Why This CEO Refuses to Track Hours Worked | Reim El Houni | HR Sisters Podcast

Reem Elhouni: If you want to get somewhere, you do what you can to get it. It cannot be based on skills. It has to be based on attitude and willingness to learn and willingness to evolve. The minute this clocking in and clocking out system came in, everyone now felt, well, I'm only being paid for these hours. And it was such a significant mindset shift that I instantly hated.

Host: They don't seem like big deals, but to an employee it just means so much.

Reem Elhouni: Expo took over our lives. My solution at the time was I need to hire a number two and unfortunately I didn't hire right person.

Host: A lot of leaders do. They hire fast rather than hire right.

Reem Elhouni: I am a perfectionist and I know it was very, very difficult for me to let go. This was by far the worst show I'd ever produced in my life. And then at that moment, my mum calls me Mabrukh. That was the best show I'd ever seen.

Host: All these suggestions. People hold back on it because they think there's a cost element to it, but the examples that you've given and that we've shared are all cost neutral. It's about the idea, it's about the initiative, and it's about cultivating these things.

Narrator: Welcome back to the HR Sisters Podcast, Episode three of season three. And in this season we are exploring what it really takes to build businesses and teams that stand the test of time humans here in the uae. And today's guest is a perfect embodiment of just that. Reem Elhouni is the founder of TI22 Films, a, uh, Dubai based, award winning production company that she launched back in 2011. A BBC trained media professional, Reem moved to Dubai in 2007 and quickly made her mark producing and directing Dubai's one very first locally produced English language show before leading major live events and lifestyle programming across the city. Over the years, TI22 Films has grown into a powerhouse studio, winning international honors including New York Festival Awards and the Cannes Corporate Media and TV Award, delivering content for major broadcasters, global brands and government entities with landmark projects tied to Expo 2020 and COP28. But TI22 films didn't just happen overnight. It took vision, resilience and smart decisions about people, culture and leadership. Which is exactly what we're here to dig in today. So let's get started.

Host: Reem, welcome to the HR Sisters Podcast, Season three.

Reem Elhouni: I'm excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

Host: So lovely to have you here and thank you so much for agreeing to sit down with us and spend your afternoon with us. Well, hopefully it's not going to be the entire afternoon, but whatever time, you, you never know.

Reem Elhouni: You never know. Lots to talk about.

Host: That's tr. Yes, true.

Host: Let the story unfold. Right?

Host: Absolutely. So before we get right into it, for those who don't know you, give us your elevator pitch. Who, who are you? What do you do and what uh, what wakes you up in the morning?

Reem Elhouni: I am incredibly passionate about all things film and tv. I have built a, uh, career behind the camera producing global TV shows and projects and more recently supporting professionals and CEOs. Get in front of the came. Really passionate about the visibility journey. Um, and I'm hoping for that journey to continue and have an even bigger impact.

Host: Amazing. So walk us through that quick journey of when you started because it was a long time ago. At this point.

Reem Elhouni: I know I'm looking quite gray.

Host: No, no, no, not that way.

Reem Elhouni: I should.

Host: Oh my God. I should like.

Reem Elhouni: No, no, no, that's fine.

Host: M. You started maybe two years before me, so just to give you perspective.

Reem Elhouni: So for me, honestly, I've been incredibly lucky that I've always been passionate about the world of media. And uh, from a very young age I way too much content. And then I think my first proper experience was the age of 16. Uh, that's when I interned at uh, NBC. They used to be based in the UK at the time.

Host: Yeah.

Reem Elhouni: And it was one of those experiences that was like a light bulb moment for me. It's like I knew that this was what I was going to do for the rest of my life. Um, and honestly since then it was just me really obsessively persevering and going from one opportunity to the next. Built my career, uh, in media and uh, and moved here 19 years ago. Um, having worked my way up the ladder through TV production and corporate production. Um, I moved here 2007 in Dubai and joined uh, the uh, Dubai one, which is the only English TV channel here and produced, wrote, directed the first English language TV show, uh, and off the back of that produced more shows, more events until I launched my own company 15 years ago, uh, ti 22 films. And through that we've continued to produce TV shows and more content. So that's the compressed. The compressed journey. And what I'm really passionate about is the last two years I've spent a lot of time focused on media training and building a community called Mission Visible to support people get out of their comfort zones and start embracing being on camera and in front of the microphone. Um, because I really believe the industry, the world we live In Today rewards those that understand how to amplify their credibility. Because not everybody who's out there getting the attention is necessarily the most credible voices.

Host: Yes. In fact, I actually like your story going back to your NBC days on how you secured that internship. I thought that was such a clever hack and I'm sure you can still use it today for those looking to hack their way into getting internships, because you took the email addresses.

Host: Right.

Host: Why don't you just jump and tell us that story very quickly?

Reem Elhouni: I did, yes. I'm all about out of the box thinking and if you want to get somewhere, you do what you can to get it. And for my first TV experience, I literally used to watch TV shows. I used to record them on VHS tapes, I used to play them back and I'd write down the names of everybody in the credits. And I knew it wasn't actually for NBC, it was for BBC.

Host: I knew BBC.

Reem Elhouni: That's right. I knew that at, ah, BBC, everyone was first name, dot, surname, uh, bc.co.uk. and I literally just used to email everybody. I didn't know what their role was, I didn't know who they were, I just knew they were in the credits. So I'd email them. And this kept going for a while until eventually I got a response from BBC Watchdog, which is a very popular TV show in the uk. And that was my first internship at the BBC. And honestly, um, you know, I remember that experience like it was yesterday, because it was one of those experiences like, I'm in the building, I was so excited. Um, but it really taught me that the more you push yourself out of your comfort zone and try something different to grab attention, that's when you start to see results. So a lot of the opportunities in my life have come from that level of perseverance.

