1532: The Anti-Startup: Why Buying a Business is the Smartest Path to Entrepreneurship w/ Mark Fleming

Speaker A: Hey, what is up? Welcome to this episode of the wantrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast. As always, I'm, um, your host Brian Lo Fomento. And I know that I'm always excited for every episode, but this is one that I have been waiting for for quite some time because this is an incredible guest that doesn't just own one amazing business, doesn't just own two amazing businesses, doesn't just own a, ah, dozen amazing businesses. This is somebody who has an incredible business portfolio that I'm pretty sure is going to change the way that all of us view this, the path to success when it comes to business and the fact that we don't just have to get stuck in the startup stage. So let me introduce you to today's guest. His name is Mark Fleming. Mark is the co founder and president of Owner Actions Inc. Which is a company that helps people become business owners by buying established, successful small businesses. Mark is currently an owner in more than 20 businesses acquired through a unique model of becoming true partners with the people who run the day to day operations through, through his program. He's now an owner in construction, home, um, services, restaurants, retail, transportation businesses and others. And his work has earned a lot of recognition. Last year, for example, he was tapped as an Ohio 500 influential leader and a Midwest Finance Forum excelling finance leader. We are all going to learn so much from him today. I'm excited about this one. Let's dive straight into my interview with Mark Fleming. All right, Mark, I am so very excited that you're here with us today. First things first, welcome to the show.

Speaker B: Yeah, thank you for having me. Thanks for the great, great intro.

Speaker A: Heck yes. I've been looking forward to this one. Mark. We're going to geek out a lot about all the cool things that you do, but first I've got to put the spotlight on you. Take us beyond the bio. Who's Mark? How'd you start doing all these cool things?

Speaker B: So I mean I've always had kind of an investment background, so I kind of grew up on trading floors. I was lucky that I had a brother who was 14 years older. And so I spent, you know, my summers in high school on kind of Manhattan Wall street trading desks and kind of got brought into finance that way and then um, became a trader once I got out of college and realized, you know, I wanted to be more of like an investor and focus more on companies. So I started doing equity research which is um, basically just picked which stocks we should buy for um, a bank's portfolio and you know, we'd make multi year $100 million investments and know started doing that. And then I got recruited to a hedge fund, um, ran a real estate fund, worked at a private equity firm that we owned community banks. And then one day, after I had done a lot of that, I learned, you know, I saw the Harvard Business professor, you know, saw a 90 second video that said you can buy a small business that trades at three to four times EBITDA and with as little as 5% down. And, you know, that was kind of all you needed to know of how actually accessible through the SBA program. You know, buying your own business really is. Um, you know, my partner Katie and I started buying, you know, businesses for ourselves. We bought a cleaning business. We were in contract for a childcare business heading into Covid. You know, Covid kind of put a stop to the acquisition spree. And then we started Owner Actions, which was originally a website to help business owners and through any stage they were in. So we'd say start, scale, or sell their business. And it created a checklist of everything you needed to do. And, um, what we found is we think our checklist might have overwhelmed some people. So it was industry specific. So if you wanted to start a restaurant, there were 185 steps that you needed to do before you could start your restaurant. And that's pretty overwhelming. Um, so we really just dialed in and focused on what we thought was really the best path to starting a business, which is buying an existing business. And we started making videos on TikTok and they kind of went viral. And, um, after enough people asked, you know, will you help us do this directly? And we finally said yes.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that overview for so many reasons, but especially as a content creator. Mark, you join me in this, is that, uh, we're always looking for what's gonna perk people's ears up. And I feel like you just gave us one of those big moments right there by saying only 5% down. And I know that a lot of people tuning into today's episode are gonna say, mark, Brian, how the heck am I gonna buy a business? Capital is a real thing, and it's not ne the thing that I have in abundance right now. But hearing 5% down, let's directly address that big objection that a lot of people have about capital, talk to us about what that side of things looks like, and then obviously we're going to get into the buying journey together.

Speaker B: Yep. So, I mean, there is a trick to be able to put 5% down. So the SBA technically requires 10%, but you can get the seller to do half of your 10% down payment through would be a form of seller financing where those payments are just on what they call standby, but just means there's no payments of principal or interest during the life of the SBA loan. So that cuts your requirement from 10, uh, to 5, which most deals that we do are at 5. And then even if, um, someone has a really good background and is a really good fit for a business, investors can make that down payment. So if, if you are a really good fit for a business, the returns to the investors are so high that you're going to attract a lot of investment capital. So even if you don't have that 5%, um, it's probably a lot easier than you think to go and raise the money.

