#155 - Advocating Like a Boss

Michael Nash: Hey.

Ethan Nash: Hey everybody. Welcome to or welcome back to the Managing with Mind and Heart podcast. I am one of your co hosts, Ethan Nash.

Michael Nash: And with me today, I am your other cohort, cohorst. I'm your co horse. I am your other co host, Michael Nash.

Ethan Nash: That's it. We are the co hosts. Anyways, we got a different type of episode for you today. A special type of episode. And so what you are about to hear is just the audio recording of videos that are on our up and coming soon to be released Mind and Heart University app. And it's a leadership development course app. Really excited about it. Mike, just share a little bit about this project.

Michael Nash: Yeah, it's been years in the making. Um, this app is going to be used in a lot of different ways. It's going to be available to our organizations to help them with their sustainability practices for all the work and all the skills they've been learning. It's going to contain a lot of resources. It's going to contain discussion questions and uh, guides to this and that and some cool surveys and lots of cool stuff. But mostly, primarily, I should say it's going to have our whole Managing with Mind and Heart course in video form.

Ethan Nash: Yep. With worksheets to go along with it. A lot of other different learning aids and tools. Folks, we are, we are excited about this. Um, and I will just say that if maybe after listening to this episode, you are also excited about this. Um, I would encourage you to sign up to go on our mailing distribution list. So once the app is released you'll get a email about it. So I will link to that in the show notes for, for you to be able to go do that. And again, what you're hearing is just the audio of what are these videos, uh, put together for the course. So I think you'll still get a lot out of this just by listening to the audio. Hope you enjoy it. And yeah, please sign up for the distribution list. We'd love to get the app in your hand and in your pocket.

Michael Nash: Yep.

Ethan Nash: All right, thanks.

Michael Nash: Foreign. Hey Ethan, thank you for joining me again. Yeah, it's fun to be here. Let's get back into it. I'm sure that folks watching the video have already memorized these, right? A growth mindset is a prerequisite to being an effective people leader. Morale really matters and it's mostly your job. Effective management involves demonstrating that I have my employees best interests at heart. Let me say that one again because we're in memory practice here, right? Effective management involves demonstrating I have my Employees best interest at heart. Now that happens to be the first of the 15 management skills. We're going to go through all of them briefly right now. We're going to spend a little bit of extra time on this second one. We're going to talk about advocate advocacy number two, advocate for your employees and for the organization. What do we mean by that, Ethan? Advocacy. What does it mean to advocate for an employee? What are some examples of that? Yeah, I mean to advocate to go

Ethan Nash: to bat for them. Um, you know, this could include everything from, hey, I recognize a resource or a tool or a training that my team or a particular employee needs. And so I'm going to try to get that, to ask for that.

Michael Nash: That could be it, it could be

Ethan Nash: around, um, you know, workload. If I'm in middle management, there's a lot going on. I'm seeing my employees are starting to get a little overwhelmed, stressed out, say hey, can we slow down for a week or so? You know, so those are, I mean those are the initial things that come to mind is tools, resources, working conditions.

Michael Nash: Mhm. That's a great. Yep. I could see advocating for an employee's idea. Right. For, for helping to promote something that they believe in or some creative vision they have. I might advocate for that. I might advocate for an employee by bragging about them to others. Um, I might advocate for an employee to help them get a better work life balance. Kind of the sky's the limit here. Right. And we're certainly not obligated to advocate for everything that they want. But as an employee, this is another way that I'm going to recognize that my boss cares about me, that they have my best interests at heart. Right. Is that they actually have my back and they advocate for me.

Ethan Nash: Agreed. And this is, this is one of the reasons people sometimes think they have a manager is, you know, a manager somebody that will go and ask for things to advocate for things. And so yeah, this is, this is on our employees radar when it comes to things that we often expect from our managers.

Michael Nash: Uh, you just reminded me that it also would meet, it would include things like going ahead of the employee out there and kind of trying to get rid of roadblocks and take care of things that are in the way. You know, that sort of thing.

Ethan Nash: Maybe friction between different departments trying to collaborate to try to resolve that, get some clarity, you know.

Michael Nash: Good, good, good. Well, in the, in the workshop we, at this point we just list a lot of principles. We don't usually just go one by one. We throw them up on the screen. And we ask people to look at these, to think about which, uh, of these would they like to discuss further? Which ones are, uh, kind of really kind of hit home. And they have examples in their world, maybe they have questions about some of these. So let's just talk about a few of these principles in terms of what it looks like to advocate successfully for your employees. Um, I want to just jump in with the, you know, the first couple here, which we talked about already. Ask, listen. Ask how you can help, how I can support. Really listen, listen super well, paraphrase. Make sure that they're heard. We know you're not going to always be able to do what you're being asked to do. Right. As a manager. But it really means a lot to people if they sincerely can see that you care that you're listening to them, that they're on your radar.

