How She Built a 16-Person Gen Z Team Without Looking at a CV | Naomi D'Souza | HR Sisters Podcast

Speaker A: I think, uh, Gen Z is teaching us how to walk differently and we have to listen and how to speak

Speaker B: up as well, how to stand up ourselves.

Speaker C: The expectation is that Gen Zs are the challenging population and they must do things differently. No one ever thinks like, hey, what can we learn from them and how do we need to evolve? What are your non negotiables when you bring on a team member?

Speaker B: Oh my God. I think that's the first thing and the best thing that I have been able to do for the business to immediately remove the toxicity. So I didn't keep myself out of it. I was like, tell me as well, because even I want to improve. What can I change in the business?

Speaker C: Ah, how does that make you feel like when you got your own feedback from the team?

Speaker D: Welcome back to episode six of this season of the HR Sisters podcast. As we continue on our season theme of Build to Last. Today's guest is someone who has built not just one, but on multiple platforms. And she has done this by refusing to fit into just one box. Naomi d' Souza is the founder and CEO of XN Digitize, a digital marketing strategy firm built around bold results driven brand communication. But here is what makes her story particularly interesting. Naomi started out as a mechanical engineer, moved into digital strategy consulting at a Fortune 500 company, and then somewhere along the way became one of Dubai's most recognized content creators and a three time TEDx speaker. She has also been named among the 100 most influential Asians and influencers in the UAE. And her client work spans industries as diverse as government, healthcare, AI, energy and hospitality. But what makes today's conversation especially interesting is not just what Naomi has built, it's what it's taken her to build it. Especially as a leader of, uh, a Gen Z team. Because behind every growing business is the challenge of becoming an employer. Hiring the right people, creating a culture, setting standards and, and leading a team through the realities of growth. And that is the part we are especially excited to explore with her today. We want to dig into the people side of leadership, what she has learned about team building, trust, accountability, and what it really means to grow a business with people. So let's get started.

Speaker C: Naomi, welcome to the HR Sisters podcast.

Speaker B: Thank you for having me.

Speaker C: You just completed four years as XN Digital. Congratulations.

Speaker B: It's been four years.

Speaker C: How's it been?

Speaker B: Um, I think it started off quite rocky. Figuring things out. Who are the right people in the company? What do we have to do? I mean, I knew I loved social media, I knew I loved creating Content, especially unique content. But I really didn't know what the genre is, what the industry is. And then I think there was a lot of figuring out. And then I think after eight to nine months of starting the business, we kind of did find our footing eventually.

Speaker C: Um, what do you think that was that helped you find your footing? Do you think anything in specific?

Speaker B: I think a lot of my life has just been from manifestation and intuition.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Weirdly enough, sometimes it's not the answer that a lot of people want to hear because they feel I may give a concrete piece of advice. Uh, the thing is, I feel I have always loved tech so much and anything to do with the stem field. Right. So although we started with a lot of local businesses, when the business started off, I think in about eight, nine months, we started suddenly getting into those industries, and we never really pitched for them. We got founded or discovered because we were posting these things online. And I think a lot of people think that social media, like, say, for example, I'm posting cakes. I have the skillset only to post cakes.

Speaker D: But.

Speaker B: But that's not true. If I'm able to sell a cake or a paratha or even if it's like a chicken dish or even salons, for example, that that skill set at, uh, a lot of times can be transferable.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: So I think there was one such person who discovered that skill set and who, who saw that we could do something more, especially given my background, given I am from the stem field.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I think that's how it just very organically happened. We didn't really pitch for it, just got right into it and we did a really good job. Touchwood. And then, and then, you know, it just started, uh, through word of mouth, we started getting into all these industries. So it was, it was pretty cool. But the other thing is that because I didn't plan for it, I'm like, ah, uh, okay. This is another new week.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Okay. You know, new day, new stuff.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So it's. It's always an element of surprise, to be honest.

Speaker C: Yeah. Which is amazing. Right. Like, I think people love to think there is a concrete, like, point in which you go from A to B, but that actually isn't the case.

Speaker B: There's no concrete planning at all.

Speaker C: So I'm sure most of you, you know, like anything you do on social media, if you've done podcasts in the past, we'll talk about you as a creator or you in the corporate world, but today we're talking, uh, to you for something slightly different. And I love that we want to dig into or get to know the side of you that's a leader, uh, that I don't know if you've shared a lot, but, you know, you. Four years under your belt, you.

Speaker B: This is the first time.

Speaker C: Yeah. Amazing.

Speaker B: M. I don't really talk about it because. Yeah. Nazar, right?

Speaker C: What.

Speaker B: What all Indians say.

Speaker C: We'll put on the screen, like, mashallah.

Speaker B: Like, evil eyes everywhere.

Speaker A: We use every culture's, you know, uh, thing. The evil eyes. Mashallah, Nazar. All of that.

Speaker B: Yeah. I get two sides of it all the time. Like, one side of it. They're like, don't post anything. Don't post the good stuff that's happening. Don't speak about it, because, you know, it's secrets you don't want to share a lot. Like, you know, like. Like, why is it you are what you are, how you do, and. And, you know, there's the other side. Share it. You know, people should know. Market yourself.

Speaker C: So it's always conflict, I think, even if you share. Right. You people can replicate the idea, but they're not you.

Speaker B: Yeah. So it's all in the brain. Like, people can try to copy as much as possible, but at the end of the day, I mean, like, I'm the chef, right?

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And, like, I think, you know, with leading people, it's not one thing on its own that is, like, leads to creating a good team. It's like little, little things.

Speaker B: It's always a ripple effect. And especially at that one point when something goes wrong, what do you do then?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: With this whole thing that has happened.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Because sometimes you just sprinkle extra salt.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. So if you. If you sort of go back to, like, reflect on four years. Right. What was the initial. Like, how did you feel when you're like, okay, now I'm an employer now I'm not just a, uh, team leader, or I'm just looking, you know, leading a project. Was there a moment that you're like, I have a different responsibility. I have to pay salaries every month. Like, do you remember that time?