Speaker A: And along those lines, when you talk about the returns that we can get from acquiring a business, I feel like I'm going to blame TV for this. Mark, is that a lot of people think that you can only buy failing businesses. Look at Bar Rescue, Restaurant Rescue, all these shows on tv. Let's talk about the landscape of what types of businesses are acquirable with regards to size, with regards to industry, but also with regards to health. Because I feel like it's a big misconception out there.

Speaker B: There is, it's really the opposite because since you're borrowing the money, you have to go buy a healthy business. Now, if you have cash, you know, if you have a couple hundred thousand dollars, you know, sitting around that you can go deploy into a struggling business and you can go pay cash for it, you know, that's one strategy. But if you're going to use the SBA funding and if you're going to borrow the funds, it has to be a business that's currently in good standing. So, uh, the business is going to have to show the cash flow that it can repay the loan. So if it's a distressed business, it's not going to be able to show the cash flow to repay the loan. Um, and one real key when you go to borrow to buy a business is that they're. The lender is going to use the cash flow from the business to determine if they're going to do the loan. So we've worked with a lot of people that, you know, maybe had been laid off, um, from a job, and, you know, they didn't want to go back to work for someone else again. You know, they never wanted to work for someone else. So they were unemployed at the time. That they bought the business and so they had no income. And that didn't matter because the business, um, was bringing in, you know, $1 million a year of cash flow. And that million dollars a year could support the 3 to 4 million dollars debt load that would go with buying the business.

Speaker A: And I'm going to continue the thread of what a listener might be thinking, which is, Mark, are you and Katie just way more risk tolerant than the average person? How much risk is involved in this type of stuff?

Speaker B: There's, there's a ton of risk. And so, you know, my background was in all kinds of investments. Venture capital, private equity, large cap funds, real estate. We've done everything. So small business investing is by far the highest risk investing you can do. Um, but it's also the highest reward. Um, you have the biggest upside and of course, the most likelihood that you're going to realize a bad scenario. Um, so from investors putting money in, they have that risk of their investment going to zero. What's more important is probably for your viewers is if they're the actual borrower and they're going to be the operator of the business, um, is that there is a personal guarantee that's required by the sba. They're required to collateralize the loan, but the definition is to the extent possible. So if you live in an apartment, have no assets whatsoever, the bank's going to use nothing as collateral. If you own your home, if you have a few investment properties, then the bank's going to use those as collateral. So if you do own your home, uh, unless you're in a state like Texas, where banks can't, um, foreclose on the house, um, that your house can be on the line. So if, if you can't repay the loan and you get in trouble as a business, which many do, um, then your house could be at risk of foreclosure. Now, the good news is that banks typically work with you in that scenario. The bank doesn't want to own the house, and they're even second lien behind your mortgage. So that's even more so of a reason why they don't want to take the house. Um, so if you did get in trouble, you can reach out to them and work with them. And they're usually very willing to work out, work with people. And that's why the actual default rates within the SBA program are so low. They're 1 to 4%. It's because, um, you know, they're often willing to work with someone when they get in trouble. Yeah.

Speaker A: And that's great to hear. And these are programs that are out there that I don't think enough people tap into. And Mark, that's why I'm so grateful for voices like yours that are consistently out there sharing all of this stuff with people and particularly in your messaging. I know how intentional you are with your words and you make a very clear distinction between you buying businesses versus what it looks like to operate a business. And I know that's something that makes your approach very unique in this, is that you're not out there running on a day to day level. 20 different businesses inside of your portfolio. Talk to us about that structure and the importance of day to day operations. And who is that operator?

