as a finance leader to help you and help us. Do not just say. Not just think, but do. So this is going to be a fun one because Phoebe's going to kind of give us the story about how she got there. Because you don't just wake up and execute that way. And in this day and age, you can't just wake up, execute that way, and stay that way. You got to invest, and you got to have a framework for it. So I don't know, Phoebe, if I set the stage right, but welcome to level up. But that's what I got from you. That's what I'm getting from you, and I hope that's what you're going to give us. Welcome. Yes. Well, we'll see. I definitely. So my. My. My key phrase is always judgment and ambiguity. Right? So that's. That's our job. That is ultimately our job. So definitely thrive in chaos. We break the mold, though, with our guests, and you fit them all because you did not. Like, let's start from the beginning. Okay. Yeah. You didn't wake up and you're like, hey, I am the prototype to be sitting in this seat and, you know, in the venture space and have this view of all of this, these companies. And look at me, the prototype for cfo. No way. Absolutely not. No. My background, actually undergrad was art history. I was in art history and fine arts undergrad and had zero interest in math or anything like that. You know, my family's still amazed that I have anything to do with this field. But, you know, I. I kind of hit that. You know, you hit that grad school point where it's like, oh, you know, I've got to commit. And I knew. I just never. I just didn't have the interest to be a professor, curator, any. Anything along those lines. And I just went and I actually just went and got a job and got a job with a small graphic design company and as an office manager, you know, just to. To get in there. And I just. I just saw a business being run poorly and. And they know what bad looks like, and this is it. So. Well, and it's, you know, so I kind of like, hey, well, let me help out here. Let me help. And I found that I actually really had an interest in it and a passion for it, and so I ended up going, getting, you know, I have to, like, you got to play by the rules, right? So I went and knocked out a master's in finance because it's like I got, I got to have some kind of cred. Right. But I just jumped into it and I've done some different industries. I've been in construction, did some of that and then ended up back here at RO Brady where I've been for just shy of 20 years. And, you know, production design, prototyping, engineering, all the stuff that I love. And so just a perfect home for me and definitely working with creatives. It's a different experience. You know, you can't necessarily put in the rules that you think you can put in and you kind of control the chaos is what I operate under. Yeah, I mean, look, this, I, I bet it has, but you've, I, I also see you as someone that is constantly willing to be investing in yourself and in others to say, listen, there's no such thing as static, not only in ourselves, but in our business and in, in the environment and the ecosystem we're a part of. And, and that means that you're going to get it right Sometimes you're going to get it wrong. Sometimes you're going to get it wrong a lot of times. Talk to me about that. And I feel like that's the hard part in finance because we're paired up with visionaries and entrepreneurs and risk takers and we have to be both the opportunity side and the risk mitigator side to it. And that's not easy for a lot of us. Talk to me about getting it right and getting it wrong. I think what's interesting is, so we're fed a lot of kind of mainstream business advice, right? As CFOs, as CEOs, as everyone in these levels, we're fed a lot of this that is really geared towards 1% of the companies out there. 99% of the US companies are 10 million and under. They're small businesses with small business problems. Like we, we can't just, you know, take the business book and apply it and, and it all makes sense. You, you can't operate that way. You have to be in the trenches. You have to know what's going on in your business. You can't hide behind data, something we always talk about. So I think the roles are really shifting for CFOs. I think CFOs are picking up a lot more of what would traditionally be thought of as a CEO role. There's this strategic blending, there's partnerships. It's really shifting and I think AI is helping us with some of that. Where, as where before we were kind of joking about beforehand, you had to Your typical CFO role, right, it was reporting, compliance, risk management, fpa. These are the boxes you have to check box. Yeah, this, this is where you live. This is your swim lane. Stay in your swim lane. And you know, you got to have your 10, 15 years experience, you know, you got to have your CPA, you got to be from the big four. All this crap that has been, you know, put down and, and a lot of that still applies for those 1%, you know, when you have really large enterprise companies. But I think with the AI tools that are out there now, someone who doesn't necessarily have that can do a lot of that analysis now. So where the importance is, is what do you do with that data? You know, that's great, that's great that you can spit all these facts at me. Go apply it. How is that going to apply to your engineering team? How is that going to make your