Speaker B: So, weirdly enough, um, a lot of people told me I do need to take the stance of a business leader and an employer, but for some reason, I was unable to do that. Now, there are pros and cons to that as well, but because I took myself as much as an employee as anyone else, so when there was a lot of work to do, I was hustling with them and doing the work with them. I wasn't really Delegating much. Again, everything has its pros and cons, but I wasn't doing much of that. So I think because of that, a lot of people early on started, um, respecting me. Because a lot of the times when we went for team meetings and even the shows that we do, people couldn't distinguish between me and the others, and I kind of liked that. But a lot of people have told me that people should be able to distinguish the two because you are a leader.

Speaker C: So for me.

Speaker B: But I don't have that superiority complex, to be very honest. When there's work, I'm always in the dirt of it, and I think that's one good thing that I have done. But the biggest disadvantage of that is, uh, you end up mixing business with pleasure. Right. So a lot of the times, like, say, for example, I had a bad weekend or, like, I had a fight with a family member. So, you know, at times it comes out because I'm just so open with people. And I think over time, especially this year, I have realized the importance of not mixing business and personal. Yeah, but, no, to answer your question, in the beginning, it was quite difficult, but. But I didn't really position myself as a leader and stuff. Yeah. Um, and in the beginning as well, of course, there's a monetary crunch where everyone needs to figure out, um, you know, what salaries should be paid or how much should I get paid. I had no idea about that. Initially. I was telling my mom, I was like, I don't think I'll take a salary for the first few months. Yeah. And she's like, no, you are putting in the hard work. So I think my mom taught me a lot, given she's in the finance space. So I had a lot of guidance from her. Yeah. And, yeah, there were a few months where I didn't take a salary when things were a bit hard, but. Touchwood. All good.

Speaker A: Ram.

Speaker C: That's awesome. You know, uh, this actually resonates with, uh, something similar we were talking about in a previous episode with Sneha and Ravisha. Um, we were talking about.

Speaker B: I love them. Yeah, yeah. I know their story.

Speaker C: So we were talking about, you know, how a lot of these management gurus will tell you you should work on the business and not in the business, and, you know, you should remove yourself, uh, and delegate everything. And we were talking about, like, we actually like working in the business.

Speaker B: You know, I love that, but a lot of people don't. Yeah, a lot of people who have that superiority complex, I believe, are the ones who feel like, oh, I Started a business and now I need to do this. I can't, I can't meddle in that. I can't be in that. But I feel the reason the business got success and the reason we are where we are is because all of us uh, worked together. Because strategy is only as good as execution. So there is no point if you're just strategizing all these amazing things but you're not there to see how it's all coming together.

Speaker C: Plus, I think initially you're also learning along with your team. It's not like you have this amazing uh, plan and you just get soldiers in line to execute and it will all go to plan. The truth is it never goes to

Speaker A: plan and it's a small business. Right. So if you're going to take yourself out of doing the work, that's one less person doing something and you're building.

Speaker B: It's four years.

Speaker A: Right. So without you being in the thick of things, working in it, how will you know how to work on it? Because you've not seen what in it is.

Speaker B: And I wanted to know what's going wrong. Like because, because I pride myself in knowing how to fix things very quickly. So if I wasn't there when things were going good and bad, like I think a leader should be able to do both.

Speaker D: Both.

Speaker C: Yeah. You know it takes me back to like when we started also. Right. Like we had uh, we did a ah, strategy day between the two of us. You know, we spoke about things like what do we want the business to be? How do we communicate when we disagree on something? Um, that's very important. Yeah, we, so we sat down and that's the only thing I think we took from our corporate lives into, you know, know running a business. How are we going to set things up just the two of us. And now when I look back at that, right. I almost like smile because it was the right thing to do. But this like grand plan that we had put on paper.

Speaker B: Oh yeah.

Speaker C: Did not material works out.

Speaker B: It never really works out in the

Speaker A: Gen Z language I would say it

Speaker C: was such a dulu plan, you know, with.

Speaker A: But like uh, we believed in that Delulu plan because the, the logic in our minds is a logic that made sense to us but now in reflection that there is no logic. There was, you know, a plan for the sake of plan. Yeah. But you know, now we know what the substance is because you worked in it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Now you have the understanding to like make a more critical choice and a more conscious choice and then you know, grow uh, the business or work on the business because it comes with lived experience.

Speaker B: I think a lot of the times, uh, people don't realize that they need to experience stuff. Uh, because a majority of the industries now, given the technological advancements within AI and things like that, it's very important to acknowledge and understand and tell yourself that you are easily replaceable. So it doesn't matter how many degrees you have or what you've done, it's always the experience of it. Right. Unless you're a doctor or you're in rocket science. I, I personally feel everything is, you know, you can only build it through experience.

Speaker C: Plus, it's so fun.

Speaker B: Yeah, it is.

Speaker C: It's genuinely fun.

Speaker B: It is not hard work.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: To understand.

Speaker C: Exactly. Like waking up in the morning and knowing you have like a cool client to work with. And you know, we keep saying this because we're a small business. We work with a lot of other businesses that actually a lot of times less than 10 people in the organization. And so you'd think like, hey, it's less than 10 people. How much work could there be from an HR perspective? But there is a lot. And you know, especially businesses that are transitioning, they're like buying new businesses, moving people over. Uh, there's so much work to do and you can see firsthand the impact of doing it correctly.

Speaker A: Definitely.

Speaker C: And no one talks about these stories, but like, like I said, it is fun more than anything else. I absolutely love that element.

Speaker B: Yeah. And if it's not fun, the other side of it is you shouldn't have started the business.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. Because you should believe in it enough to be able to do the work and be in the midst of it. As if you think it's not fun.

Speaker A: It's a conscious choice that you did, you know, to work with sizes of that like 10 plus. Because that's where I felt as consulting, as a consulting firm where we can make real impact.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: It's not in drawing a big strategy, like you said, without the execution. The strategy is great on paper like ours was in the beginning of the life of this. Right. So. But the execution is where it actually unfolds and it builds something of its own.

Speaker B: Definitely.

Speaker A: And when it's 10 people, I personally get to see the impact of what we do at the employee level, at their family level, because there's a genuine bonding that happens. And yesterday we were doing a little bit of a, ah, sharing of the different clients. And it's also like such a beautiful variety of things that we work on. It's not, you know, um, it's at an employee level, individual level, and it makes a difference. I don't know any organization that can succeed without having an impact on an individual employee's life. Because that's how it flows back.

