Ep 138 Sabrina Malter: Continuously Learning

Speaker A: Continuous improvement comes in lots of different, uh, flavors and styles. I'm Bella Engelbach and I'm inviting you to journey with me to the Edges of Lean. Episode 138, Sabrina Malte, continuously Learning. Sabrina Malta. Welcome to the Edges of Lean.

Speaker B: Thank you very much, um, thank you very much Bella for having me today.

Speaker A: I'm really pleased to have you here today and I know you have been ah, one of the longtime listeners to the show and I appreciate that so much. And for those of you who are listening, I have been asking Sabrina for a couple of years to come on the show and share some of her knowledge with us. And I'm just very, very pleased that you're here today. Um, so Sabrina, would you mind introducing yourself to everybody?

Speaker B: Thank you very much. Yes, I love to. I'm m. Sabrina. I am um, um, management consulting with a focus on learning, learning organization and learning culture and also uh, focus on Lean. And yeah, I have been um, listening to this podcast at least for I would say three years, perhaps even more. I don't know exactly. Um, I came to know Bella through um, our common network, the Women in Lean. Um, and um, when I learned about her podcast I started to listen to it and I think I heard at least um, every second, um, um, episode. I tried to misnow no episode at all, but I wouldn't say I listened to all. Perhaps that wouldn't be correct. And I love it very much. I'm m very happy and honored to be here today.

Speaker A: Sabrina, you're a management consultant. Now tell us a little bit about your career. How did you get started and how did you learn about Lean?

Speaker B: Yes, um, I have been working for 25 years in the pharmaceutical industry. Um, worked there in the um, um department in a testing, um, quality testing department. And then I changed um, to the people and culture, um, ah, unit and then again back to the production. Um, and I started really in this technical field and then I learned about some Lean, say tools. I also only on le. Yeah, it wasn't really my focus at this time. I heard about um, this thing called Lean and for me it was only connected to some tools and really only to producing waste. That was everything, um, that I learned so far. And then when I moved to um, the people and culture department and I did some cross functional um, projects at this time. Um, and then I got into people development and then it um, came again, uh, that I heard about Lean and I thought oh, that's something totally different or much, much more. Um, it's not really a set of Tools. Um, it's really something that would be interesting to explore from this perspective of um, learning and developing and creating a learning culture. What was really a topic that was also then, also back then was really important to me and I thought that there's so much potential at this time for our then organization to ignite this um, spirit and um, ignite this, this love for learning and also for continuous improvement. But really with this focus on learning and growing and doing something or getting somewhere at a better place for your team, for your department and also growing for yourself as a person or as a leader. And then uh, that was um, at least five years later than I, the first time about Lean, um, that I thought oh that's much more and it's so interesting and there are so many things and I didn't know too much at this time that I learned for example about what I love now very much. KATA coaching was again say five years later when I was back in production and then we had a wonderful colleague there, um, who um, knew about KATA coaching. I didn't. And we had in this department what management called our senior top management Lean Transformation. And I was in maternity leave at this time. Um, and I uh, was a little bit hungry for information what's going on at work. And so I always checked my, it wasn't at the end of a longer time maternity leave. And then I was checking my uh, emails and um, had some sought some presentations, some slide decks and I thought oh, that's again about Lean. And I have heard two times back in my career from a different perspective and I was somewhat excited. What would our uh, um, production department. Yes. Get out of this? And then I came back and one of the first days, first week, um, I took part in a big, big um town hall meeting with um, all or most of our people, leaders from team lead upwards. Everyone was there and, and it was really, it was a little bit funny in hindsight. It was really this classical um, management, top management, um, at the front speaking to everyone and really doing a slide back presentation why we should be changing and why we need a transformation. And uh, people were asking um, at the end we had a question and answer session and people were asking yes, that sounds really interesting what you just showed us about lean and lean leadership. It was really some basic information there on the slides. But how could I as a team lead, someone was asking how could I bring that into practice? Into practice. What could I really do um, now when I want to move in this direction? And I thought about that and thought it Was such a, such a good question um because it was only shiny slides and nothing that you could really grasp. And now um, start doing um and I thought a little bit about that and then I um told my leadership team because I was in such a supporting role so it was easy to. I had good access to them and I said to them I think the best way would be to help people leaders to move into a more of a coaching direction really to do more coaching. And um, at this time I hadn't heard about Qatar um and I just had my leadership coaching a normal um coaching techniques um that I learned about um some years ago in my head. And I did um a short training with the leadership team um which was really basically about asking open questions, listening um, really to understand and then really asking this what and how questions really the basics. And um. I had um perhaps 12 people in the room and we had teams of three and it didn't fit. Perhaps it was 11. Sorry it was 11. Um from the leadership team and myself it was 12. And so I had to, had to get into one of the groups so that we have three people because one should be the coach, um and asking questions, open ended questions, not giving advice. The other one should um be the coachee and um, tell about something that you wanted to learn and one should observe and afterwards tell them or did you really um only ask open ended questions for example. And so I really.

