#89: Shane Levine & Nico Muoio - Vibe Design 101

Speaker A: Do you have any, uh, crazy, like, early entrepreneurship stories?

Speaker B: I used to sell swords in middle school.

Speaker C: Wait, really?

Speaker A: Let's. Blow up the Internet.

Speaker C: Jump in. Let's. Let's start where it all began. Hoverboards.

Speaker A: Let's do it.

Speaker C: What's the story here?

Speaker A: Yes, I think it was in college. Um, I saw Casey Neistat had the hoverboard on one of his videos. I was always a big Casey fan. Do you guys remember Casey?

Speaker C: Yeah, of course.

Speaker A: Um, and we bought, like, three of them. They're really fun. So we, like, bought a pallet where we can make some money here.

Speaker C: Just immediately bought a palette.

Speaker B: Just. Casey started talking about something.

Speaker A: We bought a pallet from China. I think they're like 100 bucks each. Um, and then, like, it just immediately sold all of them to, like, our friends and kids in college and stuff. And then we started, like, an E comm site, and then, yeah, very quickly, just went viral.

Speaker B: So did you sell the full palette? Yeah.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah.

Speaker B: Really?

Speaker C: Ah, just a friends and family, no questions.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Like, were you guys hustling them around?

Speaker A: You couldn't get them?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Like, early 2015, you start the hoverboard thing, right? And we get introduced afterwards. First day of college, our friend Jonah from high school introduces us. Like, hey, this is Shane. He made like, $15,000 selling hoverboards. This is first day. And we start grinding on silly projects

Speaker A: from there on out. Yeah, it was pretty sweet.

Speaker C: And, uh, what eventually happened with that?

Speaker A: Yeah, so, um, very well known Shark Tank investor Barbara. Definitely Barbara will not be named.

Speaker B: We're not going to talk about Barbara right now.

Speaker A: Sent a cease and desist to, uh, to us. And for some reason, that person had a utility patent on the hoverboard.

Speaker B: Uh, really?

Speaker A: And, yeah, uh, they shut us down, dude.

Speaker C: Rest in peace. To that business. That was around the same time. So I was selling Grateful Dead stickers back in high school. You remember that? Um, totally. Dude made like 40 GS selling those. Just screwing around. And then nice little cease and desist from the Grateful Dead.

Speaker A: You got to frame the cease and desist.

Speaker C: I should have framed it.

Speaker A: Uh, those are like.

Speaker C: Is yours framed?

Speaker A: No, it does.

Speaker C: I gotta frame it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: I do have my first check that I ever got for writing framed from a newspaper. That was a good feeling.

Speaker B: Yeah, I should have saved that.

Speaker A: Nico, do you have any, uh, crazy, like, early entrepreneurship stories?

Speaker C: Oh, for sure.

Speaker B: I used to sell swords in middle school.

Speaker C: Yeah, like on the street or like.

Speaker B: Yeah, no.

Speaker C: Kids in class.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So they used to sell these, these magazines. They were called Bud K. You guys ever hear of Bud K?

Speaker A: No. No?

Speaker B: Okay, well, it's not a great start, but Bud K had these. It was like magazines and they would sell like cheap Chinese like katanas and like little switch, like switchblades. And they weren't like good quality. They were pretty poor quality. Um, but I'd go to kids at school and I'd be like, I'm gonna buy a katana.

Speaker A: Do you want, do you want one?

Speaker B: They're $20 and I'd be buying them for like 11 bucks. And then I'd go home with my parents and be like, can you buy me these three katanas? My mom would be like, no. And my dad would be like, yeah, let's, let's get this started.

Speaker C: Yeah, nice. I love it. Um, middle school.

Speaker B: Short lived though.

Speaker C: I was selling those duct tape wallets. A little more hard work.

Speaker B: Oh, I saw.

Speaker C: Unfortunately. Dude, did you make them too?

Speaker B: No, I had some girl who would.

Speaker A: Wait, you were delegating back?

Speaker C: Yeah, no, I still suck at delegating, bro. I'm still filled in those metaphorical wallets, unfortunately.

Speaker B: Yeah, me too now.

Speaker C: So you had another girl do it? She was in love with you? Yeah, she had a crush or something.

Speaker B: I, I'm not going to put words in her mouth. But yeah, that was also short lived. I feel like I was just a scumbag in middle school. Now that I think about it. I was just always selling shit.

Speaker C: I mean, I think you're just entrepreneurial. We were doing the same thing. I mean, all like early products kind of suck.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: You know, um, I think that's just the name of the game. And when you're young, figuring out, you know, you're going to have a lot of shitty products. I sold. I don't know if you even know about this. I sold little, uh, watches that had thumb drives in them. USB drives. I was like, these are the future, bro. I didn't know about Dropbox obviously, but I was like, this is the future. You're bringing your files everywhere you go and you can tell the time on your wrist.

Speaker A: You could probably like make a lot of money with that as like a bitcoin wallet or something.

Speaker C: Like throw a ledger in there.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, people would not.

Speaker C: Bad idea.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Hey, that's not a bad idea.

Speaker A: There you go.

Speaker C: Uh, what's the weirdest way you ever made money?

Speaker A: The weirdest.

Speaker C: I feel like, uh, your wallpapers one. I mean, that was pretty weird. Yeah, that's strange.

Speaker A: Yeah. The ipod wallpapers I think it was.

Speaker B: That's one of the coolest way you made money.

Speaker A: That is cool.

Speaker B: I don't know every way you've made money, but that's got to be up there.

Speaker C: It's got to be strange.

Speaker A: People love nostalgia, right?

Speaker C: Best drug in the world, dude.

Speaker A: Greg. Yeah. Um, yeah, so we designed some cool, uh, ipod wallpapers, put some stickers on it, and I put it up on Twitter and got, like, a ton of views, ton of likes. So I was like, all right, probably sell this. Yeah.

Speaker B: Was that all organic distribution, or did you.

Speaker A: So it's first organic, and then, um, like, a YouTuber saw it, and he's got, like, the best aesthetic, so he took, you know, some photos of it, put it up on his channel. That was the vibe.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah. And that was pretty crazy. When I saw it go viral. You sold thousands. And then I met Soho House with our mutual friend Randy, and I look over. He just has Shane's wallpaper on his phone. I'm like, dude, what are you doing, dude?

Speaker A: I'll never get over that feeling. When you see someone else have your product.

Speaker B: Best. Like, the best in the wild.

Speaker A: Oh, my God. Amazing.

Speaker C: When else I need to experience that?

Speaker A: In college, going to the library and, like, seeing a girl. Like, a sorority girl with a sticker.

Speaker C: Okay, all right. I did have that. I had that where you see your sticker in the wild, but I haven't had it. Didn't you see?

Speaker A: You want.

Speaker B: Didn't Elon use one of your memes?

Speaker C: I mean, yeah, but, like, the same thing, I guess. I want to walk into a coffee shop, bro, and see somebody on Meme Lord Tech. Eventually, eventually. Eventually it gets big enough. But I look around coffee shops, and they're all on fucking Canva or whatever.

Speaker B: I'm like, canva or Figma?

Speaker C: Let me get you on Gross. Yeah, exactly. You guys never use Figma, right, Shane?

Speaker A: Never.

Speaker C: Never use Figma. Never. Never. Um, let's jump into, uh, design. Uh, you know, I'm a big fan of nostalgic design. Obviously, Memoir tech is Super Windows 95 themed. You helped me with the logo. Uh, even Silly Valley, the new show. Like, the neon kind of sign, and also designed by Shane. Um, and all, like, my cyber patterns is super vapor, wavy, neony as well.

Speaker B: Um, why do you think, like, the

Speaker C: nostalgia just, like, sells? Like, besides it being a drug, like, why does nostalgia work?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question. There's probably something way deeper from, like, a psychological perspective that we could dive into. Like, we should probably get A psychology.

Speaker C: Like childhood, when you were happier before the problem.

Speaker B: That's exactly probably it. There's got to be something tied to that, to a time where the person was happier, Right?

Speaker C: Oh, that's so dark.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Or maybe people. Beautiful.

Speaker B: Poetic.

Speaker A: Really?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: What are you guys most nostalgic about in my childhood? Products or, like, different.

