46. Building Trust in Teams

Speaker A: Well, welcome back to the driven leadership podcast, everybody. It's the Conor and Eric show once again.

Speaker B: Today we had Mary. We had Mary briefly. And then freaking client comes in, swoops her away from us.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I guess things take more precedence, but, uh, it's okay. We're here, we're here to guide you on, um, a really interesting topic, one that has a lot of layers to it. We cover it in our fundamentals class briefly. I think it's part of our five behaviors training that we do as well. But today we're talking about trust, which can be.

Speaker B: You made it heavy right there.

Speaker A: An interesting, uh, concept. It could be something that's like, thrown around a lot from, from my own experiences on teams of, uh, what it is, how you define it, how you build it, how you grow it, how you live in it, uh, those things. So we are really here today to talk about how do you kind of both ends of the spectrum is kind of how I want to look at this, which is how do you create or build trust? And then what are some common ways that you've seen, Eric? Leaders also kill trust and kind of, ah, degrade trust on a team. Where do you think we should start with this? I think it's kind of apt to start by defining trust. Um, I don't know if we should go there or start somewhere else with this.

Speaker B: You know, we do this and, um, we talk about trust a little bit in bold in one segment, definitely, um, in forge throughout that, uh, and then, yeah, in our fundamentals classes it comes up. But it's the baseline for every great team. There's this, you know, take, uh, take five behaviors, which is training on five dysfunctions, which is Patrick Lencioni. Most people have heard of that one. His base level of that model is trust. But it's. It gets into how you define it because most people define TR like it's this football that they can throw around everybody, you know, Or I say like, it's like it's a noun and.

Speaker A: Right. Something.

Speaker B: So it's like, uh, yeah, so. So I trust Connor. I gave him the football. And it's like, now it's up to Connor as to whether we lose this football or not. And you know, uh, and it's. It's just the wrong way to look at it. But I think most of us are brought up that way. I trust this person. When I ask people in class, I go, so define trust. And people are like, man, I don't know how to do that because it's like, it's almost like an emotion or a feeling more than it is something tangible. And I love Stephen Covey's definition of trust. He doesn't, uh, speed of trust. I think it's Stephen Covey. Stephen Covey. It's a Covey book. Steven. Yeah, yeah, Covey somebody. Um, but he, uh, he calls it, uh, he, he's like, we are looking at character and competence and it just fits so well. We're just really good at evaluating character and competence. And it is happening in every single thing that we do. Every action in action, conversation, non conversation. And I always love the example. You know, we're running a meeting. It's like this collaborative, robust meeting. People are throwing ideas out, they're taking risks with their ideas, they're unafraid, they're in a trusting, safe environment, psychologically safe environment where everything's awesome. And you would say in that group, generally trust is higher and come enter, you know, somebody who's not in this circle. As a matter of fact, maybe they, maybe they do things that break trust and they walk in the room, they don't have to say a word and they just stand there with their arms crossed judging the group in some way. And you watch all the collaboration, creativity, risk taking, everything gets sucked right out of the room.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because the it really collaborative teams, really high level, trusting, high performing teams, it's not uh, uh, one person's off. I mean obviously it depends on the group size, but one person's off in most team sizes, 20 or less, then the trust is going to be decreased. All, all the psychological say all those things go away.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So trust is more of a verb. Trust is this consistent evaluation of character and competence. And it's pretty crazy because when, when we do it well, when it's happening, we're like, we feel it, we know it's an emotion. But it's really, as we're growing up, we are finely tuned at sensing whether somebody's trustworthy or not, whether they have the character that we're looking for, for whatever the task is, and they have the competence, the ability to pull it off. And when those two align, we typically say we have high trust. Well, we see character and we see competence more in high stress situations. So you can actually build trust a lot faster under stress or you can lose it a lot faster under stress.

Speaker A: Right, right.

