How to Build High-Performing Teams: Leadership Lessons from a Symphony Orchestra

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Speaker 2: Four WN Radio. This is Beyond Confidence with your host 10 - > w park. Do you want to live a more fulfilling life? 11 - > Do you want to live your legacy and achieve your personal, professional, 12 - > and financial goals? 13 - >

Speaker 3: Well? 14 - >

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Speaker 3: Good morning listeners, and it's a beautiful day today, Sunny Shanning, 25 - > it's Tuesday. I'm here with you. So music, music is 26 - > something that's a universal language that transcends boundaries, borders and humans. 27 - > And what has music got to do with leadership? That's 28 - > what peopill be exploring today. And also I want to 29 - > thank each and every one of you who have got 30 - > a books. Especially in today's world, there is so much 31 - > noise if you're looking to become an influencer. And now 32 - > those days are gone where AI was just question mark. 33 - > It's here to stay and AI is already stepping into 34 - > our daily life. So how can you get ahead of it? 35 - > How can you develop skills and how can you not 36 - > lose the existing skills if you're looking for it? And 37 - > invite you to check out our books and also know 38 - > that partial proceeds from our bookscode to Kiwa dot org 39 - > because it's important to help each other out. Well, let's 40 - > bring in our guest. Welcome Charles. 41 - >

Speaker 4: Hello, Diviya, good to see you really looking forward to 42 - > this conversation, looking. 43 - >

Speaker 3: Forward to it as well. So Charles tell us, do 44 - > you recall a moment or a person in your life 45 - > that'll have to pass to Mark on you? Oh? 46 - >

Speaker 4: Gosh, so many. I have had a succession of heroes 47 - > in my life. There might be reasons why we might 48 - > explore those why I've had them, But yes, ever since 49 - > I was little, Uh it could be so I played 50 - > the guitar, the classic guitar, so all those years ago. 51 - > A big influence when I was in my teens was 52 - > a guitarist called John Williams, who I still believe is 53 - > absolutely at the peak of the guitar world. I mean 54 - > he's he's now in his eighties, so he's okay, not 55 - > maybe not currently, but he's a giant in the work 56 - > in the world of music. But I suppose. And then 57 - > there have been all philosophers that have been scientists. Because 58 - > I'm very interested in physics, so I could talk about 59 - > Richard Feynman, the physicist. But I think when I think 60 - > of really important people, I mean these are not people 61 - > I have met. Obviously, I think of the great composers, 62 - > because I have those people in my mind all the time. 63 - > So I always have music in my head. I used 64 - > to think everyone must, but I don't think they do. 65 - > But I do. I have music going round in my head, 66 - > as you know as we speak. And the great composers BArch, Bethoven, Mozart, 67 - > et cetera, are absolute giants of twentieth of Western civilization. 68 - > And to have and if I had to pick one 69 - > of them, it would be Bach, John Sebastian Bach, and 70 - > so to have somebody like that, if you like looking 71 - > over your shoulder all the time, I mean it's these 72 - > These are such giants that it stops you getting above yourself. 73 - > I think when you realiz as what real, unimaginable genius is, 74 - > and you said it could be Bethoven, it could be Mozart. 75 - > In the world of art, I mean, it's not just music, 76 - > but it's music for me. In the world of art, 77 - > it could be Rembrandt. In the world of literature, it 78 - > could be whole host, it could be Soldier Nits, and 79 - > it could be all sorts of people. So, but these 80 - > are truly impressive people. So but for me it would 81 - > be Bach. 82 - >

Speaker 3: I think, yeah, And what impression did it leave on you? 83 - >

Speaker 4: Well? I think, okay, Bach covers as music does every 84 - > possible emotion. 85 - >

Speaker 3: It's it. 86 - >

Speaker 4: It conveys all the things that words can't. It really 87 - > starts where music where words stop. If you like, that's 88 - > that or they certainly do for me, and I think 89 - > of all all the emotions. I mean there's you can 90 - > think of the tragedy, and but for me, they I 91 - > think Bach does joy better than anyone else. Beethoven is 92 - > being joyous. There aren't many works of his that I 93 - > when I think of joy, but there are so many 94 - > and that's fine. I mean he does lots of other things. 95 - > Baked Open is wonderful, but Bach does do joy. And 96 - > I think joy is pretty important. Actually, I think it's it. 97 - >