Speaker B: Yep. So we always partner with an individual to go out and find a business that's going to be a good fit for them. So um, when we meet someone, we really try to learn a lot about them. We figure out, you know, what's going to be a good fit for them. And, and to us, you, the person is the most important aspect of buying a business. So we have some very successful restaurants and we have a very successful H Vac company. I say if I took my, my guys that are running the restaurants and I put them in the H Vac the H Vac would probably fail. And if I took my H Vac guy and I put him in the restaurant, the restaurant would probably fail. So uh, uh, we really think it's important matching the person to the business. So for every business we own, then we have an operator that has pretty strong industry experience. And then what we bring is the financial knowledge or the marketing. So our team does the finances for most of our companies. So we do not only the bookkeeping, we do payables, receivables, collections and um, we do some analysis. So we serve as kind of a fractional CFO for all of the companies and we have a team that supports uh, all the companies. And it's a great service because we can lower the costs pretty dramatically because we can centralize um, the team. So you have a shared cost, um, across companies. And then for us as a business we run it at break even. So there's no like profit margin built into the service. It's just what we're doing to service the companies that we own. So that means it's a, it can be a fairly low cost service to them and also very high quality. And then we also have some digital marketing services that can help there as well. So our view, and at least my thesis, is that the more the person that owns a business is focused on customers and employees, the better the business is going to do. And so the more of those other things that we can take off their plate, the more time they get to spend on those, the more the business grows and us as owners, the better we're going to do.

Speaker A: And I'm sure for a lot of people who are hearing the way you talk about this, Mark, it's really going to illuminate the fact that for a lot of people in our own businesses, the things that do hold us back are those back office type things that you just listed out. Is having a grip on the finances, understanding how do I expand my customer base through marketing, all of those types of things. And it's a very constant reminder we get into in every conversation here on the show is that when you become an entrepreneur, when you become a business owner, you no longer just get to be the practitioner, but it sounds like you've created this environment where you do put amazing operators in place so that they can actually operate and you take a lot of those back office things off of their plate when it comes to that setup. You must have a lot of observations as to what makes a business tick across all industries, because you obviously see the entire umbrella of all of these industries. What do you attribute as those consistent themes of this is what really allows a business to flourish and thrive?

Speaker B: I think everything everywhere is ultimately some form of relationship management. So it's managing relationships, of course, internally with your employees and making sure you have a really strong culture there, people that enjoy going to work and then managing your relationships with your customers. Because in any small business, um, the owner is the chief sales officer. Um, and I think that's probably one of the problems I see with a lot of maybe content that I see about buying a business is that maybe it's more passive or hands off, um, without an owner really driving sales, most businesses aren't going to do well. And so it's about managing those relationships with those customers. If they fall behind on payments, what do you do? Do you work with them to help them catch up or kind of give them a break? Um, how do you manage that? Um, staying in front of them. A lot of times the business goes to the person they most recently saw. So if you can stay in front of your customers so that they always know you're there and getting close to your customers, people do business with people that they like. And so the more FaceTime you can get with customers, and that's going to, of course depend on the Type of business. Obviously an E commerce business, it's a little different than A, ah, B2B or even A restaurant. Um, but ultimately it's the relationships that drive everything.

Speaker A: Yeah. And when it comes to those relationships, obviously you have tools in place to help you manage, especially in your position. You've got a business portfolio of dozens of companies and so managing and staying on top of all this and keeping track of those becomes a challenge in and of itself. Talk to us about what sort of essential tools there are in tech and especially in this AI world. I'm curious if that plays a, uh, role in the way that you operate, but what does that look like to, in order to manage this portfolio and stay on top of everything.

Speaker B: So I mean every business is going to have its core operating system and that's going to vary by industry. So you know, you have Service Titan that's you know, very popular amongst home service companies and it can do things like manage, um, you know, not only making sure you get appointments booked so you know, if a customer comes to your website, it's really easy to book a, um, say a service visit. And then also, you know, it follows up with them to make sure that they're going to be there after the meeting. You need to make sure that you follow um, up to try to get the review. So that, that helps you with your SEO on Google, um, which then puts the whole cycle together if all of those are working. Um, every industry kind of has their own version of that. Um, and then within the restaurants you've got things like margin edge, which really tracks your food costs and your wage costs, um, and make sure that you're staying on top of everything because it's really easy to let your expenses run away from you. That's why most restaurants don't do well is that they lose track of those food and labor costs. Um, so you know that software there can really help. And the same with construction, there's specialized software, um, that helps price jobs and manage the logistics. Because sometimes it's mind blowing if you walk past say a skyscraper that's, that's under construction and you just think of just the logistics that go to building that and just how much of a logistics building, uh, business construction is because you know, you have to have the right nails in the right place at the right time with the right boards and the right people and there's just so many pieces that have to come together. And there is some software within the construction industry that kind of helps you manage that logistics.

