100 You Are Not as Self Aware as You Think You Are: with Dr Julia Carden

Hello and welcome to the Knowing Self, Knowing Others podcast. I'm your host, Nia Thomas. Join me for the last time as we discuss self-aware leadership with thinkers from around the globe in the 100th episode of the Knowing Self, Knowing Others podcast. Today, we're joined by Dr.

Julia Carden, who's the founder of Carden Consulting and a highly respected executive coach, supervisor and educator. Julia began her career as a Royal Naval Officer, later moving into roles in HR and leadership development before founding her own consultancy in 2008. Over the years, she's worked with leaders and teams across both the public and private sectors, helping them to grow their confidence, clarity and capacity. Her coaching practice is grounded in her PhD research on self-awareness, which is really exciting for us.

A theme that runs through her work with clients and also through her forthcoming book, You Are Not as Self-Aware As You Think You Are, which will be coming out in October because I checked before coming on screen. Julia's approach is both developmental and systemic, so she supports the whole person while keeping in mind the complex environments in which they operate. In addition to her consultancy, Julia is a visiting tutor at Henley Business School. She's also an accredited coach helping leaders to reflect deeply, grow meaningfully and lead with greater self-awareness.

Julia, it's the 100th and final episode of the Knowing Self, Knowing Others podcast. So to have another expert whose doctorate focused on self-awareness on the show is just awesome. So thank you so much for joining me. Oh, thank you for having me.

And what a privilege to be on your 100th podcast. The 100th one. Julia tell us about your journey from being a naval officer to leadership coaching how does that journey fit together yeah actually I joined as a REMS officer I know I hopefully don't look as old as that but um when I joined uh girls were very separate to the men we had blue stripes not gold and we were known as women's rural naval service so it changed when I was in but yeah the journey into this space so my last formal job in the navy was to work in the Admiralty interview board where they assess and select potential Royal Naval, Royal Marine officers, medics, dentists and chaplains.

And so got very interested in the assessment centre side of HR. Then went off to HR consultancy, working for some other companies and really started honing in on this assessment and development centre piece. During that time, did all my psychometric testing qualifications. They're feeding back in a very coaching style.

They're encouraging you to feed back in a coaching on that's really what led me into that space so that was the transition and then from the leadership development building on all that I had been trained and learned to do I really realized early on in my HR career that I was more a learning and development specialist than a what I would call a HR people resourcing employee relations type specialist. Amazing so when you talk about self-awareness what exactly do you mean because I'm sure listeners and watchers know what I mean talks about it for the last three years but how do you define it yeah I know you and I had a conversation because I think we were doing our research about the same yes I mean how annoying that we didn't didn't know we were doing the research at the same time so it's a really complex dynamic and ever-evolving construct I'm going to use the word construct that's what the academics would call it so that's the first thing I want to say and so I'm very conscious of the fact however I define it, somehow it minimises the complexity of what it is.

So it's aware of our inner self, what drives us, what defines us. So that'd be things like values and beliefs, our motivations, our needs, our physiological awareness, what's going on in our body at any one time, you know, whether moments of tension or flutters or movements. So all of that awareness of our inner self and what defines us combined with how others experience us. So I talk about the intrapersonal within us and then the interpersonal how others experience us, those we're leading and manage.

I've got a neat little definition I use but I've also got a pictorial definition which is on my website which I feel is much more rich than just a few sentences. We will make sure that there is a link to that infographic in the show notes so that if anybody wants to go and find out more about it they certainly can so what did your phd focus on and what were your findings so the main research focus is what is the role of self-awareness and the development of the executive coach which you could replace with the development of an executive senior leader if if you wanted to but i wanted to hone in on coach development so the first big finding um so i should say that I did three distinct studies and there was and I did it by publication so there was a paper associated with each of the studies but they fed together the first big finding which slightly hijacked how deep I wanted to go with the other research was that it was an ill-defined and undefined construct within the realms of adult development so that would be leadership development MBA work you know another leadership development so it wasn't defined at all the other big finding was that it's used interchangeably with other terms about self, like self-knowledge and self-consciousness.

