Ep 136 Positive Intelligence with Corinna Freitag

Speaker A: Continuous improvement comes in lots of different flavors and styles.

Speaker B: I'm Bella Engelbach and I'm inviting you

Speaker A: to journey with me to the Edges of Lean. Episode 136 Positive Intelligence with Karina Freitag. Do you consider yourself to be good with people? Some of us are born with the skill of creating relationships and working well with others. So some of us struggle, especially people whose strengths are in science and technology. And we could all learn to be better at it. Whether you are a natural people person or not. Corinna Freitag has essential advice for all of us about the trait of positive intelligence and how it can enhance our work and personal relationships.

Speaker B: Karina Freitag, welcome to the Edges of Lean.

Speaker C: Thanks for having me, Bella.

Speaker B: It's really nice to have you here today. And uh, this is my first podcast of 2025, so I guess you could say it's start of uh, a new season. So very exciting day for, for, for me as well. Karina, I would love it if you would introduce yourself to everyone listening.

Speaker C: Yeah. So as a high level introduction, I'm executive coach, advisor and speaker with over 30 years of expertise in natural and human sciences. Through university, industry and continuing education, I help STEM professionals to overcome workplace challenges so that they look forward to Mondays again and executives hire me to improve team collaboration and thus outcomes. Regarding my background, I hold a PhD in chemistry. I'm certified as a Lean Six Sigma black belt and as an executive coach and I received my associate certified coach credential through the International Coaching Federation, the icf, which is the uh, gold standard of professional coaching. I have lived in different countries and worked for over 18 years globally in the automotive and chemical industry in various positions together with people on the shop floor up to the senior vice president level. And in my last position I worked as a, uh, Global Operational Excellence leader for over five years.

Speaker B: Wow, that's quite a career. And I love what you're doing because I think it's really important. Karina. Uh, one of the things that I know from my whole career has been in the life sciences is that we have this ongoing, um, I don't want to say problem, but I'm going to say probably going to have this ongoing problem of people who love um, the mathematics, who, people who love the science, people who love engineering. And they go into this world because they are passionate about being a good scientist or being a good engineer and all of a sudden they become somebody's manager. And it's really, for some people it's an easy switch, right? But for Other people, it's not an easy switch. And I don't know if it's because the people with certain brain types go into these technical fields or if it's just what they focused on, but all of a sudden there's this struggle. And of course, HR departments try to help with training and mentoring and all sorts of things, but there's this struggle that happens that now the idea that if I just tell people to do things, it will happen. They find that that doesn't work. And what, uh, I would love to ask you, Karina, is, was there a point for you in your career where you had an about this when you said, wait, this is a problem?

Speaker C: Yeah, I have to say, working together with other people, for me, that was never a problem. Actually, that worked from the beginning. It worked really very well. My. Huh huh was actually that for over 40 years, I had a strong belief that I'm not good with people. And then I started to work together with a coach, and she gave me, like, a task that I should ask, like, uh, several people who knew me well about my strengths. And then the most items that came back was about my strengths, that I'm good with people. And I was kind of like me. So for me, I would say it was kind of like the other way around. I was good with people since I don't know how many years. And I thought, I'm not good with people.

Speaker B: Wow. Wow. Isn't that interesting? So you had this belief that you weren't good with people, but other people thought you were good with people.

Speaker C: How do.

Speaker B: How do you see that playing out with other people? Uh, with. With some. With some of your clients, is it. Is it more a case that they actually have these skills, but they don't realize they do, or is it a case where people really need to learn some skills?

Speaker C: For most of my clients, I would say that they struggle with this, um, especially that they kind of, like, have conflicts like, with like, either with like, a lot of different people or with like, a special type of different. Of a different person, or that also they have kind of, like, communication issues, like, to bring their point across. So, yeah, I see this a lot with my clients.

Speaker B: And is it. Do you think I'm asking you. I don't know if this is a question that you. That you're able to answer. Do you think it's because a lot of people that just their brains are wired differently, that, you know, there's this maybe some, you know, some sort of neurodivergence going on there, or is it is, it just. They've never been taught that. They've been focused on doing technical things.