Speaker C: Oh, products or, like, of my childhood. I think, for me, dude, the early days of just playing Pokemon Fire. Ed as a kid with, like, nothing to do, like, no bills, like, no, uh, nothing in my mind, like, calling me, like, you know, just like. No. No darkness. Like, you know what I'm saying? You're. You're just a kid, like, not. Not saying, like, any bad things, but just, like, whatever stress or bills or, like. Yeah, I miss those for sure. And I guess maybe there is something about that that, like, reminds people of childhood.

Speaker A: I learned to read playing Pokemon.

Speaker C: Really?

Speaker A: That was pretty. Yeah. Because it's, like, so much reading.

Speaker C: It's a lot of reading.

Speaker B: I never did it.

Speaker C: Still can't read. Really? It's so much reading. Dude, you're right. I didn't even think about that. What about you? Like, are there any products that you're just straight up, I think, like the.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, for the ipod. That's why I did those wallpapers. Um, like, anything Game Boy, like Nintendo. That was crazy. And then, like, I don't know. Shrinky Dinks, like, arts. You never played those? Piece of plastic. You cut it up, you draw on it, throw it in, like the toaster. What? Shrinks? No. No. I don't even know.

Speaker C: Oh, damn, that's so funny.

Speaker B: Uh, Shrinky Dinks is a great name,

Speaker C: but you wouldn't recommend everybody do nostalgic design, right?

Speaker A: No, I. Well, I talked to you. I was like, yo, we gotta, like, modernize Meme Lord. Like, make it, like, really, you know, user focus, uh, and intuitive. And you're like, no, go yourself.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I want.

Speaker A: And I'm like, oh, okay.

Speaker C: I want to do my own thing. I think. I mean, that's a good way. You guys both work with clients, and sometimes the client just wants to do what they want to do, Right? For better or worse.

Speaker B: It's the best part of my job when clients have a gun to my. And they're like, do it.

Speaker C: Make it pop.

Speaker B: Make it pop.

Speaker C: Make it pop.

Speaker A: I'm that person now. I just, like, yell @chatgpt4.

Speaker B: Oh. Um.

Speaker A: I'm like, make it pop. How does it feel?

Speaker C: Evokes zero emotion. I want to jump into a little bit More so Nico, you run landing page design agency for E Comm especially. And Shane is more on the app side, uh, of brand design, uh, and UX ui, um, all those cool stuff, um, for you know, listeners, marketers, founders. Like, what advice do you guys have for design? Um, can just be simple stuff. Yeah, Yeah.

Speaker A: I think like if you're building a product right now, um, unfortunately, like the design world is with AI tools, it's gotten to a certain bar where you only really get one shot. Right. So it's like if you're going for the Meme Lord, like, you know, Windows 98 aesthetic, that's great. But if you're going to compete with big company, you're design like better look on par because users are just not going to give you a second chance, um, like they used to. So an MVP is kind of bullshit nowadays. That's my, um, my advice is like, make sure the core thing that you're working on is really tightened up, really well designed and like, um, you know, it doesn't mean you have to have like crazy animations. Like those might actually like, hurt. But, but you should, you should really think critically about like the way you're positioning your company from a design perspective and how it's going to be, um, you know, impacting the users and the product. So I think especially as we go more into like this AI world where you can just generate stuff, the AI slop design.

Speaker B: It's, you know, I think users do need something a little bit more polished. I mean there's definitely. We see some. We still see sites that are making tens of millions and it's garbage design and it bothers me every time. Um, but it's also like exciting when you see a brand that's doing really well with really poor design because it's like there's such an opportunity here. Um, but I think the, the place to be careful there is. Consumers are kind of like trained now to smell out dropshipping sites.

Speaker A: Oh, totally.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: My girlfriend knows what a drop shipping site is.

Speaker B: Yeah, My mom was like, this just looks like, just doesn't look like. It looks like they're going to send my info to China.

Speaker C: Like they, they will, they will. That's what they do. That is the side business.

Speaker B: Yeah, they're selling your data. Um, but yeah, I think like, as long as you don't look like a drop shipper, there's still a world where you can have like some sort of mvp. Um, but you need to, you need to definitely be more cautious than you did in like 2015, where, like, all you needed was a buy button.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's facts. I think that was actually part of my strategy was I know that with my budget and with what I'm doing, I can't compete with Figma. Right. With design. And so if you're like a Bootstrap founder, like, there is part of you where you could lean into, like the, I want to say crappiness, but like the janky scrappiness, you know, it works, uh, either angle that you want to go true.

Speaker A: If they're forgiving. Right.

Speaker B: The product is good.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: You're in way better. If the product's good and you have a brand, you're in way better shape.

Speaker C: Yeah. If it's. If it's part of the brand and people, you know, laugh with it and they enjoy it, I think it works. But I think, uh. Yeah, I worked on this post a while back with Danny Grant, founder, Jam.dev, who I think you've talked to. But yeah, she was saying, like, basically, like move fast and break things is basically dead because you only get, like, one shot nowadays. Like, our expectations, like now for a product the first time versus 10 years ago are just so much higher because we're all on the Internet, so much more. Yeah. And you think that's true for E Comm, too? So I never even thought about that with E Comm. I just think about with iOS.

Speaker B: Yeah. A hundred percent. I mean, I live in E Comm. I don't really ever think about it through the lens of iOS. Um, but like. Like, they call it the 100% zone. So, like, if you ever open your phone and like, the part of your screen that shows when you first open your phone, like, above the fold is really all that matters. Like, we've done split tests where, like, we're just changing that top fold and, like, it will make or break a page. Like, people don't scroll if that section's bad. So, like, if you have one area to focus on, it's like, as long as that's buttoned up, you can maybe get another two seconds of somebody's attention. But if it's garbage, no one's scrolling, it's probably the same thing you guys see with lenders. You guys are building.

Speaker A: Totally. I mean, uh, we're not doing as much, like, landing page stuff, but, like. Like an onboarding experience is the same thing, right? Yeah. People download an app, they want to hit that aha moment very quickly. And like, with some apps, it's not in the onboarding experience where you hit the aha moment. Right?

Speaker C: Yeah. So do you think the user has to do the aha moment themselves or can the onboarding show the aha moment?

Speaker A: Depends on the app right now, Um, I just got early access to this one, uh, app called ami. It's like a connection based networking app. So uh, for in, in person kind of connections. So let's say two people who don't know each other have mutual friend and they're both at a coffee shop. The mutual friend gets a notification and can introduce them. Right. That's so weird. I love it. So yeah, could download that app, you know, and not hit that aha uh moment of getting an introduction for six months.

Speaker C: Oh, is it just running in the background?

Speaker A: It's just running in the background.

Speaker C: That's crazy.

Speaker A: So their onboarding experience is beautiful. Really easy, you know, gets you to set up location notifications, really, you know, awesome animations and makes it really just like a great experience to like link everything. But you don't get the value maybe indefinitely until one of your friends. Yeah. So I think like people think about the onboarding experience as like, oh, uh, that's when it's going to hit. But realistically it's not going to hit for most products in that first download.

Speaker C: That's fascinating.

Speaker B: I also, I also think about the aha moment. Like most people come to landing pages, or at least in my world, probably in your world as well, with like some sort of confirmation that they're looking, they're looking for. So like people come looking for something that they've already made the decision on at the ad level. So like if someone sees something on Twitter, um, they've already made a decision that like, oh, this is cool, or this person's got something going on that I'm interested in before they get to the page. It's just now how quickly can they find that thing? That's what creates bounds is like the incongruency from where they came from to where they land. So I think that aha uh moment a lot of times happens not necessarily during onboarding, but like before onboarding where they like see maybe the app store of like what are those pictures called? Yeah, I'm sure you design them all

Speaker A: the time, those apps or screens.

Speaker B: Yeah, like I'm sure something like there is where people like really think like, oh, this is the app I want. And then as long as it, they open the app and it actually does that, then they're in way better shape than the people who have a, uh, complete disconnect.

Speaker C: So how scientific Are you getting with this? Like, you're measuring everything, right?

Speaker B: Yeah, we measure every. I mean, data makes like, all of our decisions and like, we have everything connected.

Speaker C: So, like, talk to me. What does. What does that mean? Like, what tools? Anything. Anything that you recommend, especially for maybe newbies doing that stuff.