Speaker 3: Is It is because if you think about it, all 98 - > of us, whether we're aiming to go on vacation or 99 - > you know, kids are studying, getting that education, getting a 100 - > better life, what does that bring us? It brings us 101 - > joy at the end of the day, spending time with family, 102 - > spending holidays. So definitely, joy is a very very important emotion. 103 - >

Speaker 4: Yeah, I do like it. 104 - >

Speaker 3: Although I got to say that I am partial to 105 - > Mozart and Beethoven. 106 - >

Speaker 4: That's okay, that's yes, We're not going to fall out 107 - > on that one. Yeah, I mean, you asked about you 108 - > know people who have had a big influence. Okay, so 109 - > there's a musician, so Daniel Barrenboim, who is now in 110 - > his eighties, so almost retired, but he has been an 111 - > absolute giant in the world of music. 112 - >

Speaker 3: And that's the beauty of conversations. Now you mentioned about 113 - > Bach and Joy, I'm going to look at his music, 114 - > listen to it, and experience it in a completely different way. 115 - > And that's the beauty that we bring out as we 116 - > go and talk about different things. Sure, yes, yes, So 117 - > tell us how did you get into music and how 118 - > did music become your life. 119 - >

Speaker 4: Well, I was a chorister's little boy, just by chance. 120 - > I went to a school. So I wasn't a chorister 121 - > in a cathedral, but I was a chorus at school. 122 - > We had a chapel. I went to a Posh school 123 - > and so we had a chapel, and therefore I did 124 - > from a young age. I did services every day, even 125 - > on Saturdays and Sundays. So I just grew up in 126 - > that tradition. And for me it wasn't the It wasn't. 127 - > Of course, it's religious, but that wasn't what did it 128 - > for me at all. I mean, yes, I've heard lots 129 - > of sermons, I've heard lots of Bible readings, but it 130 - > wasn't the words that got me, but the music absolutely did. 131 - > So I had a very good grounding in that in 132 - > that you learn how to sit, read and you learn 133 - > how to perform at a very high level. And I 134 - > was also lucky that I lived near Liverpool, and when 135 - > I was twelve and thirteen the two big concerts that 136 - > the Liverpool Philharmonic gave which required as well as an 137 - > orchestra and a choir, it required a children's choir, and 138 - > so one of them, when I was thirteen, there was 139 - > a new cathedral opened in Liverpool. Now cathedrals aren't built 140 - > and open very often, and they put this big piece 141 - > on by Ballio's a setting of his today and it 142 - > was so it needs huge forces and so we were 143 - > involved in that. It was also televised, so for me 144 - > as a thirteen year old, I think I was more 145 - > interested in watching all these TV cameras sort of whirring 146 - > around the cathedral. But what that really introduced me to 147 - > was working at a professional level. I wasn't being paid 148 - > for it, so I'm not professional in the strict sense, 149 - > but I was. I at a very early age twelve 150 - > and thirteen to know what a professional standard is when 151 - > you're working with a professional orchestra and a professional conductor. 152 - > And once you've learned that, you never go back. So 153 - > you I mean simple things like you go to a 154 - > rehearsal and you don't talk, you don't chatter, And it's 155 - > surprising when you go to an amateur choir. Part of 156 - > it is social, so they like to have a bit 157 - > of a natter, you know while the other people are singing. Well, 158 - > you just don't do that, and I never do and 159 - > that can be, of course frustrating because or it can 160 - > also make me seem anti social. But no, I just 161 - > like to go for the high standards. So that I 162 - > was very fortunate in that, and then I've just sung 163 - > in choirs ever since, and again at a high standard. 164 - > I sang with the Academy of Saint Martin and the 165 - > Fields for twenty years and we went all over the 166 - > world and all over Europe. So I've been extremely fortunate 167 - > to experience this. 168 - >

Speaker 3: And what leadership lessons have you brought back from those journeys? 169 - >