Speaker B: So lots of places we can go with this. But for me, character competence, which, uh, I think we need to define character and competence, but the definition of character and competence, and then you get into five behaviors and Lincione's work and he defines it as authentic and vulnerable. And I agree with that as well. It's like we're evaluating character and competence and do we have the ability with this person, do we feel safe enough to be authentic and vulnerable with them? And then you go to Gallup's work and Google's work and they get into psychological safety, which is this version of trust that is authentic, vulnerable and more willing to take risks.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, and I know in Google's work and in the five behaviors Lencioni stuff, trust is uh, or psychological safety is the bottom, the base foundation of um, like a, ah, high performance team. Right. Is that the, is that the concept that both.

Speaker B: It's a functional team is, you know, he's got the five dysfunctions of a team. So a high functioning, high performing team. His, his Lincioni's work is, you know, trust on the bottom. And then we move up into conflict. Uh, which is where I probably define it more as um, healthy collaborative conversations. Like we're not always seeing eye to eye. So one of the things Connor, I mean I love working with you because we won't see eye to eye. Connor just goes, yeah, I don't see it that way. But it's not like there's never a threat between the two of us. I'm like, I see it this way. You're like, I see it that way. And then we just kind of talk and see each other's perspectives and it leads to something. But we do that because we've got trust in place that we can do it. I don't think there's some other agenda with you. There's no agenda with me. There's not an ego play, there's not a power play. It's just a conversation. So we can have conflict, but it's really about collaborating, seeing different points of view, being curious, all those things. Uh, then, then it moves up into commitment. In Lincione saying so, so now getting by and clarity, truly being committed to whatever it is we're going after, whether we agreed on it or not, we're walking out of this room side by side, committed. Then it gets to accountability because with trust and all these other things you can start to create accountability and then it has results. And the whole thing with Lincyoni is everybody's going after results and accountability, but they're not doing the work on trust and the other things underneath.

Speaker A: Yeah, um, well, I want to kind of move into, I mean my, my brain first goes into how do teams operate, you know, what's the result when there's not trust involved? But before we get to there, I do want to say like, how have you seen to be the best ways to uh, to build trust within a team if there's somebody out there listening that is like, okay, we as a company, we lack trust. Or maybe even just on like an executive team level. Uh, which is where I think it, it would have to start. Um, what are some actions, what are some ideas or what have you seen that's actually built trust and moved things in the right direction?

Speaker B: Yeah. So I'm gonna give you the short term answer and the long term answer. Right. So short term answer. To build trust we need to have as healthy, authentic, vulnerable conversations about whatever the issues are. That being said, uh, why I say that's a short term answer is because typically we do not have the pieces in place to be able to get those really robust, healthy, authentic conversations.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so it's a longer term uh, answer or play to be able to put all the cultural pieces in the relational pieces in than to be able to talk about the challenging things that are building or taking away trust. So, but the simple answer is how do you handle stress and pressure and if it's terribly you're hurting trust.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, it, it's like, it's like the leader that it's always gotta be my way. You're not building trust. You know, uh, what you're doing is you're building the people that stay, they're staying in a negotiated relationship of as long as I do what you tell me, I still have a job. Right, right, right. So we have a negotiated relationship. That's not trust. So quick, uh, ways to build trust are we have to talk about things we have to actually deal with. Hey, get curious with each other. Why do you see it this way? Why is it. But the problem with that and why, uh, I actually believe where we spend most of our time on work, when we talk about leadership, as we talk about building the skills for people to be able to build trust, you know, do you have the emotional intelligence to not get triggered to self manage to have the empathy, see it from their perspective, all the things and more stuff that are in there, do you have those skills and uh, working on those skills well enough so that when we're disagreeing, I can read. Well, Connor's actually pretty hot about this. This is pretty important to him. This isn't the time to escalate and to push on him harder. Do I have the ability to read that? See, it Recognize it, stay calm enough to have the analytical thought to produce the thing, you know?

Speaker A: So that's interesting because, uh, when. When you first say that, you know, about, like, having more vulnerable, uh, conversations, my first thought is like, well, but that it feels like a chicken or the egg situation is like, well, I need to build trust, but I need to have more vulnerable conversations. But I. But I can't do that because they don't trust me, and nobody else on the team trusts me. Um, but then. But it makes sense. Whenever you plug in, like, okay, doing the work to build emotional intelligence as, like, that's the. That is the pre qualifier here. To be able to have healthy, vulnerable conversations like that. That's the path that you need to go down in order to open up that door.

