Commerce media: the death of the traditional funnel?

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Hello, welcome to the Drum podcast. I'm Sam Anderson. Uh, we're talking. Well I usually say what we're talking about. It's not we, it's not me at all. Um, today I'm bringing you a one of our bonus episodes from one of our uh, secretly broadcast closed door conversations with real life marketers where they sit around in a table with my, my colleague Richard and tell us what they really reckon is going on behind the closed doors of agencies today. On the analysis pedestal is Commerce Media and, and the marketing funnel. Now I know a lot of our listeners here may have, may have some background or interest in marketing but uh, just to, just to tee this one up, here's the question. A lot of marketers think about marketing as a funnel pointing downwards, nice and wide at the top, narrowing down. And the job of the marketer is to keep encouraging the customer down the tightening gyre of that funnel until the final tip of the funnel where they buy the thing or do the thing that you want them to do. And Commerce Media is a set of things shopping directly on TikTok or shoppable formats directly from Amazon and integrations with retail media networks with real uh, uh, stores and supermarkets blur the boundaries between uh, traditional top of funnel activities, mass reach and traditional bottom of funnel activities where you're uh, targeting someone who is already aware and clued up to some extent about your brand. So the question is, has Commerce Media and those other things around it uh, killed uh, that that funnel, messed it around? Can we, can we still think of it with that nice neat downward pointing triangle image or are we dealing with something else? Or indeed was, was the funnel ever an accurate picture of, of how people buy and think about brands and that kind of thing? That's what we're talking about. Or that's what Richard is going to be talking about with his, with his three guests who he will introduce more fully when I hand over to him in a second. Uh, they are Hannah McNally at J Wing, Victoria Piopel at uh, Epsilon, and Nick uh, Handley at uh, Collective three. Right, we'll hand you over to Richard and I'll see you very briefly at the end. Goodbye.

Speaker C: Hi, welcome to today's Drum podcast. Uh, we're diving into one of the biggest debates shaping modern marketing at the moment. Um, and that is has Commerce Media killed the traditional funnel, um, or our market is finally seeing how messy consumer behavior has always been. For years the industry has been obsessed with attribution, conversion signals and bottom funnel efficiency as retail data, uh, closed Loop measurement and commerce platforms evolve. Many a question whether the funnel was ever an accurate reflection of how people actually buy. So today we're asking are we witnessing the collapse of the funnel, a measurement revolution or simply a long overdue reality change check for marketers? And I'm delighted to have with me to discuss all those things. Nick Handley who's performance director at Connective3, uh, VIC people who's client service client success director at Epsilon, and um, Hannah McNally who's the media director at J Wing. So hello everybody. Thanks a lot for being with us today.

Speaker D: Thank you.

Speaker C: We'll jump straight into this because I know you lot are raring to go and have lots of opinions to share. So let's just kind of open up broad starter for 10. Um, when you hear the phrase the death of the funnel, what's your kind of immediate reaction? How do you kind of react or respond to that? Hannah, do you want to kick us off?

Speaker A: Yeah, sure. So I was thinking about this earlier and when I first started out in media the funnel was definitely forefront of media planning and um, basically figuring out where you should invest your clients budget based on their objectives. Right. So when we put together a media plan we'd very much think about okay, how much are we going to, how much of the budget we're going to invest in awareness, what channels do we need to be planning for to get the brand in front of people m tell them the USP is and basically persuade them to then go onto the website or discover more about this brand. Then they'd come into the consideration layer. So then what channels would work best there? Could we look at retargeting them and then finally down into conversion layer. So okay, how are we then actually going to um, get them to drive through and become a lead or become a sale. So that was definitely when I first started out my career how everybody was talking and how media planning was done. I think now it's become a little bit less linear to that and the consumer journey's changed so much and to the point on commerce media specifically and now with um, TikTok, shop and other commerce platforms making it so easy, uh, and accessible for users to discover a brand in the platform, um, engage with more content about that, search for it in that platform and then purchase in that platform, it has meant that those touch points, other touch points and other channels aren't necessarily, I'm not going to say needed but aren't as ah, um, frequently used compared to if we didn't have these commerce channels available to Us and the example that I was talking about earlier was my own example of I was on TikTok um a couple of weeks ago. And um, there's especially with beauty trends obviously depending on the products, there was a M trend about the Medicube products. So uh, basically this is like a new beauty trend on TikTok. A lot of influencers are using them and talking about them. I got served um, some content on that. I then searched for this product in uh, TikTok and I then got served an influencer ad which then made me impulsively buy it and I purchased it through TikTok shop. That was all in one platform. So that I think has definitely changed consumers mindsets and that path to conversion when it comes to impulse buys and certain products. Because I was quite happy to part with 15 pound there and then in the platform and not do any of the research on it and not look at the Medicube website. Whereas if it was a bigger ticket item, um, um, like we were speaking about earlier, if it was to book a holiday or um, something that was maybe more than 50, 100 pound, I would need those other touch points to then make that purchase. So then I maybe would go to the website or I would look on their socials or I would use um, maybe AI to get some reviews. Um, there definitely would be more touch points there. Uh, but yeah, I definitely think it depends on the product and the consumer's mindset at the time as to whether or not they fit into that traditional funnel anymore.