Speaker 4: Gosh, well, there are so many things that I think 170 - > we can learn from the and it's not just leaders 171 - > as well. I mean you didn't say that, but if 172 - > you did say we and that's an important thing. It's 173 - > not just leaders because when we think of leaders we 174 - > tend to think of people in the military or the 175 - > big business or politics. Well, yeah, they could learn, but 176 - > it's all of us that can learn from the world 177 - > of music because we're all we all are leaders in 178 - > a way, we all have access to leadership. And that's 179 - > one of the things I always like to get across 180 - > that leaders and leadership are different, different concepts, and we 181 - > all whether it's in our work but also in our communities. 182 - > We can show leadership. In our families. We can show leadership. 183 - > You know, as parents, what sort of leadership do we 184 - > show to our children? As a partner, what do I 185 - > What leadership do I show to my to my partner 186 - > or my spouse, and vice versa. So this is terribly important. 187 - > So some of the lessons, I suppose the most obvious 188 - > one is listening. I mean, that's what musicians do. That 189 - > is the thing that separates them from from other people. 190 - > That's what that's the skill that they've really developed, just 191 - > like artists have developed a way of seeing. I remember, 192 - > my mother was an art teacher. And I remember her 193 - > when I was little. She was painting something and she 194 - > some flowers and just she said, she pointed to some 195 - > leaves in this still life that, you know, a bunch 196 - > of flowers that she had said, what colors that? Well, 197 - > obviously they were leaves, so I said, well, they're green, 198 - > and then she pointed out, well, they're almost every color 199 - > but green. You know, there are purples, there are oranges, 200 - > there are yellows, there are reds in that if you 201 - > really learn to see. And that's what artists can do. 202 - > Like now. Likewise, musicians what they can do is here 203 - > and listen, not just here, but really listen. And that's 204 - > listening to you know, if I'm singing in the cathedral, 205 - > of course I'm listening to the people on either side, 206 - > So you know, am I blending with them? Because we 207 - > have to blend together? But also I'm listening to myself. 208 - > You know, am I really doing what I think I'm doing? 209 - > I mean, I think I'm singing in tune. I think 210 - > that note is in tune, but is it really? Is 211 - > it a bit flat? Is it a bit sharp? I 212 - > think it was on time, but was it I a 213 - > bit late? A bit early? So you're always ruthlessly listening 214 - > to yourself and looking at yourself. And that's a thing 215 - > which we all have to do. I mean, we have 216 - > to do it in work. Is you know, really check 217 - > am I am? 218 - >

Speaker 3: I really? 219 - >

Speaker 4: What is going on here? But likewise we should do 220 - > it with our family. You know, how about if we 221 - > if we sat around the kitchen table and said, this 222 - > is what I think's going on. This is how I 223 - > think I've behaved. But hey, kids, what do you think 224 - > you know? Tell me be honest. Now of course I 225 - > can then go back to them, of course and say, well, 226 - > this is how you think you behaved, this is how 227 - > I see it. But it's a Then we create a dialogue, 228 - > and that's hugely important, I think. Yeah, so that's just 229 - > one lesson from the world of music. 230 - >

Speaker 3: You're opening the doors for conversation, and when conversation and 231 - > dialogues happen, that's when the barriers break and you start 232 - > pulling trust, which is the foundation of any relationship. And 233 - > if you're talking about orchestra, I mean, I don't have 234 - > a musical note in my body. I can listen and 235 - > I can experience it. But that said, like you said, 236 - > everyone doing their piece at the right time, in the 237 - > right order, and just that right amount for everyone to 238 - > come together and sound beautiful. So so many times what. 239 - >

Speaker 4: Happening, And I'll I'll just correct you there, if you 240 - > if I may, and that you said, you know, a 241 - > few minutes ago you were talking about your love of 242 - > Beethoven and Mozart, and then you've just said, I'm not 243 - > I don't know a musical bone in your body, by 244 - > which I'm presuming you say you're meaning you don't play 245 - > the piano or you don't play an instruments or no, 246 - > that's one part of being a musician is being able 247 - > to play. But if we just play to nobody, that's 248 - > no good at all. You know, we need it's it's 249 - > it's a it's a coming together of performers and listeners. 250 - > You need the two together, just like you know on 251 - > a you can't have one without the other. Really, just 252 - > like you know, if you think of a magnet, you know, 253 - > a simple bar magnet, and you have a north pole 254 - > and a south pole, you can't have one without the other. 255 - > We if we perform, we need listeners. And just because 256 - > you don't play an instrument doesn't matter. You are musical. 257 - > So let's just. 258 - >