Speaker B: Watch this. Different conversation. Okay, so my goal. Low. I won't say low, but lower. Emotional intelligence going in to build trust. And I go in and go, connor, man, we. We don't really do well, and we need to. We need to build trust better. Um, so, like, can we start talking about stuff? Okay, well, yesterday, that also sounded like IQ is down low, too. But, yeah.

Speaker A: And I would say, well, yesterday you cussed me out in the parking lot when we were leaving, so I don't know if I could really.

Speaker B: I don't know if I feel like. Right. So. So let's. Let's go with that. Like, we cussed each other out. We've been in that space. Okay. A higher, emotionally intelligent conversation is, man, I screwed yesterday up so bad, Connor. And the way I approached it, the way I went about it, I don't even know if there's a place we can get to where we have a conversation. But I think you deserve something better from me. And, uh, I have things I need from you, too. But if you'd be willing to give it a shot, I think we could have a conversation that potentially just make it so we enjoy working around each other a little better. Something. I don't know.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Hey, but it.

Speaker A: You know what? Come have dinner with me and my wife tonight.

Speaker B: Yeah. No, that's not what you. You. If we just cuss each other out, you might sit on it and be like, yeah, whatever, dude. And you walk away, and I got to come at you again. I come at you again, and I got to drop the ego, which.

Speaker A: Which then is followed up, like what you were saying earlier when you were defining trust of, like, then. Then the character and competence comes into play, because then you either have the character to follow up on what you said and the competence is do it or you don't. And then, and then the trust is kind of built from there. So.

Speaker B: Yeah. Uh, I do also think, I think a lot of times when we give these examples of conversations with higher emotional intelligence, it actually sounds like tucking your tail between your legs and kind of just capitulating into whatever the situation is.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And that's, that's not, that's not actually. It, it is dropping the ego enough to truly look at. I mean, let's say I don't think I did anything. I'm correct in the argument that we're having. Okay.

Speaker A: Yeah. Right, right.

Speaker B: I'm right in every way. But we get in a heated conversation. I. Right away I handled something poorly because it escalated to that level. Even if all you did was yell at me the whole time, then something I did brought you to that state.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: You know, there's some piece of ownership I can take in there. And why is ownership important? Because it's an olive branch. So if I just walk into that same conversation where we just yelled at each other the other day and I don't take any ownership and I walk in and go, so you gonna talk about all the stuff you did wrong in that conversation yesterday?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, so I say this and at work I feel like it's easier. Cause there's a professional buffer and barrier. There's expectations that we're supposed to show up a certain way. And it's helpful in some cases to minimize the amount of high tense cussing each other out type conversations.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: But it really hurts us in a sense of authenticity because a lot of times we're just saying surface things to get through the conversation.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because we don't want to raise alarms, especially as we're going up and we're. We're having conflict above us. So navigating those conversations, still having them. Here's the crazy thing though. We navigate those conversations and we do it well and put effort into it. It builds trust because it shows character and it shows competence.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So character is. And we were going to find these. So. Um.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I, uh, use this on whatever class we were on fundamentals the other day. Right. So let's say Connor is. He's amazing at operations and running a site, which he is. And just doing that side of what he does for Driven. Okay. Let's also say I've ridden in the car with him and he is the worst driver on planet Earth.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Which he's not. But we're gonna go there. Okay. So Connor Is a poor driver in this scenario, really good at operations. So I trust him to run operations for the company, but I might not trust him to take my loved one down the street or my child or something like that and drive them. That is a competence issue. Okay. So competence can be overcome through training, through, um, experience, through sometimes even just conversation, awareness and things of that nature. We can tackle competence ones. It's an easier one to build trust with because Connor is a good human. He has good characteristics, and I value those characteristics. But let's flip it and let's say, I don't know Connor. We'll use somebody else because it doesn't fit Connor at all. But we've got another human being that just has poor characteristics from a standpoint of values that we might all see as important. You know, they're in there. And I'll give you. I'll give you one that I did this on a little segment the other day is, um, respect for people in meetings. So I've got somebody that. That I know that every time they show up for a meeting, they show up typically late. They're on their phone. It's, like, bouncing around all over the place. Half the time their camera's not on. Um, when they do show, and then you can tell they're, like, texting while they're on there. They're not. And, like, so the respect for whoever they're on the zoom, and it's everybody. It's not one person, everybody they're on the call with. So you look at that and you're like, gosh, I don't trust them to show up to the call. M. Effectively, first of all, do they have the competence? Possibly not. But the character issue that I see is they don't know how to show respect in certain situations. Yeah. So. So we're questioning character. Character gets harder because character we see as ingrained in the person. And for them to. Either it's either they change their character much harder or we change how we view their character. Meaning we're willing to admit maybe I. Maybe I misjudged them in the beginning. Maybe I saw it differently.