Speaker C: I guess it's like uh, mixture, I would say it's not kind of like. I m mean first of all, for sure, I mean all of our brains are like differently. And then also like uh, neurodiver divergence comes in, but then also regarding our strengths and weaknesses. I mean like a lot of people who go into STEM fields, their strengths is not like about like these social uh, skills. I mean that is the reason that they go to stem. I mean maybe not for everyone, but for a lot of them. And so then they only work on their strengths, but not on their weaknesses. But what I find very interesting is really when I work together with these people, it's like, I mean there are two things I do. It's the one thing that I really help them to rewire their brain and also that I ask questions and give them kind of like a step by step approach how they can change this. And for most of them it really works relatively quickly that they change. And so yeah, and I think this is kind of like the important thing. It's not written in like stone like you can change, you can change.

Speaker B: I love that. That's uh, and that's really important, right? It's, it's. We're not the, the way we are today. We will be different tomorrow and we have some control over that. It's uh, and what we, what we learn, what we practice, how we, how we behave. We can, we can, we can change our reactions, the way we feel about things and how effective we are with other people. Does it take more energy though? I mean for somebody, uh, somebody who is, you know, having difficulty with the, with those social skills, does it, does it sort of take more energy for them to do that? Do they, do they, do they need to also think about some sort of recovery time as well?

Speaker C: I mean I would say for sure if I start out with this, but I mean it's kind of like the way our brain works is that like the neurons that fire together, like wire together. So the more often you do like a new behavior, the bigger you get. Kind of like a highway in your like brain and so that you can fall automatically into this habit. So which means as a brinic beginning for sure, I would say it takes more energy and you really have to think about it. But the more often you do this, the less energy will. It will take. And I mean for sure, if there's like introvert person and an extrovert person. I would say for an introvert person it will be kind of like all the time that it will take more energy for them like to exchange with other people. Like then for an extrovert, a uh, person who probably like gets energy out of it, but I think at least people can get to the state that ah, for themselves they can reduce like the energy they need for it.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean the reason I asked the question is because I'm, I always tell people I'm, I'm an introvert who plays an extrovert. I mean you can't do a podcast. I'd be a complete introvert. Right. You know, in my consulting and coaching work, you know, all of my work is, is I have to be extroverted. But that for me that takes, that takes energy. And as you said, you know, for extra extroverted people it gives them energy and it's just important to recognize where are you and how, how does it fall out? So tell me Karina, when a client comes to you, do you start with some assessments with them? Do they, do you, how do you, how do you figure out what's the right approach for them?

Speaker C: Yep. I mean there are actually two things I do. I mean at the beginning I speak with them and I ask them what they want to achieve. And based on this we set targets and that we really use like yeah, targets with numbers and I mean it's still kind of like most of the targets, let's say subjective because if it's kind of like yeah, a soft skill, it's very often it's difficult to describe and it's more like maybe also a bit on the gut feeling. But uh, still you can put like on a like card scale like from 1 to 10, where are you right now? Where you want to be. This works actually quite well so that really you can quantify it and also like track the progress if it, yeah, if you improve or if the client improves. So this is like one thing I do and then also that I know with what kind of tools I should use. And then there is one tool that I use with my, all my clients. It's called positive intelligence. And at the beginning there's like an assessment where people assess what kind of saboteurs they have. And these saboteurs are these nasty voices in our head. And in total they're like 10 and there's like a uh, master saboteura is a so called judge. It's a master saboteur because this one actually every one of us has and the judge as the name says, judges, ourselves, others and circumstances. And then there are nine other saboteurs. And usually we have most of them or almost all of them, but in different intensities. And I asked them to do this test at the beginning, like, to see which kind of saboteurs they have. Because, for example, there's kind of like the controller who, as the name says, likes to control everyone, everything. This is like the micromanager or, for example, the avoider who would like to pull, like, the paper head or his or her, um, head to avoid things. And this kind of the person who likes to procrastinate or the restless, who likes to be all the time busy and looks like for the next big adventure. So this is what I do at the beginning, because based on this, yeah, I can connect already kind of like the dots. Okay, this does not work well for them. And then if I see, like, the assessment, it's kind of like, yeah, uh, no wonder why it's. Why it does not work well for them.