Ethan Nash: Yeah, uh, absolutely. One of my favorites, if I can put it that way, on this list is, um, you know, be, be an equal opportunity advocate. And I also. Would you mind speaking to that one a little bit? Because you've explained that to me in the past.

Michael Nash: Yeah, it, it, it's not this. It doesn't mean that I'm going to have to make sure that everyone that works in my organization or in my department gets the same thing the same way. That's not what we mean. But I am equally accessible. Um, I'm equally interested in trying to make you successful. I'm not playing favorites. I don't, uh, advocate more for the person that I consider a high performer than I do for the person that might be struggling. That my advocacy is equally, I guess I'll say fairly distributed or at least accessible to all.

Ethan Nash: Yeah, absolutely.

Michael Nash: I'm interested. Often it comes up in class, we talk about the, um, don't play good cop, bad cop thing. Um, and it's that manager who really hates saying no. And they always want to pretend that they're going to go for whatever the employee asks, is asking for. Right. So the employee is asking for the unreasonable or the thing that I just know is not a thing. It's not going to happen. But I still say, oh, you know what? That's. Yeah, you really need that. I'm going to go see what I can do. Oh, uh, you know what? Sorry, couldn't get it for you. So you always look like the good guy.

Ethan Nash: You know, the good guy.

Michael Nash: Like, I tried, I tried. But yeah, as opposed to just being able to say, I, uh, I really don't see that happening. Let's See if we can mitigate the situation, but that's just not going to be a thing.

Ethan Nash: Yeah, absolutely. And the flip side of this, and this comes back to self awareness. Right. Know thyself. It's like depending on your personality, your way of seeing the world, you know, you might be more, you might be more inclined to say, it's very unlikely that's going to happen, but it actually might. Right. Maybe this is something you really should go to bat for. And so not automatically assuming because I've asked for something like this in the past or something similar and it was a no, doesn't mean it might not be an opportunity to ask now. So it's using your judgment.

Michael Nash: Yeah, it's a balancing act there, isn't it, between those two. Right. Um, you know what? It's, it's a good thing to let your employees know that you are advocating for them. I remember a coaching situation I was in years and years ago and turns out this, uh, manager was getting no management points at all, quote management points from their employees for advocacy, even though they were advocating all the time, but the employees didn't know it. So they thought, this person never goes to bat for us. But the person was going to bat. They just didn't want to tell the employee, partly because they were afraid of that, uh, kind of that dynamic of advocating and then not getting what they asked for, then disappointing the employee. So they just didn't say anything. But they lost their, they didn't get credit where credit was due for, for advocating.

Ethan Nash: Yeah, make that, make that visible. Um, in a sense. And, and to build on that point, I mean, what happens when the answer is no? So you say, hey, you know what? I do agree. This is something that, that you could use. It makes sense. Appreciate you bringing this to me. I'm going to go ask about it. Upper management says no, and now I got to bring the bad news back.

Michael Nash: Yeah, let's have a way to do that.

Ethan Nash: I'm sure.

Michael Nash: Let's, let's kind of play that out. So let's say, Ethan, uh, let's say you, you, you're, you're one of my employees and you, uh, come and let me know that you would, could really use, um, a piece of equipment or some training or whatever it might be. And I agree. I, I'm with you. I, I, I see that. I, I get it. I, I even let you know that, hey, yes, you, that makes sense. I'm gonna go see what I can do and I go upstairs now. Is it possible I'm gonna Get a no. Right? It's very possible. Um, the answer is gonna be no. Now, I have some choices here. I come back and I really have roughly kind of three different angles I can take here, three different ways I could respond to you. And two of them I could choose. You know what, Ethan? We decided you don't need that. Good luck.

Ethan Nash: So really that you've agreed with me that I needed this?

Michael Nash: No, you know what? You were wrong and I was mistaken. But you don't need it. We've decided. Okay, so, so there, there. I've stopped advocating for you. But I'm, um, advocating in a sense, for the company. I've, I've chosen sides. Right now I could make the opposite mistake. Ethan, I'm so sorry. Those idiots, they don't know what's going on. They're stupid, they don't get it. Uh, it's you and me against the man, you know, kind of thing. So now here I am, I'm suddenly not advocating for the organization. I'm throwing them under the bus so that you and I, I can feel aligned with you and you'll still like me. That kind of thing. Does that make sense?

Ethan Nash: Mhm. Absolutely.

Michael Nash: So what's the middle ground? How do I approach this in a way that maintains, uh, some important principles? Like it's okay to acknowledge disappointment. It's not okay to talk negatively about leaders in the organization, Ethan. I talked to the, uh, you know, the execs or, you know, whoever.