Speaker A: Yeah. And that's the cool thing in today's day and age is that it seems to me that, and obviously I talk to entrepreneurs from all different industries. Every industry is really having that specialized software these days that uniquely understands that industry. And Mark, you see this better than most in the fact that you are operating across industries. And it's really one of my fun, most fun questions that I get to ask entrepreneurs such as yourself is I would imagine that in your shoes you get to steal and piggyback from other industries and apply it in places where it's not typically applied to. And so you see what works in the restaurant industry and I'm sure it gives you ideas even though it doesn't seem related to the home services industry. Talk to us about some of those cross industry and cross discipline patterns that most other people might not see in the way that they operate.

Speaker B: Yeah, and I'd say that's always been. Maybe my advantage is even when I was back running investment funds, was being a generalist. So I ran a real estate fund but was also a telecom analyst. And I remember my peers that ran real estate funds said that uh, data centers and cell phone towers didn't count as real estate. And this was kind of in 2010. And then those took off and none of my peers would invest in it because they didn't understand it. And obviously covering telecom, being a telecom analyst knew quite a bit about cell phone towers and data, uh, centers and actually kind of where we were going. And that was a huge advantage then and has always been something that have really focused on is taking one, something from one place and using it somewhere else and you know, one area and it's, it, it's kind of related. So one thing we love doing is when our company's together. Um, so you know we have a trucking company and then we recently it's only about a two week old acquisition, acquired a company that um, takes in big semi truckloads and then liquidates website through an auction process. And we looked at it and they're spending a million dollars a year on trucking. And it's like, well that's great. So one of our other trucking companies can take it over, um, do it at a level that still makes sense for them, that's profitable and then our auction company gets a savings. So we love seeing that where our companies can work together. Um, some of the other areas, I mean marketing is always kind of goes across companies is you know, what type of ads are working, what type of ads are not. Um, you know right now it doesn't seem like we've been getting that great of a return on some of our meta and Facebook ads. You know, that it really has been more getting, you know, results in the AI engines. And at least right now, it's not that competitive. Um, especially for a local business, it's a lot less competitive to get your, um, company to show up in the AI engine. So it's kind of better to allocate resources there, uh, and you can get yourself up in the rankings a lot faster in the AI engines than traditional SEO. Traditional SEO, you needed to build backlinks. You needed years to get your authority score up. Um, the AI engines, you can get in right away. So that's something that we've noticed a few businesses that had success there, and then it's like, well, let's go do this everywhere.

Speaker A: Yes, I love that. Listeners, these are real, not only strategic, but also tactical insights that Mark is sharing with us here in today's conversation. So take notes and take action, because Mark is not sharing this because it's fun. Theoretically, Mark is sharing this because it is what is working in the real world across all of his businesses. And Mark, hearing the way that you talk about these things, it's also so much fun because I think about how strategic your mind is with regards to what your next acquisition is going to be and what type of business. It's very clear to me that you see all of this as part of a much bigger puzzle. But a lot of listeners are going to be disqualifying themselves in their own heads because imposter syndrome is a real human experience. And so some of them are going to be saying, mark, you're clearly a seasoned founder. It's got to be easy for you to just buy a business and help make it successful and help make it flourish, especially when you've got these other businesses in your portfolio. Who is this messaging for? Obviously, with owner actions, you guys help others do this as well. Is it for someone who already has been a successful business owner? Is it for someone who says, I don't want to go through the slog of being a startup founder and trying to get initial traction? Who's this for? Who's qualified, so to speak, for this and. And really who should view this as an avenue

Speaker B: so a really wide range of people qualify? So, um, we really look for people that kind of have grit. So you see, most successful entrepreneurs are just people that can get punched in the face over and over and over again and keep going. That type of person is going to do well uh, in just about any business. And then so it's just finding, um, which business to put them in. So that's kind of the main characteristic that you're looking for. As far as the SBA and the borrowing, the bars are fairly low. They look for a 680 credit score or better. So not particularly high. You can with as low as a 650 if you're a 15 year industry vet and you can, uh, effectively use your strength as an operator to offset the lower credit score, or if you could explain that it's there because of maybe a medical reason or something like that, that's relatively understandable. So the bar is relatively low. I mean, one thing that is tricky is that this year the sba, you know, just a couple months ago, changed the requirement. You do have to be a U.S. citizen and 100% of the business has to be owned by a U.S. citizen to be eligible to borrow through the SBA. Um, you used to be able to be, um, a legal permanent resident, um, but now it's a US citizen. So if you're a US Citizen with a decent credit score, you probably qualify for the borrowing. And then from then on, it's more to me, you know, how much are you willing to go through to be successful?