Speaker A: It's really hard to do it Sabrina. It's very hard for someone who hasn't practiced it to do it. Right.

Speaker B: Definitely. And so I was in this group of three and this was one colleague, the one colleague who learned about KATA before and he asked me this typical KATA questions. For example the what was the powerful question in this moment? Um what is your next step in order to bring this whole thing forward. And then when I went back um to um do the session, to um work on the session uh and I said and now our next step. And I just thought about that because of this great question. Our next step is that all of you team up for the next six weeks and practice and really do this um, yeah peer coaching um as a practice and then we move on from this step. And that was such a success because they um um realized that it's hard really to listen and to ask only these open ended questions and don't get into um, yeah counseling. And then I got there. Okay. After the six week we had another meeting to do this um as a leadership development for our people leaders. And that was really only because this because of this great Kata question. What's your next step? That was so powerful. And then I learned about kata and I mixed it. I didn't understand it at this time perfectly, um, but I saw that there's much potential and I always told everyone about, about this story. So I got the people, they knew, our leadership team and I told them I had this great question and it helped me and that was so powerful. And we, it was much, what we did was much about an introduction to growth mindset and then really this listening, really practicing really good listening. Um, and then um, asking these open ended questions and when you, um, because everyone comes, um, when you start, everyone and even if you don't start, um, comes into counseling from time to time and then, and sometimes that perhaps. Okay, but if you really want to, want to um, ask coaching questions and then I just said to the people, it's no problem. To the participants you could just say, oh, sorry, now I slipped into counseling. Um, let me just ask you about a question that's more helpful and then you could go back and just ask this question. It's no problem at all. At least if you do that. In this peer coaching teams, everyone attended the training. Everyone was aware that your coach was also just in the beginning of learning to coach. And so it was really no problem to do that. It would have been perhaps been awkward if um, it had been in another situation and she said, oh, I'm um, and coaching you or perhaps not talking about that at all and working with your, with your team and then it would perhaps seem awkward. But in this, with this peer coaching group and everyone was learning to coach was no problem at all. Yes. And so I got into Qatar and I got my love of um, yeah to coaching because it wasn't really into coaching before so much.

Speaker A: And yeah, so you were, you were. That is a, uh, that is a wonderful story though that you got people into coaching. You yourself were not an experienced coach at the time. So you must have been learning right along with all of the people that you were working with with the leadership team.

Speaker B: Sorry, Sorry. Now I'm back. Um, could, um, you repeat your question please?

Speaker A: Yes, of course, of course. So, so I was saying I really like this, this story because it is, it's, I think it's sometimes typical of what happens when we're just a little bit out in front of the people that we're trying to help. Right? Just uh, and in your case just a step or two out in front. And so as everybody's learning to coach, you're also learning something about coaching and you are doing it in an environment. Sounds that you like you created an environment that was a good environment to make mistakes and it was, it was okay to do things that were not quite right. Like, like perhaps like slipping into as you say counseling as opposed to asking those open ended questions.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: So as you were doing that, how did that feel? Was it, was it exciting? Was it terrifying?