Ethan Nash: Scrum.

Michael Nash: Um, the answer is no for now. Um, let me explain some of the reasoning behind that.

Ethan Nash: Here's.

Michael Nash: And, and, and side note on that. It's important that I ask some questions, right? I want to be able to come back and give you something. Right? So here's kind of what, here's what they said, here's the reasons for that. I'm gonna ask again. Probably six to eight months. See, see what we can do in the meantime. Uh, can we, can I help you with this? Can we find some ways to mitigate the situation? There I am balancing, hopefully the two. I'm, I'm advocating for you. I'm advocating for the organization. I'm not throwing anyone under the bus.

Ethan Nash: Yeah, that's great. And, and to add to the point, I'm not throwing anybody under the bus. I mean, the cool thing you did in that example is right. You didn't say, well, this is a decision they made. And gosh, it sucks so bad. And you know, I, I totally disagree with it. And it just, you know, it's, you know, you know, it's, it's just acknowledging kind of the cold hard facts of the situation. Hey, look, we both agreed that this would be a good thing for you. It's not happening right now. Here was the decision, here's what was, you know, here's what they communicated to me. And so you're just kind of stating that as it is without kind of going too far in one direction or the other. And I mean that's, that's a trick. It's a tricky place to be in kind of a middle management position where you have to straddle these two worlds. Um, but this is, this is necessary, um, to advocate without throwing the organization under the bus.

Michael Nash: Yeah, you're expressing some empathy, slight disappointment, but you're going to get past that really quick in terms of let's now do some problem solving. And then like you're emphasizing there, it's not about badmouthing anyone else. And I want a side note on that. There's a kind of a systems analogy about why that is so important that we're not going to come back to the employee and start badmouthing the management. Um, we'll use a family model. As we talked about earlier in this series, there's a lot of overlap between family, um, dynamics and organizational dynamics. We're going to look at both of them systemically in a family system. And here's a family system here. This particular family will have a two parent family family system and that's a subsystem within the broader system. And then there's a sibling subsystem within this family system. Now you might have heard of a parentified child, right? This is that place where a child is temporarily moved into the parental subsystem. Um, this happens lots of different ways. They're given way too much responsibility for the physical or the emotional m. Well, being of the family, um, they might be, uh, asked to discipline their siblings, uh, et cetera, et cetera. It's very ugly. It creates what's technically called anxiety in the sibling subsystem, which is the clinical word, which means the system becomes anxious. And when a system becomes anxious, people within that system don't feel safe, they tend to act out, et cetera, et cetera. So what's the analogy here would be, let's say I'm not happy with something that my wife is doing. I don't like something about her behavior or her personality or whatever it is. And I start talking about that to my 12 year old, right? Telling my 12 year old all the angst I have about his mom, that is a parentified child. This child has no business being in that conversation, hearing those things. And that creates anxiety in the entire sibling subsystem. And that's what happens in an organization when managers badmouth managers to employees. It might feel good for the manager. It might feel like you're aligning, uh, in some ways and building rapport with the employee. But. But it creates low morale, it creates anxiety, it hurts the culture in the organization. So here's our formula when it comes to advocating for employees and the organization. Have your employees best interests at heart, which we've talked about. Have your organization's best interests at heart and serve both interests through facilitating your employees success.

Ethan Nash: Love it.

Michael Nash: Top 15. Number two, advocate for your employees and for the organization. Let's just. Ethan, briefly touch on the other 13. Take it away.

Ethan Nash: Okay, well, top 15. Skill number three is resource. Your team provide tools, provide training. Obviously this connects with the advocate one that we just talked about.

Michael Nash: But get them what they need to

Ethan Nash: do or get them what they need to be successful in their roles.

Michael Nash: Right. I like how these sort of stack. Right.

Ethan Nash: Resource.

Michael Nash: Your team is a subset of number two. Advocate and advocacy is a subset of number one which is have your employees best interests at heart. They kind of build on each other in a pretty nice way. Ask for feedback from your employees. This is really big to get managers to actually sincerely have the show. Demonstrate the humility to ask for feedback and then be open to that feedback, not to show up defensively.

Ethan Nash: Number five is be approachable. Now we spoke earlier about the power differential. This where it comes into play, right. Be somebody that people feel comfortable coming to with feedback, coming to with questions, um, with asks. Um, it's about the general vibe you give out as well as how you respond when people have asks or feedback. M and things like that

Michael Nash: make your expectations clear. The more clarity you provide up front, the less you're going to have to micromanage or deal with problem behaviors. The more clarity you provide up front, the more freedom your employees feel then to act with autonomy. It's a key component to proactive management, which is really what our whole second chapter is about.