Speaker 3: I appreciate that. Yeah, And since we're talking about leaders, 259 - > leaders are like conductors, And if you're a conductor, you 260 - > want to bring in that whole team. You want to 261 - > have them in harmony. You want to have a cohesive team. 262 - > But so many times what happens is that, especially when 263 - > individual contributors are promoted to become leaders, then they have 264 - > not been trained to be leaders, and then they bring 265 - > in micromanagement. So how can leaders tend to stay away 266 - > from it and yet create that harmony in the team. 267 - >

Speaker 4: I think it comes down to how we listen and 268 - > how conductors listen. So they because micromanagement does have a place. 269 - > If you overplay it, of course, if that's all you do, 270 - > that's no good because you just it's just stultifying. We 271 - > go nowhere. But it is important. And I'll so one 272 - > of the things that conductors have to do is they listen. 273 - > And I'll say this, I'll explain this. They listen both vertically, 274 - > vertically and horizontally. I'll explain what I mean. So they 275 - > listen horizontally. Now, let's imagine you're playing a you're conducting 276 - > a Beethoven symphony, last forty five minutes. Now, in any 277 - > big peek in any piece of music, there is a climax, 278 - > the point that you're really moving towards. It's the absolute 279 - > center of the whole work. It might be very often 280 - > it's in the slow movement, in the third movement, where's 281 - > that's the emotional peak of the whole piece. There are 282 - > other peaks, of course, but that is the one, and 283 - > you have to have that in mind when you start off. 284 - > You start, you know, as you give your downbeat, you've 285 - > got that moment half an hour away, thirty five minutes 286 - > away that you're aiming towards. That Everything is judged in 287 - > relation to that, because you don't want to be too 288 - > loud too early, because otherwise that won't have the impact. 289 - > It's a bit like going on a walk, you know, 290 - > says say you're going to walk in the countryside, and 291 - > you're it's going to be up and down and up 292 - > and down, but you can see in the distance there 293 - > is that's the that's the highest hill that we're going 294 - > to have to go over. So it's a bit like that. 295 - > You're judging everything by that, So you have to do that. 296 - > You have to think horizontally as a conductor, so you 297 - > know where you're going, but at the same time. You 298 - > can't just do that. You have to think vertically, I 299 - > this moment, this chord that the orchestra is playing, is 300 - > it completely in tune, because it might not be because 301 - > they actually, the people in front, they're so busy playing 302 - > that they it's not always easy to hear. In fact, 303 - > very often it's not possible to hear you know, if 304 - > you're if the horns, if the French horns are playing 305 - > flat out, they cannot hear the cellos and vice versa. 306 - > So you've the only person that can is the conductor. 307 - > Because the conductor standing in front has got this helicopter 308 - > view if you can hear everything in more of a balance, 309 - > So you have to you're thinking vertically as they're playing 310 - > that is it exactly together? Is it in tune? Is 311 - > it balanced? Because maybe I need a bit more cello here, 312 - > Maybe the horns are a bit loud. They're in tune, 313 - > but they're a bit loud, so I need constantly you're 314 - > shuffling it around. Now, if you just do that, we 315 - > go nowhere. But you have to do both. So that 316 - > and that's really micro management of just saying yeah, you're 317 - > pointing to them, they need to be brought up they 318 - > need to be quiet and down. Now. It's just the 319 - > same of course in the workplace. You know, if you're 320 - > the CEO, you have to be thinking, Okay, what's going 321 - > to happen in you know, Q three, Q four, next 322 - > year to twenty twenty seven, and how are we moving forward? 323 - > What's the twelve month plan? What are the milestones en route? 324 - > But if we just do that, then the whole thing 325 - > can can fall apart. So you have to also while 326 - > you're doing that, think okay, this week, what's going on here? 327 - > And you have to hear from the different divisions and 328 - > are we really doing what we think we do so 329 - > and that comes very much down to micro management. So 330 - > you have to balance the two, I think, and you 331 - > can't have one without the other again like the like the. 332 - >