payroll? How are you going to, you know, get that next building? You know, how are you going to apply that to your contracts? So that's where you kind of have to get out from behind your, your safe little square, you know, and, and get out there and, and, and get really involved in these businesses. And I think, this is where I think small businesses don't get spoken to. Like they, they, they're not given the advice that they need. You know, they're given that you're, they're getting advice that doesn apply to them. So I try when I work with startups through Robbery Capital or through sgv, I'm going to give you real advice. I'm going to, this is what you have to do for your insurance. This is how you actually deal with setting up entities. This is, you know, I, you know, netsuite's awesome. Love it. You know, you don't necessarily go, need to go spend that money that you don't have, go start equipment, go get, make, make money, focus. Make it so you make the money so you have to graduate. Yes, yes, exactly. And I, I think in our, in our current world, you know, with Shark Tank and all this stuff, you know, everyone, everyone thinks that all businesses are that 1%, right? All they, they all have these amazing scalability and you know, they're getting, you know, 30, 40, $50 million in funding and that's just not the reality. So we need to, we better. And I think there are some fractional CFOs out there that do that and, and, and do that part well. There are some that, you know, come in with that 1% mentality because I've I've seen the aftermath of that. Yeah, I think it's, it's tough, it's tough for us right now because it, it really is shifting to, to a more strategic role. And you're seeing it, I mean, you're seeing like Harvard, Columbia, Wharton, they're all pushing out strategic cfo, you know, programs. It is going that way, which I think is awesome. And it's going to open the door for a lot of really strategic thinkers that may not have gotten those positions before. So it's exciting to me. So, you know, I want to, I want, you know, I just had a group of, you know, we gather our finance leaders together in small groups. You were part of one of those. To create that intimacy and safeguards, safe place for dialogue. And I just had a group gathered in New York on Wednesday night. And it's a diverse group. Right. I have finance leader from a well funded, established nonprofit, a CFO from a publicly traded enterprise that is in a healthy position. We won't call it robust, but healthy. So he doesn't have the pressure of quarterly earnings that gone awry. But healthy we'll call it. Right. I had a well funded venture backed. I just throw the word I in there. Okay, so he's burning cash. Right. I had in being pushed to do so. I had a privately held finance leader from a privately held. That is two years into having taken a toddler. Privately held. And now they're acting like a teenager. Okay. And so you have this eclectic group, but there was such a heaviness in the room around this maturing of the role that still feels like a struggle, I don't know, individually and collectively for everyone there. And none felt threatened, but none felt comfortable. And I'm still trying to unpack maybe the top factors for all of that. I know as human beings, we all have our own temperatures around embracing change and adapting and adopting to it. So let's take that out and just say, oh, it's a change management thing. But, but why does it feel like right now so complex and heavy? I don't, you know, so I think we have to look at the DNA of who gravitates to this field. Right? Yeah. So we're controllers. That's what we like to do. So, you know, I, I think I have kind of a little bit of a unique angle in that, you know, coming from a creative field, coming from an arts field, chaos doesn't bother me. You know, I don't think I could, I probably would have the opposite problem where if I were in a cubicle form and told, this is my swim lane. I just couldn't do it because I'm. I'm all over the place. And I get involved, you know, stick my nose in, whatever, you know. But I just, I think it's, It's. I think the responsibilities are shifting. So people are looking like leaders and employees are looking to CFOs for different things now. And it's like, well, I. You know, that's not quite. I'm gonna have to go Google this, you know. You know, and it. And it, by our nature is by our DNA. It makes us uncomfortable. But I kind of. I kind of love it. And that's what keeps. Keeps it fresh. You know, if I had to, like, there are many days where I don't think I do any finance. Like, I'm, you know, I'm doing stuff, I'm solving problems. We have all kinds of stuff dumped up. We do it. We do hr, we do, like, we get in the mix. I'll walk out and figure out how to set up an inventory system on a, On a. On a new program. And I, you know, by the nature of Ro Brady, you know, we. We're not industry specific. We're all over the place. I have programs in cross industries. We're doing all kinds of different stuff, different scales, different budgets. It's. So I'm already used to not planning, like, because there's only so much planning one can do when it's just. It's a different chapter every day. Like, oh, okay, so this is a completely new set of challenges. You know, is this. Can we build this into a business silo? Can we do this? Can we do this? You