Speaker C: Where do you stand on that, Victoria?

Speaker D: Yeah, I think I would agree with what Hannah's talking to there. I think for me when we say like the death of the funnel it feels maybe a bit um, drastic. I think it's maybe not the depth of the funnel in that those um, parts of the funnel, be it awareness, consideration, conversion probably are still existing. Um, but it's not the depth of the funnel so to speak, but rather the depth of how we've traditionally used that ah, funnel. So it's less about. Can we at the start of when we're planning a campaign or media planning, fix audience segments into those fixed segments and then expect fixed measurement off the back of that that can neatly define and um, sit in those different kind of segments Instead. What we know, what Hannah's just spoken to from her own experience with Medicube is that customers shop very messily. It's not linear. Uh, they are going through many different channels that they're interacting with. So I think the funnel isn't necessarily dead. I think the way in which marketers have historically used it has had to die based on kind of where the environment and the market is currently at.

Speaker C: Yeah, so I think it's journalists who like to make everything sound very dramatic. We talk about the death of the funnel itself. Uh, we'll come to you now Nick, because I know you've got a slightly different take on the death of the funnel.

Speaker E: I do. Um, so in my opinion the funnel never really existed and I know it's

Speaker C: quite hot, we'll kill it anyway.

Speaker E: But the idea for me is that uh, it used to. The funnel was used, you know, to train salespeople around 1898 I think is when it first was coined. And as marketers we've sort of just adopted something that's easy to sell into financial directors, to key decision makers to really justify the budget that we're wanting to do. And granted, uh, in my opinion, channels have never moved, you know, they've never moved in a funnel shape. It's never been, you know, downwards, from up to down. It's always been a bit more lateral. Like channels work side by side and they're working alongside each other. And as I think to Hannah's point with TikTok shop in particular, we've seen it where you know, Commerce Media has shown that it can all exist in one place as well. So I think it's not the. I may be slightly different in terms of saying the funnel never really existed but I think to Vic's point, traditionally we're having to change how we view and look at uh, the way we measure M media. Like Commerce Media in my opinion is just making the chaos a bit more visible um, in terms of how we purchase especially like strong first party data points and other bits like that. But yeah, in my opinion it's just great. A bit of like a management fiction of saying that we've always had to go through this funnel and media sits in different places on it. That's not how it works. It never really has been because there's so much that's not visible that we don't account for within that journey anyway.

Speaker C: Yeah. Do you think Commerce Media has kind of revealed, uh, the uh, discovery consideration and conversion are actually kind of happening simultaneously rather than sequentially with how um, marketers have probably always thought it did.