Speaker B: True. I think when a team is small and um, there is not much toxicity within the work environment as well, the team naturally grows much closer.

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker B: And it's a beautiful thing to see because, you know, like I am the employee at the end of the day and I'm seeing them and, and us being this close knit and everyone helping each other out, uh, when something goes wrong, that's, that's just a beautiful feeling because you want to do that. It's not like you're forced to do that. So you, you can see that as well quite organically.

Speaker C: That's so true. How big is your team now?

Speaker B: We're actually 16 in total. Uh, we are eight in Dubai, um, and eight in India.

Speaker C: Amazing.

Speaker A: It's time to say mashallah again.

Speaker C: Mashallah. Mashallah.

Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker D: Hi there. It's me interrupting myself again. The instinct that you're too small for HR is honestly completely understandable. But it's also where it quietly catches entrepreneurs out. Here's the math nobody lays out. A big company can have a people issue, a rough exit, a dispute, a costly wrong hire and absorb it. They have the buffer, the legal team and the cushion. A 15 person business doesn't. So one thing going sideways isn't just a line item. It's real money and real disruption felt straight away across the business. The event is the same size, but your ability to absorb it isn't. That's the bit that too small to bother feeling gets backwards. The real truth is this. Smaller team size also means higher stakes per mistake because there's nothing underneath to catch the fall. So if you want to ensure your business is well protected but unsure what HR support you actually need, we'd love to help. Check out the show notes for a link to book a call with us. No commitment, just a conversation. And now let's get back to the episode.

Speaker C: Can you remember when you hired your first employee? What was that experience like?

Speaker B: Oh my God. It was scary because I was like, whoa. I mean, how's this person going to be? Is this person going to understand my vision? Is this person going to know what to do? Uh, it was I think emotionally a roller coaster. But I think looking at it, like looking back, I think it was amazing because she's still within the company.

Speaker C: Amazing.

Speaker B: So she joined young and she grew with the company and I have seen how far she's grown as well. And it's a very beautiful feeling. But I think in the beginning when I wanted to hire someone, I had all the work on hand. So initially my, my motive was to just hire someone to do the task in hand right. With them and to work collaboratively with them. So I think that was the biggest one for me. But eventually I started moving into personality hires because, uh, like I don't remember anyone CV and I don't, I don't even look at anyone to be very honest. I love looking at the personality. I love meeting them, seeing how they are and then, you know, taking it from there. And I think that's the advantage of being in the creative industry because you are able to do that. I mean, my background, I have my master's in like oil and gas. Like I've studied nothing about graphic designing, creativity, videography, photography, so on and so forth. And now I'm in it. Right. And that's my full time job. So yeah, I am a, I am big on personality hires.

Speaker C: How did you find her?

Speaker B: I put it on my story. Uh, I think that was one advantage that I had because I had my own page. And I grew this following when I posted something on my stories because people share it and through word of mouth I did get a lot of applicants, of course. Right. I got hundreds of applicants and that's how I found her.

Speaker A: So. So

Speaker B: when I was doing Naomi de Souza, which is my page, I already had someone helping me out with my page. So when I started xndigitize, that person, her name is Zeba. I, uh, love her. I still speak with her a lot and she helps me a lot. So even till date, she helps me out whenever I do need something. But at that time when xndigitize began, she helped me go through all these applicants and everything because she knew me best. Right. And yeah, that's how we found Sharon.

Speaker C: That's your first employee who's still with you today. That's a cool story. So I remember, I think reading, um, I don't know if it was a post or something where you talked about how you guys did your first performance review under the stars.

Speaker B: Yes. I loved that. Yeah. So what we started was I realized as the team grew, more and more people started telling me about each other.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Um, I mean, I don't know if I can say this on a podcast, but like everyone started bitching about each other. Right. Maybe you can just censor that. And, and that's when I realized I was like, wait a second. I come from a pure corporate background and in my personal opinion, that's how toxicity begins.

Speaker C: Correct.

Speaker B: Right. As soon as you start talking about each other and they don't know what's on, going, going on because at the end of the day, whatever we're talking about each other are performance based.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Uh, it's not like we're saying, oh, that person is ugly or the person is, you know, not doing. No one does that. Everyone's beautiful in the team but, but no one does that. Everything is performance based. Right. So I was like, wait a second. And then I did some research and I, and I saw that a lot of companies, I think Google, Netflix, a lot of them actually operate on open forum feedbacks. And it's not necessary that it's a whole company wide thing because there are thousands of people in these organizations. But small, small teams, they actually tend to do that depending on the manager who's leading that group. So I was like, let's try it out. And it's honestly done so well.

Speaker C: Really?

Speaker B: Yeah. I think in the beginning everyone was skeptical and they were really nervous because everyone's dirty laundry is out there and I am telling everybody, um, and even they're telling everybody, you know, the things they can improve on and the good things. So we don't really see it as pros and cons and positives, negatives. We say, you know, constructive, uh, feedback or things you can work on and the positives. And it's a mandate that there needs to be at least three positives.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Because a lot of the times people are so held deep into negativity, they reflect, used to think how what that person did positively.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: And, and that worked really, really well. And we say minimum two to three, uh, things to work on as well. And yeah, like I said in the beginning it was a bit difficult. People were scared. Um, I think people were also scared to tell me what my feedback was. So I didn't keep myself out of it. I was like, tell me as well, because even I want to improve. What can I change in the business? And yeah, it's worked really well and we've been doing it till date.

Speaker C: How does that make you feel? Like when you got your own feedback

Speaker B: from the team, I, I actually felt great. I ah, didn't have an issue with that.

Speaker C: But like, did they, did they identify like blind spots that you would not have thought about?

Speaker B: They did, yeah.

Speaker C: Which is the cool bit.