Speaker B: No, it was totally exciting. I really loved it so much. Um, and because I could apply what I've learned, because I was only one or two, I think only one step before them, I could apply immediately what I have learned um to what I was teaching in the class or to my own coaching. I could apply it directly. And so yeah that was. I really love that the spirit. And I also love that the people were so excited um as well because they say oh yes, that's so helpful. And they also love um the benefit, uh extra benefit I would say from networking because I mixed the teams. There's um two or three um um person um in a team for, for peer coaching and then mixed them um so that everyone had someone on their level more or less, um uh but from totally different departments and they really loved that. And um, it was exciting. Uh, I know that people. And that's around 10 years ago now. Some people are still um meeting and uh, continuing coaching or to keep continuing supporting each other. So that really created something nice. Yeah.

Speaker A: Oh that's beautiful. That is really beautiful. Um, as that was going to be my next question then was well what happened afterwards? So you had these leadership team members that you would essentially training to coach. The next step then I think would be to have them go and work with their own teams. So how did that work out for them?

Speaker B: Um, I first I uh. What's the word? I didn't, I didn't um um press them at all. It was more the other way around. I said oh, perhaps it's better to um really get more experience in peer to peer coaching perhaps also with uh someone else so that you could um change the teams um, so that it comes more natural to you. Because I um saw from some um coaching sessions that I witnessed that it's um. When the coach wasn't um confident what they are doing that wasn't good for the relationship um um between um employee and leader. In this special case it could be something else uh um in another company culture. But if um the culture and what people are used to is very hierarchical then. And then the um people leader ah um is starting to coach that something perhaps a little bit new and perhaps for someone disturbing because it's not what you're used to. And if you in addition feel that your leader is unsure perhaps what they are doing, then it feels awkward and perhaps it's too awkward for some people. And so I said I think it would be helpful to practice it first, um, that you are somewhat confident what you are doing and that it comes somewhat natural to you. And you also always have to think, oh, I, I have to think for a good question. In this peer coaching it was totally okay, but in the normal conversation with the employees it was perhaps not ideal. And so I said uh, wait a little bit and rather practice and only then, um, use it with your employees. So it was more um, saying oh, not too fast, I wasn't pressing them at all. And what else? Um, I did and I think that was helpful. Um, I set up something that I uh, called um, coaching community of practice. And we had some meetings every few months and we could discuss um, what's important. I could give them some more, um, yeah, some more inspiration about coaching and of course about good coaching questions because it was still the same. I was also learning and I learned something new from a podcast for example, or from someone I was working with. And I thought oh yes, that would, some would be something for everyone else to know as well. And so I, yeah, directly set up something and um, teach directly what I have just learned. So that was.

Speaker A: And you were always so there. You were always one step ahead.

Speaker B: Yes, exactly. I was always only one step ahead.

Speaker A: Uh, only one step.

Speaker B: I gave everything directly to them. I think that's quite nice. And for me it was very helpful for my own learning because when you learn something perhaps you would say oh yes, it's interesting but you forget it. Um, or that could be helpful but you forget it. But when you say oh, that's interesting and it would be helpful for someone else and I teach it directly. I directly set up um, um, community of practice meeting and teach what I've just learned. And then the. Yeah, as we all know that the learning gets much deeper and you don't forget it. And um, so it was really helpful for me. Yeah,

Speaker A: so you quickly came to. It sounds like moving from the value of coaching and just asking those open ended questions which really do help people start to, to think more deeply about the problems they have in front of them and, and what they might do about those problems to really, you know, the, the that nugget that makes it so, so valuable which is that with every little experimental cycle, you learn something. And it's so easy for us. It is so easy for us to skip over the learning. Right. And want to move to what is my next step. Um, without think. Without really thinking through what the learning is. And for you, that's what I think has really become part of who Sabrina is and what Sabrina's message is to everybody else is about that learning. I'd love it if you could talk a little bit more about that and tell us about your book and, um, just go ahead and talk about learning.