So that meant that I then spent the first study defining self-awareness within the context of adult development. So I hadn't planned on doing that. So that was the first finding. I then explored what role it plays in the development of executive coaches and leaders.

And the finding there was what it gives you is this ability to connect with self, who we are. And through connecting with self, we can then connect better and deeper with others. And from a leadership perspective and from a coaching perspective, I always say you can't connect with others if you haven't first connected with yourself. So if there's parts of yourself that you're not wanting to confront or look into, then that's going to provide an unconscious barrier to those that we're leading and we're all working with as a coach.

So that was my finding, this deep connection to self through self-awareness. And then in terms of how to develop it, I sort of had this very naive plan when I started my research that I'd come up with some model of how to develop self-awareness and then it'd go tick and I'd be able to commercialise it and commoditise it and sell it I mean how ridiculously naive I was so there is no one way of developing it and actually it needs multiple I've referred to it like a jigsaw puzzle we need multiple pieces of that jigsaw puzzle and we need to be moving those pieces of the jigsaw puzzle around maybe sometimes a piece goes away and another piece comes in but that was my other learning that there is not one model and one frame for developing it which was for somebody who does leadership development and wants to sell it it's a little bit irritating but nevertheless that was the finding and and out of the ways to develop it the biggest thing that we need to do is some form of reflection but it doesn't have to be there's lots of misnomers around reflection so yeah that was that was the sort of highlights I think that's amazing and there are so many similarities as you're talking about first you've got to define it even if you didn't think you're going to have to do that you have to work it out.

What is your definition? So yeah, just like you, I had to do that. And trying to work out how people move towards it. I didn't work that out as part of my research.

It was only when I was talking to people about the research, people were saying, well, how can I become more self-aware then? And it was through my book that I started to put things together and I got a compass, whereas you have a jigsaw puzzle. So that's really interesting. Similarities and differences.

we will make sure that there are links to your website and your forthcoming book and we'll talk about that shortly well and you should make sure there's links to your compass as well because you know it's horses for courses that's the other thing i've learned about developing self-awareness you know what's your personal learning style what's what works for you and what works for me now at this time in my life might not work for me future or might not have worked for me before so i think The more people have access to how to develop it, the better, really.

Yes definitely I will make sure that it there as part of that sharing In an article you wrote a few weeks ago you talked about self self and self which you just mentioned that this interchangeability How are they different? How are they the same? And does it matter? Does it matter?

I think from a academic construct clarity perspective, it absolutely matters. And if you were a quantitative researcher and you wanted to develop a measure, you have to have that clarity. So I think, yes, it does matter from an academic perspective. For leaders and more practically, I think it matters in terms of them getting clear on what self-awareness means for them and hopefully provide some sort of bookmark, line in the sand for them to think about.

So that's why I believe it matters. And like you've just highlighted, we can't develop it if we don't know what it is. So we've got to be clear on what it is first before we even think, are we motivated to develop it, which I'd say is the next thing. So the similarities, it's all terms about self.

It all is focused on self and how we're showing up in the world. the differences and this is how i've differentiated based on the systematic literature review and research i did in that space was self-consciousness is the intra-personal components of self-awareness the inner bit i value beliefs inner motivations inner needs the things that define us so the intra now some later leaders who wrote around self-consciousness like some two people called Trapnell and Campbell also brought in the interpersonal as well but I've created real boundaries around that from a to get construct clarity perspective so intrapersonal is a part of self-awareness it makes self-awareness up with some other stuff whereas self-knowledge is what I get having done some self-awareness work and for me self-knowledge is the knowledge of how I'm showing up, the knowledge of my biases, my prejudice, my drivers, my motivations, and being really honest about them.

So for me, self-knowledge is the output of self-awareness. It's the part of doing the work. So that's how I've differentiated it. That definitely makes sense.

So we've talked about your book very briefly. It's going to be available in October 2025. Am I right? Yes.

21st of October is the actual release date. It's on Amazon and Waterstones now. For pre-order. Right.

We will make sure that that link is in the show notes, very exciting. It's called You Are Not As Self-Aware As You Think You Are. So what are readers going to discover in your book? What will be in it that they will want to read about?