Host: Yeah. And even after that ended, you were unwilling to accept that your internship had come to an end. Right. You decided to, like, knock on doors

Reem Elhouni: in BBC to say, I love, you've done your research, but yes, I did.

Host: In the building, you just start knocking.

Reem Elhouni: Because I remember it being my very last day at the BBC and I'm holding on to this pass and, like, the last thing I want to do is give the pass back. And, uh, I literally went from like one department to the next saying, hi, I'm an intern, it's my last day, Is there anything I can do to help you? And, you know, one department after the next was like, who is this person? No. Um, but then I lucked out. I think it Was like the seventh or eighth department was BBC education. And they said, oh, we're starting a new series. Can you research? I'm like, yep, I can research. I can do it. And that ended up being around two years worth of support that I gave them. And the first time I saw my name on the credits at the age of 18.

Host: Yeah.

Reem Elhouni: Come full circle. Yeah, completely full circle. To now have my name on the credit. So it's very exciting. Yeah, I think that's such a, like,

Host: important, not just hack, but an attitude to have for, um, you know, young talent getting into the workforce who should be willing to go above and beyond in terms of out of the box thinking. Like I remember to my first employer as well. I would just be the person who'd be like, I'll do it, I'll do it, I'll do it. And I remember like putting up this. We used to call it the HR Divisional Forum. It was basically an engagement activity for 200 plus team members. And I had a presentation, I had games organized, I had prizes organized. I rallied the teams together to come up with, uh, it was like each team within HR had to prepare a two minute ad for another team. So it was an opportunity to learn what another team. Anyway, so I did all of this and we put on this big production and then the next year they hired like a senior person to do that full time. And only then I realized I was like, oh, this was beyond what my, you know, what my job description was. But I have learned so much from that that I use it in my business today.

Reem Elhouni: But I think so many of the opportunities that come are when you step out of the norm and when you step out of what's on the job description, when you step away from what's expected. Um, and I've seen it because that's been my journey. Like I look for that in interns.

Host: We bring in.

Reem Elhouni: You know, I really, really believe in an internship culture because. Bit controversial, but I don't necessarily feel that my degree served me. You know, I'm one of those people who believes that especially in an industry that's as practical as ours, it's the lived experience. It's what you actually gain from being in an office. Um, which is why that's what I look for. I look for interns who are ready to explore and try and show me what they can do. And we've had such a strong track record of interns being employed.

Host: Yeah.

Reem Elhouni: Because I've had a bit of taste of what they're capable of when they're just given a blank canvas. And I think that may also be the challenge. When you employ people, sometimes you are putting them in a box by saying, like, this is what your role is. Um, and often I find, like, I'm very careful about saying this in every interview. I literally say, I don't care what's written on your job description. It may say X title, but the way we operate as a team is that, uh, everyone does everything. I need to see you get involved in this area and that area. And if we're moving office, we're all packing boxes. And I think when people start to understand the malleability in that and they can show input in other sectors, that's when you start to see the real talent or aptitude.

Host: Yeah, that's been a theme in our podcast as well. Like right from our first episode, uh, to even our second one, they both said, like, what they look for in talent is not skills, uh, is more than that, is the attitude. It's the ability to be flexible and take on things and be just open minded in terms of, like, what they would put their hand up for.

Host: I think this is very important as well in the businesses in the uae with the SME community being the largest employment sector. When you have talent that is of this capability and this nature, that's a good fit because then this sector will really grow because there is a talent business fit. So you know, the right person in the right role in the right business. And yeah, that is a strong message that we have seen come through and I think it's a right message as well.

Reem Elhouni: But I think especially in certain industries, like our industry, the media industry is evolving all the time. You need to be someone who's learning consistently and accepting that what you sign up for today might be different tomorrow. So you kind of need to come in with that mindset and realize that whatever skill you have today may not actually be relevant tomorrow. So it cannot be based on skills. It has to be based on attitude and willingness to learn and willingness to evolve. Yeah, um, and more than that, like, for me, which is going to sound a bit unusual, but I do tell everyone in their interview that I take positivity really seriously. Like, that is literally something I say.

Host: Yeah, um, I remember seeing this in an interview of yours as well.

Reem Elhouni: But I believe in it. I really believe in it. Like, it's hard enough keeping ourselves motivated and positive. I don't want to be in an environment with people who are negative. And if you have your own challenges maintaining that level of positivity I can't have that infiltrate and affecting our morale as a team. So for me, it's definitely the attitude and how you have that can do attitude around the challenges that we have, because we will have challenges, um, more than is any skill that you bring to the table.

Host: Yeah. So going back 15 years, right when you started, you've been at these big corporates, BBC, mpc. Um, and of course there's a way of managing people that's very different than how you would manage it in a small business. So talk to us about how you hired that first employee. What was that people journey that you can think of?