Speaker 3: Magnet, Yeah definitely, And what I'm hearing is that you 333 - > want to you talked about like hearing cello and different 334 - > music instruments. So similarly, whether you're leader, and like you mentioned, 335 - > can anybody can be a leader? It's not just about 336 - > the title. It is about listening to people who maybe 337 - > they could be your peers or they could be your 338 - > reports and what is that every person thinking where they're 339 - > at and are you in tune with them because that listening, 340 - > that deep listening, is what's going to let you know 341 - > where to manage those expectations where you are enabling and 342 - > empowering your team members to grow to have that agency 343 - > for themselves. Because if you think about it, in orchestra, 344 - > you're bringing in the right people and also you're training them. 345 - > There are so many practices. Just like sports, there is 346 - > that repetition, So how are you bringing together that people 347 - > are playing in harmony? So this definitely applies to leadership. Now, 348 - > I'm curious what are some of your experiences as you 349 - > worked with Google, British Airways, McDonald's, companies like that. What 350 - > are some of the experiences that you took forward in 351 - > your life. 352 - >

Speaker 4: With McDonald's. I was lucky to run some courses over 353 - > in Chicago. That's where their headquarters is, on the South 354 - > side of Chicago, and they have a huge campus there, 355 - > including one of their main training facilities, which is known 356 - > as the Hamburger University. And it's so easy or I've 357 - > I should back up there. I was yeah a bit thinking, well, McDonald's, 358 - > you know, it's about Hamburgers. Really, is this going to 359 - > be a great place? And I will. I mean I've 360 - > been doing this which type of work now for a 361 - > long time, coming up to thirty years. And the people 362 - > a McDonald's were the proudest people that I've ever come 363 - > across ever. They were so proud of where they worked justifiably. 364 - > I mean, it's a hell of an organization. You know, 365 - > whatever we think, it's an amazing organization. I mean it's 366 - > a it's a glorious campus for a start, and it's 367 - > there are lakes and fountains and all of that. It's 368 - > but they they purposely wanted I was there for four 369 - > days and they wanted to take me round. They took 370 - > me around to give me a tour to see how 371 - > this this place works, and and it's hugely impressive. And 372 - > as we often say about McDonald's, you know, when you 373 - > when you go into into McDonald's, whether it's in you know, 374 - > San Francisco or Shrewsbury which is where I live, it 375 - > over here, or or anywhere else, uh huh, to have 376 - > that level of consistency, which is which is terribly important 377 - > to any organization. I mean it's important with a symphony orchestra, 378 - > you know, when you go to them, you don't want 379 - > to you don't want to find out that, oh, tonight 380 - > they're having an off night. No, no, I've I've paid 381 - > one hundred dollars for this. I don't want you to 382 - > have an off night. I want it to be outstanding, 383 - > and they do now. Likewise that when you go into 384 - > McDonald's you know what you're going to get exactly. It 385 - > never fails. And that and also when you think the 386 - > people that are there, many of them are in their 387 - > second language. These are not well educated people. Very often, 388 - > very often they're teenagers. As somebody once said, these are 389 - > kids that at home you find it hard to get 390 - > them to clean their bedroom, to make their bed. And 391 - > yet McDonald's can take these young people and make them 392 - > into a team, a high performing team, and you think, wow, 393 - > that is you've you've got some systems in place here. 394 - > This is very impressive in a way that I never 395 - > imagined it would be. So that's that's the most obvious one. 396 - >

Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, consistency is the key. And what you mentioned 397 - > was that people were proud. They are proud to be 398 - > at McDonald's. And it's about biling those systems. So many 399 - > times we don't talk about systemic thinking. People think like, oh, 400 - > teams teams is definitely dealing with people, but at the 401 - > same time creating systems and culture that will hold the 402 - > team succeed. So, moving a little bit away from the 403 - > organizational bead, what are some of the ways, like, you know, 404 - > some of your special sauce that you use to understand 405 - > your clients and colleagues. What would you share with her audience. 406 - >

Speaker 4: Oh, well, because I'm a business psychologist, so I'm interested 407 - > in what makes people tick. I think I'm really interested 408 - > in that because well, I've said that for many years. 409 - > I'm interested in people. Well, I am interested in people, 410 - > but I'm also interested in myself because a few years ago, 411 - > six years ago, I had a very late diagnosis of 412 - > having aspergers, of being on the artistic spectrum, and which 413 - > was we don't nest, we don't need to talk about it. 414 - > But it was. It was a fabulous day. It was 415 - > I felt so liberating. So but that was, yeah, that 416 - > was it was. It was a very important day for me. 417 - > And so I'm interested in other people, but to understand myself. 418 - > And one of the tools I use and have used 419 - > for thirty years now are personality profiles where people before 420 - > a workshop, but before they come along, they fill in 421 - > the questionnaire and I create a personality profile for them, 422 - > and they're in some ways they're very simple documents. I mean, 423 - > they can be twenty odd pages long, but then in 424 - > some ways they're quite simple. But they but the point 425 - > is it's to help us understand be able to have 426 - > a conversation. You mentioned conversation a few minutes ago, and 427 - > that is that is the key to everything's it's the 428 - > key to building trust. It's the key to connecting with 429 - > other people. And we're social creatures, so we need to connect. 430 - > Most of us are not hermits. We like to be 431 - > with other people, but we find them irritating or difficult 432 - > to understand that. 433 - >