Speaker B: Yeah, they have, they have openly told me things like you need to get better at this part of a community communication. Or for example, when you speak to the client, for example, this way, they may perceive it as this way because everyone has different personalities at the end of the day. Right. And, and in the business, everyone knows they have autonomy because autonomy increases accountability. Because I hate micromanaging and, and I decided to be that person because I hated, I hated being micromanaged by my bosses and my ex job.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. So I was just like, I am not going to be that person. So because there's autonomy, they have more accountability. So I'm like, if you're doing this wrong, you will have to face the consequences yourself if you don't follow my advice as well. And I feel people should learn to fail.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: But going back to the question, when they told me these things, it obviously helped me as well take a step back because no business coach, and I mean my mom as well gives me a lot of advice, but no one is able to probably give me advice to the extent my own team can because I spent eight hours a day with them.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: So yeah, it has been pretty helpful. And sometimes they also say, oh, when you're a meeting, sometimes you fidget a lot. It's something that I didn't know because you fidget and you don't know. I don't know when I'm moving my legs. So these kind of things were very insightful.

Speaker A: It's like you're one person, right. But there's 10 eyes on you and they see so many different dimensions and aspects that you, you don't have that opportunity to do that to yourself. So it's great that they are taking the time to understand you and give you feedback. Like, what's more.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: No one else will do that, right?

Speaker B: Uh, yeah. And the thing is, no one in the team took the constructive feedback personally because they saw that everyone else is getting it as well.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. So when you're on the same boat, like if all your friends are failing, you feel a bit better, right?

Speaker C: Oh, trust me, I was the one who felt better.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean?

Speaker C: So.

Speaker B: So yeah, it's just a very psychological thing. And, and that way they also know that if there's any bitching happening, like between those six months, because we do it twice a year, so if there's anything that's happening, they know that it will come out during the open forum. Um, right. So. So there's nothing like just behind closed doors and people just talking about everyone. And I think that's the first thing and the best thing that I have been able to do for the business to immediately remove the toxicity. And no one's talking bad about everyone. And. And I think the other thing that happened was because of that flexibility and people already doing that, they're actually comfortable enough to do it even while they're working. So if someone is being bad or, you know, just something is not working out between two personalities, they actually voice that opinion and they're able to resolve it immediately.

Speaker C: That's great.

Speaker B: So that's also something that I've noticed happening. So when I look at it from an Eagle Eyes views, I was like, oh my God, this is so cute.

Speaker C: It is.

Speaker B: So. Yeah.

Speaker C: Especially if it worked. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Eldona is lucky. I gave her lots of feedback on her daily.

Speaker B: She's like, literally my.

Speaker A: The, you know, what do you see? You have the angel and the demon.

Speaker B: She's the. No, I agree, I agree. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: And I'm also very lucky because she listens to my feedback.

Speaker B: No, that is very important.

Speaker C: Right?

Speaker B: That is very important. But I feel like it has to be maybe combined with the goods as well, because I feel when we keep hearing the bads, we're just like, ah, like, give me a break. Am I doing anything good?

Speaker C: So, um, yeah, but like, people associate the word feedback with bad stuff. It's also good stuff, you know?

Speaker B: Like, I think it's because of previous work experience, because even for me. And when I told them as well, because a lot of people in my team, they've had bad experiences in the past during their internships or during their first jobs. And that's why they didn't like the whole feedback thing. So I wanted to make it an open environment to change that logic, you know, because it's just some preconceived notion that feedbacks are bad. Even I think feedbacks are bad when I first started off, because that's how people give it. And sometimes it's useless feedback. It's also.

Speaker A: That's what's glorified in every other space, right? That a bad feedback is more, um, interesting to watch a video on than to see a good feedback. Because nobody is interested in. It's like drama is what sells, right? And bad feedback is drama, like tough parents. So if you don't show drama, then what's the point? So people have bad feedback, they talk about bad feedback and then they criticize bad feedback, but nobody's talking about how to make it good.

Speaker B: I hate that. Which is why I said, uh, the mandate of at least three. Yeah, you know, at least. Uh, because there were times where there was a person in the team and they weren't really performing well at all. And then, and then the team members, they asked me in private, what can I put? Like, like, what are the three? Right. And then I was like, first of all, if we take a step back, granted that, granted that this person is not performing optimally the way we want to, but there's a reason we also hired that person, right? So there has to be at least three. Like, maybe the person listens well, maybe the person speaks well. Yeah, maybe the person gets X job done properly, but y job is not good. So if you really think about it, you are able to find at least some good thing. Probably there are many bad. And then they may, you know, be let go from the organization, but there has to be something.

Speaker C: Yeah. This actually reminds me of a, uh, like an instant not with, with my two nieces and nephews. I think it was a nephew and a niece.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: And they like were fighting over something really silly. And so, you know, we had to take them apart and like talk to them. And uh, I think I asked my nephew, I'm like, you know, you have. Can you say something nice about your cousin? And he was so upset. He said, uh, he said, well, she's my cousin. That was the nicest thing that he could come up with. This poor girl is like, oh, he's sweet, he's very kind. He's all of this. And then he says, uh, she's just my cousin. Like, that's the kindest thing I can find to say. I felt we had to tell him no. Like, think about it, you know, there's good qualities to her.

Speaker B: They've done that. True, true.

Speaker D: Most HR platforms were built for systems. Circly was built for people hiring HRIs, payroll and compliance. Finally in one place, one source of truth for your entire team. AI native ATS that screens faster and surfaces the right candidates and payroll that runs without any manual reconciliation. No more spreadsheets, no more stitching systems together, just your team running the way it should.

Speaker C: Book your demo@circly.com can you think of um, another people decision or like people related decision that you made earlier on in your business that still impacts you today?