Yeah, it's really interesting because I know you did a podcast with Robert Diggins on highly relational. And I remember when he introduced me, he said, oh, this is the incredibly self-aware Julia Carden. And I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Because I think the thing I really want to emphasize in my book is the minute we start thinking we're self-aware or we think we've done the work we're actually not yes because there's always new things and I really love the quote by Pema Chodron who's a Buddhist and she says we work on ourselves in order to work with others and we work with others in order to work on ourselves well if I'm a leader I've got lots of other people that are going to be telling me something about myself so it's an ever-evolving thing so I really digest that in the book but I take people through what self-awareness is and then I break down each of my components or I call them ingredients because I love cooking so take down values and beliefs take down motivations and and how might you develop that component and I've done it in a way that if I if I was the leader I'd already known I've done lots of work on my values and beliefs I might dive into how do I develop the physiological awareness that I haven't done.

There's also some thinking in there around how you might support others in developing self awareness. And there's also some thinking about when self awareness might slip into self delusion, self deception or hubris. And the reason it's called you're not as self aware as you think you are, as I once was speaking to a leader who I wasn't working with, I was working with this team. And I was thinking, actually, it's you that probably needs to do the work, not the team.

and I said to him so you know as a leader lonely who do you use to challenge your thinking to think things through in a confidential way and he said oh I don't need anybody I'm very self-aware alarm bells you're not because I've realized I was on a quest to be more self-aware and so oh when I've done the work I'm done and I've realized that's not the case I realized that some time ago because I think it was Lawrence Barrett talks about it being something like an elusive concept that once we think we've got a grasp of it, it slips out of our hands and we have to chase after it again.

A will-o'-the-wisp. Yeah, a will-o'-the-wisp. There we go. Lovely, lovely.

Amazing, brilliant. Well, I'm looking forward to reading your book and seeing particularly just how close we are and how different we are in our ideas. In your book, you do talk about how we see ourselves and how others see us. When you're thinking about leaders, how much attention do leaders need to pay to both of those things?

Oh, massive. Equal and more. And interestingly, when I was doing my research, somebody said to me, well, self-awareness can be a very narcissistic, overindulgent activity, which is why on my diagram that helps define it, I've put the interpersonal first. So we're doing it in service of others so I think you can't do one without the other as a leader because as a leader we are serving others you know however you you perceive it you know we are leading so we've got to do both and actually if we don't do the inner work the intrapersonal stuff that's when we're likely to easily slip into conflict inappropriate behaviors and emotions in the workplace so being able to do both is really really important and spend time developing both but that's the other reason we're not as self-aware as we think we are because to get real awareness of our interpersonal others experience us is really hard as a leader because if I ask my team they're going to possibly tell me what I want to hear because they want to get promoted they want to keep my favor they want me to like them they might be people pleasers themselves I'm only going to hear what I want to hear because I'm going to delete distort and generalise anything that doesn't quite fit with my perspective.

So it's really hard to get accuracy on that, which is the other reason I say you're not as self-aware because there's always fuzziness and messiness around that. Yes, definitely. One of the best things that I've done is a feed forward. And I think it comes from Marshall Goldsmith.

I think he coined the term, but that feed forward, it's almost like a 360, but probably a little bit more low key than a 360, but it gives the opportunity to ask those questions of what could I do differently next time what would you like me to do more of and less of and it's less of that unpicking what you've done and quite frankly you can't do anything about it because it's in the past and I really like that and I think it's non-threatening for lots of people I think people still are reluctant to tell you everything because how trusting are they that an organization isn't going to out them yeah I definitely think that's a really good tool to use that feed forward.

Yeah I've said in my book the two things as a manager to be asking your team is what do I do and you can choose the adjective around that what do I do that you appreciate or value or support you and then they've got to ask the second one what do I do that irritates you hinders you gets in the way demotivates you so you can pick the adjective but there's got to be both sides of the coin there and then listen to the results and just accept them and then go away and think about them, not respond in the moment.

Yes. And I think that is a really tough one. And I think you have to know how you respond and how your emotions play out and be ready for that feedback and know how you're going to look at it more objectively. What do you need to do to give yourself that space, to give yourself that objectivity?

And that's hard. Yeah, yeah. And I highlight actually your reaction to that, your response to that is giving you more data on yourself all the time. Yes.