Speaker 3: What I'm going to share is, like, you know, when 434 - > we talk about conversation, Yeah, yes, yes, conversations with everyone, 435 - > and some conversations can be very hard. Yeah. 436 - >

Speaker 4: Well, and we all say, oh, we should value the 437 - > difference as well. Yeah, as long as yes, but as 438 - > long as you think like I do, it's fine. That's 439 - > you know. We it's a bit of a challenge if 440 - > people think really differently from us, But the best way 441 - > is to talk to them. And this these personality profiles, 442 - > that's what it's there to do. It's to help conversation. 443 - >

Speaker 3: So it helps us. 444 - >

Speaker 4: It helps us look at ourselves, our strengths and our weaknesses. 445 - > And you might think that most people know what their 446 - > strengths and weaknesses are. Well, I would suggest, as somebody 447 - > who's been doing this for a very long time said 448 - > thirty years, most people don't. Most people do not know 449 - > what their strengths are. I mean, if they, if you know, 450 - > say they so my son works at Deloitte over in Houston. 451 - > Now he might say, well, you know, so, what's one 452 - > of your strengths. Well, I know a lot about tax. Well, yes, 453 - > you do know. He does know a lot about tax. 454 - > That's not one of his strengths at all. I mean, 455 - > come on, we're talking about other things. There are things 456 - > which are far more important than knowing that, than the 457 - > nuts and bolts of what we do. And that's what 458 - > I try and help people do. That's why when I 459 - > work with a team, I want everyone by you know, 460 - > by the end of the session or the next few weeks, 461 - > to really know what is it that they bring to 462 - > that team. Why is it essential that they are there? 463 - > What is what is it that they do that no 464 - > one else in the team can do? Because there are 465 - > things and it's not saying that they're superman or superwoman, 466 - > but there are things that they do where other people think, 467 - > you know, well, you know with you wow. There will 468 - > be people who think, I just don't know how Diviya 469 - > does it. It's amazing, it's quite extraordinary. It could be 470 - > about how you listen, or how you make decisions, or 471 - > how the detail you bring to things. It could be 472 - > all sorts of things, but there'll be things that you 473 - > bring that nobody else does, and that's what we want 474 - > to focus on. You know, there's you know, in a 475 - > football team, there's no point having eleven goalkeepers or eleven strikers. 476 - > You've got to you've got to have a mix. And 477 - > it's the same in any a team at work, you know, 478 - > same as an orchestra. We don't we don't want just 479 - > you know, forty violins. We want to have that mix. 480 - > So yeah, that's that's one of the I think that's 481 - > pretty important. 482 - >

Speaker 3: Yea. And that definitely makes sense because let's say, and 483 - > of course I'm a fan of personality types too. There's 484 - > so many out there, and I've I've developed one of 485 - > the types myself, and like you know, one of the 486 - > types is like executor. So if somebody is an executor, 487 - > they're so focused on results and getting things done, and 488 - > then they miss out on some of the things and 489 - > there could be empets. They're the want of on the 490 - > can actions and they want to build that relationship. So 491 - > when you're doing the project and when you bring each 492 - > one of the different types or as you're saying, like 493 - > you know where they have strengths, so it becomes like 494 - > that puzzle pieces and together we can create that beautiful 495 - > puzzle or like beautiful music as you're mentioning, And that's 496 - > a really powerful way to kind of go. So, now, 497 - > k we have brought people, you know, we have focused 498 - > on their strengths. What has been your experience when there 499 - > are differences? What are some of the good ways to 500 - > resolve those? 501 - >