Speaker B: And that must be really helpful with. With the. With clients who are coming from a STEM background, because I think that for a lot of people going into something like coaching, where everything is kind of soft and mushy and there are no metrics and no KPIs, um, nothing feels like there's nothing you can measure. I mean, that just feels like a very strange place to be. But it's very interesting what you're talking about, which is, well, let's start out by doing some measurements. Maybe it's a little bit different from what you're used to, but let's do some measurements, let's do some assessments and that. And you know, you're. Now you're grasping the current condition. You know, what's really going on and you know where you. Where you're moving forward to. So that's, uh, that's a, That's a great way to start. It must feel kind of feel comforting to your. To your STEM clients.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, this is also me, the reason that I use it. I mean, first of all, I mean, I'm, um, myself, I'm like a, uh, scientist, so. So I studied chemistry and spent like years in this area. So for me, it's really important that the tools I use, that they have like a scientific, uh, proof plus. Really also. Yeah, to measure things. I mean, also I worked for years in continuous improvement using like, Lean Six Sigma tools in industry. And so there all the time. Yeah, we could or we measured things. And so therefore it's important to me to do this also like with my

Speaker B: clients, once you, once you have started to, you and the client have started to assess sort of where they are. Some coaches are very non directive, right. They ask the client a lot of questions and let the client kind of find their way. And the coaches, as you know, as some of the coaching teachers, uh, say as a guide by the side, do you take that kind of approach or do you have a more directive approach to say, look, this is the, this is the challenge that you're facing. Here are some strategies you can try.

Speaker C: I use the mix, so I use open ended questions like that people can come up with like their own answers. But I also like reflect and like hold the mirror up and I mean I, I worked in the space where they are now and where they struggle. So I have a lot of experience from this space. So therefore also I give advice. And the interesting thing to me is really, I mean I'm certified, certified YAZ International Coaching Federation. And they are kind of like, oh, you should only ask like these open ended questions. But a lot of my clients, they really tell me what they love most is that I give them advice based on my experiences.

Speaker B: You know, I think that that's a important thing to do myself. I mean you can't, I mean I certainly do, uh, try to coach as much as possible by asking questions but there are times when I do will step back and I always say now I'm. This is not classic coaching. This is not, this is not coaching. This is Bella giving advice based on my experience. And I think, you know, when you have someone who has experienced experience, one of the things that people lack is in addition to coaches, they lack uh, they lack mentors. Right. They have a hard time connecting with people who can provide them that bigger picture and advice from their experience. But I'm always really careful, as I think you are, to make sure that it's clear this is my advice. This is not the same thing as coaching. Yeah, yeah. I was on LinkedIn this morning Karina, and I saw a post that you had just put up about somebody who was struggling with sort of the art of conversation. And um, it actually made me think, as I was reading your post, it made me think about the challenge of finding mentors and sponsors, which is something that people read really need in their career. And so I really appreciated that that post, I wonder if you can you talk a little bit more about that without giving away too much about your client. Of course.

Speaker C: Yeah, I, I mean this was really interesting because my client, and I mean to my, to some people it might be when I bring this up that they think like, yeah, but this is like something which is very simple and easy to do. But for my client, she really struggled with this. So she planned to do like to have like with several colleagues, like lunch breaks because she wanted to improve like the relationship. But then she was kind of like, can I have this lunch break? And I have no idea what I should say. And so therefore I did like some brainstorming with her. I mean, first I asked her questions like, what are her ideas and what she could say? But then I also gave her like advice and also, I mean, based on what she told me because she had said, like with one of the colleagues, she went together, like to a seminar. Uh, and then I said like, hey, so then you can speak about the seminar and just like ask questions and how this person liked it or also for some person, she brought up some personal stuff. And then I said like, yeah, maybe then you can ask there like some question about like their children or maybe also like about vacation. And also you can share yourself personal stuff and see like how it resonates with the other person if the other person is interested. And I mean, if not, then don't share more, but if the person is interested in this topic, then you can speak more about it.