Speaker B: Yes. Thank you. Yes, that's true, Bella. It's really something, this willingness to bring learning to everything I do. Um, that's something that came to me during my career and perhaps especially during this time, um, because I was so, so eager to learn something new. And was it so exciting. And so it's really bringing learning to life. Perhaps. Would be. Would it be in English? Um, that's it in German. I don't know. Can you see it? It's, um, learning and living. So it's learning and living. You can't, um, translate it directly. And it would be bringing learning to life and learning in everything you do. Something like that. This combination. It's two meanings. And to bring it to life and to do it in learn in everything you do. And, um, this title, my. My sister, um, inspired me to this title. She said, oh, wouldn't that be a nice title? And I said, yes, exactly. That. That is it. When I was watching, um, because that's really what. What I'm doing and what she, for example, sees that I try to bring this learning to everything I do and to the people I'm working with and also to the people I don't work with, like my children, for example, there's, um, going to school. They are 8 and 11 years old. And I tried, um, to hold back a little bit. They don't get too much, um, about growth mindset and about, um, what. What's in English, Um, that you're, um, confident that you could create something. This, this feeling you're confident you could reach your goal. Um, and about, um, why this. This is important and what could inspire you and what could. What could help you to be more in a learning mindset and not so much in a. In a closed mindset are really things that I thought more, more and more deeply. Um, that I have been teaching in my workshops for years, but I have thought about more and more deeply. Uh, when I was writing this book and try to explain it in depth, um, to the reader, um, what I, what I think or what. What I'm. What I mean when I talk about a learning mindset and this open and curious mindset, um, and not being closed and. Yeah, um, closed and yeah, um, fixed on being right and more this open to learn and be curious. And so I, um. Yeah, I love to bring this, um, to my customers, to my clients, to my colleagues, um, back then, um, um, and also to my children and just bring that to everything that I do.

Speaker A: Um, that's really terrific. And so what. Who is the book for? I mean, um, I just want to let people know that it is in German. So yes, it's. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people, A lot of people are not going to be able to read it. But you can always reach out to Sabrina and have a conversation with her yourself, um, if you don't speak German because she speaks very good English. Um, um. So tell us a little bit about who the book is for and some of the topics you cover.

Speaker B: Yes, the book is for people, um, leaders and for change agents. So for everyone, it's not a formal role, but for everyone who really wants to create change in their organization. Not only change towards a lean organization or learning organization, but. But to everyone, um, and also for everyone enthusiastic as I am about learning, um, it's not so much about lean. Um, for people who haven't heard about lean before, it will take a little bit, uh, until they read about this word, um, or they read about continuous improvement. Um, that's only in chapter three, I think, um, or four. Um, so it's really about learning and um, learning for yourself first. I always start, even if it's for leaders and change agents who want to create a learning mindset in their teams or learning organization. But I always start at the reader themselves and say, and it's so important to get into practice to do, um, and to try and to explore what you are reading for yourself before you start to say, teach it or influence other people in this direction. And so they, um. It's. I'm starting with um. Um. Um, say attitude of learning. Um. What does it mean? And I have this model, um. I work with a model, um, which explains, um, that not as a learning mindset because it seems, at least in German, I don't know, um, in German when you speak about mindset, um, people tend to put other people into boxes, say, okay, um, Bella has a learning mindset. But uh, Laura hasn't, for example. And um, she's in this old fixed mindset. That's something That I really heard. Oh, the people from the technical department, this old fixed hierarchical mindset. You can't work with them, but go to the IT department, they have this open, curious mindset. At first. It's not everyone in one department. Department is not the same. Um, perhaps that's clear to most people. But, um, what's also important, it's not something that someone has all the time. It's not a characteristic, but it's something. A state of mind. A curious state of mind that I am perhaps now in this moment when I have a lovely conversation with you and when someone, um, in the next situation, when someone, um, say, is treating me, um, like a, um, colleague, um, who told me when uh, her boss came and say, oh, you are not paid for thinking you are paid for doing. And then you get, um. Yeah. Uh, what's the word? Not open, but really closed.

Speaker A: And I think you get in a protective mode. Right. You're protecting yourself. Yeah.