Speaker 4: Well, it's what we've just been talking about. Is listening 502 - > really listening to people talking, you know, is conversation and 503 - > it's and it's really listening and that's hard. So in 504 - > the English language, we have a we make the distinction 505 - > between hearing and listening. I don't think that happens in 506 - > every language. I'm not a linguist, so I'm not sure 507 - > about that, but I think we're we're lucky in English 508 - > that we have listening, but it's hard because and an 509 - > awful lot of people don't do it. 510 - >

Speaker 3: You know, they. 511 - >

Speaker 4: You know, when they're when they're not talking in a conversation, 512 - > they're really waiting for the next pause when they can 513 - > say what the next thing they want to say. They're 514 - > not really listening to you. But but we really need 515 - > to try and see the world from somebody else's perspective. 516 - > But it's yeah, but it is difficult, and and we 517 - > don't get much training at it either. I mean, it's 518 - > it's quite easy to find, and people go on courses 519 - > for public speaking or presentation skills. I don't know of 520 - > anyone that's been on a listening course. I don't know 521 - > if they exist. Maybe I should start one, that would 522 - > be uh yeah, that would be quite a good idea 523 - > perhaps where you get people who are really listening. I 524 - > mean one of the I mean a simple exercise that 525 - > I sometimes start workshops with. 526 - >

Speaker 3: Is that. 527 - >

Speaker 4: Especially if well that doesn't yeah, especially if I suppose 528 - > if they're people that don't know each other, but it 529 - > doesn't really matter. Is that okay, this is as soon 530 - > as you've said a lot to them, is okay, Well 531 - > just go off in pairs and introduce yourself to your 532 - > partner and just talk about, you know, what's brought you here, 533 - > what you're a bit about your career, why you're here, 534 - > that's okay, and then and then you know, you swap 535 - > over and then you come back and then we're going 536 - > to share it with the group. Except if it was 537 - > you and me, I have to introduce you and you 538 - > have to introduce me, so that you really have to 539 - > listen to what I'm saying and I really have to 540 - > listen to you now, and that's usually done. That can 541 - > be done at ten past nine in the morning. And 542 - > it suddenly makes people realize, oh, oh yeah, what what 543 - > was it that Diva said? Not really sure? And it's 544 - > and I try to say, don't take notes, you've just 545 - > we are you talking for a few minutes. Is just 546 - > try and remember, really listen to what she's saying. And 547 - > it's it's quit a wake up call to people. I 548 - > think too that we don't listen as well as we could. 549 - > But like anything, we can get better at it. Of 550 - > course we can. And the and the rewards are enormous. 551 - >

Speaker 3: Absolutely, because the connection goes deeper and deeper than you're listening, 552 - > whether it is active listening or reflective listening, you know, 553 - > listening and then ensuring that you're understanding the other person. 554 - > So we have had some great conversation today, Charles. How 555 - > can people connect with you and share with us you 556 - > want to share about yourself? 557 - >

Speaker 4: Well, okay, there's a website Charlesgrimes dot com. And I yeah, 558 - > I just love I love doing one to one work 559 - > to get the real depth and workshops are lovely and 560 - > I do like the energy that you get and I 561 - > like seeing people the light bulbs that go off for people, 562 - > that go on for people, I should say, so that's 563 - > always very rewarding. But I also like one to one 564 - > because it's the depth that you can get to. That's 565 - > one of the things that I love is I don't 566 - > I don't do superficiality very well. I don't do small 567 - > talk very well. You know, if you're if we have 568 - > a conversation, I mean I have. I have a colleague 569 - > who says, you know, he loves talking. You know, sometimes 570 - > we're away on workshops together and overnight and he says, 571 - > I love our conversations, Charles, but I can only take 572 - > one night off them because of the intensity. Because I said, 573 - > I don't do superficial. You know, if you, if I 574 - > talk to you, we'll get to some depth. Because that's 575 - > the point. 576 - >

Speaker 3: I think, well, and the differences lies to depth. 577 - >

Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so of course, yes, yes. 578 - >

Speaker 3: Because think about it, how boring it would be if 579 - > all of us were just the. 580 - >