Speaker B: Yeah. So, uh, and it's funny, isn't it, because as you say, it sounds simple for a lot of people so that a chit chat and conversation just comes naturally. You know, you're going to sit down with someone, you're going to ask them, you know, you know, isn't this weather cold? Or you know, what, you know, how are the kids? I mean, that comes naturally, but I don't think it does come naturally to other people. And, and it's part of, um, isn't it of this, this idea of emotional intelligence, which is, which is about, not just about, you know, how you, how you feel, you know, emotionally. But, but how does, how do you understand how other people are feeling? And, and so, so it's a, it's an important part of building that kind of, that kind of skill. Is that something you see a lot that, that people are, I mean, you mentioned it before that, that a lot of people who work in STEM went into STEM because they're good at it and it's comfortable for them. I know when, you know, you know, you see some people and they just sit, they just sit down, they chat naturally, they create those relationships and those relationships are important just because we're social creatures. And we need relationships, but they're also important from a career perspective. Right. That when you know people, you're building a network, you're. You're creating ways for your career to advance. You're learning about other fields that are. That are adjacent to yours. Why do you think that people have not learned this?

Speaker C: I think because it's never. It was never taught in school. I, uh, mean, we. We learn like Mars. We learn history and we learn different languages, but we never really learn, like, how to interact with other people. I mean, at least not as like that. There's like a major about it. So maybe we learn it like, with like our classmates, but there is. No one really teaches this to us.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do. I think that if. Well, it depends on people's. So the type of people, the type of person you are. Right. Children who get to spend a lot of time playing with each other will learn some of those social skills on the playground or, you know, out in the park or something. But not every kid has that experience, and not every kid is able to go into that already prepared to have those conversations or to have those little arguments or the things that help to build those social skills.

Speaker C: Yeah. Plus, I guess also it depends on, like, how they grew up, like, what happened or what their parents did, if they were like, good role models or not. And also, again, on the strengths and weaknesses. I mean, there are people, they just do it, but then there are people, it's a weakness of them. And then they struggle to do this, and then they don't know how to do it. And. Yeah, and.

Speaker B: And it creates anxiety, and then it's hard because you're anxious about it. Right, right, right. Karina, can you tell us, uh, maybe tell a story about. About some of your clients and the kind of successes that they've had with your coaching?

Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. So one client. And so actually she had like, two major issues. So the one thing was that when something bothered her, she did not say anything. And she waited so long till everything exploded in her like, uh, um, water in a steam cooker. And so that was then also kind of like the way she reacted. So at one point she just exploded, which then does not. Did, uh, not make it so. Yeah. Nice to work with her.

Speaker B: It must have been terrible, actually.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Really terrible. Yeah.

Speaker C: And. But the great thing was really that already something around after two weeks of coaching, like, her manager asked her, like, what she was doing because her behavior had already changed significantly to the better. And then actually she. The other, uh, thing she had was that she had like a conflict with one of her team members. And she was also sitting with this person in one office. And she had this conflict already like for around seven years. And now she was kind of like, oh my goodness, yes. Yeah, this is like a long time now. She was really kind of like, I'm so sick of it and I don't want to have this anymore. I look for a new job. But the problem was for her it was really kind of like a pattern she had in general, how she called it like a problem with grumpy old men. So she could not handle them. And so also with this, like with this team member, just after a few weeks of coaching, her uh, relationship like improved already. And at the end of the coaching they were best working bodies. And probably because they are very different, I don't expect that they go together out like for having a dinner or like a coffee or beer. But work wise there were now really best work bodies. And for me it's also interesting because I want to know if my coaching is like sustainable. So I asked my clients, is there willing to meet again like after a few months? So I did this and she was still kind of like, oh, it's like she was like really smiling. And so as she spoke about like how the relationship with this, uh, person changed.

Speaker B: That is a fantastic story. And I feel sorry for her colleague that she had decided he was a grumpy old man. And so I'm glad she was able to work that out. So what were some of the things that you helped her with, helped her do then? How did she change? Change? Was she changing her behavior which then led to a change in her thinking?