know, can I work a royalty deal on this? Can I take an equity stake in this? It's. Every project is a different conversation, so I'm comfortable with that. And then recently when I kind of stepped into vc, this is a new thing. So, yes, I did my due diligence. I went and like, okay, I'm gonna go get my certifications. I'm going to do all of that because you need to know what you're doing. Right. But you just kind of have to jump into stuff. Like, I'm not like you were. You're like the theory thing, which is funny. I haven't done theory since art history like that yet, you know. Right. We just. I think one of the things that we run into as, as CFOs and as finance people in general, and I get this also on the engineering side with our engineering team is, you know, analysis Paralysis, right? We, we get hung up and oh, there's this and there's this and there's so many ramifications. You know, we, we become naturally risk adverse. And I think that happened a lot last year too, because of all of the uncertainty. It was like, how many different scenarios do we have? And you ended up with, oh, and we felt it, you know, we felt it as a, as a design firm. I mean, you know, companies don't innovate when they're, when they're risk adverse, right? You're like, oh yeah, no, we're gonna back up from that because we've got tariffs and we've got this and we've got that, you know, and then I'm, I scramble. But you know, it's, it becomes very real when it's, it's payroll. It's. Yeah. You know, it's, it's keeping your building open. It becomes very real on a, in a small company setting. You know, these are the people that you're, you're seeing every day. This isn't some, you know, faceless mass of employees. You know, it's, it's very real. So I tend to just jump in and like, if there's a problem, let me fix. Sometimes I have to tell me, no, no, no, I just need you to listen, I don't need you to fix. And then I can, I can drop out of that. But it's our nature. You know, Recently I've been thinking about something. I want to throw this your way because I'd love your input. So we talked a lot in Q1 around the fact that many of us in emerging and mid market enterprises would admit that a lot's getting done built on heroics and not systems and structure. And we want to do something about that. But then I was thinking about something different. Let's assume that these technology and AI advancements continue and so much of what can get done is going to get done with system and structure driven by AI. And it lifts the human capability and component to superpower level. Doesn't that raise the heroic component to another level? So we are super dependent upon the human. We are still going to be. So, you know, and this is something you think about what I'm saying there. Yeah, yeah. And it is totally a Phoebe thing because what it's going to do to me is it's going to kind of free you up from the noise, right? You have all this busy work, all this, you know, analysis, you know, a lot of that. And, and we'll see. I don't think it's quite there. It's not quite. Yeah, no, no, no, it's not quite there yet. You know, check, check your data. Yeah, but, but I think it's going to give you as a, as a CFO and really as CEOs, anyone who's, who's in that C suite position, it's going to give you so much more freedom to have overarching visions to. And then to really key on. Key on relationships, because that's something that AI is never going to replace. You know, the relationships with your bankers, with your vendors, with your employees, with your ecosystem. Yes. All of that stuff you will be able to really spend a lot more time on. I think your work will be much more meaningful. It'll be much more rewarding, you know, as opposed to like my nightmare is a cubicle farm. Right. I just couldn't even begin to imagine it. So. So I think that that's the thing that excites me about AI. There's a lot of stuff that worries me more from the humanities side of my life, but as far as this, I really think it's super cool. I get excited about that and the tools that are out there. I love to see the SEC set up that AI task force last year to start, you know, implementing on their side, you know, all the fraud and risk assessment and all the stuff that used to just take so much man hours and monotonous, boring work. Yeah, yeah. You wondered who would want to do that. Yeah, like the grunts. Like, no, there were no more grunts. And I think what people are going to find when they, when they free their team from this, like just draw some crap work that no one wants to do. You know, we're going to be able to. You're going to find these gems in your team, right? Yeah. You know, find these people that have been so buried under this stuff but have this crazy skill set that you had no idea was there. They may have this crazy vision that you had no idea was there. And I just think you're going to see people in this, in this, in this field, but all over just blossom, you know. So let me throw another question your way that came up in one of our roundtables is we also learned a lot by getting it wrong. And is AI going to prevent some level of getting it wrong for some of us? You know what I mean by that? Yes. I don't think initially, because I think right now we put a tremendous amount of confidence on that stuff being right. And I don't think it is I know. So we're gonna fail. I go