Speaker B: Intelligence is a great tool to Shopify app. Um, we talked about one similar in the design space, the iOS space. But, um, yeah, we use intelligence to just split traffic and then there's a ton of data on the back end that we're pulling from there. Um, where like, GA is set up to like, help us figure out where are people dropping off. We'll use like, hotjar.

Speaker C: Like a. Oh, I'm using hotjar now.

Speaker B: Really?

Speaker C: So I'm using hotjar. It creates heat maps and stuff like that. So I use it for meme Lord. And literally what you said, where I realized the, uh, uh, whatever I was, it was dumb. You know, it's my first time building and like, the top 20% went on mobile, like, wasn't showing.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And like, it was just empty. And so I just moved it up and like, saw conversions go up. I was like, yeah, yeah, I probably should have set that up like six months ago. Like, yeah, yeah, it was like something like that. Like, I'm m not using the heat map rage clicks as much, but something simple like that was super powerful.

Speaker B: Like, yeah, heat maps are huge. Also, like, the qualitative stuff as well. Like, we work with a lot of brands that run ads on Facebook. And like, we'll read. We have AI bots now that read all the comments that come in on ads. And it's like, well, how congruent is the experience that someone's expecting from these ad account comments to, like, where they land? Like, if someone's asking the same question over and over in an ad comment, like, say you're looking for like, I don't know, an iPhone case. And then everyone in the comments that that ad is like, does it fit iPhone 15? Is it fit iPhone 15? It's like, there's a good chance that landing page is not answering that question. That's why they're commenting. So then we have to figure out, how do we get that question answered.

Speaker C: That's so smart.

Speaker B: So it's like the actual data of like, Hot Jar and Google Analytics. But then there's also the side of things where it's like, we have to, like, the better we understand our customer, the better we're gonna do.

Speaker C: Does it ever hurt when you see when you build a really sick landing page. And the data's just, uh, your darlings, right?

Speaker B: Yeah. It's disgusting.

Speaker C: I hate that feeling.

Speaker B: It keeps me up at night.

Speaker C: I hate that feeling. Or when I. I mean, in my world, if I tweet something that I think is a banger and it doesn't bang, it's like, yeah, delete. And it hurts, you know?

Speaker B: Yeah. When there's, like, a really ugly site and, like, a really pretty page, and, like, I put my heart and soul into the pretty page, and, like, the other one was just like, sure, we could try that. And then it just crushes.

Speaker C: And that one works better.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: Sometimes you can't predict it, so you got.

Speaker B: I don't care, though. I mean, at the end of the day, it's like, whichever one makes more money. It does hurt.

Speaker C: Yeah, it does hurt. That's fair. Yeah. Yeah. That ever happened with you?

Speaker A: Yeah. I think a lot of the stuff we do is not as qualitative or. Sorry, not as quantitative. Um, so, you know, it's. It's more like figuring out, like, what best, um, design style fits the brand or some of the stuff we do. Like, you know, an onboarding paywall test is very qualitative. So we'll figure out, you know, like,

Speaker C: revenue cat and stuff.

Speaker A: Yeah, revenue cat. You know, um, super wall, you know, testing stuff, like, very, very much like AB style.

Speaker B: Um.

Speaker A: But, yeah, I think, like, that's the hard part about design. Right. Is, like, if it invokes a feeling, like a founder is going to want to go with that.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and it might not necessarily make more money.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: So.

Speaker C: Yeah, it. I mean, exactly. Exactly. I've had people tell me to change the designs and whatnot, but I. I like the Windows 95. It's the vibe that I like, you know, it's whatever. And, uh, now building a whole brand around it, you know?

Speaker A: Um, Nico, how did you get into design?

Speaker C: Yeah, I was going to ask the same question. I feel like you got to talk about the board game stuff a little bit, man.

Speaker B: We should probably.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, I have to, um. Yeah, it's my one trick pony, that game. Um, but no, I started a design agency in high school, which was like. I took a design class. I mean, I was always, like, kind of good at, like, art, like, when I was, like, a kid. Um, so I took a graphic design class, like, freshman year of high school, and they had, like, a T shirt competition where they're like, whoever designs the nicest T shirt, like, the school used for all the students for like, whatever it was, I think it was like, the band and the winner gets a hundred bucks. So I was like, okay. Like, I can win money. And I was, like, 14. So I was like, okay. I did this whole design, crushed, ended up winning the competition, made the 100 bucks. And I was like, oh, well, if they paid me a hundred bucks, I could probably find someone, like, someone who paid me way more than a hundred bucks. This is nothing. Um, so then I would just, like, skip class and just learn Illustrator, Photoshop. Probably the same thing you did.

Speaker A: 100 bucks for a first design contract is a lot. Yeah, mine was five. Five bucks?

Speaker C: Yeah, for those YouTube thumbnails. Dude. Writing back in, I won a poetry contest. Like a Mother's Day poetry. Got, like, a Chipotle gift card. Hell, yeah. That was, like, my first writing payment.

Speaker B: That's great.

Speaker C: Back in high school.

Speaker B: Chipotle. Yeah. I'd probably do work for that now.

Speaker C: I was happy for that. Yeah, I would work for that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: If Chipotle is listening, let me know. I'll work for a burrito.

Speaker C: Sponsor us, dude. They need a brand comeback, so. Yeah, that's funny. And so you, uh, you started designing stuff then?

Speaker B: Yeah, so I just went on YouTube and just would copy.

Speaker C: How do you, like, find people, though?

Speaker B: Um, so, like, my. I think one of my first business was, like, my uncle had a doctor's office. I, like, rebranded their doctor's office built on a website. And I was like, okay, great. And then one of his patients came in and was like, who. Who did this site? And then he was like, oh, it was my nephew, and he's like, 16. So then I went and did their site, and then I went to, like, they talked to some karate school, and then I did a karate school, and the karate school talked to a plumber, and it was just, like, referral. But I had, like, a good, decent amount of clients in high school. I do their logos and things like that. Um, I mean, I was making probably $1,000 every six months. Like, it was not a good business, but, like, I was.

Speaker C: When you're 15, like, that's enough to take a girl on a date.

Speaker A: And a couple.

Speaker B: I was rich, dude.

Speaker C: That's all you need, you know? Yeah. When you're 16.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Uh, that's. That's pretty fire.

Speaker B: And then I convinced the school to. To let me do all the T shirts. So, like, I would do all the. And then I was like, okay, I'm getting paid, like, 25 bucks for one of these designs. So I was like, all the money's in the printing. So then I went and found a manufacturer in. I don't remember where it was, but we made, like, the local print shop would make shirts for, like, eight bucks. And I was like. I said to the principal, I was like, if I could do this for six, would you guys let me do this and I'll do the design for free? And they were like, of course. So I just went online, found someone who was making them for, like, 554 bucks. And then I started making thousands because I was doing all the club T shirts, all the sports, all the.

Speaker C: Every high school.

Speaker B: Yeah, dude. Yeah. That was, like, my first, like, real business. And, like, I didn't have a job. I've never had a job ever. Like, I never worked in high school. I would just do this.

Speaker A: Love it. I worked at a print shop in high school.

Speaker B: Print shop.

Speaker C: I didn't know that.

Speaker B: And I was knocking you off.

Speaker A: I was making your shirts, dude.

Speaker C: That's so smart. I love that. I, uh. Yeah, if any. If any random teachers are listening to this, which they're probably not, but, like, give your kids, like, a little.

Speaker B: Give my 100 bucks for a T shirt design.

Speaker C: Dude, seriously, like, that little Chipotle contest was so motivating as a kid. It's like, oh, my words or my design. My art is worth something.

Speaker B: We should do this. I mean, we should deploy, like, five grand across the country for a bunch of small.

Speaker C: Have you heard about my Red Bull Fund?

Speaker B: No. Donating.

Speaker C: My friend who works at SpaceX, his, uh, Twitter username is Red Bull Futurist, because he's just, you know, a futurist who loves Red Bull.

Speaker B: Naturally.

Speaker C: And so we started this Red Bull Fund where we give micro grants, and by that, we just sen Red Bull to people working on, like, you know, hustling things. So we send, like, 10 bucks. I'm an LP in a fund where we just send Red Bull.

Speaker B: Is it on your LinkedIn?

Speaker C: Uh, is it on my LinkedIn? Not yet, but should be.

Speaker A: How many deployments have you made?

Speaker C: We've made, like, at least 50, actually. Goon maps. Goon Maps was made on a Red Bull microphone. So I ended up acquiring a company made on the font.