Speaker C: Yeah, the one thing is what I use is this positive intelligence because this really helps like to we wire our brain like to change habits. But then also the other thing, especially like when you have conflicts with other people. So that I asked like certain questions. So I mean, and you spoke about like the emotional intelligence. So and this is usually missing that they do not really think about this other person. So I start to give them like this awareness, like to ask questions like, what do you think this other person sing? How do they feel? What is like, how does their world look like? And so that suddenly they get like another perspective and also really ask them like what they really want to achieve with this person. What is important for them. For example, there was like one client and she also, I mean she had like a uh, conflict with another person like for a year. And at she, at the time she started, she was kind of like that she wanted uh, they, they really get also like best buddies, like privately. But then after time she realized no, it's not necessary. It's really just like work wise, really needs to be like good buddies. But privately it does not matter. And then also like I ask questions so that they understand kind of like where they have commonalities, where they have like this common ground and doing this and helping them like yeah. To, to get there. This yeah. Usually really helps that they can improve their relationship. And I mean also maybe to give like an example. No, go ahead. So for this client because she also had said like about this team member. She complained about that he never shared important information with her. But then I asked like, okay, did you ever tell him that you need this information? And then it came out like that Sometimes he sent her this information but she never said like thank you, like hey, this is great that you sent this to me. She just forget, forgot it. And also these kind of like things. Yeah. When you are in the situation it's very easy to overlook this. But if there's like a person from the outside then you can point it out and say like hey, look here, there's maybe something you are missing.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So she had to, she had to learn to see him as another human being worthy of respect and also to acknowledge the things that he was doing that were, that were actually good for her, which I can't imagine on his side. Then if he was never being thanked for when he sent the information, you know, I'm not going to send that information. Why, why would I send it? She, she doesn't acknowledge that she got it. Maybe she doesn't need it.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: Yeah. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Karina, can you tell us a little bit more about positive intelligence and how that is different from other types of intelligence?

Speaker C: Yeah. So positive intelligence is about like training what I call mental toughness. And what that means is like how you handle challenges with a positive rather than like uh, negative mindset. And with this, I don't mean that suddenly like everything is like sunny and rose colored. It's really. I mean life throws challenges uh, in our way and this probably will never change, but it's a difference if you can approach like those challenges with like a positive or a negative mindset. So this really makes the big difference. And the concept of positive intelligence teaches that you can change this like to approach this like more in a positive way. And they say like there are three mental core muscles. I mean we don't have like muscles in our brain. They are Neurons. But I like the analogy because for example, when you want to run a marathon, if you only read a book about it then and you don't any training, so then probably you will fail. I mean reading the book will probably help you to prepare better, but you also need to train. And it's like the same with like our mental muscles, we need to train them and they're like these three different mental muscles like the saboteurs which I mentioned already, like these nasty voices in our head who tell us all these yeah, negative things and when we are able to catch them, it makes a difference to say like this is a saboteur who says this about me. Or if you think that this is like your own thought, so this is like the one mental muscle, then there is like this antagonist, it's a so called sage who has like a special perspective that everything can be turned into a gift and opportunity. And then it has also like special powers like for example empathy. So that you learn to have empathy with yourself or with others and also to be curious like and explore and to innovate. And uh, the third thing is that you are able to self command your mind so that when the saboteurs speak to you that you can quiet them. And so this works like that you use your five senses, so your sense of sight, taste, smell, hearing and touch. And by this you activate and strengthen the part of the brain that serves you. And as a simple um, example you can do this after some practice really in the middle of the day. So when you are sitting in the meeting and someone speaks, you can use your sense of hearing and listen to this person. Also you can use your sense of sight and really to watch this person. Just very important without judging this person. Or you just use your pen and use your sense of touch and be curious how the surface of the pen feels. So these are like exercises you can do and which then yeah, as I said, activates and strengthens the part of the brain that serves us.

Speaker B: And that must really help with, with as you're saying, those internal saboteurs. Right. Because it's going to, it's going to take you away from listening to what's going on, um, in your head. Those, those um, those thoughts, those ideas that, that are, that are negative, that it, that are getting in the way. Yeah, because that brings you then right into the present moment. It makes you aware of the, your surroundings. Yeah, that's a wonderful mindfulness technique, but it's an attention technique. Right, right. It brings you back to, I don't have To I don't have to be thinking about how uh, terribly I just spoke. I can think about the person who's speaking now. And just as you. I love what you said to observe them without judgment, uh, to, you know, to hear them, just to really be present. Right. That sounds like a tremendously effective practice for people to take on. Yeah. Karina, tell us about how people can find you and about uh, all the places that you are, which is a lot of places.