Speaker 4: Same, be ridiculous. Of course, yes, exactly, yes, and it's yeah. 581 - > And so if we were having a conversation, if you 582 - > and I were having a conversation about music, and I've 583 - > just I said earlier on I love Bark and you said, oh, 584 - > I love Bach too, then what I mean, what do 585 - > we say after that? But if you say, well, yeah 586 - > I like Bach, but I really love Beethoven and Mozart, 587 - > well okay, now we can start talking about that, and 588 - > it's it just deepens everything, and it would be very 589 - > and you might say, frankly, I don't do any of them, 590 - > but I do love you know, Stephen Somedheim in musicals, 591 - > or I love you know, the Beatles. I don't care 592 - > what you like. It's let's have a conversation about it. Yeah, 593 - > it's the depth. What does music mean to you? Or 594 - > what does anything mean to you? What does family mean 595 - > to you? Yes? 596 - >

Speaker 3: Yeah, so esbare coming to the end of our show. 597 - > Do you want to say anything about Richard Freeman and 598 - > then you talk about it. 599 - >

Speaker 4: Oh, Richard Feynman, Yes, well he is. For those people 600 - > who don't aren't aware of him, he is, they will. 601 - > He's a physicist. He's certainly you will certainly know of Einstein, obviously, 602 - > but and some people have said that Richard Feynman is 603 - > that is to the same as ein Einstein is in 604 - > the first part of the century, last century, and Richard 605 - > Feinnman is the equivalent of Einstein in the second half 606 - > of the century. He's one of the very few physicists 607 - > that can be talked about in the same breath. An 608 - > absolute giant, but not just a brilliant physicist and a mathematician, 609 - > but a communicator. That is the thing that he brought. 610 - > He is an outstanding, one of the the great, outstanding 611 - > communicators of anything. He could take the most complex stuff 612 - > and convey it to people. And his what he was 613 - > interested in is the biggest idea of all, which is 614 - > the universe, the cosmos, is what is things like what 615 - > is light? What is time? These amazing things that we 616 - > just talk about but don't understand. And he spent his 617 - > life looking at them, and he is just an absolute giant. 618 - > And I he did it with lots of fun and 619 - > joy as well. And so that's one of the things 620 - > goes back to Bath, the joy that he had in life. 621 - > He also one of his things was he eventually got 622 - > the Nobel Prize in nineteen sixty six I think it was. 623 - > And of course, yeah, he went over to Denmark and 624 - > got the prize and presumably got lots of money for 625 - > us as well, But he was very clear that that 626 - > wasn't the prize for him. I mean it was, it 627 - > was okay, but it was the real prize for him 628 - > was firstly discovering stuff and then the fact that what 629 - > the things he discovered other people used, his colleagues used 630 - > and built on his work. That for him was the prize, 631 - > not the as he said, he can't he couldn't stand uh. Well, 632 - > he always referred to epaulet's you know, the things on 633 - > your shoulders, people who have stripes, you know, to show 634 - > their status. He couldn't bear that. And I'm pretty much 635 - > like that. Yeah, sure, have all your achievements, but just 636 - > don't don't show off about it. He was not a 637 - > show off at all, and I find found him so 638 - > refreshing and yeah, a giant in the world of physics. 639 - >

Speaker 3: And as they say, right Richard Feinman being one of 640 - > the people, we say that we stand on the shoulders 641 - > of giants. So thank you for joining us, Charles. It 642 - > was a pleasure and I'm sure our listeners will check 643 - > out your website Charlesgrimes dot com. Reach out to Charles 644 - > and connect with him, and thank you for joining us. 645 - > And thank you wonderful audience for being part of our show. 646 - > Reach out to us like you always do. Let us 647 - > know how we can serve and support you to live 648 - > the best life you can. Thank you bring that joy 649 - > in and thank you on attack Genius. 650 - >

Speaker 2: Thank you for being part of Beyond Confidence. With your 651 - > host d V Park, we hope you have learned more 652 - > about how to start living the life you want. Each 653 - > week on Beyond Confidence, you hear stories of real people 654 - > who've experienced growth by overcoming their feet and building meaningful relationships. 655 - > During Beyond Confidence, Vpark shares what happened to her when 656 - > she stepped out of her comfort zone to work directly 657 - > with people across the globe. She not only coaches people 658 - > how to form hard connections, but also transform relationships to 659 - > mutually beneficial partnerships as they strive to live the life 660 - > they want. If you are ready to live the life 661 - > you want and leverage your strengths, learn more at www 662 - > dot dwpark dot com and you can connect with dvat 663 - > contact at dvpark dot com. We look forward to you 664 - > joining us next week