Speaker B: So dog food.

Speaker A: It's.

Speaker C: Dude, it's a. You know, a full cycle. Incredible. And memoir tech. We made the logo. So worked out true, you know, I

Speaker A: didn't get any Red Bull.

Speaker C: You didn't get any Red Bull? You want some Red Bull? I could get you some Red Bull. Yeah, I'll send the microphone. Um, but, yeah, I like that idea. I like it.

Speaker B: I'm actually down to do that.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Jason, did you start drinking Red Bull at your bachelor party?

Speaker C: I mean, that was bad. That was a lot of Red Bull. I think that was, that was, that was a full blown Red Bull. A thon.

Speaker A: I've never seen you drink, so I don't know that people could drink that much.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Challenge accepted. Shane. Um, no, I think I started drinking Red Bull a lot. Like when I was traveling for product hunt a lot. I was going back and forth to SF and they, oh, there was a lot of Red bull in the A16Z office. So I was taking some there and then, yeah, just like around in sf and I was exhausted all the time and so I just started drinking a ton. And then the bachelor party, I was like, we're not sleeping. We're going to fuck around. Like, you know, bought a bunch of Red Bull.

Speaker A: You got to tell people what we

Speaker C: did, what we did. So during the bachelor party, I had an idea. Uh, we, we turned it into a hackathon essentially, because I don't, I don't drink. I, you know, got sober five, six years ago now. And, um, we ended up hacking some together. Um, it was uh, basically like. So my grandpa died 2015, and he's like my hero. Super artsy dude, authority. Um, just like amazing guy, programmer, like, was making money online in the 90s kind of guy, like, creator kind of thing. And, um, I wanted to talk to him, you know, but he died. And, um, so we built an AI bot using, uh, 11 labs, telegram and bubble, um, that could talk to our, you know, dead relatives. That's crazy. Uh, we called it, what was it passed away AI and then changed it to heavenwireless.com and we decided not to launch it because a lot of reasons. One was like, the moral reasons of, like, are we like, preying on grieving people? Because that wasn't the goal, obviously.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And then other reason was, um. I thought this was like a weird reason, which is just like, does it change how you think about the person that died?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Like, if they start out of control, yeah. It's like kind of could ruin the memory. Um, it's good. But, yeah, I mean, it's interesting for every, uh, for every project that I have launched, and I'm sure the same goes with you guys is 20 projects you've never launched. Like, Dude, Prince, Mac Miller, like their archive of music.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Thousands. Like, you know, you only release a certain amount of projects. Like, it's like everything. Um, I Don't know. But yeah, that was how I learned Heaven Wireless.

Speaker B: Is that what it's called?

Speaker C: Yeah, it's good.

Speaker B: Great name.

Speaker C: Shane killed the design. It was beautiful.

Speaker A: Yeah, it was good.

Speaker C: It was beautiful. It was working. Uh, 11 labs did stop letting you upload other people's voices now though, so makes sense. I'm glad. We're glad we didn't launch it. Yeah, yeah, I was talking to somebody there about that and they were like, yeah, this is not good idea.

Speaker B: We're going to change the products. We can't

Speaker A: finding them.

Speaker B: Why they did that.

Speaker C: Yeah, we kind of fucked that one up but for everybody else. But it's all good. Um, but yeah, here's uh, other design tips for founders in general. Startup founders specifically. Um, maybe around AI products, vc, anything like that.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think like um, if you're going for the VC route, having like a well designed landing page, um, is like, it's just like steroids for VC investing. Like you're never going to want to like, you know, reach out to a VC or get a connect and have them go to a janky site. So I think we don't do like really landing pages as like a service, but find someone who does great.

Speaker C: Just even the design for the app at all.

Speaker A: Uh, I think like that. Yeah, for VC specifically that's really important. And I've talked to a bunch of my friends that have raised VC and like, oh yeah, you got to have a six.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: Design is a moat for sure. And I think it's becoming more that way every day. We were talking about this. I think we were texting out it. We're like uh, it was kind of a, uh, uh, it was my idea. That was kind of a, kind of a shitty way of thinking about it. But like design is like a hot girl where like if they have a worse personality, like

Speaker A: say you're like notion has great design. The products

Speaker B: are you saying it can make up for.

Speaker C: Yeah, the product's a little slow. Like you know, it's. The mind's not all there, but damn, that's some nice design. You know, uh, design like makes up for stuff. Like it adds something about.

Speaker A: It's more forgiving. Right. People, People be more forgiving. Um, and there'll also be like, uh, there'll be more inconsideration to use your product if it has good design. Right. So we're willing to go the extra mile for beautiful things. I am. I know a lot.

Speaker B: It's my Achilles heel for sure. Like you know how long I like we'll be working in, like, FigJam, just, like. Like mood boarding, or not even mood boarding. Just, like, building a mind map. And I'll be like, we have to make all the font the same color. And it seems like this is a waste of time.

Speaker C: You are clinically.

Speaker B: And I'm like, yeah, you're right, actually. So now we use the timer in the corner so that I can't be an idiot and be like, we got. They're just off a little bit. We need to make them straight.

Speaker C: So you're like the girl with the highlighters just in fig.

Speaker B: Yeah. That's very disrespectful for you to say that to me, but in fig jam.

Speaker C: Yes, but it's true.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Don't ever say that again.

Speaker C: But, yeah, no, I. Dude, I'm the same way in, like, uh, in notion sometimes. Uh. I hate to admit it, but I am, um, when it comes, like, content calendar, like, I need everything. I need a color coded. I want. I just want to. I'm the highlighter girl, too.

Speaker B: Yeah. Then you meet someone who's worth, like, a billion dollars and their computers from, like, 10 years ago, it's missing a key.

Speaker C: It's a notes app.

Speaker A: Their phone is old, and they're just like, yeah.

Speaker B: They're drawing on a piece of paper, and I'm, like, getting so mad. I'm like, you should see my notion, dude. It's got graphs and they're like, yeah, well, you're poor.

Speaker C: It's, uh. You're not allowed in Gramercy Park. Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's my, like. Yeah. And I just put my head down and walk away.

Speaker A: You should sell the notion template. Yeah, the rich people will not buy it.

Speaker C: Yeah, the rich people will not buy it, but everybody else will.

Speaker B: Yeah, it'll be all the other poor people like me who focus on design instead of product.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A: That's crazy to me that, like, the notion template, uh, world is just.

Speaker C: Dude, micro economy, bro. It's crazy. I mean, it makes sense. That's actually how I got started with notion was four years ago. I saw somebody post about a second brain.

Speaker B: Did you buy one?

Speaker C: I bought it.

Speaker B: I bought one.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: It's the only time I ever bought a notion that was a second brain.

Speaker C: I bought it and it got me started, actually. Like, it was a great way to hook me. It was like selling it. Selling a template or whatever. I've been on notion since for my content calendar from templates.

Speaker B: Did you. Do you still use the second brain you bought?

Speaker C: I, uh, now Just use Readwise, which uploads all my Amazon reading or all my Kindle highlights there. So I have like the second brain through that and like all my articles and stuff. So like, uh, now I have an automated second brain or whatever. But yeah, I use that all the time, like as a writer. Super helpful to have all my quotes there.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's huge.

Speaker C: 60 days free@readwise.IO backslash.

Speaker A: Jason, that's actually a great like product led growth like strategy.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: It's like if you can get someone to pay a dollar to a creator to use your product, like they're not going to leave. Right? They literally paid money to use.

Speaker C: Dude, I've never, I've never left since.

Speaker A: So, um, if you can figure out how to get creators to sell meme

Speaker C: templates, that's a tough one. But there is. I could see that for some of the harder stuff around like video, potentially like we, we figure out some way to do that where we. I could see that. I could see something working if, if there's like an animated version, something of the sort. I don't know.

Speaker B: Yeah, sticky.

Speaker C: Yeah, super sticky. What's the stickiest app you've ever used?

Speaker A: The Notes app.

Speaker C: Notes app?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Are you just og Notes forever? I think.

Speaker B: Are you the guy I was talking

Speaker C: about a minute ago?

Speaker A: I might.

Speaker C: Oh fuck, he's that guy.

Speaker B: Yeah, you're the asshole. Oh, you're that asshole.

Speaker A: The guy who's a killer. I think the Notes app is great design.