Speaker A: We're all nodding our heads, I feel like. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker C: Um, we kind of um, we talk about this quite a lot. Um, do you think brands are kind of now undervaluing the emotional connection? Um, that Consumers need with their, with their brand because it's, I mean it's obviously harder to measure. It always kind of has been um. But you think brands are now kind of really undervaluing the uh, value of that uh, emotional connection.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think um, I think for me it's, I think it's quite hard to. Going back to um, Nick's point on obviously within the funnel, when it come back to, when it um, comes back to how do we measure certain channels and how do we attribute that back to a business objective? It's definitely something that I uh, think not brands lose sight of but because your media budget is obviously expected to then provide a business outcome. So whether that is sales leads, whatever that business objective is, I do think that definitely in our experience we've got a lot of partners that are very focused on but of the funnel conversions and how that's going to help um, improve their bottom line, which I do completely get because you know at the end of the day you want a result for the investment that you're investing in. Um, um. But I would say that it's, I think personally it's more important than ever for brands to think about forging um, lasting connections because there is so much competition, there's so much noise in the market, it's so hard to get cut through that. Personally if I had my own brand I'd be focusing on um, investing in, getting customers to become advocates for me and trying to invest more in that lifetime value rather than having. And I'm not saying this is all products on like TikTok shop or any other commerce platforms. But uh, in a lot of those cases I do think it's kind of like just one purchase and then they don't get those repeat purchases. So then you are always just paying for that one customer and that's obviously a lot more expensive than having um, building that relationship and having a customer that's going to stay with you and be loyal to you for years to come. So for me I do think birth can, birth can be true. Right. You definitely have to um, invest in channels that you know are going to work hard to drive your sales and they're going to prove a return so that you can reinvest and keep, um, keep diversifying into other channels that are then going to forge those connections, um, and build those relationships. Um, but I definitely think it's something that brands need to uh, focus just as much on, um, is that connection with their customers as well as okay, how much do we need to be investing in um, channels that we know are directly attributing sales or leads or whatever that business outcome is.

Speaker C: Where do you stand on that, Victoria, on that question?

Speaker D: Yeah, I think I would largely echo kind of Hannah's point there. I think emotion and that emotional connection with your consumers is probably being thought about a lot more by brands now. And that's where we've seen the rise of different brands doing more community based things, whether that's in person events or trying to really establish stronger communities. But obviously what I think is difficult from a marketer perspective is that it's really hard to tangibly put a number on impact when it's emotion based. So I think that's really where the shift's gonna have to come in, that brands probably do value it and we're seeing that shift upstream and they're uh, trying to do things. But what we've maybe not caught up with just yet is how do we then tangibly measure that? Or actually do we need to measure that? Is it more anecdotal or qualitative on how we're telling that story of the impact of marketing um, internally to different business units?

Speaker C: What about yourself Nick?

Speaker E: I think to Vic's point, speaking about community led marketing in particular and creating bigger events that are less digital, um, it is harder to, to market but we are seeing a lot more brands decide to do it. I think the difference is it depends on the brand. Right. Um, if you're FMCG spy, like for example selling toilet roll, it's a lot less. Bigger brands will have higher barrier to entry in terms of purchase. But I think the way that uh, we're viewing it connected, uh, three is when we run those sorts of campaigns is that uh, we will start running incrementality testing alongside it to understand whether that GEO is actually seeing an uplift of metrics that we can follow such as conversion sales or revenue. Um, but it's trying to pin down because every financial director I've ever worked with loves to put a tangible number to any activation that we do, which can be frustrating for marketers because I agree with Vic, sometimes we don't need to measure it. We've got this fixation on measurement and it's becoming more prominent than ever. But we didn't do this back uh, way before I was born, say the end of the 70s and 80s. It was print media was very much done on viewable eyeballs and it was looking at the impact it had in that sense. And I feel that we do need to shift back to that in Some ways. But until then we can use incrementality testing and try attach the emotional side to the rational side for decision makers within a business. Feels like a fluffy answer, but I think that it's incredibly important. Brands do need to look at it, but as marketers we do need to find better ways to measure it through some form of metric. And contribution feels a much better avenue of an attribution in this case.

Speaker C: Yeah, you met, you mentioned the incrementality word there that um, we did an event, uh, Commerce Media event in Miami a few weeks ago and that uh, that word came up a lot. Um, as I suppose, you know, a lot of brands are, you know, kind of struggling to prove what's incrementally, what's an incremental sale rather than a sale that would have happened. Um, anyway, where do you guys kind of sit on that, you know, where you know the importance of incrementality and how that, how that is kind of moving forward. Um, and being I suppose, kind of measured and the measurement of it developing.

Speaker E: I can, I can jump back in.

Speaker C: Um, yeah, go for it.