Ethan Nash: Number seven, be available and responsive. I mean so this is showing up, checking in, returning calls, returning emails. Be there for your people. If you're in an in person environment, it's managing by walking around and bwa, um, just be responsive. That's the bottom line.

Michael Nash: Number eight, follow through, follow up. Be that manager that does what you said you were going to do if you're not going to be able to make your deadline or follow through. You let people know ahead of time. Uh, one of the fastest ways to lose trust is to over promise and under deliver.

Ethan Nash: Number nine is deal with problems and concerns. Another reason why people think they have a manager is to help remove roadblocks and deal with these problems. So the biggest source of negativity in the workplace is often frustration about unresolved issues.

Michael Nash: Hold people accountable. Ethan, you mentioned this earlier, but it's a, it's a, it's a morale issue. Right? If people are allowed to misbehave, to not produce, to not be effective, if that's just allowed. Remember what we allow you teach. Pretty soon it becomes um, everyone starts doing it or people get really frustrated and their morale is damaged. It is not mean, it is not bossy, it's not over controlling to hold people accountable. And we're going to be spending a fair amount of time on that. Especially when we get to chapter four.

Ethan Nash: Number 11 is give recognition and show appreciation. Again it connects to showing care and respect.

Michael Nash: But this is a skill we call

Ethan Nash: out on its own. But um, look at the end of the day, people who feel genuinely appreciated, um, they're going to experience more wellness, more self worth. Um, and when that happens again, coming back to the psychological contract, the more I see that you're invested in me, the more willing I am, um, willing and able I am to invest back to contribute to the company. So give recognition and show appreciation.

Michael Nash: Got some really cool stuff on that on chapter five. I think you're going to enjoy. 12. Communicate and then communicate again. And then communicate again. Mhm. Information distribution. Um, we're going to talk in chapter five about being an information curator. About uh, being the, the person who gathers and sorts and makes sure that people know what they need to know in order for them to be effective.

Ethan Nash: Number 13. Give people autonomy and trust. This is all about ownership.

Michael Nash: Okay.

Ethan Nash: Um, you'll see some pieces of research there. But the, the bottom line is that when people feel a sense of autonomy, when they're giving, when they're given um, given autonomy, um, they tend to perform better.

Michael Nash: Right.

Ethan Nash: Because we all crave autonomy. It's one of our foundational human needs. So find ways to do this and uh, it will go a long ways.

Michael Nash: Good. CK put on decisions again in chapter five we'll be talking about a decision making model that includes the manager's willingness and skill level in receiving people's ideas. They're uh, helping them to be creative, incorporating other people's ideas into their decisions at least some of the time. This is one of the best ways to show employees that you value them and that you respect them.

Ethan Nash: And last but certainly not least is be fair and equitable.

Michael Nash: Right.

Ethan Nash: Treat people with dignity and respect and talk about this in a different chapter. But favoritism, whether it is real favoritism or just the perception of favoritism, um, can really drain an environment. Um, and so we work to avoid that at all, at all costs. And we'll talk about how to, how to start doing that in a later chapter.

Michael Nash: Yeah. And um, again, all of these will be addressed, uh, in this workshop. Quick side note, but, but an important side note. It's possible to look at this list and maybe start to feel a little overwhelmed. Uh, maybe to start letting that inner critic come out that's telling you that you're not a great manager because you could remember that time you did the thing or didn't do the other thing and, or this particular skill isn't your skill set yet. Right. Right. It's. It's okay. Please give yourself compassion. Give yourself kindness, Give yourself grace. I'm not 100% on any of these 15 things, let alone the whole list. It's a, uh, it's a journey. Our belief is that if you are headed in the right direction, if you have a growth mindset, if you're focused on improving these skills right there, that puts you in a whole separate category. It. It Right. That right there makes you a great manager. Right. Because your growth mindset is informing your decisions around the skills that you're going to be developing and growing. And your employees are going to see that and they're going to respond to that.

Ethan Nash: Yeah. Commitment is far more important and reasonable than perfection.

Michael Nash: Good. Yes. So there they are. Top 15 management skills. Those are going to be our kind of our table of contents as we go forward. And we're going to finish up by adding another item to our radar. We have growth mindset as a prerequisite to being an effective manager. We have morale really matters and it's mostly your job. We have this concept which is the first of the 15 skills that effective management involves. Demonstrating that I have my employees best interest at heart. And number four is really just an acknowledgement that these 15 skills exist. Managing people involves a specific set of deliverables. That is these 15 management skills and we call them deliverables for a very important reason. These 15 skills do not deliver themselves. They don't magically come about because you're a good person or, or because you care about people. Some of them maybe, but not all of them. These are intentional, and we want to get these on our management radar.