Speaker A: Have you seen people be able to adjust their character?

Speaker B: Yeah, there are people, uh, I don't actually know any of them. There are people who, for example, have cheated in a marriage, and then the marriage lasts and they stay true to each other, and they. They don't, as far as anybody knows, don't cheat. So. So is it possible to change some of these things?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. But usually we're talking about Everything from therapy to massive habit breaking to all these other things. It's not a simple thing. And it usually starts with, I want to change that character issue. And the reason they have the character issue is because it's either a survival mechanism, there's something in there. There's a reason that that character glitch. It could be character wise, just a different way of seeing it. In this example of the zoom call, this person truly doesn't get it. Like, they're not doing it out of disrespect. Their just value system is, I want to be efficient with my time and so I do five things at once. And they don't, they don't understand the empathy side of it or connect with that. They just don't have that skill.

Speaker A: Yeah. So anyway, okay, so character competence equals trust. Trust is being built. You can create it. I mean, obviously, like, with character, you think you would hope that you're hiring properly to, to have good people with character. Um, and then like you said, training and, and all those things can go into competence, uh, for, for somebody's role.

Speaker B: Um, ask a question. But I want to. The hiring for character I think we should address because.

Speaker A: Well, let's do it. Because I was about to pivot somewhere else. So I was just saying, like, you would imagine that people don't hire people with bad character traits through an interview process that should.

Speaker B: Usually character won't show up on the. Sometimes it does, but you're on interviews, we're looking for value. So base level things like, you know, do you steal? Uh, you know, do you do those things? Sure, I get it. But character is going to come up. You know, let's take. There's, um, a. There's some emergency at work and I'm the manager and I show up and I see the emergency taking place and I'm like, I don't know what to do. You figure it out and I run. Okay. And I get. You could say that's a competence issue, but there's a character flaw there. There's like, wait, you're the leader and you're running from the emergency and not solving it. You're not stepping into it. I don't trust that you're the right person that, that is going to handle the big moments. That's a character that becomes a character flaw. So it's not just these value things that are, that are kind of paid play values of integrity, honesty, you know, those things. Uh, I'm talking about really, um, how do we show up in moments that matter and do we do it like as a manager, are we doing it with care? Are we doing it with, um, maybe the, the character that's required there is efficiency. Am I doing it in an efficient way that produces the results whereafter maybe that branches into competency. But anyway, now that I've completely confused that, I just want to say values and character can be similar, but they're different.

Speaker A: Well, I was going to pivot into, you know, in your own experiences, seeing teams through, uh, you know, organizational development trainings that we've done, or just being a part of even, even athletic teams, because I think this would obviously show up there as well. So we've identified what the main problem is. Like. We know that trust can make or break a team. How does that, especially with low trust on a team, how is that manifesting? Like, what are some of the symptoms that show up when a team is operating with, uh, low trust?

Speaker B: There's a lot. So let's just start with the basics of we're not addressing any real issues. We're not talking about the real stuff. And a lot of times when we are talking about it, we're talking about it in, um, more, uh, like a fire hose type situation. It's like it kind of builds up and then it comes out in a rush or it's passive aggressive, or it's gossip. Like things aren't being dealt with. They're just kind of, uh, circulating, being talked about. And we talk about other people because we can't talk to them directly.