Speaker C: I like craft, dude. You can't find anything.

Speaker A: That's. But that's the point. It's not for like saving and like uh, categorizing. It's. You have an idea, you open the Notes app, you write it down.

Speaker B: You like Notion better?

Speaker C: Yeah, I like Notion for content calendars. I like Notes for just writing down an idea. I had an issue where I'd have an idea and then I'd be like, which notion page do I type it in? 10 minutes later, gone.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Never to be my boss at ah,

Speaker A: Previous uh, company I worked for was the head of product for Notes and I think like another like to do lists for Apple. And he was like, you know, these. The product team will come and they'll be like we need to add like this type of folder structure and tagging and this, that. And the designers will just be like no. Yeah.

Speaker B: What did they do all day?

Speaker C: They just chill, bro.

Speaker B: They just say no.

Speaker C: They're paid to say they're just in

Speaker B: a room with laptops, just.

Speaker A: But it's actually great Right. Because it diverse, like it makes them different from all the other tools that are like super featured dense.

Speaker B: Is it craft? Is that the other one?

Speaker A: Craft's good.

Speaker B: That's the one I use. I don't remember.

Speaker C: You know, that's fair. I love it. Honestly, I respect that a lot more. The fact that they're purposely saying no and not just being lazy. Because I always thought they were just lazy fucks.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker C: And um, they're purposely saying that makes me respect it. That's like minimalist. They're on a diet kind of vibe.

Speaker B: Purpose.

Speaker C: I like that. I like that. You know, I thought Apple was just like they just lost their.

Speaker A: I mean Apple is definitely falling off their horse a bit.

Speaker C: But that's been sad to see from a design perspective. You guys agree with that?

Speaker B: Like.

Speaker C: Mhm. Like growing up, we, we kids younger than us, they never saw Steve Jobs. Like, that's sad.

Speaker A: That's crazy.

Speaker C: That's really sad. Like I, I only tear up about like three people being him, Mac, Miller and my grandpa. That's it. And my dogs, childhood dogs. But like those are the only people, like I've like literally teared up. It just makes me sad because he was like such a fucking visionary.

Speaker B: He was a killer.

Speaker C: It's like there's no one like that. Yeah. And kids younger, you know, they just get to see Tim Cook be like, this is a Great product. IPad 6.794.

Speaker B: The interview about the magic mouse, like, do you think this is a good design? They gave an opportunity to be like, well, it's not great. And he's like, it's beautiful. It's perfect.

Speaker C: What is that the one with the plug?

Speaker B: Yeah, the plug on the bottom. I use it every day and I love it.

Speaker C: You still use that?

Speaker B: Yeah, Uh, I can't get away from it.

Speaker C: That's insane.

Speaker A: That's.

Speaker B: Yeah. That's the stickiest thing in my life. Probably with me since I was like,

Speaker A: it's sticky because he's like eating donuts.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's why it's sticky.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah, I've had it for you.

Speaker A: Wash it off, dude.

Speaker B: Yeah, I don't even have to lift my hand. It's always on. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, do you uh. Board game stuff?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Are you cool talking about that a little bit?

Speaker B: Yeah, we talk about it.

Speaker C: We've referenced it here.

Speaker B: Yeah. I've just hinted at it.

Speaker C: It's how you've learned. It's how you learn, right?

Speaker B: Yeah. So I was. So I had that. The design agency in high school, I'd make Teachers, things like that. And then I, um. Have you heard of the game Exploding Kittens?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. Have you heard of Exploring Kittens? Yeah, just Russian roulette. It's a great game. I saw them do $7 million on Kickstarter in 30 days. Um, and I was 17, and I was like, oh, I could do that. How every good business starts. It's like, oh, I could do that. So I sprinted to make a board game. I went home and I spent, like, nights coming up with a board game. It ended up being a dirty charade. It was like a party game, like cards against humanity. Had a baby with Taboo or Catchphrase or something like that. Um, sprinted to make the game, used all the design knowledge I had to build something that was what I thought prettier. Um, spent all my money on a video for a Kickstarter and then launched the Kickstarter. And then day one, like, zero sales. Day two, zero sales. Day three, I had two sales. It was like, my mom and my grandma. Fuck. Okay. Day four, I was, like, in shambles. Like, this is the worst decision of my life. Like, why did I do this? I dropped out of college for it. It was like a huge thing. Um, and then I was like, well, I have to figure out something. Like, I can't just watch this fail. Um, so then I started researching Google Ads, and I spent, like, all nighters for, like, a week or not. Google Ads, Facebook ads. Um, learned to write ads, create ads, launch ads, built landing pages, and within the. That first 30 days, ends up doing like, 14,000 in ads in, uh, sales, which.

Speaker C: Like, from 100,000 in ads.

Speaker B: Yeah, from $200 million in ads. No, it was. It was profitable, but it was, like, barely. Um, and I remember being like, oh, wow. Like, this is kind of like magic. Like, now I have. I could just put more money in this Facebook machine and I get more money out from this. This Kickstarter machine.

Speaker C: Um.

Speaker B: Um, so Kickstarter campaign funded. Learned a ton about Facebook ads during that time.

Speaker C: Wait, so you ran Facebook ads for Kickstarter? Yeah, I didn't even know that you could do that.

Speaker B: I wouldn't do it again. I mean, there's no pixel day. Like, I had no idea what was working, what was what. There was no attribution. I was just, like, shooting and just hoping more money.

Speaker C: More money.

Speaker A: It's working.

Speaker B: Yeah, but it was also like, 2014, 2015, where CPMs were, like, cheap and, like, Facebook just put money into the machine. And it worked. Um, with enough of that was, uh, off the Races.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: So you started growing that and took it all over the place.

Speaker B: Yeah. So we ended up growing it for six years. After that, we launched an iOS app that, like, went along with the game. So we had, like, an easy button, like, you know, like the button that they made from Staples. We had one of those in the game, which was, like, expensive to make. So I was like, oh, I'll just build an iOS app that does the exact same thing as this possibly one, and I'll save three bucks per game. It was, like a huge thing. So we launched this game. We launched the iOS app just to play with the physical board game. We launched some kids games. Uh, it was great. Um, but we ended up selling on Amazon, Um, and Amazon. I don't know if you guys ever run ads or done anything with Amazon. It's terrible. The worst place to work with. Um, awful. And when you run Facebook ads to Amazon, there's no attribution, so you don't know what ads people are clicking on, which ones are buying from. There's nothing there. Um, so I started building these interstitial pages, these landing pages that would pixel people on the way to Amazon. So I could see. I put affiliate links all over these landing pages. So I could see, okay, this affiliate link is getting a lot of sales, which means the Facebook ads that are running to that page are working well. Um, and that's when I got really good at landing pages, obviously. So, like, conversion rate optimization. I found that depending on where the button was and what the page looked like and what they saw before they got to that page, there's a higher likelihood that they would check out on Amazon. Um, I just got addicted to that. And then the game ended up doing really well. It was like one of the better selling games on Amazon. And then we got acquired, which was super exciting. Um, and then I was like, well, this interstitial landing page CRO thing I love. Um, and now that's why that's what I do.

Speaker C: Uh, what are you finding most of your clients are driving sales from? Is it mostly ads? Facebook ads still?

Speaker B: Yeah. I think 98% of traffic across all of our brands is Facebook.

Speaker C: Wow, that's wild.

Speaker B: We have some bigger brands that are, like, dabbling in TV, but it doesn't touch Facebook TV.

Speaker C: Yeah. What about, like, TikTok or no.

Speaker B: TikTok? Yeah, a little bit. Um, you'd be surprised, though. Like, TVs like, it went from being, like, super on unapproachable. It's like, oh, you need $100,000 budget but, like, now you can launch, like, Hulu ads.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And like, TV ads. Like actual TV ads for, like, two, three grand. It's, like, really not a ton. Yeah, that's. And the CPMs are so cheap because everyone's on Facebook.

Speaker C: That's going the other way. Facebook ads are so expensive now. The CPMs, right. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B: It depends on the niche and the brand, but, yeah, that's fascinating.

Speaker C: Um, and I know, uh, you're working with a lot of dog brands, you said, as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, a lot of dog brands. A lot of. A lot of dog brands. Yeah. I grew up with a company that sells, like, dog crates. They're awesome dog chews.