Speaker C: So yeah, I think the best place is probably on LinkedIn because there are, I mean as you just mentioned, you just read like a post and I post there regularly.

Speaker B: So.

Speaker C: So which means like yeah, people can read my content but also they connect, can connect with me on LinkedIn and like send me a note. And also I have like a uh, homepage which is just my name, like rinafreitag.deor.com also like works. These are actually the two best places to find me.

Speaker B: That's great. And I have to say I do enjoy your LinkedIn posts. They're very interesting and so I uh, suggest that everybody check them out. There's always something to learn from what Karina is posting on LinkedIn. Karina, as you think about like where we are right now with the uh, the educational system and I think. And you're in Germany, right? Um, you know, here in the US there's this movement towards what they call social emotional learning, which is teaching some of the things that you're talking about, particularly to some of the younger students with I think an idea to reduce some of the conflict that we see in school. School, um, and to help children be better at the things that you're talking about. But there's also kind of a pushback to that of ah, people who are saying, well that's not real education. Why don't we stick to reading and math? The kids are not, they don't, they don't know how to read. After Covid, nobody knows how to read. Everybody's on their phones too much. People can't do math anymore. Uh, and I was just wondering from your perspective going forward, if you were advising the schools, what would you be doing?

Speaker C: I, uh, would advise like awesomely to teach these things. I mean for sure it's like important that people can do like mass and things like that and learn like different languages. But I mean if they just have like maybe like one or two hours per week. And so with this, maybe one of those other areas. So I mean just let's say you learn a little bit less about let's say, say, like history or, I don't know, whatever else, I think this would not hurt. I mean, my experience is that so many things I learned in school, I forgot it anyway. And. But really, to add, like, at least one or two, um, hours per week to really learn these things, I really think this would make a big difference. And for me, I mean, especially kind of like this tool of positive intelligence. I only discovered it in 2022 and during the time at university, I mean, I did already things in parallel, like to train my soft skills, but this was more, like around, okay, how to communicate better or how to give, like, a better presentation. And it did not really, like, tackle the root causes like positive intelligence does. And so I think if I would have had such a tool already, like, earlier in my life and, yeah, maybe already, like, have learned about it in school, I think with this I would have been far more, like, successful. But also it would have made my life, like, easier and. Yeah, with less struggle.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Easier, happier.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Interesting. Karina, what would be your one piece of advice for a young person starting out?

Speaker C: Yeah, really to train your mental toughness. I think this is so important. And I mean, for sure. Also, like, if you are in the STEM area, for sure, it's also important that you know, like, the area, like your topic you work in. But it's really so much about these other things about kind of like what maybe you think it's kind of like this, who I don't know. So about these soft skills. So therefore, I really recommend, like, working on training your mental toughness and what I define as like, that you can handle challenges with, like, a positive rather than a negative mindset because this really will help you tremendously to overcome your challenges and thus thrive at work and in your life.

Speaker B: Really, really good advice because no matter who you are or how good you are, how intelligent you are, uh, those challenges do come along and, you know, being able to tackle them with positive frame of mind, as you said, not that not, not looking at everything through rose colored glasses, but just with that positive frame of mind would make a really big difference. Wonderful advice. Thank you, Karina. Well, Karina, thank you so much for traveling with me to the edges of lean. This has been a really good conversation for all of us who are coming from that technical background or work with people from the technical background. So thanks so much for coming along.

Speaker C: Thanks so much for having me, Bella.

Speaker A: Um, this is Bella Engelbach, and I would like to thank Corina Freitag for joining me. At the edges of Lean. What did you learn from this conversation? What ideas did it spark? We would love to hear from you. Find Karina on LinkedIn and arenafright.de Please find me at LinkedIn or at leanforhumans.com subscribe to the Ages of Lean. There's a lot to learn. Check out all the tremendous lean content@leancommunicators.com where you will receive informative new content every week. The Ages of Lean is written and produced by Bella Engelberg with support from Podcast, Inc. This is a Lean for Humans production production.