Speaker A: And so there's conversations that show up that's like, oh, yeah, this hasn't been working well for three months. And it's like, well, then why haven't anybody said anything about it? I was like, oh, well, I heard this person and this person, this person talking about how this thing is messed up. It's like, well, why isn't that being brought up? It's like those kind of conversations that happen.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Or showing that there's not a lot of trust going on. So.

Speaker B: And again, you get in the nuance of trust. It is like, can you have the real, vulnerable, authentic conversations? Do you feel safe enough to have them? Can you have conflict in a healthy way? So everything that is not these things starts to become the unhealthy stuff. We get into meetings, sit down, a meeting, and the manager goes, okay, what ideas you got on this? And you get crickets. Okay, now it's possible nobody has any thoughts or ideas. It is possible, but more than likely they don't feel safe enough. They don't there's not enough trust in the room to be able to voice

Speaker A: their opinion, the script going on in their head, because I've either heard about it or it's gone through my own head of. Well, I have this idea, but it's not even worth bringing up because they didn't listen last time.

Speaker B: Yeah. So what's our history? You know, crazy thing is, when you hire people the first time, when they walk in the door, they usually don't necessarily have high trust. They have high aspiration and engagement. And do we harness that, build the relationship and care, or do we shut that down and force into the professional box? And so when I'm sitting down with a new employee, the goal is one on one. We're going to get to know each other. We're going to be working together. You're a direct report, or I'm directly reporting to you. M. We're gonna know each other and I'm gonna have your back. Like, that's the way we got to get to. Because if we're going to work well together, I gotta really understand what it means to. To be in your corner. So I need to know about you. And if they're not like, I go, well, tell me what, what goals you have? What are you after? And they're like. And let's say they're like, well, I don't. I don't like to talk about my personal life. Okay, that's fine. I'm not gonna make them. Um, that's not where I'm at.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But I sure as heck am going to be in a space of like, going, okay, well, I want to get to know you. What will. What are you willing to share and where can we go? Because I want to support that person.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, and. And when you have that foundation, you can get somewhere. When it's not there, then it's really hard. So I, uh, I don't want to oversimplify it and go. These conversations, if they're happening, then we've got some trust. But it can be that simple. It really can.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And there's so many nuances to it. Like, there's so many little. I'm saying this, but I'm not saying this. Well, we're really tight and we all love each other, but we don't say all the hard things. Well, then you actually don't have trust. You have care.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I'm worried about, you know, whether I hurt their skin. We. You. You mentioned athletic teams. Um, we have all these women athletic teams that we've been involved with. And soccer and volleyball and, uh, golf, indoor volleyball, outdoor volleyball, tennis, all the golf. The. The, um, the women's teams. Often. Not all the time, but often they don't want to hurt each other's feelings. Like, they really are caring and sensitive. That's often what shows up. Sometimes not. Sometimes it's just hardcore in there, but usually that's what we're battling. And they're like. And they want to be liked at that age really bad. So they don't want to say something to upset you and not be liked and kind of be pushed out of the tribe or not be accepted. So therefore they don't say things. So you have these top, you know, five teams in the country, and they're going out and crushing it. And then when the pressure hits, they're not willing to say the things. They're not willing to create the accountability. They're not. What. They show up to practice and somebody's off and they're not holding the high. Accountability applies. Same thing as work. The difference is that in. In athletics, they only got like, three months, and then the whole team changes. Especially with nil and all the stuff. And the transfer portal.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So. So real. If you want to talk a real trust, it's. I am willing to have the tougher conversations and I have the emotional intelligence to do it in a way that we walk out of here and we're together.