Reem Elhouni: Well, I think just to comment on what you just mentioned, I had worked in very large entities and worked with very large organizations, and you learn, you learn about things that kind of rubbed you the wrong way or maybe didn't sit with you the way you wanted them to. So definitely starting my company, I would say that I took away quite a few lessons from that. Um, but to answer the question about my first employees or first team members, uh, the first two people that I took on, um, I took on six months into my business. One was my accountant and one was my pa, and both are still with me today. So 14 and a half years later. So I'd like to think I did something right, that they're still. You did still with me. Um, but, you know, the decision really came from a place of what's my weakest area and the area that I know that I'm going to have to be accountable for consistently is finance. So therefore I don't want to have any financial challenges whatsoever. Let me get an accountant on board to make sure that everything's in order. Um, and a pa because as I was starting to grow, it became difficult to manage all the commitments and also, you know, working with different clients, having a second voice in that interaction always helps. So those were my first two, and I hired both around six months in.

Host: And did you hire them from your network that you knew, or did you go out and actually like, put out a job ad? Did you go through the formal process of recruitment?

Reem Elhouni: Both were incidental and both were from my network and both were networking and met them. Um, and I think there's a certain hunger around that. When you meet people who are out there, you know, looking for an opportunity, looking to grow, um, it just, it's very different to a traditional recruitment process where it's, it's, you know, a job application doesn't necessarily tell you everything you need to know. So I'm both very Very independent people. And even till today, they both work remotely. They both, uh, you know, we have. They've never fallen into the office environment that the rest of the team since then have. Um, my accountant is actually an independent accountant who runs her own firm, but she's, ah, effectively a CFO to our organization. Um, so, yeah, uh, it's interesting how you meet the talent that you take. A lot of the talent I've taken on have either been through the network or through referral or that I've built a relationship with versus it being a traditional recruitment process.

Host: You spoke earlier about takeaways from your previous life that you learned from.

Reem Elhouni: Right.

Host: What would you say were the takeaways that you're like, I'm going to do it differently in my business.

Reem Elhouni: So there are things that I was gonna continue to do and things that I never want to do. Um, the one that really sticks with me, especially because we're in the media industry. And just to put this in context, we work very erratic and unusual hours. Um, and often, you know, I went through a whole phase of my life where the best time to shoot anything was sunrise. Which mean that I was always like leaving my house at like 4:30 and 5am to film these sunrises. And then, oh, let's not forget the second best time is sunset. You know, so now you're having these ridiculously long days or you know, we're filming events and therefore, oh, the events at night and the events through the night. And very. If you saw my calendar, you would think it was abnormal. But unfortunately our industry as such, our industry does have that. So I'm a very, very big believer that if I'm expecting you to work these erratic, unusual hours, there has to be a sense of flexibility around that. There has to be a sense of, look, okay, we know you're going to have a very long day today, you have a shorter day tomorrow. There's going to have to, you know, you're going to have days in lieu built into what you, you do. And one of the entities that I worked with prior to starting my company decided to have a clocking in and clocking out system. And I'll never forget it. I'll never forget it because prior to that clocking in and clocking out system, whatever I asked the team to do, they would do it, you know, because it felt like at whatever time, you know, if I suddenly came across a great idea at 7pm or 8pm and I shared it, I'm like, oh, guys, we really need to look into this. I'D get an excited team member going, oh, that sounds like such a great idea. Let's look into this. The minute this clocking in and clocking out system came in, everyone now felt, well, I'm only being paid for these hours in the day. I'm not being paid for these other ones. Why should I, uh, can wait till tomorrow.

Host: Yeah.

Reem Elhouni: And it was such a significant mindset shift that I, I instantly hated that. It really instilled in me the need to con, to maintain the culture I had prior to the system coming in. And so I will never have a clocking in or a clocking out system for that reason. Because if you expect people to be flexible with you at certain times, you need to be flexible back. Um, there are some occasions where it's possible it can be taken advantage of, but for the most part, the majority of the time it's a win win scenario. So that's definitely one that I'm not repeating. Um, but the ones that I am repeating. I worked in an organization in the UK which they were so good at, um, involving the team in many of the decisions that were being made that I really do my best to see how can I involve the team. Things like, um, they taught me how to have weekly wash ups, which is what we do as a company now. And a week wash up is where we sit down as a team every Friday and look at what went well and what could have gone better across the whole board. Yeah. Um, and I think those touch points make a very big difference. Um, even if I've had a really busy week, if I'm able to make it to the wash up.

Host: Yeah.

Reem Elhouni: Then I've still had some kind of interaction. I've got my finger in the pulse in terms of what's happened that week. Um, so I think it hasn't all been negative. There's definitely been strong takeaways as well. Um, but, but yeah, the experiences you have definitely paved the way for how you build your company.

Host: Yeah. I remember again in one of my previous companies, right, we had, they introduced clean desk policy, which is everyone has to have a clean desk. And if, if anyone knows me, I am super organized and super like particular about arranging things. And I think there must have been one day that I was rushing out the door or something and I, it wasn't. And the next morning when I came to work there was a little note on my desk because the night before the management decided to do an audit. And the note said, we are disappointed in you. Something, something, something, something. And I was so Gutted. I'm like, seriously, like, you know what I do, you know how I am. And you would know that this is a one off. So to come to work in the morning and the first thing you see, uh, a note on your desk that starts with, we are disappointed was so heart. And I was so, I was so young in my career as well. You take these things really seriously. Uh, so, yeah, so like, you know, these things like clocking in, clocking out, these things are so impactful. They don't seem like big deals like, oh, let's put a clocking in system. Uh, but to an employee it just means so much because you really have to think about like, what experience are you creating? What's the culture you're creating?

Host: What's the culture? Because it is a cultural shift. Shift from being adaptable, flexible in a creative space. Especially like your mind doesn't operate on an 8 to 5 clock. Your mind operates in a very different way. Like you mentioned, like maybe before the end of the day you've had a, you know, a light bulb moment and you need to do something about it. But if you introduce a system where your time is controlled or managed, then automatically you're, you will change the way you behave. Right, and that's what you saw as well.