Speaker B: I think one was definitely the open Forum, um, feedback session that we had. The second one was actually personality hires because I personally feel that a person who does a good job today isn't necessarily going to do a good job consistently otherwise throughout the rest of the month. But I feel when it comes to personality hires in general, again, with respect to the industry that I am in, as long as you've done the good work and they have the right personality, it automatically makes the workplace environment fun. So even in our job, job, uh, even in our job forms, when we're looking out for people in those Google forms, we have things like, for example, crack a joke, like what's the funniest joke, for example, that you heard, or any mental health concerns that, you know, you want to flag with us. And personally speaking, I have not seen anyone else do, um, that. Right. And we talk even in the job description. We kind of write the pros of the role and the cons of the role. So say, for example, there are two kinds of people in my personal opinion in a professional environment. One are the people who want to do a monotonous role where they kind of go from nine to five, they know what they're supposed to do, or this is the industry that they want to be in, and then they just want to leave. The other kind of people are dynamic who, for example, want to get into multiple industries and they're okay with doing a few hours here and there. Um, we do focus a lot on work life balance. But the dynamic environment serves sometimes can be mentally exhausting because you're not into just one industry that you specialize in. You're doing multiple things and at the same time you're probably not going to do just one thing. Say, for example, graphic designing. You may have to do some strategic work as well. So these are the two people that I personally found. And when you hire personality hires who are curious about everything, who sometimes are very funny, who are very good with banter, who have really good comebacks, you know, those kind of people usually fall under bucket number two. Right. So I have personally seen that the longevity and the retention of people within the organization are the ones that fall under the second bucket. Because personally, that is who I am as well. I would hate just being in one industry for the rest of my life just because it's a comfortable space. So there is no right or wrong. I feel there are pros and cons to both.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, even in terms of how fast you can go up in your career or how fast you can make extra money. Yeah, but, but, but that is one thing that I have focused on a lot. So if I, uh, like I see potential, I don't see the skill that's being shown in the portfolio. So that's why I don't look at the CV as well. So uh, so I don't care if you come from a big company or you just come straight out of college.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because a lot of the people in our team are Gen Z's and they have, and they are currently managing some of the largest trade shows in the world, if not just the Middle East.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: And they're able to do that because we have each other's support and, and they are very dynamic in nature and they're not like, this is what I want to do. This is the only thing I'm, I'm going to do. But again, yeah, it depends on, it depends on a person's perspective on what they want to be.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I love that you said that. Right. Because I think Gen Z unfortunately has such a negative rep, uh, for being a particular way. But you have a team of um, like amazing Gen Z, uh, employees, like talk to us about how they operate, the way you understand them that can

Speaker B: time.

Speaker C: I thought I was innovative.

Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. I've never really answered it because I, I didn't quite know how to answer this question. I feel with Gen Z, they're very personal. They're not like our parents. Right. Because, because I feel, I feel a lot of the baby boomers and older they have been in work environments, obviously their bosses are older to them or the same age. They have very structured approaches. If you don't do this, you're going to get this. If you're not. If you're going to do this, well, you're going to get this, you're going to get. So it's very like a supply chain method. Right. I think with Gen Z's is I learned a lot about it through my sister and based on my personality as well. Um, I think in terms of the decisions I make and the way I think is mature, but I think in terms of my personality, I am more like childish may be the wrong word, but maybe not as mature. Like, let's just leave it at that. So I feel with my Gen Zs, I operate like them, I talk like them, I behave like them and I understand what they want. Right. I think, I think Gen Zs love flexibility. Right. And that's why I spoke about autonomy in the beginning as well. When they are provided that flexibility, they feel they're able to make their own decisions and, and they actually end up doing that at X and digitize. So say for example, someone wants to, um, go for lunch with their friend. They are actually able to do that because I tell them, you need to ensure the work is done by that specific time. At times I purposely, um, See, I purposely don't give them advice. I know they're doing something wrong and I, and I allow that to happen. And then when shit hits the roof, they can see the repercussions of their actions.

Speaker C: Ah.

Speaker B: So the thing is, Gen Z's hate being continuously told, you need to do this, you need to do that. Because they don't want that. Right. And I think that's one thing that I did really well. So I'm part of them. So if one day they want to order jollibee, um, I'm eating it with them. And in fact they introduced me to um, jollibee. So the flex is accessibility, I think is one thing that they appreciate from X and digitized. And they don't keep things in them because they are also very blunt people. They want to be able to voice their opinion and they want to be heard. So if they tell me that, hey, Naomi, this is too much work right now and we do need to hire another person. Because I believe in the work life balance, because I'm that person myself, I immediately hired someone else. So this week alone we hired like three. Three people because the work was increasing so much and the work life balance was getting tipped a bit. So that is also another reason, like, you know, why they would stay in an organization.

Speaker A: I think Gen Z is teaching us how to, how to work differently and we have to listen and how to

Speaker B: speak up as well. How to stand up.

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Because we have. I'm reflecting on my time right. When I was in my 20s starting at work, I, um, I still, I would be that Gen Z for them because I joined an organization where everybody was 20 years older than me.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So they have done. This is their second career. Like they have gone because it was oil. Yes. They have worked offshore. They have done the hard yards. This is where they've come to, uh, be before retirement. And I've come with this young blood and I'm, I'm doing all this and

Speaker C: they're like, you know, chill.

Speaker A: Like there is no.

Speaker B: That is to be so into. And so that's actually so true. Yeah. Because based on what she said as well, that's another reason why, um, they are comfortable within the space because everyone else are Gen Z. Yeah. So they don't feel, they don't feel out of place. So I feel organically the environment that's created has been, has been really good. Yeah.

Speaker A: I was like their grandchildren's age and it didn't help that I was in HR were telling them how to manage their people. So they, The. The dynamics were really, really odd and. But I had to slow down to fit into that. Right. Because I was one voice, like you said. They, uh, everybody was not my age around me. Everybody literally was 20 years older than me. Yeah. Ah. So I had to, you know, go the other way. But there was an appreciation for that as well. There was better. Like, it was tried and tested, so I didn't have to work so hard on testing. I could do the successful thing. So there were bits of it that I definitely enjoyed. Uh, but they also saw a little more. They were a little more experimental as well, so we found a middle ground. But in the beginning, it was a lot of, like, conflict and friction because I was like, why you? Why. Why is. Why are we doing it this way? Like, if you remember Modern Family, that double click, uh, the Jay, who's the father, the grandfather, they kept saying double click it. And he would like, double click. And that was exactly my experience. But I'm like, with the mouse going all over the place and they're like, here and then there and then there, and I'm like, oh, my God, give me strength. But, um, at the end of it, gradually we found a way to work with each other. But if I had a bigger team of Gen Z, I think that would have made things a lot better.