Speaker A: Yeah. That's so interesting because, uh. And we've talked about this briefly before, but. And it's my own qualms with the, like, family dynamic in companies versus, like a team dynamic in companies. Uh, but I think that's exactly it. And I've never put that language behind it, but it's like in a. In a family dynamic, you. The culture is that you care about each other, but in doing that, there is innately this, like, buffer of, oh, well, I can't hold them accountable because it's going to. It's not going to feel good. I'm not gonna feel good. They're not gonna feel good. I care about them, so I don't really want to. I don't wanna make them feel bad. So I'm not gonna have that conversation until it's too late. Most of the time is how it goes. Or it's like, you know, that three months down the road and it's like, well, shit, now I have to talk about why they've been late 10 times and now it's really gonna be painful. Um, but, uh, yeah, I've Never put that kind of language behind it where like, care is like this cushion when real accountability and trust is something deeper than just caring for somebody.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I love how you just put that in the family dynamic. And I'm picturing. So, um, I have a friend who's. Their family is. I grew up on the east coast and my family was from up in Boston area. And a lot of New England families, they just kind of go at each other. Man. They're just kind of like. They walk in and you talk about they actually have high accountability.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But sometimes they do it very painfully. You know, they're like, you're still not putting the, uh, you're still not putting the bowl away. It's just like you were an idiot when you were five. You're still an idiot now when you're 20. You know, I mean, they say stuff like that and it gets. It's like this personal attack that goes on. So they all know they love each other and they got each other's back. And I would never want to take on a true Italian, New Yorker family. I don't know. Way like that family will die together. Like, they're in it together.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B: But is it true? Especially when you're lacing that over to high performance teams. They're probably the most dysfunctional thing on the planet because they're like ripping each other's to shreds internally.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, so there's companies like that. We've got a few clients like that that are like so tight to each other and they're brutal. I remember I was watching, uh, I think it was Netflix. Um, not watching Netflix. I was watching a, like a Tick Tock or something on Netflix. And they were talking about their culture, and that was their culture. Brutally honest feedback. And they just rip each other to shreds. And it worked. I mean, they produced some great results, yet they. Their churn was unbelievable. The people that could survive that environment was terrible. But then you go the other. The other side of this pendulum is extreme care. And so we care so much. It's all. Oh, you know, and then all the back gossip going on behind it because we don't have the, you know, and especially bigger teams, the clicks, the silos, all the things that come out of it. Because it's got. This is my actual group that I can say what I want to say here. Because we're talking about everybody else outside of this group.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And. But nobody's talking to each other because, oh, we don't want to Ruffle feathers. Well, I see that more in business, especially large business, get into some of these huge companies, and it's like, man, you can't. You got to be careful. You're walking around. You can't say the wrong thing in the wrong environment. People use things against you. Um, that's why a lot of times they don't talk about their personal life, because then there's judgment that's passed. It's not talked about, but it's talked about behind the scenes.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So it's tough. It is a tougher thing. But I still go back to the answer. Trust. Authentic, vulnerable. Real conversations. And they don't have to be. I'm gonna say it again. They don't have to be about when your arm fell off when you were 10. They don't have to be about your trauma. It could just be about, hey, you know, I'd really love just your feedback on how I can do something better. I want to get better. That's open, vulnerable, and it's a real conversation.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And you're trust. You're handing them the trust baton. When you do that, you're going, hey, I'm going to give you something. Don't shoot me, but give me some feedback.

Speaker A: Yeah. You know, I think, like, a lot of things that, uh, uh, we. I think we're just discovering that it all goes back to that emotional intelligence side of things. Where.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And we've. We've talked about it before, too. Where. Kind of going back to what you're saying about this is not having those conversations. Those. Those cleanup conversations, so to speak, uh, are not like putting your tail between your legs. And I've heard it said in some of the emotional, like the, uh, yeah, emotional intelligence conversations that the person with the highest or the most amount of EQ has the responsibility to meet the other person where they're at. So if you know that you're. You have more emotional intelligence than the other person, then it's your responsibility to handle that conversation in the way that, you know it needs to be handled, rather than, uh, you know, being vindicated of how it was handled on the. From the receiving party.

Speaker B: Years and years ago, I, uh, worked for a company that was teaching us. Mary and I both met there at this company, and we were. They were teaching us how to train. And one of their mottos which just really stuck with me is, what did I do to create that? And you think about, you're training a class, and especially some of the more challenging classes, and you're like that person Is crazy. Like you could easily go, it's that person.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And the reality is I'm facilitating the class and so I have to read where they're at, what's going on with them at such a level, to know where, uh, how to get through to them, how to work with them. And it changes the whole dynamic. If I'm a manager and I've got an employee that's having a rough response, well, I did things to create that. Whether I want to, uh, you know, whether I want to change them or not is up to me. And you know, whether I want to drop the ego enough to really evaluate, it's a whole different thing.