Speaker E: Increment incrementality. I think as you know, I've mentioned multiple times, it's a hot topic at the moment as well. Everybody feels that they want to do it, but it's becoming a lot easier to do given, you know, platforms moving away from just like brand uplift and you know, other measurements or metrics or systems and frameworks like that. And we're moving more to conversion led. And I think incrementality is a fantastic way to prove the value of Commerce Media because I have a big bugbear with every platform that it marks its own homework. And I think attribution is the biggest part of that as well. If you look at a client's CRM and look at how many sales have come through, if you add up all platform attribution, it's probably going to be overfat in a lot of ways. If we go for a conversion point of view, incrementality is super important and we run it through Meridian using uh, Geo holdout package from Meta. Um, if anyone's talking to that, it's boring, I wouldn't recommend it, but it's good fun if you like that sort of stuff. Um, but one of the big things for me is that people need to recognize incrementality is a snapshot in time. It's not necessarily saying that every time you run an activation it will do the same thing. Uh, every time that you run anything it will do the exact same output. It really depends on the creative, the time, and it's not necessarily time series that's talking about one single static point in time and really needs to be used alongside other forms of measurement, whether that's mmm, econometric or even platform data, to inform what you should actually do from a creative level, from a targeting level, from what your first party data tells you. It's only giving that one snapshot of the test that you set up and the hypothesis you wanted to test. And I'll pause there because I could go on forever on this one.

Speaker C: Do you want to jump in on that one, Hannah or Victoria?

Speaker A: I think I largely agree what you're saying, Nick. And I think, um, we've definitely had clients that we've um, activated new channels for and um, planned in holdout regions that we can report back on. Okay. Has had any impact. And um, I think the, the reason we do that is just to make sure that we're able to provide, especially with these channels where if clients haven't got budget, to have an econometric model and invest in this just so that we've got some kind of measurement to prove the impact of that. And um, I think I can kind of, um, speak for us all here. When you're activating new channels of clients and they're a little bit hesitant and there hasn't been that, um, you know, previous proof of. Okay, is this moving the needle for me then? You do need to have something like that where you're measuring back and you're able to um, say to the market manager or CFO that yes, this is working. We can see the impact that this has had. Please can you then invest some more into this channel and we can look at whether it becomes part of like they're always on strategy or we just activate key times.

Speaker B: Um.

Speaker A: But yeah, I would agree with Nick. It's definitely, um. It's definitely something where you need to be making, making sure that you're not just leaning on one attribution model or one data point. It's worth having different data points to then prove. Okay, is this actually moving the needle and having the impact that we wanted it to?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think the um phrase you use there is, you know, the networks kind of marking their own homework. That um, was again a kind of a, quite a theme of the event we did, um, a few weeks ago, um, and we had a lot of the networks in the room, um, kind of Costco and some of the big us, uh, um, uh, retail networks, um, and a lot of brands and there was kind of like a tension in the room almost between the, the two, um, two sides of the uh, the equation sort of thing. Um, but what, I mean obviously there's people who kind of work in this day in and day out and you know, experience this. Um, you know, what's your kind of uh, or what do you guys think the answer is to this? You know, the network's kind of marking their own homework and all having their own kind of different ways of measuring, measuring this, that and the other. Um, it makes it very difficult for the brands to um, you know, to use a lot of these networks. What do you think the answer is for, For I suppose kind of you know, commerce media in its broadest form to move forward to the next, to the next level because been obviously a huge growth, growth curve. Um, what's the kind of answer to that? How does it kind of solve that uh, solve that problem of marketing its own homework?

Speaker D: Yeah, I think, I mean it's, it's uh, ongoing ever going um, challenge in the industry and that you know, as long as we have a fragmented industry and range of different channels that brands can activate against that marking own homework is always going to happen. Especially when you've got different ways of defining say incrementality or different ways of actually measuring different things. For me I think where there's a shift that could be happening is instead of debating about the metric that we're getting as an output, it should be more on actually validating the inputs that are going in in the first place. So if brands or retailers have more of an understanding on what is the gold standard, be that through IAB or be that through what's being adopted across the industry, how can then we make sure that what their proposition looks like is really setting up to align to that gold standard? And I think again it's for brands to also then do that due diligence of what are the inputs going into the campaign and then do that vetting ahead of time so that then when they get the outputs off the back of it, it feels like a more clear picture on what they were initially signing up for. I would also add that having kind of just one metric as a proof point of impact is also a shift that needs to happen. So we have the luxury now where we've got a number of different ways that we can measure not just on say roas, but also looking at in store measurement, tying the dots back to footfall measurement, footfall tracking, et cetera. So for me it's not Necessarily about focusing on one metric in isolation. But looking at where we know we do have better visibility of those data inputs, how can we make sure that we're telling a broader and painting of better visualization picture of all of the metrics that are affected by that media in the first place?