Speaker A: Mark, I guess this is a little more of a philosophical question because it's so funny that I think you're uniquely situated to answer this question because in the finance world we always talk about not putting all of your eggs in one basket. Obviously, diversifying is an essential financial strategy and tactic. However, for one reason or another, and I've been the host of this show for 10 years, so I hear a lot of entrepreneurial and business content creators and the messages that they have for some reason within the world of entrepreneurship, everybody says the exact opposite. They say, no, just focus, just have one idea, just pursue one thing at a time. I like to believe as, uh, someone who has a few different businesses in my portfolio, I like to believe that I get to steal and borrow ideas and apply them across the spectrum. A lot of what you've shared with us here today, what's your response to that? Because I'm sure you appreciate both sides of that coin with your financial hat on and your founder hat on. So how would you help navigate that for listeners?

Speaker B: I mean, statistically, right, more people have had success with the focus. And so, you know, through the investment career, worked with very ultra high net worth individuals who have gone through exits. Almost all of them did it with a singular focus. There aren't many people that really got to very, uh, high levels of wealth, um, by being diversified, they diversified after they made their wealth. And even for us, we have a diversified portfolio. But really our core business is mergers and acquisitions and financial functions. So we're still kind of focused on that. And then we end up, you know, a lot of companies that we own that we can, we can, um, spread our expertise across. So, you know, there is some, um, you know, advantages to staying focused. I mean, I'd say probably my biggest weakness as an entrepreneur is sometimes going off in different paths. And, you know, it usually hurts you. Usually it's better to just stay focused on the core. And, and we even say that with a lot of our companies, you know, our partners, one of the things that we do is stop them from going off down a tangent path. Uh, pretty often is, you know, if the core business is working, let's focus on that. You know, you can run little tests here and there to see if there's something somewhere else, but for the most part, you really want to stay focused. And, you know, there's, you know, certain good things happen when you're doing some, the same thing over and over again. Right. Obviously you're going to get a little better at it. You know, every time that you do it, um, people know what you do. You know, sometimes, um, you know, we have the problem. We do so many different things actually within the acquisition world, um, that sometimes it's hard to message exactly, you know, what you do. And then you have confusion within the customer base. And I think that was actually a problem we had with our software program is, you know, it was, it was doing too much and it did really good job at everything. But you had customer confusion, so the customers didn't really understand why to come to you. So, um, I think there is a lot of advantage for, if you're a really good operator to stay focused. If you're an investor, then you want to stay a little more broad or if there's some similarities. So I don't know the businesses that you have, but, um, if there's some similarities between them, um, where one kind of helps the other, that can be really good too.

Speaker A: Yeah, really well said. And Mark, just to share, from my perspective, that is part of the answer behind the scenes for me is all of my businesses serve the same type of person. And so we've got that horizontal and vertical consolidation there that we can tap into the needs of the user base and the customer base that we serve. So it's really cool to see how all of these things play with each other. And for listeners who are thinking, gosh, I want a lot more Mark Fleming in my life, I want to learn so much more. We're going to drop all of your links in just a couple of minutes here, but Mark, I've got to squeeze two more questions in. The first question is with regards to what type of business could I buy? I'm sure a lot of listeners are getting very excited hearing the way you talk about this. And obviously step one is making that decision of am I talking a local business, Am I talking a restaurant, Am I talking a laundromat? How did we even start to decide what to buy?