Reem Elhouni: Absolutely. But I think also just um, you know, touching on, on what you just m mentioned, uh, it is like again in the interview, the one thing I say is you have to be flexible. You know, it's, it's a flexibility that you, if you know that entering, you're setting the right expectation for people. And I think that's usually where a lot of these challenges are when you're not setting the expectation. Um, but the comment you made about the note on your desk, I actually learned something from Tony Robbins, I'm a big Tony Robbins fan, which has taught me a lot about how to communicate with people in these kind of situations. Um, is just simply to ask if there's a reason and just asking that simple question. So for example, you know, if someone's consistently late, you know, it's very easy to kind of look at it and think, oh my God, can't that person just leave their house a few minutes earlier? Why are they consistently late and just automatically go and write the note and I'm disappointed in you. But it's taught me, he's taught me to start asking the question, is everything okay? And is there a reason you're coming in late? You know, and, and that's the differentiator. Because when someone says to you. And it's happen to me a few times where someone says, actually, no, I'm not okay. My, I've got a family member who's in hospital and I've been trying to go see them in the hospital before I come to work. And that's why I've been late, you know. So now you suddenly have an understanding around the behavior and because of that understanding you're like, oh, I'm so sorry, I wish you'd share that with me. No problem. Do you need to spend more time and you can start to have that dialogue? So I think asking the question is important and I think also creating the environment where hopefully they tell you exactly. You know, I've had that a few times too. I've had a few people go through some serious challenges that I was none the wiser to. And I'm like, had they just told me, I would have understood the context and obviously behave differently. So it's really taught me the importance of asking.

Host: Yeah, absolutely. You know, even as hr, from working with clients or even in, in the corporate world, right? The number of times a, ah, manager will pick up the phone to you and say, hey, I need to discipline an employee because, because he is coming late every day. And um, then he said, I've told him so many times he needs to be here on time or she needs to be here on time. And then you say, have you asked them what's going on? And most of the time it's, oh, no, I haven't. Would you ask them? And again, nine out of ten times, nobody wakes up thinking, hey, I'm going to be late today. Um, and if that is the case, then also think back to when you hired the person. Hi. How there's so much there. It's not just one person deliberately wanting to be late. There's so many underlying layers there. Um, you know, so management or managing a team is all about that.

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Reem Elhouni: Well, I'd say every now and then it is. So it's just about also knowing the difference, I think.

Host: Yeah, I think the question asking the employees also is in a different scenario. May. So we recently had a meeting with a client. They were looking at reviewing the rewards and recognition program. And the message, or rather was, we need to change it, we need to change it. Can you come up with some ideas? And so on and so forth, which as HR consultants, we surely can. But, uh, the question I asked him is, have you spoken to your employees? What would they recognize as recognition? And she's like, oh, um, yeah, we do ask if they are recognized, but we don't ask what is the meaning of that recognition? It's like, that's a good question. But it so often happens that we are prescribing things to employees without really taking their input. So your idea of always involving the employees, not common sense or common business sense. And that's a good point to make.

Reem Elhouni: Honestly, something that I've done every year for a while now is a communal vision board board. And that has been a game changer. So at the end of the year, I. I'm a big believer in vision boards. I want to make sure that my whole team have done their own. So they need to do their own personal ones to identify what it is they want in their lives. We will then do a company one where I ensure that at least two items from each person's vision board makes it into the company vision board. And that is interesting on two levels. One, because I'm now starting to understand the team member more. So your point? What do they want? You start to understand, like, oh, this person's actually really passionate about food and really passionate about travel or whatever that may be, which informs you for future decisions and future conversations. But second, you now get them fully aligned and bought into the company vision. So, you know, they are more excited about delivering certain projects or being on a team. So it is. I've seen that involving them has never gone negatively. For me, it's always been, you know, how to ensure that they've understood the situation you're in and if anything, are able to support you as you move to the next step.

Host: But I remember, Reem, uh, you shared a very beautiful story about something of your vision board, I think, coming true. Which was booking something in the Coca Cola arena, if I'm not mistaken.

Reem Elhouni: Um, I've got so many of these stories now, but yes, the Coca Cola arena one in particular is interesting. Um, I'm not a very materialistic person. I'm not someone who has items that I want to purchase. But I remember, I remember one day, uh, being invited to one of the boxes in the Cocoa arena for an event. And it was just this weird sensation. Like I walked into the box, I was like, oh, I love this is so much fun. Oh, I can imagine using this for my team. I can imagine. And I was like, I want one, I want one of these boxes. And the next thing is I put it on my, my vision board. And uh, you know, I often tell people the fact the idea of putting it on a vision board is not about hocus pocus and you know, it's about being clear about you want and then taking the action to make it happen. And because we share things as a team, it was actually one of my team members who saw it on the vision board and we happened to be filming at the Coca Cola arena months later. And my team member, so it wasn't even me, it was my team member who was speaking to the contact and said, you know what, our CEO loves the Coca Cola arena so much, has even got a box on her vision board. And at that moment the general manager walked by and the contact said, do you know that the CEO has, has a box? And then he said, oh, well, let's have a conversation. And uh, months went by and one day I just got ah, an email in my inbox. M. We said, oh, we know, I'm a big Boyz II Men fan. We know you love boys to men. And uh, you know, we want to give you a box for the concert. And I was just like, oh my God, I got my own box. Obviously it wasn't quite what I'd visualized, but the fact is I attracted a box. Right. And that's just one example. There are so many examples where I just believe that if you get clear about what you want, you it out there, you share it with people. Um, you're allowing that energy to come in.