Speaker B: Different, definitely. And I, I feel as long as both parties, like you mentioned, because there was such a big age gap, as long as both parties are willing to adapt, I think automatically that becomes work. Because a lot of men, a lot of millennials that I have seen are very strict. They are quite like, they, they have that superiority complex where they are like, oh, I'm an employer and these people got a. Of list. Listen to me. But, but like a lot of the times the team makes the rules at X and digitized.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like, uh, because if, if I make the rules, it's not going to work out. So even. Even if I were to make a rule or something that we all need to follow, I explain it. I never enforce anything without explaining. So a lot of the times it may seem like I'm giving a lot of Bhashan. Right. Lectures for the here for the list listeners, I don't just say, okay, this is what we're gonna do from, from here on.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, I do it in two ways. Either I explain that this is the reason I'm making the decision, or I allow them to do things their way intentionally. So I can say, this is why we need to do it this Right. So, so when they're learning in the job, they are more open to listening to me on, on why I do what I do. Yeah. And that's been very, very helpful.

Speaker C: Yeah. Uh, I think, you know, a lot of people when we talk about Gen Zs.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Everyone, the expectation is that Gen Zs are the challenging population and they must do things differently. No one ever thinks like, hey, what can we learn from them? And what do we need to. If. How do we need to evolve? Because there's, you know, there's a large group of, um, you know, Gen Z's that are seeing things differently for a reason.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: You know, and like what.

Speaker B: Right. Reasons.

Speaker C: Uh, and.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: And what can come out of it. And evolution in any aspect has never been a bad thing. Right. Yeah.

Speaker B: And I think the people who are negating Gen Z's are refusing to see that even in their generations there are bad apples. Yeah. Right. I feel in every industry, like just how people hate on influence. Influences. Right.

Speaker D: In.

Speaker B: In every industry and in every generation. Yeah. People should acknowledge the fact that there are bad apples everywhere. Even in hospitals that are bad doctors. Like, everyone's had bad experiences. So people just saying, oh, Gen Z's are horrible, or Gen Z's are this. Gen Z's are that you just don't know how to work with them or you just don't want to find a middle ground because you're so stuck up in your own ways. Like, I mean, grow up.

Speaker A: It's a little convenient, uh, to say that they are the ones and we're okay.

Speaker B: No, no. Yeah.

Speaker A: If we were okay, there should not have been this problem. We should have been adaptable, flexible, all of that from the start.

Speaker B: Yeah. And when I said personality hires as well, I would much rather work with a group of, uh, fun people, a fun bunch, versus just some boring people who just want to tick off a checklist at the end of the day. So, you know, finding that right balance is so important because if you're going to be spending eight hours a day, like you spend more time with your colleagues and than even your own family. Right. Like, like, let's face it. So people should want to come to work.

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker B: And imagine getting bored in that environment.

Speaker C: And even you, like, I would leave.

Speaker B: I'd be like, ew, no way. I don't want to be in this company.

Speaker C: You know, like, uh, why would you want to make anything boring? Like, what's the point of that?

Speaker B: But that's what being strict, like corporate culture is, which a, um, Lot of people do.

Speaker A: No. I remember asking somebody in an interview, what do you do for one, for fun? It's like, oh, I didn't see that in the job description that I had

Speaker B: to do something for fun. Oh my God. Oh my God. So I do meet some of them when we're hiring new people and, and they're really good on paper. And I'm like, nope.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Nope. Because. Because you can't build attitude.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: You can't do that.

Speaker C: Yeah. This is also like a running theme in all of our, like, previous episodes where everyone, you know, who spoke about hiring people, they're like, skills is almost number two. Attitude is so important. And you know, uh, our previous guest, Malvika, she said, she said sometimes people are so good that you're too good for me. Like, this is not a vibe match.

Speaker B: I can.

Speaker A: So true.

Speaker B: Yes, yes.

Speaker C: And so like, yes, you're great on paper, but no, you know, I admire you so much on paper that I can't hire you is what she said.

Speaker B: That experience that I, I completely get it.

Speaker C: Have you had, um, you know, any challenges in terms of you thought a certain way to manage people or look after people would work? And I'm sure clearly it has. Right. But there'll always be that one instance where you're like, um, I wish I did something wrong. Yeah. Like maybe I could have done something differently. Did you ever have that?

Speaker B: Oh, yeah, A lot of times it's when I have, um. It's when I've, uh. Like at times you miss the red flags just because you like someone so much.

Speaker C: Yeah. That's such a good point.

Speaker B: Yeah. So sorry.

Speaker C: I have to say I think that applies in life as well, not just with the team.

Speaker B: Yeah. I always tell my team that as well. That we should not miss red flags. So sometimes, like I, I know I spoke a lot about personality and at times I could contradict myself, but when someone's personality is so good and you want to retain them in an organization, but you miss the red flags, you kind of months later you go like, oh my God, what did I do? Yeah, right.

Speaker C: I knew this. I saw this.

Speaker B: Yeah. Like, I saw this.

Speaker D: But.

Speaker B: But then, but then the team self reflects and they're like, oh my God, how didn't I see this? How didn't I see this? How did I. Yeah, I see this. So I think we've had that.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: A few times. Right. Like I said, pros and cons to everything.

Speaker A: So.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was one thing. And the other thing is I think sometimes we appreciated people for doing, for doing good work. Like say for example from A to D, but from E to Z, they're not good. So I think a lot of the times as well we have, we had retained people in the organization just because they do, yeah, alphabets properly. But then the rest are just, you know, bad. So I think now I'm a little more serious about it when I see someone who's just not a good fit or who start lying because sometimes people do that as well. Like they go like, oh no, this person told me to do that, but that person never asked them to do it. So I feel the more red flags that you miss early on in the business that ends up becoming your operating system in the future.

Speaker C: So now that you have that experience, what are your non negotiables in when you bring on a team member?

Speaker B: Oh my God, disrespect. Yeah, Lies and lack, um, of accountability. Because as personal as that sounds, because a lot of people may just say, oh no, their skills should be good, they should be able to do good job. But um, a lot of the times I have seen people who disrespect very cunningly and very slyly, but you don't see it because they pass it off as a joke.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, you know, such a good point.

Speaker B: Exactly. So a lot of people don't, um, don't see that because some person may laugh, but the person who's. And the receiving, yeah, if the joke is on you, it hurts you, but this person is suffering over here. So a lot of the times if someone loves a specific person, they also don't end up bringing it up, you know, even if it's an open for feedback.

Speaker C: This actually reminds me of a lot of like house parties where the butt of jokes were all of the women and everyone thought it was so fun.