Speaker B: So, I mean, there's a wide range. So I mean, we did, when we started out doing TikTok videos, we were breaking down businesses for sale. At one point we looked that we had 250 unique businesses that we had covered. So if you just start driving around, everything you see is a business, right? This plant, somebody had to make that, the painting, somebody made that, the lamp, everything is a business. And you'll start to see that as you think about it. Um, through the SBA program, you can borrow for basically anything. But what might be classified as kind of like sin companies, um, tobacco, um, firearms, gambling, financial services. So if it's a lending institution, basically everything else is on the table. So, yeah, Laundromats, H vac, garage, um, door restaurants, um, cleaning services, landscaping, um, and each of those even have lots of different categories. But we're really big on is buying what you know. So, uh, when someone comes to us, we start with what we call a kind of get to know you period, where there's a couple websites where businesses get listed for sale. Um, one's bizbysell.com and the other one's bizquest.com. um, they're both owned by the same company, but there are some unique listings, uh, across the two. And we have people go through a list of what they think is interesting, what's a good fit for them. And we say ignore the numbers. I don't care how much money it makes. And the description of the business. How can you pitch that you should be CEO of this business? Because ultimately when the person's selling the business, they want to sell it to the person, they want to take over their legacy and they're not going to sell it to just anyone. So you have to be able to pitch yourself as the person that should come in and run that business. So for most people there's going to be Some businesses that, it's really clear that that lines up with their expertise when they go through that exercise. And we'd say for younger people, um, that maybe don't have as much experience, maybe aren't ready to go and take over. You know, you look at your experience, you find businesses that are for sale, and then maybe you go work for a company, um, that, uh, is in that industry, and then you're going to be much more set up to be a successful owner. And I know it's hard, when I was 22, if somebody said, hey, why don't you go work for a company for four years instead of buying today? I would have gotten really annoyed and ignored the advice. Um, but really, that three, four years really isn't that long of a time when you're still young. And it's going to set you up for, for a lot of future success.

Speaker A: Yeah, really well said, Mark. I don't know how you're gonna top all that to answer my final question, but it's super broad. I always ask it. You can go in any direction you want. And that is, what's your best piece of advice for listeners? Knowing that we're being listened to by both entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs at all different stages of their own growth journeys, and knowing that you are one of us, you're a fellow entrepreneur, what's that one thing you wanna leave them with today?

Speaker B: I mean, really, for us, it's that grip. You just, you just have to keep going. You're, like I said, you're gonna get punched in the mouth over and over. And you know what? Entrepreneurship, um, it's just always thinking the final breakthrough is just right, just beyond your grasp and you're just about to get there and then maybe it gets pulled back a little bit and really successful people just push through that and grind through and find a way to get done what needs to be done. Yes.

Speaker A: I love that. That's the truth right there. And Mark, that's what we can always come back to in the good times, in the bad times, in the challenging times, in the fruitful times. Such good advice. I'm so grateful for you sharing that and so many perspectives with our listeners. But I also know that listeners are gonna want a heck of a lot more of your wisdom and your insights. So drop those links on us for listeners who wanna find you and all the great content that you're putting out online and of course, all the great stuff that you're doing through owner actions. Where should listeners go from here?

Speaker B: So most of our content, uh, ends up on our TikTok page. So that's, that's by far the best place to catch us. And we go live on tikt. We're trying to do it every other week, um, uh, on the weekends so you can catch us live for Q and A. So if you follow us there, um, you know, just set so you get alert when we're live and you can jump on and ask your questions. Um, we also post our videos on YouTube and Instagram as well, all under Owner Actions. And of course, you can always check out our website, owneractions.com. yes.

Speaker A: And on top of that, listeners, you already know the drill. We're making it as easy as possible for you to find all of those links down below in the show notes, no matter where it is that you're tuning in today, today's episode. So scroll right on down. There's so much goodness that Mark and Owner Actions are putting into the world so consistently. Definitely check out those links down below. Otherwise, Mark, on behalf of myself and all the listeners worldwide, thanks so much for coming on the show today.

Speaker B: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: Hey, it's Brian here and thanks for tuning in to yet another episode of the wantrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast. If you haven't checked us out online, there's so much good stuff there. Check out the show's website and all the show notes that we talked about in today's episode@, ah, thewantrepreneurshow.com and I just want to give a shout out to our amazing guests. There's a reason why we are ad free and have produced so many incredible episodes five days a week for you. And it's because our guests step up to the plate. These are not sponsored episodes. These are not infomercials. Our guests help us cover the costs of our productions. They so deeply believe in the power of getting their message out in front of you awesome entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs that they contribute to help us make these productions possible. So thank you to not only today's guests, but all of our guests in general. And I just want to invite you. Check out our website because you can send us a voicemail there. We also have live chat. If you want to interact directly with me, go to the wantrepreneur show, initiate a live chat. It's for real me and I'm excited because I'll see you, as always, every Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday here on the wantrepreneur to Entrepreneur Podcast.