Speaker B: Then the same person isn't in this learning and open and curious mode anymore. And it could really switch, um, and it could switch, um, really fast. And it also could switch from situation to situation. Someone, for example, is in a closed protective mode at work because the environment is like it is, for example. And when they go to being a, um, soccer trainer in the evening with the children, they are totally open. And also not only with the children, but when they were working, um, uh, with the other adults there and planning something. They're so creative and open and connecting and everything that you would love to. To see in an employee, but they are not because the environment is perhaps not really. Or their experiences from the past are perhaps, um. Yeah. Pushing them in a more protective, um, mindset or state of mind. And so I'm working with the state of mind and have um, different ideas how you could for yourself come in this open, curious state when you. When you recognize you are closed. Um, how you could help someone else, how you could help your team to move in this open state and have some. I always have some, um. Yeah. Inspirations, what you could do and what you could try. Some, um, things that you could really just do. And I always, always say, oh, that you just have to start, you know, enough to start now you don't. Perhaps it's the same that I did myself. I only realized that you really. You don't have to read the whole book and you don't have to study a whole master's program about learning, you know, a little bit. And now you could start and teach what you've learned. And live what you've learned. And then you move on and on and on. But you start directly to, um, work with yourself for yourself. Later, when it comes, for example, to reflection. When you were trained really to get used or to make reflection a habit and to make, um, reflection and learning. What you just said in the beginning. Some people are, it's perhaps stressed, quite normal that you forgot your learnings and you forgot to realize what you have learned and really to get into this practice, the learning cycle, um, to ask yourself, oh, what have I learned? And, um, to jot it down, to talk about it so that you don't forget it, um, and really get into this reflection and learning practice. I always have this, um. Yeah. Um, tell my reader, um, please try and get into this. And then when you get used to that, then you could work with your team and tell them why that is wonderful, why you should. They should do that as well. When you have your own experience, not only what you've written, uh, what you've read. Sorry, not only what, what you've read about it somewhere, um, but really your own experience, why reflection, for example, is something useful. And how could you implement it in team meetings and with your project, team, whatever. I. So different. Different, um, settings. Yeah. Then I have a chapter about, um, culture. About learning culture, where, for example, psychological safety, um, perhaps haven't heard about it yet or only have heard about it, but only as a buzzword and don't understand what they could do. What, what, what. What it means and what they could do about it in their role, um, to foster the psychological safety, really, with concrete examples and concrete ideas, what they could do, um, about trust and also about a culture where people, um, are more likely to help each other. You can't, you won't get everyone to help each other, but where people are more likely to help each other, to support each other and to learn together, to share their learnings, to share their mistakes, um, and to be. To be creative together, which also helps learning. Yeah.

Speaker A: Wow, that's really. That's really important. Yeah. Because. Because one of the things that I see sometimes is that. Is that particularly when people are in situations where they feel that they're overburdened. Right. That there's too much work. Um, and sometimes, you know, the work is. There is a lot of work and it's coming in in all kinds of crazy ways. But part of the problem is that. That people are not able to help each other. And it's not because they're not skilled to help each other. It's because they don't feel it's safe or it's the right thing to do to help each other and creating that environment where people are open to that can make a huge difference to the ability of a team to manage a workload.

Speaker B: Yes, yes. To manage that workload and really to learn together and to move to something where they um. Wouldn't thought that they could move to because they. They perhaps um. They haven't seen what they are capable of together because they didn't knew before what everyone knows their skills and how they could team up and work together. And I really try to encourage that and give some um tips ah for people leaders how they could foster this learning and supportive um. Culture. Yeah. Yes.

Speaker A: And then you said you go ahead

Speaker B: um uh next I have a chapter about KATA coaching because um. In the meanwhile I have. Four years ago I have joined the ktg, the Katagoupics and so I have learned much more about KATA now and I've. And I also myself I'm always very curious about who um. Yes. Um who developed an approach and why did they um. Um develop this approach and what was that where that. What were the questions that triggered the research and so on. Um. That's really something that's always very interesting for me and I didn't want to. I really wanted to write a practical guide and not um research research summary. Um but I thought for people who are ah perhaps as I am very interested why the researchers went into this direction. I also with every concept also with psychological safety and um with kata and with reflection I um Introduce um who worked on that and why they they asked their say research question or why they had a question and why they get into this and um introduce the people a little bit because I think that it's interesting and also have much book notes much much footnotes for uh people who want to read more. And so I have this um chapter on KATA and on uh micros research um and also a much um. Yeah what what Chema developed, what Chema Chance developed um regarding kata. And then I have another chapter on change how you could apply all what you have learned so far about. About um the learning cycle, about learning culture, learning attitude when it comes to managing or leading change in an organization and how um. What what why it's helpful the put the people in the center of your. Of your thinking and help them really to learn new habits for example to learn what they could change and how they could change and get into that and design new habits that they get easy um to change, uh, or that they get easy to apply and yeah. So really, um. Change as a. Learning. As a. From a learning perspective. I think that's really interesting and so helpful because you make change much easier. So when. When you look at. For the people and also more likely to be successful when you look, um. How could you make it easier and how could you apply knowledge about learning in your design for your change? And then I also only have. That's the say the input part. And then I have um, another book part with five examples from different companies who um, supported or who promote um, learning in totally different ways so that the reader has some inspiration from totally different fields. How you could. As an example, um. And it's not complete at all. Only five examples from companies, um, who um. Promote learning in very different ways. And that's it.