Host: Yeah, that's such a beautiful story. We, uh, do something, we call it the value. So we have a weekly huddle similar to your weekly wash up. And we start every huddle with what we call a values moment. So we ask the team to reflect on the week and think about, uh, you know, a time that they feel like, hey, I lived up to this value, um, and every, like, everyone's like, no, no, let them go first. Let, let the other person go first. But when it comes down to them, right, the stories they tell us, like, you want to cry at the end of it because you're like, that's why we have these values. And I remember like a couple of weeks ago, uh, one of our team member got screamed at on the phone, uh, by, you know, for something. I think he was following up on a payment or something, and he got yelled at and he didn't say anything. He just said, you know, please don't speak to me like this. This is not good. Uh, but he held his own, you know, and he was very respect. Uh, and then he later reflected in our weekly huddle to say, he said, you know what? When that was happening to me, deep down I knew that this was a values moment for me because I needed to, uh, have a service first mentality. But also I felt empowered enough to not just take someone screaming down the phone at me. And it's things like this that create that culture that you talk about, right? So it's always like these moments that matter for sure.

Reem Elhouni: I mean, that I learned that, that we've implemented is a gratitude chat. So we have a WhatsApp, uh, chat that is just reserved for people thanking other people. And it's. I use it the most at the moment. But the, but it's interesting when you see the kind of things people are thanking others for. Like, we went through a phase where, you know, I remember one team member would thank another for bringing them lunch or, you know, remembering them when they went to the supermarket or whatever it may be. It's sometimes really small, small gestures, but it's building in that attitude of gratitude. It's building in that feeling of this is out of the ordinary. This is something I appreciate and I need to get out and, and actually share that appreciation. Um, and that I think makes a huge difference. Gratitude in general always makes a difference.

Host: Absolutely.

Host: All these suggestions, right? We always get a call when it talks about building a culture or creating like, engagement initiatives. There's always this. People hold back on it because they think there's a cost element to it, or there needs to be like a reward being paid for or things like that. But the examples that you've given and that we've shared are all cost neutral. It's about the idea, it's about the initiative, and it's about cultivating these things, which are all outcomes of what we call employee engagement. But they're done in this way, which is cost neutral. Neutral. And that would be so helpful to so many businesses.

Reem Elhouni: But it's also sometimes things that they don't agree to initially, um, but then come around to, um, like one of the things that I'm a massive believer in, and everyone still looks incredibly grumpy when this starts, is I believe in dance. So we, I believe that, uh, again, another Tony Robbins thing. But the fastest way to change your psychology is to change your physiology.

Host: Yes.

Reem Elhouni: And because I believe that so much, and it all stemmed from me coming, coming back from a Tony Robbins event where we danced, you know, the whole time. I remember walking into the office and I'm like, we're going to be dancing every day. Yeah. And so we currently dance almost every day. Um, and the minute the song comes on, everyone looks grumpy. The minute it goes on, everyone is like, oh, my God. But within seconds, within seconds you see everybody smiling, laughing, getting into it. And to me, it's like these small things again, again, doesn't cost anything to do this, right? But it's a small, like two minute, two to three minutes of our day that has completely shifted the energy in the room, shifted everyone's, you know, how they feel about where they're at at that point. We tend to do it late afternoon. So it's that, you know, little, little pickup. Um, and I think if, if you just find a way of embedding more of these moments, it does make a shift overall.

Host: Yeah. And I think it also comes down to you valuing your people, your team, you know, they're the wind beneath things. How many team members do you have now that. That come into the office or even work, work remotely?

Reem Elhouni: Um, in total, we're at 20. Um, having said that, because of the nature of what we do, we tend to scale up when we take on larger projects. So, you know, we did the daily TV show at Expo, for example, and we were a team of 60. So when these larger projects come in, we have a support team that's freelance, that come on board on a contract basis to help us execute. And then they also obviously, um, don't stay on beyond that.

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Host: I started, right, I said I started two years after, it was like 2013 or so and I wanted to be a freelancer, a freelance HR consultant. But there was no uh, local uh, understanding of what freelance in the HR consulting space was all about. And I had to call myself the independent HR consultant except, etc. But my, all my experiences or what I built on was based on the media industry because in the ad space, um, in the media and this freelancing was already quite common and I picked a lot of the learnings from them because I had a few friends who were freelancing in the media. So that was the only reference I had. So it is a very common practice of scaling up to projects, having a core team. But what's interesting is how do you build, build the scale up and the scale down without really touching the morale? That's, that would be interesting to learn about.

Reem Elhouni: Honestly, I'm incredibly fortunate that I have maintained really strong relationships with people who you know, I started working with in this country 19 years ago. So even today our extended freelance team are people we've worked with, you know, since the birth of my company 15 years ago. So they really do feel like an extended team that come in and have out based on the requirements of the projects that come in. So I think your question was more about the morale of the existing team.

Host: So yes, what happens is when you scale up and there is usually this is the experience I've seen. Right. So you might be able to give me a bit more insight on that is there are some members from freelance are looking to be full time or when the project ends, they don't really want it to end because you know, there's nothing else. So that sort of thing. So it changes the sentiment in the office. But I guess you dance.