into this, it begins with that story of let me tell you how wrong AI got it. And everybody starts laughing. Yeah. Well, you know, and my, my, my husband's a programmer and, and he tells me these programming stories of, like, AI disasters. So I, I get, I get what you're saying. Like, yeah, are we going to lose that? And I don't think we will. I think we're going to fail more spectacularly because. Which is a good thing, you know, okay. To me, which is a good thing, but because you're gonna, you're not gonna fail on the, you know, as you're stepping up the pyramid. Right. Because right now there's the grunt work, and this is where you fail because you'd present to the board some crap or something like that, Right. But now you're gonna get up here and you may launch, you may, you may do. You may take a big jump based on something, but that's not accurate. So I think we'll, I think we'll always fail. I think it's human nature. The, the, the people who are out leading who have that low risk profile, you know, I'm, I probably, for a cfo, have a really low risk profile, you know, for, for my world. But you're gonna, there people are always gonna try to do crazy things and kind of fail, and that's fine. You're gonna fall down, you're gonna get up, you're gonna keep on going, and, and those will be the people who are always the innovators. Yeah, I don't, I think AI will just help you fail bigger. Yeah. So from a, from a leadership standpoint, you know, the influencers on for you, does anyone come to mind in terms of influencing your style of leadership or what? What would people use to describe the way that you lead? Because I get this question a lot about the development of. There's no denying the amazing, I'll call it transformation of the collective pull and visibility of finance leaders internally and externally towards leadership and the opportunity that finance leaders now have to impact capability, competency, and overall career development of the masses. And that just was not there when this community started 15 years ago. And that is great opportunity. And that means it's shaped through experience, but also influenced by others. You know, who has shaped yours? And how would people describe your current leadership style? Because I get asked this, is there a collective theme, you know, theme or approach that you're financing? Like, that's a loaded question. Yeah. You know, or characteristics that resonate. Yes. Well, I would, I can tell you what I hope they would say. Yeah, yeah. You know, I try to always, you know, a. Start from a calm place, which I know sounds silly, but start from a non judgmental place because it's, I think it's hard for us to do because we're coming with all these facts and. Yes. And we have, we're dealing with serious stuff. Like these are serious things. You know, these are, they, they affect multiple people, they affect all your employees. So we, you know, I think we carry a lot on our shoulders. So I, one of the things that I always try to do is, okay, I'm going to sit back, I'm going to listen. You know, I always try to listen. I try to get all the perspectives, you know, go into things calmly and, and try to pull, you know, pull all the threads. Like every thread is important. And so that's what I try to do with the team. I try to make sure everyone has equal weight, equal voice. I take all the advice. I'm not just gonna, you know, obviously they're not impulsive. Right. You know. Yeah. Bob signs my check, but he's a voice. But I listen to other voices as well. He would laugh when he heard me say that. But no, I think that's important because if you listen to your team and they feel that their impact is being weighed and their voice is being listened to, you build trust. And nothing is more important in finance than trust. Whether it's your employees, whether it's investors, whether it's, when you get into compliance, anything like that. You have to, you have to be a trusted member of your team. And so that's what I always strive for. That is kind of my, my key, my key thing. I think that's huge. I think that's huge. And I think that's the, a key factor that keeps us, you know, I gotta ask this question. If you and I jousted with Tim Natty from Savannah Bananas on this, if you're really that great as the cfo, shouldn't you take the CEO role? And. Yeah, right. Well, that's why, that's what I'm saying. Those, it's, it's interesting because you're seeing this blend and I've had, and so I'm the, I kind of stepped in as an interim CEO for one of our startups and I think, and it may be because I have a crazy background, but I think those barriers are blending. I think we're going to see more co leading like that CEO, CFO role is going to Be more of a partnership. It's less of a, okay, I live in FP and A land, and I'll do all the risk and I'll do this, and I'll do this and I'll live in my little box. I think that's going away. I mean, hope it's going away. I think companies would be much healthier if it goes away. I think you're going to see the term FP and A go away. Yes. Yeah. Which is because people don't know what it means. No, that's why I think it's going to go away before everybody adopts the understanding of it. It's going to be ingested. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I think it's. I think it's a really fascinating time. It really is. And there's a lot of change all over the place. I mean, when we, when you look at vc, there's a lot of change in vc. I think you're seeing a democratization going on. You're seeing more people with, with crowdfunding laws changing and some like, there's. There's some really creative microfunds going out that are tapping into investors that never would have been able to touch vc, you know, So I just. There's so much cool stuff going on right now. It's. It's an exciting time to be in this world. So for you, what's one capability you think you're going to need to stay at the top of your game in 2030 that you don't have today or that you need to sharpen? I'm perfect. What do you know? Moment. Yeah. Boom. I'm out. No, I think AI is going to change so rapidly that I think that's going to be on everyone's story, the scorecard. I think one of the things that a lot of us are going to have to do is find a way to change the channel a little bit personally. Like we're going to need to, because we're going to lose our creativity. And that's my concern with AI is it's going to be so easy. Like, I use it right now for contracts, agreements, anything. I used to have to. I gotta muscle through this or I gotta go drop a lot of money with an attorney, man. I just throw in, here's what I needed to do, and it spits it out and it's beautiful. We run the risk of losing creativity. Yeah. I don't want to lose voice. And that's, you know, that's more than just, okay, I'm going to go Write a poem. That's how we approach thought. That's how we approach structure. You know, if we start, you know, if we, if we lose that ability to think creativity, we're not going to approach opportunities the right way. I agree. That's one of the things that I love here is, is like, you know, we'll get something in and we'll be like, well, what could we do with this? Can we, can we spin this off to an entity? Can we work a cool royalty deal? Can we do this? Can't. Like you, you've got to always have that creative. What are we not thinking of that a machine that's not capable of. Right. And I mean, and it's super useful and we use it to kind of check ourselves. I mean, it's kind of interesting in that. So we're in the design business. We could look at AI as a massive threat if we chose to. We've gone quite the other direction. We embrace it. We've incorporated into our workflows. It's been fantastic. It's, it's streamlined some of our busy work a lot. But I mean, we did the same thing with 3D printing. So we're, we, you know, we do prototyping as well. When 3D printing came on the scene, it's like, well, crap, are we going to lose that whole division of business? Heck no. We're going to put three of these babies in the studio and we're going to just, you know, so it's, it's all in your outlook, you know, and yeah, that's kind of cliched to say, but, but I think it's important. And that's, it's, that's something that you have to, as you, as you progress in your field, you have to constantly check, check yourself. Are you, are you keeping an open mind? Are you? It's real easy to get cynical, you know, it's really easy to be like, ah, this is the same crap. This is, you know, this is blockchain all over again. And I don't want to hear any of this stuff. You know, it's, you have to just look at everything and like, how can I get, how can I use this for opportunity? So I actually think it's going to bring the human relationship even more visible and create even greater sense of purpose and importance to it, then disconnect it even further. Yep, agreed. Because that's the one thing it can't do. Right? Right. So we'll have more time for in persons. We'll have more time for that. And Yeah, I really do think that we're kind of gonna pull ourselves out of this, like ennui that everybody is in. You know, we're gonna pull ourselves back to actually being healthier mentally. We're gonna have great, real connection. I just. Yeah, I really think it's going in the right direction if we, if we, you know, that's going to need some guardrails, obviously. Yeah. But I don't, I don't see it as this horrific thing I have. You know, there's some reserved areas that I have concern, but I think for the most part it's going to be amazing. So what's one thing that people don't know about you that you're willing to share with us in terms of any habits, rituals, routines, or, you know, something that's unique to you that really you'd say had an impact on kind of getting you to where you are today? I would probably. My background, you know, probably art history, because it is a weird tangent. It is, but. And it's funny because I get asked that all the time, like, how the heck did you go? And. And so it is a first on level up, I'll tell you that. Not to sound grandiose, but if you think about it, so. And art history will always be my first love. I always love it because it's such a unique collective. Because with art, you're taking in what are the politics, what's going on in the culture, what's going on in music. What's going on? It's a collective. It's an interpretation of a collective of so many strings. Right, but what is being a cfo? It's exactly the same thing. You're, like I said, you're pulling these strings. Like I need to know all of the, like, what's going on here? What's going on in the greater economy? What's going on on my inventory line? What are the trends here? What are the trends there? You're