Speaker C: You. I had somebody on, I guess it'd be last week in podcast world. Yeah. Two weeks ago. And, uh, worked with the company doing like, 7 to 10 mil a year, uh, selling caskets.

Speaker A: Oh, wow.

Speaker C: I was like, that's dark, but I love it. That's crazy to think about. A lot of meme marketing, actually. Yeah.

Speaker B: Really?

Speaker C: They're big, mean. Are they really? Dude, you gotta have a dark sense of humor in that business, baby. You know?

Speaker B: So, uh, if I die and someone buys my casket off with me, I'm gonna be so pissed.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: That'll be because of me, because I'm working with them.

Speaker B: Yeah. So make me happy that one of Jason's memes bought me my casket.

Speaker C: It's better than, like, buying you the hitman that.

Speaker B: Yeah. That took me out. Yeah.

Speaker C: Meme Lord hitman. Yeah, that's.

Speaker B: That's your next venture.

Speaker C: Yeah, dude, I already got the Meme Lord mafia, so. Might have to be.

Speaker B: Do you?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Oh, dude, we got the mafia. We got the mafia. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what about, uh, how are you guys thinking about content growing, your agencies? You guys both, uh, pretty. Pretty heavy posters on the. On the linkedins, the Twitters. What are you guys thinking about that stuff these days?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think. I think. Yeah. Growing organically through content is huge. Like, it's, you know, it's basically just ads, like, you're talking about, except for

Speaker B: it doesn't cost, except it's free.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: I love organic marketing so much.

Speaker A: And you go viral and that's. That's.

Speaker C: Dude, you've had some viral crazy designs.

Speaker A: Have. That's been fun.

Speaker C: Your Instagram with, uh, your, uh, bank account attached.

Speaker B: That was a good one.

Speaker A: Yeah, that was good. The unhinged design era. I think it's finished.

Speaker B: Yes. Do you think? I think so.

Speaker A: But it was definitely a fun ride.

Speaker B: That Instagram one was.

Speaker C: So. I think unhinged design by themselves finish. But unhinged apps. That's silly. Valley True. Actually building them is the next level. Taking what you and Soren were doing a year ago and then building them.

Speaker A: So you're thinking like, Goon Maps.

Speaker C: Exactly. Goon maps. DuoFoco.com. like, dude, all the crazy that me and my friends are building for the show is literally like, dude, yesterday I went on Bolt New and this will be in the show, and I literally, I. I told it so. So I was posting flyers for Duo in Chelsea.

Speaker A: Yeah, I was with you. Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah, I was posting flyers, and, uh, I was like, oh, is this legal to do that? And, uh, I was like, oh, I should build an app for that to find out, like, if your questionable business decisions are legal. So I just, like, typed it in. It was. So I literally own wasallthislegal.com like, the Jordan Belfort was. And yeah, was all this legal.com just goes to that. And now it's an AI chatbot with the Jordan Belfort meme. And you just ask, is this legal? Like, shit like that. Like, now that it's so cheap and fast, like, you don't. It's not just the unhinged design. You could, like, literally get sued.

Speaker A: So, like, in court. Like, this app, it's not legal to make it happen.

Speaker C: It says. Not a real lawyer, but yeah. So content. Um, I mean, yeah, I feel like, uh, dude on Twitter definitely been. Been slaying with that stuff.

Speaker A: Appreciate that. Yeah, Twitter is, like. It's interesting because you can post something. It'll go mega viral. Like, I've had tweets like the Apple, uh, pay double or nothing. Where, like, you pay. It'll either be double or free. Uh, which I think is a great idea.

Speaker C: But no money from, right? Or, like, maybe one. One, you know, lead or something.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, no leads.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker A: 5, 5.7 million impressions and another 10 million impressions on TikTok, and no leads. It's like.

Speaker C: And then you have one Tweet that, like, 100 views or, like, 100 views. It's like the right person sees it or it gets sent. Dude, the other day, like, you got tagged in something that landed. I was like, three leads. You didn't even tweet it.

Speaker A: I had three calls this morning from leads from that. So people just. Someone tagged me in, like, uh, a. Who's the best designer?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's for, like.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker C: Yeah. And cracked.

Speaker A: So, yeah, it's that. That stuff can go. And, like, you just got to take advantage of those moments. And so you need to spot the moments where, like, okay, this is going to be like a very high converting moment. Like, I need to do what I can to, like, be.

Speaker B: Maximize it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, and so I think that's. That's like something you learn over time.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: So, like, someone was asking, um, there's this app called Honk. This really great designer Benji Taylor made an app. It, uh, went really viral in the design community. And then he shut it down. And of course, as a designer, I took so many screenshots of the app. And so someone's like, oh, they've got to release this app, like the. So that other designers can learn from it. I'm like, oh, I'll just put a gumroad link up with all the screenshots that I have in my camera roll. And I got like a thousand people for my newsletter.

Speaker C: So I could just have like all the screenshots of your deleted tweets that were too cancelable and then put them in a gum. No, I love that, though. I saw somebody else do that. He's the founder of, um, Anti Metal and he got the original Facebook book, right? And then he just turned that into a lead magnet. It's like you find something that is hidden, rare, like some weird secret, like it's past the lead magnet. It's like a. Like a secret, secret shit.

Speaker B: So both of those should be run through the. Is it legal?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Maybe there's something there. Like that Facebook book. It's like. Well, I guess because he was selling a PDF of it, right?

Speaker C: I think he was giving it for free. Oh, yeah. Email. Gated PDF.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: That guy.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Someone checking let us know it's actually legal. I doubt both of them either legal.

Speaker A: The Anti Metal stuff is he's a marketing.

Speaker C: They did the guy, he's really good. Yeah, he did the pizza stuff where he sent pizzas to hundreds of VCs and founders that was really smart branded pizzas. And he said he, uh, he made like. I know he spent around 15k. They got like a million at least in pipeline or sales from that.

Speaker B: I wonder if we could do stuff like that. Like, I wonder if I just sent a pizza to every E comm brand in New York City.

Speaker A: So everyone's like, cold email, bro. You gotta do cold email. It's like, you got pizza, you got to mail shit to people's houses. Because that has 100%.

Speaker B: It's a cheaper CPI.

Speaker C: Bombs. Incredible.

Speaker B: Yeah. Glitter bombs.

Speaker C: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker C: Glitter bombs. Yeah. That's what I meant.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: No, yeah, I agree. Dude. It's that next level dot com. Yeah. Is it. Was all this legal?

Speaker A: Was all this was all.

Speaker C: Because it's after you do it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Checked after.

Speaker A: You don't.

Speaker C: You never check before? Because then you might find out. Yeah. And it's like, oh, my good idea is gone. Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so what would you send for meme Lord. What would be your.

Speaker C: Or send memes in the mail. I've thought. I've thought about doing this before.

Speaker B: Like framed one.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: I mean I don't want to be framed ones or even like if it's a small list, I could do custom ones for the company or have somebody on my team do that.

Speaker A: Oh, that's a good idea.

Speaker C: I do think there is an arbitrage which I've thought about doing for a while and it's just on the back burner is like sending literal things in the mail. So my. My parents, you've met my mom and Jeff.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: They run small businesses. Kitchen, uh, remodeling and like kickboxing. They send so much mail because they're local businesses. Right. But like I could send a tailored campaign to like SF if I want to.

Speaker A: You could. Here's what you should do. You should put like a meme with like a company specific me to like one of your, you know, target companies have like chat ut, like paint it so it's like a beautiful like painted meme and then printed on like an actual canvas and then send it to them. Something they want a frame in there.

Speaker B: Oh, like 48 by like 60. It's like a huge. It's like a. Like the size that.

Speaker C: Yeah, maybe. Maybe I will try that for like a big client, for a big potential sponsor. It doesn't work for software because it's too cheap. But like for a big like potential sponsor or something. Yeah, like that or vc. Yeah, maybe just do that or maybe. Uh. Yeah, I like that. I like that.

Speaker A: It's a great idea.

Speaker C: What would. What would you send? I guess, I mean you could find like all the different e comm brands, I guess and then.

Speaker A: Yeah, I could send them.

Speaker B: Yeah. I, um.

Speaker C: M. I don't even know what.

Speaker A: Honestly. Just send HM them cookies. Like people just love like just like levain cookies.

Speaker C: Oh, those things are good.

Speaker A: Just send them and like put your logo on the box.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's not a bad one.