Speaker B: And you only see it now, right. Like you look back and you're like,

Speaker A: oh, I, I remember even having awkward looks at that time. But it was dismissed like, yes, that

Speaker B: I'm being the, that you're stuck up.

Speaker A: You know, I'm the one who's busting the party. Or like not, not the one who's playing, uh, or finding it funny. Something's wrong with me. Actually, it wasn't funny at all.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So I think for me, because you're spending most of your time at a workplace, a lot of the time the fine line between personal and professional actually gets blurred because there's only so much you can hide yourself. The truth about a person's personality could eventually Come out in a workplace. You know what I mean? So, yeah, uh, how much ever personal that this man may sound, it's very important for me to just have a good person in the team who doesn't have that level of attitude. So as long as you don't disrespect someone, as long as you don't lie that this was your task. But this is what you said. No, this is. He said, she said stuff. You know, that's something I just cannot accept. But the one. I think. I mean this as well is completely debatable. But I'm a very black or white person. I. I usually don't have a black. That joke. No, she's white as well. Look at her shoes. You are what you see.

Speaker C: Literally. Yeah.

Speaker B: So I. I really don't have a gray area. And that at times can affect my personal life as well. Yeah, I. I can have a relationship with someone for many years, but depending on how badly I've been hurt, like, I. I don't. I rarely forgive, depending on what was done and the stuff that I find out, things like that. So, yeah, it's just. Yeah. Disrespect, lies, a lack of accountability.

Speaker C: I resonate with that. I think I'm also pretty black and white. You know, I have no headspace for gray. That's my thing.

Speaker B: But sometimes it's so bad. Right. I'm saying from two people who are black and white.

Speaker C: No, I think it just makes life easier.

Speaker B: You know, that's what I tell my husband and my mom. But they do care.

Speaker A: I have to tell this sometimes to the clients that actually you're in a gray space, and it's like, oh, nobody has told us that. Everybody's trying to.

Speaker B: But are you black and white as well?

Speaker A: Oh, I'm. I'm okay with gray as well.

Speaker B: Okay. Yeah.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker C: You are very. Like, sometimes it makes me angry that she's okay with gray. I'm like, how can you be okay with gray? Me too.

Speaker B: Like, I feel like those people get too diplomatic, but I get it. Like, I think. I think at times when, um, my. My. My husband, my sister, and my mom are like three people in a pot. Like. Like. Like, I don't know how I'm associated with them because we're like polar opposites. But, like, I think when they try to explain their point of view to me, I. I get it, but I just get it. I'm not going to implement. I understand. I just get it. Yeah. Because. Because I just feel that if. If a person. I don't Know, I'm saying personal life, a person liked me so much, like they wouldn't do something, uh, bad enough to hurt me and make me feel this way. Like all these small, small arguments, not a big deal.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: But it depends what it is.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: And I'm sure the listeners would probably have at least one incident coming to their head, you know, based on this. Cuz everyone's experienced that at some point in their life, you know, so when

Speaker C: we have like a, an incident that I'm just like, you know, like you said black and white. Right. I'm like, nope, unacceptable, not going to happen.

Speaker B: Yeah, gone.

Speaker C: And so Elrona will say, yes, you know, unacceptable. And then she's like, but if we do it like, no.

Speaker B: Oh my God. Exactly the same with me. Exactly the same with me.

Speaker A: Wanted argument.

Speaker B: There you go. No, because the person has the opportunity to do that again. Like that's what I feel. So sometimes when I have been gray, like I think, I think sometimes people who are black and white, their intuition is probably so strong, I mean, if I may say so myself, that a lot of the times when I've given, given that opportunity, it's happened again.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then sometimes I see that that person's probably done that with other people and then I'm just like, no. And then that's when I tell, you know, my peas in a pot. See, I told you. I think I don't want to go through that.

Speaker C: Yeah. I think I always say, like, don't let someone disrespect you twice. If they've done it once, then like, I'm done, you know. Uh, but I'm also glad that she has a different perspective because it's good

Speaker B: to see different perspectives. Yeah. Because people like us.

Speaker C: Because sometimes like, she will, um, you know, within the business as well, we're very clear on our sort of areas of what we look after. And if, um, the other person has a different view and chooses to execute in their area differently, the other, you know, partner supports it 100%. Uh, so this is, you know, like, we may disagree, but if you've chosen, you've made a decision that I'm supporting, supporting it 100, whether I agree with it or not.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker C: And I've seen that sometimes when you operate in the gray the way she does, it actually leads to a very positive outcome.

Speaker B: I agree. So I. No, I know, I agree. That's what I'm saying. Sometimes there are positives to it.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: So as much as I'd love to be right, you know, it's good to have that balance because. Because I see in reality that it leads to a positive outcome. The other thing is, I feel like I'm more comfortable with being a little confrontational. Like, I don't have a problem with that.

Speaker B: Me, too. Oh, my God. It feels like we're the same and

Speaker C: you're like my sister, my peas in a pot.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because me too. I'm so comfortable because I. I don't want to. I feel the feelings that you submerge within yourself. It comes out in different ways, right. Because you have this resentment in you, and I don't want that. Like, if you've done shit to me, I'm going to be like, yo, like, wtf?

Speaker D: Like, and so I. I have a

Speaker C: reputation in my family. I have a reputation in, you know, like, the workplace. I've developed this reputation of like, oh, she's the, you know, almost not nice person. But I'm like, it's not that.

Speaker D: I.

Speaker C: It's not personal. First of all, it's black and white. It's either this or it's that, you

Speaker B: know, oh, my God, we're so alive. But, yeah, we don't have those many people who like us. Then, like, yeah, you. I, like, there are people who either love us or who hate us.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker B: And there's always a story to tell with people who don't like us. Yes. Maybe your sister.

Speaker C: I don't know who she's talking, but

Speaker A: I'll say this, right? Uh, like, with Desma, whatever she's explaining, she, like, she said it's not personal. She'll be friends and she'll laugh and crack a joke. And that person who's got it previously, you know, feedback and direct, they're like, she's. She's laughing with me now. I thought she, you know, was angry at me. That was feedback. That's not, like, how she judges you. She's not judging you. She's just giving you, like, an opinion.