And I always say to people, give me 48 hours and I can come back to you. But certainly the feedback that I've had from the feed forward exercises are really valuable. And as a team, three of us did it together. And as a team, we really made changes that were very visible and very obvious to our team based on the feedback that they given us And that was really valuable I think You say self is something we never fully reach And I absolutely agree that that journey, I think, is something that we are always on.

How can leaders stay open and curious to that journey? Because you've already mentioned things like, well, actually, I've done the work now. I'm self-aware. I mean, I think first of all, they've got to see the value in developing self-awareness I think you know and they've got to have some motivation and desire to do it I suppose and a degree of acceptance that we're not perfect so I suspect there are some narcissistic leaders out there that because they think they're brilliant already that they don't see the need so I think you know there's got to be some acceptance and desire there first of all and I would encourage them to work with you know a thinking partner that doesn't have to be a coach but somebody who's going to hold the mirror up as appropriate and offer them some reflections.

And the other simple way to stay open and curious is perhaps just pose themselves a couple of questions. Why did I do that in that meeting today? What led to me to take over or get angry or whatever it is? And I think just hold the question.

You don't have to answer the question. It'll be percolating through your system all the time. Yes. You mentioned writing things down there.

What are your thoughts on journaling? Yeah, I think journaling is great and it doesn't work for everybody. So I'm very conscious of the fact that journaling in a free-for way, journaling in a way that's unedited can give us great access to our unconscious. We can get glimpses of our unconscious.

But I think if writing's not your thing it's not going to help so maybe a mind map or drawing an image or you know speaking or doing an audio or doing a poem is is also valid but some form of reflective activity definitely is is supportive as you were talking there I'm thinking coaching feels like the the out loud version of journaling does does that make sense does that resonate with you yes it can and a coach can also offer reflections back on what they're hearing how you're showing up the coach can also ask questions to challenge what you're writing and say is that true is that really what happened you know if we had the other person in the room what would they be so they can a coach can help you see it from other perspectives they can use some exercises to do that so there is an element if it could be journaling out loud but you've also got the challenge and the let's look at it from some other perspectives going on as well doesn't have to be a coach a therapist equally valid in this space but with the people that you have worked with over the years so since 2008 you've seen lots of different clients and people who come to coaching have you found that the that people have got to the point of saying actually do you know what maybe i'm the one that needs to make the change here and I ask that on the basis that I've spoken to a few people who are coaches and we talk about this what if somebody isn't self-aware when they come to coaching how where do you start to get them to a point where they can come back to developing self-awareness so that they can move forward again I am it so I use the analogy like are they a customer are they a customer for coaching are they a customer to do some work on themselves and are they a customer to do that work with me so sometimes what you find with people coming into the coaching space because their line manager or their organization have sent them is they're still at the shop window deciding whether they want to come in the shop or not yeah they may have got into the shop and be looking at stuff on the rail but they're certainly not at the counter paying for it now through the development of the relationship and through the coach's capacity to hold they're not moving forward or they're tentatively exploring they may end up at the counter and I say may because they may not and you know I spoke to somebody today who does want to do some work but because of their personal situations has not got the capacity to be in that space and they were really honest about that so there's something for me as well and I talk about in my book about doing this work with compassion to yourself have you got the capacity to do it right now because you may not and and that's fine as well you know it has its downsides but I think that's you know have we got the capacity to do it I often talk to people who have members of staff who maybe are very challenging maybe performance is something that's tried to be tackled but actually they're not getting very far and people are sent to coaching.

How do people respond to that? Are they in a place where they can move forward or are those the very people who aren't even looking in the shop window yet? I think it depends. I think it's important to them in their life right now.

I think there's no one fixed way on that. And maybe you only nudge the door open with them and that's still good work. But they may not be ready. And also, you know, it's really interesting when people come with their team member that can't change, is underperforming, very difficult, challenging, whatever it is.

They always want to change that other person. What are they going to change in themselves? Yes. You know that lovely Winnie the Pooh quote about Pooh Bear kept bumping down the stairs and if only you could stop bumping for a moment and find another way.