Reem Elhouni: I mean just to put this in perspective, a lot of the projects, projects we do are large scale and um, I mean we, we work, we produce a daily TV show which is a nine month contract. So I have some freelancers who are with us for nine months. So it's three months of the summer that they go off and they go on leave. And so there's not really that that sentiment doesn't really arise in those situations and in other situations when we're producing a daily show for Expo, Expo ends like that's beyond my control. The, the project has ended. So I think it's, it's also about being very clear about expectations when a project starts. When a project starts it's like look, this is what we're Looking at, we're looking at an engagement for this period of time. This is what the expectation is. And when it ends, you know, you're free to continue on to the next one. I do my best to, uh, you know, secure the next project, which then, because we want to keep this family, you know, to ensure that that team can continue working with us. Sometimes it doesn't happen immediately, but we've been very fortunate that the same team has predominantly worked with us across most of the large SC projects that we've done.

Host: Yeah, you've clearly built trust with them.

Reem Elhouni: Right.

Host: So they just come in knowing that

Reem Elhouni: it's honestly a win win. And I think, I think I don't want to toot my own horn, but I think what has helped is that I'm all about teaching, you know, so I'm, I'm more than happy to teach you everything I know because I see it as an opportunity for us to scale. If you know everything I know and you're able to go and sit and produce that project, it means I can go and produce the next project. And I, I think overall there's usually, um, a hesitance in sharing knowledge and sharing information and allowing others to grow. Whereas I really see it as if I can get you all to grow, then I can, I can grow even further, you know, and it's, it's not really keeping me m. It's like the more. More I can let go then, you know, the more opportunities we will bring in. And I think if I was to pinpoint it, I think that's probably the differentiator that has kept people with me because I' mean, I have people on my team. I mean, our senior producer now on the TV show used to be a production coordinator on one of my first shows 18 years ago, you know, so. And, and I have many examples like this where, you know, they've grown up the ranks to where they are today. And I think it's because, you know, of how your relationship keeps evolving and how their role keeps evolving. Because if their role stays the same, that's when they start looking to go elsewhere.

Host: Yeah. Because they're not growing, right?

Reem Elhouni: Correct.

Host: But when you're scaling a team, Even if it's five or 10 employees, you have to have, like, systems and things in place to make sure that that is sustainable. You know, with one, two employees, you can tell them things on a daily basis, answer questions, be available, but when that number hits 5, 10, 15, and especially with a schedule like what you probably have, it's not possible to not have those systems to scale.

Narrator: Right.

Host: From an HR perspective or uh, from a people perspective, what did you put in place to support you?

Reem Elhouni: Honestly, I don't think I have that right yet. You know, because I think that, you know, there are certain things that are obvious to me and I think as much as I've been strong at helping to groom others in their role, I'm not necessarily sure I've been strong at ensuring that all systems continue uh, without me. And the reason I say that is because I, I've had instances where I failed. You know, I've had instances and the most, the most clear one for me was uh, when Expo started. Uh, Expo for us was a huge project. It was a huge project that took over our lives to the point where, and I was personally very, very involved in it. So I personally along with a team moved to Expo. So we had a second office in Expo where we were producing a daily show. But I had my core team continue day to day business. And my SOL at the time was I need to hire a number two. I need to hire a number two who can oversee everything that is still happening because my focus is just on Expo. And uh, and unfortunately, you know, in hindsight it's 2020, I didn't hire the right person. So, and it's my fault because I didn't spend enough time training, grooming, preparing. It was one of those like, need someone, found someone. Okay, let's let you know within a couple of months she was in this role, I was there and, and the way you culture uh, evolved during that time was not necessarily how I would have evolved it. So to answer your question about processes, I think the team that you have have to be aligned with your vision and your processes to execute. Um, and so again it comes back to people. So you know, as much as you want to be systems driven, if you don't have people who follow the process, then it doesn't matter. Doesn't. Yeah, doesn't matter what system you have in place?

Host: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Um, I think it was a case of like what a lot of people do as well, right? A lot of leaders do, they hire fast rather than hire. Right. And then like you said, Hindsight is 20 20. And then they're like, oh, I should have done this differently or I could have done this differently. Ah, a lot of times, you know, they would hire without a job description and a job description can sound restrictive, but it's clarity, clarity in terms of what you're looking for and clarity for the other person who's coming in to make sure that you're coming in to do, do X. You may be also required to do Y and Z as part of being part of this organization. But predominantly this is what it is. Right. And I think people appreciate that clarity as well.

Reem Elhouni: Yeah, for sure.

Host: Um, what do you think you could have done differently? Now, looking back in terms of, you know, uh, you said you haven't got quite got it right. Right. What would, what would you have. What would. What would. Uh, I'm trying to out figure frame this in a way that basically, you know, what could you have put in place that you would think back to say, no, I got that. Right.

Reem Elhouni: Um, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said hire fast. Um, I did hire. In that particular instance, I did hire fast because my need was so high. And I think, um, you know, what's interesting is I have a friend of mine who runs a large organization and he said to me recently that he's always recruiting, so he's always meeting. Meeting people. So it's about consistently having the door open to, you know, meet talent and, and when you find the right one, then it's like, okay, I've got the person. I think that I only started looking because I had an urgent need. Yeah. As opposed to it being a consistent search, uh, for who the right candidate would be. Yeah. Um, and interestingly, in other parts of the business that succeeded. So in other parts of the business, I think we actually have at least three, maybe four team members at the moment who I hired without having a job. Like, I, like I didn't have a role for them.

Host: Yeah.

Reem Elhouni: You know, but when I met them, I really liked them and there was something about them that I'm like, this is someone who needs to be on my team. No idea what they're going to do yet, but I know they need to be on my team. And then we've kind of crafted a role and then they've evolved. It's evolved. And they've, you know, they've been great, uh, decisions.