Speaker E: Yeah,

Speaker C: as, as I said, because we were kind of talking earlier, you know, I'm not allowed to do any interviews nowadays without mentioning AI. Um, it's purely, completely against the law. Um, so how do you, how do you guys think that the rise of kind of AI and agentic commerce, um, how is, how is that going to impact the uh, the funnel even more in the future? And uh, will it obviously make it even less relevant than it is today?

Speaker D: Oh, sorry. I was going to say I think most m likely. I think we've already kind of spoken about, um, I think Hannah, you mentioned with like planning a holiday, you've already used kind of AI to look at planning for that. So we all know as consumers we're using it somewhat differently in our day to day. I think where you've got agentic AI coming in, we know that that could be a shift that happens in the future where agents are purchasing on behalf of individuals. I think how much that's actually adopted in reality is another thing right now. So not necessarily where I see the biggest shift happening, but that is something that we might need to consider at some point of, you know, when we could be messaging agents or actually reporting back on conversions that have taken place by an agent. How do we then like respond to what that actually looks like from an attribution perspective or tangible contributions? So I think definitely it's worth talking about for me, the kind of rise of agentic AI purchasing or making these decisions on behalf of consumers I think is slower to come to fruition though.

Speaker A: Definitely. I think um, Nick, you mentioned it earlier where you were like, I just don't see in the near future a lot. Well, a lot of people trusting them with like the credit card details and stuff. And I think it's definitely comes down to like to your point, Victoria, about um, like demographics as well. Like when I think about my mom, she d put her credit card details into like Marks and Spencer's online, not Mike Spencer Sainsbury's online. So she's not going to do. She's not going to use AI to let an agent purchase for her. Um, but it'll be interesting to see as time goes on if that younger demographic does tap into that. I think AI for me, like personally, I'M definitely using it to research stuff as Victoria saying. I was saying I was using it to plan an itinerary for me when I go on holiday. But also looking at like I know nothing about cars. If I need like a car part and I'm going to get like my dad to help me replace it, I'll use that as well. So I think for researching and discovering products, I think it definitely has its place. Um, I'm not too sure like we said earlier about letting um, it buy for me and then giving it that trust because also I feel like that takes away. I don't know about you guys. I quite like just mindlessly shopping like do you know what I mean? Online I quite like it. Like I don't, you know, it's a bit of leisure, it's a bit of downtime especially for stuff that I want to buy, like clothes stuff not on about like supermarket shop. I know some people like to do that and browse, you know, Tesco's online. But I genuinely like browsing Airsoft and I like looking um, at like different outfits and stuff. So I wouldn't really want somebody doing that for me. And um, it's the same when you know we were talking, I know years ago, obviously people are on about the death of the retail. I feel like that's coming back. And you mentioned Victoria like with John Lewis, you're, you're now doing more in person events and in star events because I feel like people are wanting to shop and have that interaction with brands. Um. So yeah, I, I do think it's quite a long way off but again I might just not be the demographic that would use it anyways.

Speaker C: What do you think Nick, about that?

Speaker E: Yeah, Tamara. Tamara Buff is guys points that uh. I think it's going to be a slow adoption. I think that people are untrustworthy and just anecdotally I spoke at an event uh about a month ago and I actually asked a question. How many people would or have used agent E Commerce to buy or purchase and nobody put their hand up and that was a room of about 100 people. People are incredibly skeptical about it but I do think agentic um, commerce is changing the way that uh, we will purchase eventually. So to fix point I generally do think it will happen but I just think that the adoption is going to be incredibly slow and to mirror Hannah, I've used, you know, I've used you know things like Chat, GPT, Gemini, the rest of them to start building out what I am actually looking for. That's A bit more bespoke to me. And I've uh, just started like coin as conversational uh, commerce now because I'm still getting served products that I care for but I'm still going onto a website and doing my research and I have been to stores, tested out products especially with running shoes and it's never going to take that element away. And I think to the point around, you know, community led events and you know, actual in person, I feel that we are seeing a rejection especially I don't know, other people in this room. But as a millennial I generally do miss that community feel and having those in person events and having things tangible as well. And I think that sort of marketing will reign actually and be a lot bigger in the space in the next year. In particular we're seeing it, you know, that it's another people that doing all these cool events but nobody uh, is like we are 100% going on an agent e commerce because I think it's not fully tested and we've seen this happen before with platforms that have come and gone where we had Atlas for uh, chatgpt, um, that no longer exists, their search function that doesn't uh, exist anymore. So I feel that we're going to see the adoption from people like Google and other people like that, like uh, Google iOS just being around and you never mentioned around having agents built into search which is absolutely mad and something that I could not imagine in the early 2000s when I suppose Google was just a thing. Um, but yeah, to everyone's point here is I think it's going to be slow. I don't think it's going to change too much in conversion journey. I think if we were going to put it into a traditional funnel it would sit in that consideration where it wouldn't necessarily be always a purchase point. But yet again it just adds that linearity of how people do search and get information about a product and potentially buy.