collecting all these streams and putting it into a narrative that makes sense for your purpose. So it's the same set of skills, just in a very different context. But I think it kind of trained me for that, you know, where it's obviously a very non traditional path. No, but you nailed something. Two things I'll validate that with. It's interesting because remember that CFO alliance members in Dallas said the secondary tagline for CFO alliance should be finance leaders. Operating finance leaders who own the narrative integrity for the enterprises they lead and serve. Yes. Which is what you just said. And it's really interesting. I had one of the leading retained CFO search leaders here in Philadelphia asked to stop in this morning into my offices for a cup of coffee because we'd never met in person. And he's like, you're actually here in the office? I said, yes. And he stopped in and I said, tell me about a search you're actually working on because it'll be fascinating to bring some of that into our community from your lens. Yes. And he said, we're working on something exciting. It's a private equity backed enterprise. The CFO is retiring. And the profile for who we're bringing in is someone that can take everything that is influencing the business internally and externally and apply it to an accurate read of where the business is actually performing in real time and ensured that there's decision velocity happening with that information. But the ability to do that and apply to this business model with that pressure of that investment group on that person is a special skill set. But what you just said is what your background did taught you that. Because you just said it was the influence of all that through that, that created that. Right, exactly. And it may not even be obvious. And that's one thing about history that I love is you may look at this and you say, oh my, whatever, my kid could paint that. But when you start unpacking it and like, okay, what was going on? What was going on in this period of time? What was going on? What was going on? You know, and it really is just, it's just so fascinating. And so I try to apply those same skills everywhere I go, really. But definitely in this role. I love it. I love it. So if a finance leader or someone who is inspired by you wants to connect with you, what's the best way for them to do that? Phoebe. And what would get your attention? LinkedIn is always a great way to. I'm kind of a, I'm not a big social media person. LinkedIn is a great way to reach me or just shoot me an email. I'm always happy to talk to people I love. I think what we need more, and this is one thing I love about CFO alliance and these groups out here, you know, is we need more peer time. You know, I don't, I don't want to listen to a panel. I don't want to have a networking event and, you know, drink gin and tonics with people I don't care about. I mean, I don't mean to sound rude, but like, I want peer conversation because like I said before when we started you know, we get talked, we get talked to. We're given all kinds of advice that doesn't apply to our business. I want to have real conversations with real people about real problems. And we need more of that so that, you know, anyone who wants to reach out and have a candid conversation and say, you know what? I'm having this. You know, how much cyber insurance do I need? What do you do? Like what? I love those conversations. I'll have those all day long, you know, awesome. But it's, it's, it's hard. And I, and I, I think we need to, as a collective group, work more towards that is more real conversation. I love that and I love that you're willing to give as much as you. You get and more importantly, that you'll be visible to do that. And I thank you for putting yourself out there and I thank you for, for sharing how you got here, but more importantly, how you'll shape where this role will continue to go. And lead by example, because there's a whole group of in the seat today like you are, that are really shaping it. More importantly, a whole group watching how you shape it and are going to like, model it because it is inspirational and it's not this linear pathway anymore. Right? No, that is the best time. That is gone. Yeah, you hear that? It's gone. And I love that about you, Phoebe. And I love what you're bringing to our community. And I thank you for sharing the chapters. There's more chapters to write, which I hope you'll continue to write with us. So thank you for joining us today. Awesome. It's been a great pleasure. I. Look at that. I love. I think we need a lot more of this is what the community needs. So we do. So if you enjoyed this episode and have other inspiring people that you've met or would love to, to have us out there share their story with us, please reach out to us. If you have recommendations, please do that. But most importantly, what we want is you to be not just active listeners and followers, to level up, not just contributors to this community, but we want you to take action yourself. You can do this. You can level up yourself and you can write your next chapters too. So please all stay well, stay safe and stay connected. Thank you again, Phoebe. Thanks. Thank you for tuning in to the Level up podcast. Subscribe so you don't miss the next episode. More stories, insights and connections to help you level up.