Host: Yeah.

Reem Elhouni: But I did that at a junior level. I haven't done that at a senior level, which is what I feel is needed.

Host: Yeah, that, that. I think that's what a lot of SMEs would do.

Reem Elhouni: Right.

Host: Like, sometimes they would just hire because you're great talent and then try to fit them into the organization. Doesn't always work out.

Host: And it doesn't always. Not either, because it depends on the size of the organization. The, the level, the where you are in your business. Cycle as well. Like if you are up and coming, you're scaling, you're growing. Not everything is rigidly defined. There can be a lot of that that is rigidly, like, sorted out and then you go after it. But you always need to leave room for these areas that you don't know. Oftentimes you meet the talent that gives you an idea of where you think this person will be. Or sometimes it's like you go after the role. I don't know, this is a good analogy or something. But I remember when I used to go shopping, oh my God.

Host: I was going to say the same thing.

Host: And I'm going for a white blouse. I never find it, but on the fly when I'm in the mall and I look and I was like, oh, that's the perfect white blouse. So both situations, you come back with something of, you know, you're talking to

Reem Elhouni: someone who doesn't shop. So I literally buy anything I need from an app. And so I have slightly different experience.

Host: I was going to say the same thing and then I'm like, oh, my God, that's such a vain example. But I think it's like, you know what they say, when you focus on something, when you chase something, when you so desperately, it like, runs away from you. But when you just let it go, you're like, I need this. And you let it go, you attract it. I think that's probably what it is.

Reem Elhouni: Yeah.

Host: So in your case, you didn't know what you wanted, but, you know, maybe consciously but subconsciously or in some ways that that talent presented itself and gave you an opportunity. So sometimes you have to be open to these ideas as much as, like, as HR consultants, we tell companies to have an org structure, to have all of this, but the advice is more bespoke to what their business is or what they're looking at. We can't necessarily apply the same HR principles universally across all. What I would tell, uh, a company in manufacturing versus what I would tell a PR company is totally different because they need more structure. Here you need more adaptiveness, creativeness, et cetera. So you have to keep your organization and open to it.

Narrator: Yeah.

Host: So that's, you've, you've, you know, set that example to say, like, everything works in, in a different way for everyone.

Host: Yeah. How do you balance, like, structure with flexibility? Because you need a bit of both to make something work. Right. You can't, it can, can't always be flexible throughout, but no structure.

Reem Elhouni: I think again, we're in a situation where the projects we Work on are very structured. So I think it's understanding that when you. You're on, you follow this structure, but in between, you can have the level of flexibility. So, you know, to. To give you an example, when you're working on a TV show that is incredibly structured, everything has to happen on time. You cannot be late. You know, the smallest typo can be blown out of proportion. It's a very different world of attention to detail and rigor. And I expect that level during those hours or when we're working on the show. However, we do that three days of the week, you know, so if it means that you've had to put all of that extra energy on these days, maybe the other days are the ones where you can be a bit more slack or be a bit more relaxed or take some downtime. So I think it's. It's very much about understanding when does that. When is that structure not just important, but imperative, and when is it that, you know what. Now is the time that the flexibility can come in. So when I say we're flexible, I'm not saying that we're loose. You know, I'm saying that the flexibility is what enables us to have balance.

Host: Balance, yeah, yeah. Um, and I think that's an important distinction. Right? Flexible does not mean loose. It means flexible.

Reem Elhouni: Correct.

Host: Um, how has your leadership style evolved over the years?

Reem Elhouni: If it has, how has it evolved? Um, to be honest, because I've worked in both great places and terrible places, um, I'd like to think. I'd like to think that I, um. I think my style has always been inclusive. I think my style has always been, uh, empathetic. Um, but having said that, I think I've also been firm. You know, I think I've also been, you know, in the TV world, you have to be. So. So I. I think I'm that fine line between, you know, this has to happen, but I care about you, but this has to happen, you know? Um, but I'm not sure it's evolved much other than I think my delegation skills have improved because I think when you start off, you do feel like you have to do everything yourself. Um, I am a perfectionist, and I know it was very, very difficult for me to let go of certain things, but I think the more you learn and the more you realize that I have to let go in order for me to grow in other areas. So I think that's probably the key one. Actually, I mentioned earlier training others. A big part of me training others is so that I can let Go of different things, which once upon a time, I may have wanted to do it all myself. Um, so I think it's more my understanding of business that has grown and because of my understanding of business and principles and how to scale that has impacted my leadership style. Because I want to grow. And I realize that in order for that to happen, this needs to change.

Host: Yeah, I think that one would apply to a lot of founders.

Reem Elhouni: Right.

Host: Because at the beginning, you think only I can do it to this level of perfection. And it's almost. You have to, you know, really trust someone to pay attention to the details the way you would. And people don't naturally do that. How do you navigate that? Because, like, I find that sometimes in our line of business also. Right. You can't. You have to be particular about the details. And then I think to myself, like, am I just being, you know, over the top about this? Or like, there's no one else seeing this?