Speaker A: It sounds amazing. It sounds. It sounds like so much fun and I wish I could read it but my German is limited to dinner menus so unfortunately that it won't work for me. Um. So Sabrina, what did you learn when you were writing the book? What were some of your big learnings about writing?

Speaker B: Yes, I learned um, something about the.

Speaker A: Really.

Speaker B: The concepts I was writing about. But that wasn't my deepest learning. That was perhaps. It's not really, um. It's perhaps something you would expect when you really do more research and you learn more about your. The topics that are really. That you are fascinated about. And that's. That's um. Yeah, what I expected. I didn't think so much about what I was learning about myself and about um. When I started out I didn't realize how much I had to learn about writing because when I had my first draft, I didn't like it at my first. Not for the whole book, my first chapter, uh, draft of a chapter. And I didn't like it at all. And I thought, oh, no one would like to read that. And my picture, what m. My. My image was really someone, um. My dream. Someone the reader who would really um. Be happy to take the book on say Sunday afternoon and sit um, in the garden or on the sofa and with this, um, expectation, um, to enjoy um, what they will read for the next say half an hour or whatever. Um, and I wasn't there at all. And I wouldn't say that it's perfect now, but I think it's much, much better. And I really focus so much on um, writing in a way that it's enjoyable for the reader because I thought, oh, when no one is reading it, um, then I shouldn't have um, written in the first place and uh, the readers should really enjoy it. And um. Yes. And so I really focused very much on this and worked with a book coach from the beginning because I, um. Yes, I had the feeling that I wouldn't bring it to an end. I wouldn't finish, um, because I wasn't. I would. I was, uh. Yeah, I had my. I had all this stuff in my head, but I wasn't. Had no idea how to write. I had no idea how to approach a publisher. I had no idea how to, um, improve my. My read, my writing. And I had no idea how to bring myself to not give up on the way because it seemed so big. And I thought, oh, um, yes, now, um, I would need a superior who would ask me, um, every few weeks, uh, what's. What's. What's happening and where are you and what are your problems and perhaps how could I help you? Um, but I have no one. I'm on my own now. And so I need a coach. And so I'm so pleased that I found a brilliant. I would say brilliant. Perfect for me. Um, book coach here in Germany. Um, she's working, um, only um, in German, but if there's a German listener, it's Tanina Luca. You can find her when you are on my LinkedIn site. I post every, um, few weeks I post something from her, um, because she's really wonderful and I work with her and she helped me to get clear on the concept and got clear on, um, or helped me to prepare to approach a publisher and really most important helped me, um, to write in a way that's more enjoyable for the reader. And she always said there are two. Two ways. Either you could either, um, write and for the reader it's um, they have all the work when they are reading it because they have to read it three times to understand it. And perhaps most would give up. Um, or you could. Could really put the work now, um, when you're, when you're trying to, or when you are writing it, um, you could, um, now put. Put into work, um, put. Or put much effort in, in the writing and then that would be the better way. And um, so we worked on that. Uh, I'm very happy that I did. Um. Yeah. What was helpful for me, um, other than a coach was that I was telling everyone that I want to write a book. And for example, Silver Lotri, um, I can remember two times when I was really in the beginning he. And he was still working at this time on his book. Um, he Asked me or he just finished perhaps he asked me um, Sabrina, what's about your book? And um, it. I know only LinkedIn on a message but I can remember that I really felt uncomfortable and perhaps a little bit ashamed because I didn't work so much and I thought oh yes, but in hindsight, in hindsight it was so helpful and I uh, already told him that it was really helpful for me that he asked not only one, I think two or three times oh, what's about your book? Where are you now? What are ah, your ideas? What is your next obstacle or whatsoever? He really helped me um and I also told the world everyone that I wanted to write a book. And then that was the first book helping me was which helped me. Um, then I approached this five um, people who I wanted to interview and even if we didn't do the interviews, um, at the beginning, um, I felt what's the word?