Speaker C: Um, while. While we're here as well, I want to talk about scaling a bit. You guys are both two naturally creative people who have like, literally what you said earlier by Design force yourself to be more organized as you're scaling your agencies to really. I don't want to say, but high revenue. And you guys are doing great. Um, how have you kind of thought about that? I know we've talked a ton about this. You've taught me a ton. Uh, thank you. If you want to share some. Share some stuff. Yeah.

Speaker A: I think creative people are inherently less organized, what I've found in the world. So I think figuring out a way to just build more organization. Um, and really what that boils down to is systems.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: So it's like a simple, uh, system I have that so I never lose my keys is when I come home, I put my keys in the same place right in my front door. Never lost my keys. Thank God.

Speaker C: Eric has been trying me to do that. But now that you said that, I'm gonna.

Speaker A: There you go. Right.

Speaker B: So, like, not because she said it, because Shane said it on a podcast.

Speaker C: Smart guy said it on a podcast. Doesn't matter. It was my podcast.

Speaker B: Fancy jacket and glasses on, and I

Speaker A: listen to anything he says.

Speaker C: Oh, they're clear glasses, too. We gotta do it. Uh, what other systems?

Speaker A: I think, like, that's the kind of systems that you need to think about is like, not just like this giant system where it's like, okay, the designer is going to do this, and he's going to pass it off, and through this crazy AI pipeline. It's like, how do you create small systems so that, like, fires don't happen?

Speaker B: Checklists.

Speaker A: Right. It's like, lists have been huge.

Speaker B: I think for. For us, we've really. Early on, because I'm not organized, I realize that that's one of my. My weak points. So I would spend a ton of time. Like, I enjoy operations when I'm doing it, but, like, it's just not something that comes to me. Um, so I would spend a ton of time, like, a whole weekend building out, like, all these SOPs and all these processes and all this, everything to

Speaker C: like, make it really, really scalable with a nice font.

Speaker B: Yeah. Beautiful font, beautiful everything. The videos are great. M. And then we'd like. We'd start doing it the next week, and then by, like, Wednesday, we'd be like, actually, this. This doesn't work. This needs to be tweaked, and this is broken. I'd be like, all right, we'll just throw the whole thing out, and there goes 72 hours of my life. Um, but now I've come to realize, like, okay, I'm just gonna, like, I just shoot Looms and like make checklists in notes and I just slack them. And then I'm like, okay, well now we've been doing this for two weeks and it's working really well. Now we can have someone on the team. Just built this into like an actual proper training.

Speaker C: Dude, I love that. Looms have saved me so much time.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Especially my team is overseas. Most of them. Yeah. And so like, if you're not awake at the same time, just send a loom. It's so good. Um, a book that Shane recommended, Work the System by Sam Carpenter. I read that when I was starting Meme Lord, I guess seven, eight months ago, poured through that thing in a weekend. It was like breaking everything down into systems. The way that he explained it was so cool. Where like, if you go to a restaurant and the line is too long, right. There are like four different subsystems that could be broken. Like, is the, uh, is, uh, the marketing system broken? Uh, because like they're, they're just getting too much. Is like the hiring system broken where, like, they're not getting enough waiters? It's a chef system broken. It's like the food system broken where they're not getting the food. There's all these subsystems. Right. Um, so something that I did when, after reading that book was like breaking it down when I, when I hired a, ah, new employee or whatever. Like, here's a checklist of what we're doing. Everything like, here's pre YouTube templates. Like, so helpful.

Speaker B: I gotta read that book.

Speaker C: It's a good book.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, I have a ChatGPT, like a custom GBT where like you put in your daily fires. Like, okay, this thing happened and I wasn't prepared for it and like this client messaged me and I had to like go and like do a bunch of things and you just add it all in and then it tells you, okay, these are the systems you need to build, um, to like fix these in the future. And then you just add that stuff to your to do list. And then slowly over time, you have a machine, uh, that suppresses fires.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's great.

Speaker B: I've been doing that with like, when clients have critical feedback or like an ask that's like kind of out of scope and it's like difficult to like, manage. And like, sometimes those emails will take you like 30 minutes when like, they're like, oh, can you do this? And like, you like the person, you don't want to say no, but like, you kind of have to say no. So Like, I've spent time now with, like, when I write a message, it took me 40 minutes. I'm like, this is valuable. And, like, I'm going to need this again at some point. And I have a notion, doc, where it's just hundreds of Slack screenshots from, like, hey, can we. Can we stop this test early? And I'm like, well, that's not statistically significant. Like, we can't really call this off. Um, so that when I have other team members who need to answer these questions, they could just go through the, like, library of Nico slacks.

Speaker C: I just have fuck off. Fuck off meme.

Speaker A: Yeah, just like, you reply with the slack refund confirmation.

Speaker C: Yeah, I love that. That's so smart. Uh, Shane, I know you do stuff as well. Talking to ChatGPT. Uh, whenever I asked Shane for advice, he's like, just ask ChatGPT. Why are you asking me? I was like, yeah, you're right. Honestly, why?

Speaker A: I don't think I used to read that much. And then these AI chat bots came out, and now it's like, I'm just, like, talking to that all day. Like, how do we do this?

Speaker C: It's so helpful.

Speaker A: How do I do that?

Speaker C: Yo, I was with Jared, uh, the other day, and, you know ChatGPT has video. Did you know this? You know how it has voice? There's a video button.

Speaker B: What do you do with that?

Speaker C: So we were trying to figure out a coffee maker because we're retarded. And he just goes, you know Jared's voice. Yeah, yeah, how do I do this? You know? And. And we figure it out. We're like, oh, that's how you use a coffee maker. And we made the coffee. And like, that sounds dumb, and it is because we're dumb, but you can imagine like, okay, like, my car's broken, right? I was like, oh, They've not publicized this at all because it automatically goes to voice. It doesn't go to video. But he could see everything. It's crazy.

Speaker B: One time I walked down the street and I was talking to it, like, as if I was having a conversation with someone on the phone. I was like, I hope no one realizes this is not a real human dude.

Speaker C: I've done that too. Walked around the park on a nice day just talking to ChatGPT.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's like a loser. Like, a real loser.

Speaker C: Hey, at least was it a girl's voice or a guy's voice?

Speaker B: I. I switch it up every time because I don't want to get used to it.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, that Makes sense. You want to hurry yourself.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Also feels like cheating a little bit with the girl, so I tend to go to the guys.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Some loyal.

Speaker C: You know, I like it.

Speaker B: I don't.

Speaker C: I just do a different.

Speaker B: I feel like I'm bragging.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. I, um.

Speaker C: When I was driving down to Florida, I got like really bored just listening to music and just started asking questions. Yeah. It's like, how does my engine work?

Speaker B: Yeah, I don't love doing that.

Speaker C: Yeah, I love it. It's just endless knowledge. I was showing my dad the other day, he's like, oh, I could see how this is helpful. Like, I'm not going to use.

Speaker B: Yeah, good for you, son.

Speaker C: Good for you. Like, I already know how cars work because I'm a six year old man who has ancient wisdom taught to me by a World War II veteran who is my father. It's like, well, fuck you. You didn't teach me that thing, man. You know, you're too busy working.

Speaker B: So.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's all good.

Speaker B: That's funny.

Speaker A: Um, now we've chat GPT.

Speaker C: Now we have. Yeah. Instead of dads. Yeah. That's all you need.

Speaker B: I. I was in the Louvre a couple months ago, um, in Paris. And I, like, I'm definitely not cultured enough or did enough research to know what was in there. That was important. And ChatGPT took me through the whole museum. I was taking pictures. I'm like, who did this? And they're like, oh, well, it was Machiavelli and whatever.

Speaker C: I love that because I go to museums and like, I want to feel cultured.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: But m. I want to understand the history of the paintings. But I also hate tour guides. I hate tours because they're annoying.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Stupid. That was great to remember the AI pin. That was like their whole thing that they tried promoting was like, you could walk around and be like, what flowers?

Speaker A: Yeah. These weren't exciting.

Speaker C: It's totally failed.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: They should have been a little more excited.

Speaker C: So sad. We're more excited about it. We should have done this.

Speaker B: Yeah, let's do it. Let's start an AI pin.

Speaker C: Yeah. I think the AI pin should just be used as like a spy thing now.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: That's all it is.