Speaker A: Right, that's what I was going to say.

Speaker B: But the truth is I've got some responsibility in what's happening right now.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so, um, so anyway, I say, what did you do to create that? And that's an emotionally intelligent conversation with yourself that's actually really hard to have a lot of times.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Um, it's even harder to have with somebody else. If we're training a new trainer and we'll go, hey, what'd you do to create that? And they're like, I didn't do anything. That person crazy. You know, but when we take full responsibility, no matter what goes on, it starts to really shift how we work. And how you talk about trust, what did I do that created a situation where this conversation is hard or we're not having it, or people aren't voicing their opinions, or, um, we're not producing, or we can't get to accountability because why, what did I do to create that? And then once you're clear on that, what can I do to change that?

Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. Well, last question. I don't want to leave before I ask you because I'm curious and if you don't have anything good, we'll just cut it out. Okay. Uh, have you seen what have you seen leaders do? That has killed trust pretty quickly.

Speaker B: Okay, so first thing, several things come to mind. First you're asking what have I personally seen? Yeah, so a lot of times I hear what went on afterwards. You know, they're like, hey, this happened at work for one of our clients. This happened. What do I do now? That's usually where I'm, I'm stepping in. Uh, but personally seen, it's. I've seen. Well, I've seen everything from. I was with one company years and years ago, and the CEO, uh, had his wife was working in the company and he had an affair with somebody else. Instant trust breaker for everybody.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Now I say that though. Anything that is, I say I am this.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: But my actions show I am this. Okay, that, that was an extreme example. But let's say I've seen, I've seen plenty of managers say I'm going to get that to you this afternoon.

Speaker A: Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: And that seems like a little thing. And then they don't get it to them. And then they get it to them the next day or two days later and they don't even go, they don't own it, they don't do anything. And then they do it again and again and again. So if it happens one time. Okay. And especially if you own it two, three times, no, it's gone. So it's actually more the little things that add up.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I'll take it one step further. Usually when that's showing up, they're not doing it with themselves. What do you mean? So, so like do you have trust with yourself when you say you're going to do something? Do you do it? Um, before this, I was cleaning, I think I got it all off. I was cleaning the paint off my hands because I'm painting.

Speaker A: I saw that. Okay. Yeah, right there.

Speaker B: No, it's good.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: I am, um, committed to, I've been painting, painting the house and I told Mary I would have it done today and she had the house cleaners coming in because she's losing her mind with all the crap everywhere. And so man, last night I didn't finish till 2 in the morning. But I didn't do that because part of it I did commit to Mary and we got all these people coming in and all this stuff. But the bigger commitment was to me. I, I, I'm like I said, I'm gonna follow through, I'm gonna get this done, I'm gonna keep going. It doesn't mean I always do that. Right. I fail at it too. But I'm just saying to me that was my personal integrity. Well, that, that is an example of doing it well. And of course I want to make it about me, but I just feel like that's what doesn't happen all over the place. Leaders say something or they express that this is going to happen, they don't fall through, they make excuses. And you do that.

Speaker A: Every manager is too busy.

Speaker B: Yeah, you do that enough, you're done. If I said to you, Connor, I'm gonna, we're going to the gym at 5am tomorrow. Okay. And I know show.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Okay. And then I Call you up at like, 8. And I'm like, oh, my God, my alarm didn't go off. I. I'm so sorry. I'm there tomorrow. Are you giving me a second chance?

Speaker A: I would give you a second chance.

Speaker B: Okay, all right, so second chance after this?

Speaker A: After the second chance.

Speaker B: Well, hold on, hold on, hold on. Let's see, let's see, let's see. Second time, 5am I'm a no show.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Okay. I call you up and I go, oh, my God, Connor, last night, late, uh, at night, I stubbed my toe and I had to go to the hospital. Okay, you give me a third chance?