Speaker C: Yeah, cool, thank you. Brilliant. Right, well thank you for that. Um, but just to bring it kind of full stop circle back to where we started from. Um, if the um, if the funnel is dead, if it's no more, um, what, what will replace it and do we need anything to replace uh, it to help uh, to help marketers do the job kind of moving forward.

Speaker E: I think to start with, I think if the funnel did die or in my opinion didn't even exist, what actually needs to happen is it's the education piece of how we actually measure like media now and we've got so many Better ways of doing it than just looking at last qlik attribution which it was many moons ago across pretty much every platform or uh, having zero attribution on some. And it's actually like looking at incrementality testing. Mmm if you can afford it as a business but then using tactical levels and levers as your attribution. But I think it will sit between attribution and contribution of how we can reframe media planning and buying and it's actually educating quite clients and stakeholders on where and how we will measure not where it sits within a funnel. So it's shifting, it's shifting from a funnel to you know actually looking at channels in silo and um, together and looking at how we actually have a measurement arms behind that as well.

Speaker A: Definitely. I think it's also looking at the person and not when you think about when you wake up, uh, like how we engage with all these different channels and platforms. Again it's not linear and it's not a traditional thought funnel. You know you might wake up and open TikTok straight away, then you might go on your emails, then you're traveling to work, you're seeing out of her mod, you listen to radio, you're on Spotify. Like we've got so many different touch points now that there's no way that the funnel can be as linear linear as it once was. But I think going back to my earlier point I would say it's about looking at okay, how can we build lasting relationships with the consumer rather than thinking about okay, do we have to invest X amount in awareness throughout the year, uh then in concentration then in conversion. Um so for me it's more about yeah, building those relationships and having and just being visible um, in those touch points that you know that your audience is on anyways just day to day. Um, but yes, Nick's point obviously then being able to measure that and um, obviously be able to go back and say okay, this has had an impact

Speaker C: and we'll give you the last word, shall we? Victoria, thank you.

Speaker D: I think for me I would echo kind of Hannah and Nick's point in that for me it's not looking for a new model to put in place because I think if we shift from the funnel to a new marketing strategy that we want to adopt, we've probably then risked that same truth coming to fruition where we're probably going to oversimplify something again and then be in the same position position five years later. So for me it's not a shift to a different strategy or approach. Instead, it's, to Nick's point, a shift in mindset that we want to get towards. Where actually can we start questioning what is the data that we're putting in, uh, in the first place and put a bit more scrutiny in what are we starting with? And, um, building that strategy off of? And then where can we make sure, with the metrics that we're looking at off the back of that, that we've got a more holistic view of those metrics? So not trying to credit one metric to, uh, show the value of the whole campaign, but instead where we do have all of those different touch points and with those broader touch points, broader ways of measuring, how can we actually paint a better and stronger picture of the impact of media as well?

Speaker C: Fantastic. Well, thanks everybody for, uh, being with us this afternoon and sharing your thoughts and giving us your insights. Really appreciate it. And I hope everybody who's listened to the podcast finds that interesting and insightful and, and helpful, uh, for them as they move forward. So, again, thanks a lot, Nick. Enjoy the rest of your time in Stockholm, Vic. Enjoy. Enjoy. Milan M. When you get there and panic, I hope you enjoy having lots

Speaker A: of fun in Leeds.

Speaker C: Great, great stuff. Thanks a lot, everybody.

Speaker B: Well, there we are. Thanks very much, Richard. Um, and thank you to our guests today from today's bonus special bonus episode of the podcast. We'll speak to you again on Thursday for your regularly scheduled dose of other stuff from the drum podcast. Thanks very much. Goodbye.