Speaker A: So an obligation then to go back to them.

Speaker B: Yes, exactly. And I wouldn't like to um, to say oh I don't follow, um, I don't working on that anymore but he'll help me. Um, and I know a little, perhaps I know a little bit how to trick myself because I know if I wouldn't do that only say some, some people do that. They tell no one and ask for themselves and only when it's ready they get well when it's nearly ready, um, they tell people that they have been writing a book for some time. It's what wouldn't be something for me. I really needed this obligation and then I had what the next big helpful step was when I um, signed the contract with the publisher and then I had a fixed date and then I would got much more productive because I had this fixed date and yes, um, and then, then it was fixed. So um, then I just was. It was still hard um, for me to also to get into this routine of writing um, to have right time when I'm, when I'm, because I have the two children and I also um, in the process of building my business and there was so much, so many things and so I really needed a good routine to concentrate on writing. That was another big obstacle. But when I got that it was, got more and more it got easier and for me because I'm someone who is really um. For me it's really helpful to feel connected and to feel. To get inspiration from other people and um, for example uh, at this time what was again something that was so helpful for me and I think I haven't told him in person but now I will, um, I have perhaps written something shortly but I haven't told him in person. It was really so helpful. I saw um, um, a video um, from, from a talk of Mark, from Mark Craben some years ago. I'm not recording from a talk some years ago and he shared in this talk, um, I don't know exactly what he called it. Um, was um, paper with 5 to 10 points. I can't remember, um, what he always like a mantra. What he always told himself that's the most important thing that I could do to develop my business now is to write this book. For example. That was something I took from me and other things about this. Getting himself to get into writing and to, to stay with his writing routine. And it was so helpful. I didn't copy it directly because um, I just adapted. But it was so helpful for me to, to take his idea and I also shared it to my group of other authors um, who were in the struggle to, to um, yeah. To write their books. Um, and yes, I think everyone was inspired and took something out of that. And so really when I walked the steps down in the morning because my writing time was early in the morning, um, I always told myself oh that's the most important thing today that I could do to develop my business. And then I got into writing. It was really helpful.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's terrific. That's terrific. And Mark's going to be so thrilled to hear that. Sure. He's going to be very happy to hear that. Sabrina, how do people find you if they want to talk to you?

Speaker B: Thank you. Um, best they find me on my LinkedIn page, Sabrina Malta. Um, they could also find me um, um they could also find that again on the LinkedIn page when they look where I'm working. I'm working on my own and unreal business consulting. Unwailbusinessconsulting. Um.com and um, they see it on my LinkedIn page. I have also a business LinkedIn page and they also see the website there. But um, I think it's best um, to write me a message um, on LinkedIn M or via email. Sabrina.m um. Maltamail.com um so I'm very happy to answer and to connect on LinkedIn and connect for chat and to talk about learning. Really love and to talk about learning.

Speaker A: Wow. Wow. So yes, everyone check out Sabrina on LinkedIn and um, look for her posts and um, I got to say this has been so much fun talking to you and uh, listening to your story and I know that you are going to keep on learning and keep, uh, on sharing with all the rest of us, um, about learning and, and how, how to keep doing it, because we know we need to learn a lot right now. So, so really, um, appreciate it. So thank you. Sabrina, thanks for joining me at the Edges of Lean.

Speaker B: Wow. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to have joined you, um, at least after, um, some years I told you. Oh, I don't know what to talk about. And I'm so happy that I, I'm have been here today. Thank you so much for inviting me and having me. Bella. Uh, thank you.

Speaker A: This is Bella Engelbuck and I would like to thank Sabrina Malta for joining me at the Ages of Lean. What did you learn from this conversation, which was all about learning? What ideas did it spark? We would love to hear from you. Find Sabrina on LinkedIn or at unveil-businessconsulting.com Please find me on LinkedIn or at leanforhumans.com subscribe to the Edges of Lean. There's a lot to learn. The Edges of Lean is written and produced by Bella Engelbach. This is a Lean for Humans production.

Speaker B: Sam.