Speaker A: I would. Honestly, my response would be like, yeah, no worries, man. Just let me know if you ever want to do it again. I'll be there.

Speaker B: I want to. Tomorrow morning, I'm in. Okay, so you give me a third chance.

Speaker A: I.

Speaker B: This is.

Speaker A: I don't know what this color is.

Speaker B: Like, I don't know if I like

Speaker A: my conflict style, but I would be like, look, I'm not planning on you being there. I don't think you're going to show up, but I will be there. You do whatever you feel led to do.

Speaker B: That's about not wanting to be wrong or duped. But, uh, so. So the thing is, we have this line, and all of us have it. Some people, third, fourth time.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I mean, that's very rare.

Speaker A: People have a long leash on and stuff like that.

Speaker B: Yeah. Sometimes it's the first time, and it depends. And those people, a lot of times, they're like, okay, I've seen too many people break their promises so they don't fall through. So, um. I'm just saying we all have that. Well, we have it with ourselves, too. And so when we're not. When we're breaking trust with ourself, you don't do something three times in a row. Well, you've proven we're not going to do it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so if we do that, what happens is it starts to trickle out on other people and we start to fall through with commitments. Managers are busy people. My suggestion is, if you can't hit your commitments, stop making so many commitments, back it down. I'm serious.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And you're like, I can't. The job demands it. Well, I hear that, but let's answer honestly. I will get you that report on Wednesday, and I'm gonna bust my butt to get it to you earlier. Yeah, cool. You're fired. Okay, fine. But I mean, I mean, these are so. That's not a fair situation. If you're in it.

Speaker A: But no, but I mean, I think it goes back to the point you were making at the beginning of, like, trust not being is something that you can pass around to people. Where it is, like, it is a verb. It happens in the day to day minutiae. Showing up to meetings on time, delivering projects on time. You know, like, all of that. That really is where the rubber meets the road with trust. Um, you know, and then you have the larger moments, of course, of like, yeah, you know, I'll. I'll, um. I don't even know. Ah. An example of a larger trust that's more of like a. How personally people attribute. What's a larger moment of trust versus a smaller moment of trust? Like, yeah, I'll come pick you up in the airport. That's probably a larger moment, but just

Speaker B: have one of these. So client, uh, had a death in the family same time as a major project was due. And they called up their manager and was like, I know how important this project is, but I need to be here for my mom or for whoever it was. And that manager said, well, we will pick up the slack. We'll figure this out. I may have to call you and text you to get information, but you go be with your family. You want to talk about instant character building trust?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: They have character, they care, they support me in these big moments. That's a big moment. That's one that will go a long way.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, and not. Not to just do it for trust. They did it because that's the person they are.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Changes the game. How do we show up in those moments? They're big for the person outside of us. That's the big moment. It's big to them.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Cool. All right, well, I think we've nailed that. I think people can go out there after listening to this episode and just, uh, trust people.

Speaker B: Yeah. There's absolute perfection. I don't think we even talked about how to actually trust people. But that's, um, that's done with years of counseling. Good luck with that. But.

Speaker A: Oh, God, it took me a minute to figure out what you're saying. Like, what do you mean? It's like, oh, okay. Yeah. Well, yeah. Uh, if you can't fundamentally trust people, I don't know, take our fundamentals class. No, no. You need m something.

Speaker B: Maybe bold. Bold might help. But then you won't trust us enough to go to bold because we don't tell you anything.

Speaker A: So we'll give you a counselor recommendation.

Speaker B: Yeah,

Speaker A: uh, well, thanks for listening, everybody. If you have any questions or if you, uh, need to just talk through your own trust issues, don't call me. On your team, in your company, don't call me. You can call Eric directly. Here's his phone number. Um, no, really. I mean, like I said, we cover a lot of this stuff, especially the emotional intelligence stuff in our fundamentals class. And that's why we just finished one, uh, last week, and this trust thing came up because you apply everything you learned in fundamentals, and then you can build trust on your team. So, uh, well, cool. Well, thanks for listening. Thanks, Eric, for chatting to us. And we'll see you next, uh, week, everybody.

Speaker B: Yeah. Bye.