Speaker B: Like, I don't hate you. I'm just telling you about the situation.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker B: Like, I didn't like the situation. I'm not. I'm not, you know, discrediting your being.

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker A: And I get to watch that, right? I get to watch Is it funny for you? Feedback. That person thinking that she's judging that person. And then the next time she's cracking a joke and that person's like, don't know where to go, what to say. And I'm, like, looking at it and

Speaker B: I'm like, oh, this is so cool.

Speaker C: This happens on Our family group a lot, you know, someone will say something or share something that is extremely inappropriate, uh, and I'll call them out with the hundred other people that we have on the family group, and then two days later, it's their birthday, and I'm like, hey, have the best day, you know? And it's like, wait, two days ago you were, like, telling that person off. Two days later you're, like, wishing them well. Genuinely. I'm like, it is not personal. Uh, this is not cool. It's not cool. But, like, you should have a happy birthday.

Speaker B: But I think only personalities like mine can understand because we're the same. M. So, yeah, I don't think a lot of people can or will rather

Speaker C: understand, or if you're related by blood, then they don't have a choice.

Speaker B: Then they don't have a choice. Yeah. So even for me, my mom, mom,

Speaker A: husband, and my sister.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they're like, okay, cool. Like, I get that. So even if anything happens, like, say, for example, like, my husband gets pissed at something, only my mom can explain to him that, okay, cool. This is what she implies. This is what she means. She's not coming from a bad place. So. But. But it takes a long time.

Speaker C: It does, it does, it does. How has your leadership style evolved, do you think? In four years,

Speaker B: it's evolved a lot? I think I have learned the art of delegation. I am a control freak. I love things to happen my way. So a lot of the times, although I would trust the team, a lot of my work would not be delegated, and I'd be working 12 to 14 hours a day. Um, and I'd be dying with the work. But I think that is something that I have learned to do. And the art of delegation also. Also kind of goes towards being able to hire people because it's not just delegating with the team that exists right now. It's also knowing when to hire someone.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Because that has been a difficult one because at times, people are just slow because of what's going on in their personal life. So to recognize that as well is really important in order to even narrow down everyone's tasks to see if there's actually a need to hire another person. And so this is something that I've learned to do as well, too, because when the team says I need to hire someone, I actually do now. But I think in the past, I hadn't when I probably should have, just because I wanted to have this control to keep everything within the team. So that's One and the other thing is I think I already mentioned this, the uh, not mixing business with pleasure. I still am learning how to do that though because I still do like being personal with my team because I feel like I said, you know, we spend eight hours a day with these people so having, having some personal bond I feel is healthy. But I feel that line is sometimes difficult to, to dictate. I think, I think these are two of the things dominantly that I have changed in my leadership style because the other things have actually been the same. Like I'm still doing the work where it's necessary. If sometimes, you know, my copywriter is busy, I would still do the captions or I would still edit, edit videos. Although we do have a bank of editors, I'm very happy to do it. In fact I like it. I feel it keeps my skill set alive. Uh, uh, and I'm not replaceable and with the new technology that comes about or the new softwares I actually learn about the new things that are coming out. You know, because things are coming out almost on a weekly basis. So if I lose my skill set and for example editing a video like I, I never see a task beneath me.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, fair enough.

Speaker A: Like how would, how do you. It's been four years and you said some of your team members have last. How do you develop them? Like what, what do you do to help them grow and develop on. Within X and digitize?

Speaker B: We have regular conversations, actually regular communication. We have stand ups every day. Um, that's a given. A lot of companies do. But apart from that these open forum feedbacks help and, and when these individuals want to grow within the company and learn new skill sets, that is something that I am very open to. So it's something that I personally have done with them. So because, because I don't think in the creative industry even a social media manager for example is expected to know everything. Copywriting, um, like editing, posting, community management, graphic designing, everything. Right. Um, so I feel a lot of the times people may not want to do something and a lot of the times people may want to learn more. So because I was doing this for myself on my own page even before the company started, I have been able to learn all these skill sets um, forcefully and also because I just wanted to a bit of both and um, because of my previous jobs as well. So I think they are getting the evidence of growing in the company with their skill sets. So no day is the same like you learn something new every day because we are that second bucket that I spoke about that dynamic environment. That is number one. Number two is when the business does well. Obviously, when a business does well, the biggest indication is the money, Right?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So they do get the bonuses and they do get salary increases. Right. It's not just promise. Yeah. I feel a lot of managers say, oh, when the business does well, you know, you will get it, you will see it, you'll grow within the business. A lot of the times I've been told that, and I have not seen any evidence of it. So a lot of the times I feel in the beginning, when we are getting a new hire, there is no reason for them to believe me. But because there is this team that's built and I have given them evidence of my promises, that is something that's been very, you know, something that I pat my back on.

Speaker C: As you should.

Speaker B: Yeah. And that's another reason why they believe me. So unless they want to do something entirely different or they want to find themselves. Themselves, or they want to move to another industry altogether, then, of course, a person may leave. But I think a lot of the times we are able to develop with an X and digitize what other companies do as well. Because I have that corporate experience, so I know what's worked in the past, what's not worked. So I kind of take everything with a pinch of salt and I kind of implement that. Uh, yeah, so that's worked really well.

Speaker C: And so my final question to you, Naomi, is, where do people. People find you?

Speaker B: And xndigitize www.xndigitize.com and @xndigitize on Instagram.

Speaker C: Amazing. Thank you so much for your time, for chatting with us, for sharing so openly. Thank you so much for having me. Um, yeah, I hope you had a good time.

Speaker B: It was a lot of, um, fun.

Speaker C: Amazing. Thank you so much.

Speaker B: And.

Speaker C: Yep, that's a wrap.

Speaker D: That's a wrap. If you stayed with us till the very end. Thank you so much, so much. It really means a lot. But before you go, a small ask. Turns out that 86% of you watch but haven't subscribed yet. Subscribing helps us keep these conversations going and bring you more insights like this. So please hit that subscribe button. If there's someone you'd love for us to feature on the podcast, drop their names in the comments below. And if you're a founder, uh, with a story to tell of building something that has lasted, we'd love to hear from you. Thank you again for being here and see you in the next episode.