Indeed. And you can't change others, you can only change yourself. Yeah, 100%. And, you know, I accept that some people are incredibly challenging to manage and lead and probably don't want to be in that organisation or in that job or working with that leader.

and the leader may have tried everything, but what accountability are they taking for how the relationship is and the unconscious dynamics? You know, a question I often use and I say, first response, best response. And it's taken from a well-known coaching supervisor, Robin Showett. And he just says, what would happen if you're on a desert island together?

Well, you know, if I, the leader, respond and say, well, we've been opposite the answer, we're not talking. Well, that's the unconscious dynamic of that relationship, hey? Yes, absolutely. that's a really good question to ask isn't it it really cuts it down you um mentioned the question earlier how do people start to to develop this curiosity why am I behaving like this how can people start to build those kind of things into more of a habit in terms of their leadership practice um how can you build a tablet it's like anything I think what I would be interested in is how do people build their own habits and their own, you know, what traditionally works for them?

You know, some people like a reminder, don't they, on the fridge door, on their phone. So what helps you build a habit? So I think that's the first thing, getting clear on what works for you in that space. And keep it really simple and light.

So just, you know, Marshall Goldsmith talks about a daily question in his book triggers, you know, what got you here won't get you there. so maybe just start with a daily question that's light not going to lead you to be take you into some negative deep place but it's just light enough to just oh yeah how often did I do x today or what what was the impact did you know what I mean and maybe have a daily question for a week or a month or whatever long is appropriate for you but start simple but think about what how do you normally build a habit that works and I know there's been that book is it atomic habits talks about starting start building something into your daily thing that you already do like while you're cleaning your teeth or you know if you have a meditation practice or if you journal every day or you know or if you go for a dog walk in the morning what could you insert in your daily practice that you're already doing yes doing something simple I think is a really good idea you describe coaching supervision as a sandpit to play in rather than a courtroom to judge, which I really like.

Can you explain what you mean by that? And how does coaching supervision fit as part of being a coach? Yeah. Let me start with the latter question first So coaching supervision is about us as coaches reflecting on our own practice reflecting on how we showing up with our clients where are our habits where are our trends where are our default settings you know where perhaps are we a bit blind to So it a space to reflect on all of that.

That quote, a sandpit in which to play rather than a courtroom in which to judge is from Robin Showette, who really took supervision from therapy into coaching. he also says a mystery to embrace rather than a problem to solve and for me in coaching supervision what I want to work with with coaches is how can we hold uncertainty how can we explore multiple perspectives how can we perhaps you know when we were kids if we built a sandcastle on the beach and we turned it out we just and it was rubbish we just stamp on it and build a new one but as adults we're like oh my god you know that was sandcastle I got you know has got to be perfect and we then can't see other perspectives or other ways of being playful or and so there's something for me about let's be a bit playful and ridiculous I often say if you had a really absurd ridiculous idea or if you could say anything in the world what would you say you know and often those things are not absurd and they are things that you could use and say to your clients but we put limits on our rules around how we think we can behave so that sound pit in which to play is let's build some other sound castles and if they've got a bit of a rough edge well let's just see what that that's all about that's interesting yes that different perspective and you're right as leaders we are very much trying to get everything right and of course we have moved on from the days of of hero leaders or we're moving on from that time but I think we still do our best to get things right and we get very offended when we are told that it's not right.

So learning about that feedback, but having that curiosity to accept that feedback gives you an opportunity to be better. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there's something for me there about leaders. If I could embrace that uncertainty, sitting with uncertainty, how many other more options might come available?

And I think sometimes as leaders, we get hooked into feeling that we've got to have the answer. We've got to have it now. We've got to be perfect all of the time. We can't make a mistake.

Well, none of that's human, is it? Absolutely. That's an AI robot. Yes, I agree.

Your book gives readers practical steps to grow their self-awareness. So before you go, can you share one way with us that will help leaders develop their self-awareness muscle if they've never done anything before and they want to start this practice, something to help them kick it off yeah start by asking yourself a simple daily question okay you don't have to write it down just have it in your head you know nancy klein always says we think better in the presence of a question so start start with with a question i also you know if you want to then get a bit more serious about it you know pick one of those ingredients and then make that a bit of a focus and i think that's a great starting point really brilliant julia what is next for you Anne Carden Consulting and your coaching work and what is next in your sphere of self-awareness and self-aware leadership?