Speaker B: One of them just got acquired.

Speaker C: They sold to hp. Now they're building printers, which is.

Speaker B: Dude, someone needs. Someone needs. I've talked about printers before.

Speaker C: The apple of printers, bro, There should be an apple.

Speaker B: It's a billion dollar business. I was talking. I went to dinner with Randy.

Speaker C: Yeah, the same Randy we talked about just waiting outside.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm coming to let him in.

Speaker C: Should we just let him in into the next podcast? Yeah.

Speaker B: And we talked about how printers need to be fixed.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, I might have to. Might have to do that when just, uh, a meme printer. That's all my printer can mean.

Speaker B: Yeah. No matter what you put in, it prints out a meme. I like a different way to say fuck off.

Speaker C: Yes. Yes. Actually, that's a different startup that I'm working on as well.

Speaker A: Really?

Speaker C: Fuck off, pro.com.

Speaker B: there's no way you thought.

Speaker C: I actually have. One of my. One of my guys, one of my meme lords made this already. Uh, fuck offpro.com, uh, you go in and you type in something, you know, maybe a potential client, and it gives you a chatgpt way to say fuck off politely.

Speaker B: I love that.

Speaker C: That's.

Speaker B: That's a great idea. And that's what I was talking about before with, uh, me saving slack messages.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker B: Just how to say no nicely.

Speaker C: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're working on a slack bot too. So, uh, you're already using it. You said crazy distribution, baby.

Speaker B: It's everybody out. That's A slack bot would be great, dude.

Speaker C: That's what I mean, though. Like, you keep building in, like, can

Speaker B: I train it on my voice?

Speaker C: Probably, yeah. I mean, why not?

Speaker B: Yeah, I'll invest.

Speaker A: I feel like some like, corporate jobs are just slack and meetings.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so

Speaker B: I'm going to get shot for saying that. Going to this corporate building we're in, get shanked on the way out. You said about corporate America.

Speaker C: And they do have some security downstairs. It's pretty wild.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: There's some guy in the front, some

Speaker C: death threats going on.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker C: Dude, I was pretty hurt, not gonna lie. He let me in a couple times without my badge, so I thought we were like boys.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Today he asked for the badge.

Speaker B: Like, so we just went way back.

Speaker C: I was like, oh, like that hurt, you know, I was like. I thought we were like, pass that. Not at all. But so it goes. Um, are you guys building any weird tools in our last like 5, 10 minutes here? Are you like any internal shit? I know. Like that slack one I like.

Speaker B: Yeah, I have a bunch I'm building. I have somebody on payroll. Their full time job is AI agents

Speaker C: for your own stuff.

Speaker B: Internal stuff. I think we do more than twice. I just. We have a list in ClickUp. There's like 50 things that we need automated and he just goes down the list every day.

Speaker C: What was his skill set. How'd you find him? That's so smart.

Speaker B: Um, I found him on upwork.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker B: And um, yeah, he's just a really hungry kid. He's like 19 and he's just hungry. Um, um, yeah, what was the other

Speaker A: question you asked me?

Speaker B: Where.

Speaker C: No, that was it. That, that's fascinating. I, um, I built one which you might like for your team is, ah, I post on typefully and then it sends my different team members in their voice. Similar thing. So if I post, this would be really good for you as well. And send to your designers to give them ideas for posts. Even, even your newsletter too. They could repurpose it in their own way. Um, I think it's something that's like super powerful if you have like team and everybody's posting, you know. Yeah, like that, that's like one little one that I've done. Um, a lot of like automations actually. One, one that you guys might like too. Uh, you could automate your social media, like followers and just send a slack alert once a week.

Speaker B: Oh, like how many followers you have?

Speaker C: Yeah, just to like, you know, improve um, team morale. Yeah. Or depress them and scare them as well. It's going down, it's going off. Shit, man.

Speaker B: Like third consecutive down month they just stop sending.

Speaker C: Oh, are you. Workflows with some of my team for reminders, like post weekly update because I forget to uh, check in. So I'm like, post weekly update.

Speaker B: That's a good idea.

Speaker C: Like I never, I never send it myself.

Speaker B: We've been building AI agents for every one of our clients. So like we'll get a client and like client. Every, every client we do like a 10 to 20 page research report on like everything on the Internet that we could find. And we have all these new data sources coming in from like, like new new clinical studies that launched with like their ingredients or like they got mentioned in press and it just feeds into this bottom. And then when my team needs to like be like, oh, we need a piece of copy or we need something, it's like, well, let's just ask this person who's literally trained on everything to do with this one specific brand and we just name it the client's name. So it'll be like client name.

Speaker C: Is it just a GPT?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's, it's a cloud project.

Speaker C: Interesting.

Speaker B: Yeah. And we fill it up and we're at like 97%. Like I don't know how you see. You can see how.

Speaker A: Really?

Speaker B: Yeah. We're like, all right, well what's not important. We have to remove here because it's like a book on each client. But it's like, it's like we never have. We don't ever have to buy a client. Like, what's your shipping policy? Because it's like we just go ask that. It's like it already knows.

Speaker C: I know some writers are sort of doing that style of writing, um, or like publishing houses and stuff where upload all the writing from like some. Some person guy and. Yeah, hey, do this. It's like PDF on. PDF on PDF. That's. That's crazy.

Speaker B: Yeah. That's why I haven't cracked anything in the design world though. I mean, I'm really trying that hard. But what about, what about you? Anything you guys are doing design wise?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think just copy being able to just know what the next thing to work on is.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So you can like kind of have AI process the meeting.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And because we're giving the updates, the AI, uh, has context, like you said, of like all. Everything about the client and then what we're working on and like, oh, the client will say like, oh, we're trying to improve retention. So like, we really want this to like, you know, be whatever, super easy to find or make um, sure the user gets through the process here. Um, and so when, you know, when they say that we'll be able to like, know exactly what options, what levers

Speaker C: we have to pull. That's uh, so smart. So after a call, it has like

Speaker A: the notes and you know, we'll process that through like a custom GPT.

Speaker B: Like plus you're taking like Fireflies or something. Yeah, Otter and then putting that through another gbt. Yeah.

Speaker A: With the context of the client of.

Speaker C: Oh, yeah. Oh, damn. That's like two levels. That's crazy.

Speaker B: I, uh, thought that's like when you asked ChatGPT to write you a better prompt and it's like always better.

Speaker C: It's really weird. I feel like AI is prompting us now. Yeah. Like, I've been getting I can't sleep questions asked. Like, to me it's prompting you. Like, do you want like, you are Jason? No.

Speaker B: Fuck.

Speaker C: I know. I said like, tell me something you know about myself based on whatever. And then it was like, it tells me and it's like, do you want like a deeper theory? I was like, no, sure. It was like, you crave quiet, you know, like you're. You love the Internet, but you crave quiet and would be just as happy in the stills of the forest. I was like, oh, have you guys

Speaker B: done the thing where you ask at your blind spots?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: No, you should just ask it right

Speaker A: now and then read it. All right.

Speaker B: It says what, like, you. You know me well by now. What are my top five blind spots?

Speaker C: All right, let me try this. All right, we'll end on that. Let me. Let me give this a try. You know me well, my friend. Uh, what are my top five blind spots? Yeah. Okay.

Speaker B: Was yours good?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's pretty good. Yeah.

Speaker C: All right, let's see. What are my type?

Speaker A: Uh.

Speaker C: Oh, let. Hell yeah. This psychoana. Psychoanalyze the meme Lord. It's hilarious. Shipping before scaling. Fuck you.

Speaker B: Um.

Speaker C: Uh, he's like, carry that. The curse of the comedian. Your wit is your weapon. But sometimes humor can deflect vulnerability. All right, well, I'm gonna go cry myself to sleep. Creative overload. Yeah, that's about right. Delegation. Uh, hesitation. Yeah. You know, you should offload automated hire, but there's a part of you that still wants to tweak it yourself. Yeah, that's about right. I'm sure you guys have felt all.

Speaker B: And I felt.

Speaker C: Felt that before. Lonely at the top of the feed. Um. End up siloed. Um, yeah, just being. Being solo a lot. Working crazy. Well, this has been great, guys. I'm gonna go cry myself to sleep. I have to go deal with this, guys. Now. Uh, uh, who do I send the therapy invoice to? Yeah, yeah, that was your fault.