Reem Elhouni: I think it's learning to pick your battles. Because again, I use the TV show as an example, but I will not accept an error on the TV show at all. Whether it's a typo, a dash or whatever. Like, as small as it may be, I'm like, no, this is now going out in the. To the general public, it's someone's name. It's someone. It's something that could actually, you know, have a much bigger repercussion than you would imagine. So in that space, you know, my attention to detail is very high, and I do expect everyone to have that attention to detail. However, because it's so high in that area, you know, what if their phrasing is different? You, uh, know, on an email to someone else, or if you know something else doesn't quite look the way I'd want, I let that go. So it's kind of choosing your battles and saying, okay, in this area, rigor needs to be really high. In these other areas, I need to let go and come to terms with the fact that if I want things to happen, then the fastest way for them to happen is for other people to do them. And if I'm going to check everything, then I haven't solved that problem. I think that's helping me a lot mentally at the moment is looking at my, uh, what I'm calling my rot, my return on time, you know, so, like, is this a good use of my time? If I've hired somebody to do something, right, and I'm now double checking or triple checking, then what was the point in hiring them to do it to begin with, is this a good use of my time or if I use the same time doing something else, would I have achieved something else? So I'm currently doing a lot of kind of just assessing how I'm spending my time and where is it actually giving me the most mileage. And sometimes that's what's freeing me from being overly attentive to things because I realize I can't do it all.

Host: Yeah, um, I last a previous guest, Lara, she said she does these things called, um, guidelines. And whenever someone makes an error or omits something, she's like, let's go back to the guidelines. Like, this is your 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 things that absolutely need to happen, uh, before, you know, we send out a press release, for instance. And I thought that was also really, really like a really good way to deal with it because like you said, it's easy to say, not easy, but, you know, you also know you have to pick your battles. But then you're like, which one do I pick and which one do I let go?

Reem Elhouni: So for me, I mentioned doing the vision board at the start of the year, but I have a touch point every quarter where we as a group review everything. And I use that as an opportunity to go back over our guidelines and go back over what's worked and what hasn't worked. And because we have the weekly touch points with the wash ups, that becomes an accumulation. So I think it doesn't get beyond a week or two of something kind of not going the way you want it to before, uh, we're in a situation where we can rectify it.

Host: Yeah, I always find that which moment is a teaching moment and which moment is a letting go moment. And that's the battle I always struggle with. So at times I'm like, okay, is this a teaching moment or is this me reacting, uh, versus what this should be something that I can let go. So that has been like, as a business owner and a team management style, especially when you have certain core members and freelancers, you, you have to navigate that all the time. And that's constant challenge.

Reem Elhouni: But it depends what you're letting go, because I think, I don't necessarily think they're the same thing. So for me, everything's a teaching moment, you know, like, uh, literally. And I have this debate sometimes with a couple of the senior members of the team because, you know, they'll see something not worded the way they want to word it, and then they'll start wording it themselves. And I'm like, well, why? If you actually spent five minutes teaching and explaining what the problem was, then you won't have to fix it next time, you know, so I'm always in that zone. Zone of like, that's not letting go. That's teach, teach. The more you teach, the freer you'll be in the future. Even though it may take more of your time now to do the teaching. The letting go for me is, you know, uh, in the style in something that is subjective. I guess it's like. Because I think the subjectivity is where, like, I would have done it this way, he would have done it that way. I can let go of that because that's not inaccurate. Yeah, you know, and that's what you were talking about.

Host: That's exactly what I was talking about. Where it's not in my style per se, or I would have presented it differently. I could teach how I present and expect somebody else. Or I'm like, no, this, this is also okay. And you know, I'm okay to present this as. As it is without making changes. So it's that transition.

Reem Elhouni: But I think also if you let go a few times and allow for someone else subjectivity to. To lead, it may surprise you what the response is like, you know, so there've been a few times where I've kind of thought, m, that's not how I would have done it. And then you let it go and then it gets like really positive feedback back and you're like, okay, that's fine, I'll let that be. Exactly. And it goes to show, like, we don't all have the right answer all the time.

Host: It also reminds me of a story you share dream, where you did the, uh, Burj Khalifa opening and you thought you did a terrible job. And then your mom called you and she said, mabrook, great job. And you're like, you know, we all don't have the same perspective.

Reem Elhouni: I mean that for me, I tell that story often, like, like in my keynotes because it's, um, it's such a clear memory for me of how I truly felt everything I did as part of that live broadcast go wrong. And it really did like, you know, if I can go into detail. But literally everything I planned went wrong. Um, and I was like, I reached the end of it and I felt. I felt devastated, you know, and I was just like, this was by far the worst show I'd ever produced in my life. Life. And then at that moment, my mom calls me and she's like, mabrook, that was the best show I'D ever seen. And she's like, raving on about everything. And I thought, how is it possible that my worst show is my mom's best show? Yeah. And I think just that clarity in her perspective being so different to mine in the fact that, you know, she doesn't know what I'd planned, she doesn't know how it was meant to go. She just saw an end result that still delivered the same outcome. And I think, you know, it helped me so much from that point because now I'm in this zone of like, you don't know what I was going to do, what I was going to say. But as long as you've had a good experience, as long as you've enjoyed it, as long as you've got what you need out of it, it was a success. Yeah. You know, and not to be too tied to what was meant to happen or the process.

Host: Yeah. And I think that's a. That's a great learning for all of us to end this episode on. But before we go, Reem, tell our audience where to find you.

Reem Elhouni: Where to find me. I'm, um, everywhere. But, um. But yes, uh, hashtag Mission Visible. Hashtag mission Visible. But Reemal Hooney. I'm very active on LinkedIn, very active on Instagram, Happy to respond to anyone who DMs me. And, uh. And, yeah, hope to see more stories out there and more people grow their visibility.

Host: Awesome. Thank you so much, Reem. It was a pleasure having you on the show.

Reem Elhouni: Thank you both so much. I really enjoyed it if you stayed

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