Well first of all for my own self-awareness in fact I was having a conversation today with somebody I work with my own KHA supervisor but also been working with a therapist but my therapist and I've been on a journey for three and a half years I'm about to change to somebody new so there'll be some work to do there so we'll see where that leads to with a much more Jungian perspective I want to really get some work on unconscious around dreams and symbols and stuff so that's my personal thing also personally for me in my own self-awareness is about trying some new things I was I'm told myself this is my own belief which is we'll see whether this holds on that I'm rubbish at art so I'm going to try to do some painting we'll see where that goes I'm going to go to a paint and sip so that's my own journey at the moment and then with regards to card and consulting I have a bit of a wish to take the principles of coaching supervision or reflect on how we're showing up as a coach into the leadership space and work with small groups of leaders about them reflecting on their leadership practice so we call coaching a practice we call therapy a practice but let's think about leadership as a practice and how can you reflect on that space.

So maybe working with groups, I think that's going to be challenging with people from different corporates and companies because of sharing stuff and what have you. But that's a desire I've got and I'm sort of mulling over how to make that happen. Book writing perspective, no more complete books. I think I'm looking at potentially editing a book with somebody else.

I haven't really got all my thinking straight on that yet. I've just co-written another academic paper around continuing personal and professional to bring more of an element on self into our professional development space. So that's what's happening at the moment. Wow, that sounds really interesting, especially that bringing leaders together to have that opportunity and that space to think about leadership as a practice.

I think that is really interesting. So I will make sure that there is a link to both your website and your LinkedIn profile. So if people want to find out more about joining that group or those groups, wherever they may be, that would be something that I think watchers and listeners would be really interested in. And just a supplementary question whilst I'm thinking about it.

You've done a PhD, I've done a doctorate, PhD, same thing. When you came to the end of that, did you have this overwhelming desire to find another one and do something else? No. No, not do another PhD.

And I said I was never, ever going to do any more research ever again. But I have just agreed to work with a colleague of mine, Elizabeth Cross, and we're going to be exploring what value to place in coaching supervision and doing some qualitative work there. She's leading the research. She's taken the lead, but I'm going to be her research partner.

so having said I was never going to do any research I also said I was never going to write another academic paper so I've just ticked that off and now I've been doing a bit of research no don't want to do another doctorate but I think the books filled that void a little bit in giving me the space to sit think about concepts and write them down that sort of filled some of the stuff that I quite enjoyed about the PhD the reading reflecting on that then what that meant and then writing about it.

The book has done that. So I'm wondering once the book's out, whether I've noticed that void a bit more. Maybe book two. Wow.

I'm not going to say that. I think. Never say never. Yeah, never say never.

What about you? You're going to do another doctorate. Probably not a doctorate like you. A similar sense of I need to do something, but who knows what.

But I have promised myself that I will do a second book that will focus on the nine behaviours of the Self-Aware Leadership Compass. So that has been percolating for a little while. I had hoped to get it out by 2026, but who knows what the world will allow me to do. But there is a glimmer of a plan.

So maybe, we never know. Who's writing? Yes, well, who knows how the world will take it. And yeah, who knows what will happen between now and 2030.

Julia, I'm really pleased that you were able to join me and that we could have this conversation that both of us have really studied in-depth self-awareness and we're putting it together with leadership and what that means to leadership practice. It's been brilliant having a conversation and I'm really looking forward to reading your book when it comes out in October. All of the details will be in the show notes for watchers and listeners. But for now, Julia, thank you so much for joining me.

Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for joining me over the last three years. I hope you've enjoyed all 100 conversations with thinkers across the globe about self-aware leadership.

This is the last episode of the Knowing Self, Knowing Other podcast, but you can keep up to date with my weekly blog by subscribing at ksko.co.uk. A very big thank you to all of the guests that have joined me.

their contribution to the discussion about self-aware leadership has helped to create kinder, more respectful and creative workplaces right around the globe. And of course, a very big thank you to you listeners and watchers for tuning in. Looking forward to joining you on your learning journey.