47. From Doers to Leaders: Avoiding Micromanagement

Host: Welcome back to the Driven Leadership podcast. I can't do that because then it's gonna compete with the actual. It's fine. People don't care. Um, music.

Eric: I thought you had music.

Host: I mean the music's going. You can hear it, right? You can't hear it. It's just it, it's post. It's a post thing. It's the magic. Lol. Uh, welcome back everybody. We got a cool topic today, one that's been top of mind with just some, with, with companies that we've been dealing with recently looking for, in having pain points of new managers coming into positions. And whether that be a, a plan, a well planned transition or a, hey, we need somebody to fill this spot. Jim Bob's been a great employee. I think he could be a good manager. And in either case, um, we've seen this pain point come up with with new managers getting into the positions and just learning the do's and don'ts. And one of those, uh, big pieces that I've specifically seen kind of brought up in the past few weeks is that of micromanaging. Uh, and so what we're talking about is really that transition from being a decent, a high performing employee, a doer of things, and that's your metric, to then managing a doer, other doers and not not taking that on yourself. Um, which, you know, people translate to working on the business, not in the business. There's all those sayings and phrases you can put on it. But that's, that's the, that's what we're looking at today is new managers, how to train, coach, um, and, and help them avoid the pitfalls of becoming a micromanager in their new role. So, yeah, um, so with that kind of, that foundation laid, what are your, what are your first thoughts when you hear, um, of micromanaging or just new managers in general learning skills like this?

Eric: Yeah, no, I, I mean I see it all the time. It's, it's a new manager comes in, they usually fall to one side of this coin. It's either micromanagement, which is excessive control kind of in the middle of everything, everything's got to be perfect and right and all of that. Or they have this complete laissez faire kind of mindset and they're like, they don't want to deal with confrontation. You just do whatever you want.

Host: Yeah.

Eric: You know, and, and they're kind of, and the. I don't even think great managers necessarily walk the middle of this. Sometimes you need to, but you need to act It's a range that we need to know the situation and where to apply it. There are times that micromanagement are required, especially maybe it's an emergency, maybe there's something really important and you got involved multiple people, but you got to see it done. There's, there's times where it could have value. Yeah, um, but, but usually where when we're talking about a new manager, they're coming in and it's because of a laugh, lack of experience, a lack of understanding, and they go to over control to over get in there and they don't understand. It's a pretty complex mechanism to be able to get to where people are functioning without also being controlled into it. Because you got to have good communication, you got to build trust, you got to work with all the things that we've talked about, all the other podcasts, but the, um, uh, pull this mic up so you can probably hear me better. But the, the interesting thing is most new managers will lean towards more control. And uh, I can generalize and say it's because, uh, they feel if they control it, they can get the outcome. Yeah.

Host: Which makes sense because that's, that's what they've come from. And especially in cases of getting thrown into leadership with minimal training or support, I mean it makes, you're going to lean back on what you know. And a lot of high performers just know to control. They know, they know how to get results.

Eric: I also think a lot of people don't get into management because they think that's what management is. You know, they think that management is about controlling those people that I work with. And great management's really not a whole lot about control. There's control in there, but it's much more about empowering people to take action, especially in the expert field that they're doing. But it's also a way of creating accountability and ownership and all these different things because they can't create that with the other person because they may lack the skill or haven't had the time or whatever's going on. And so they're like, well, I don't know that they're owning this. And I don't know if they're going to follow through and do it the way I want it to. Let me just, just make sure, Let me just kind of be in the middle of it the whole time.

Host: Yeah, well, and I mean it, for me, I've, I've absolutely fallen into this trap. And the reason this came up is we've been doing one of our, our 360 diagnostics with the company. And, um, and it was brought up that, that new managers are put into positions and without, without the skills and training that we've mentioned, we. Whenever things get busy and things start to fall between the cracks. I mean, really. You mentioned it. The heart of this conversation really is about accountability, just as is, ah, about micromanagement. But as things start to fall between the cracks, that manager who's supposed to hold people accountable and use that as the mechanism of getting things done, they then step back into that role of, well, I know how to do it, so I'm just going to do it to make it easier for everybody. And I've absolutely fallen into that in years past. Being a new manager, going through that mindset and then three months in, four, six months in, it's like, I can't keep this up. Or you tell yourself I'm not a good manager and really you're just burning yourself out because you don't know how to, you don't know how to do it. You don't know. You don't understand that piece of it.

Eric: Yeah, well, it's, I just think it's common. I, uh, you know, I, I, it's funny, we were coming into this and I'm like, gosh, I don't even know if I'm the right one to talk to this. I see this all the time. But I'm kind of the, I'm probably more the laissez faire is I'll like, throw it out there and go get it. I don't want to be in the middle of it. You do it. I've never been great at being a doer, but Mary, on the other side, Mary is, uh, Mary's a terrible manager.

Host: And, and well, and for anybody who's maybe this is their first time listening, uh, yes, Mary is Eric's wife. And yes, he's talking. He said that before while she's on the podcast. It's not a, uh, it's not an unknown, but, but it's.

Eric: Yeah, if she were here, I would say she would own it too.

Host: Yeah. Yeah. What's cool is teaching you a favor there.

Eric: Yeah, thanks, man. Keep me off the couch. She is. I remember years and years ago, Mary and I met at a, uh, leadership, uh, development company, and I happened to be her manager for a stint. That was in there, right? And in there we came up, it was a bunch of individual salespeople. She was on a sales floor and she was awesome. She crushed it at sales. And we were like, man, we've got these few select amazing salespeople. Let's give them some support so they can expand their books and kind of build a little team underneath them that is handling some of the lower level clients and different things. And they just got to kind of work with that team a little bit, but they can focus on the bigger clients. So it was brilliant plan to take our top salespeople and expand it into more clients because they were at capacity and man, you want to talk about a big mistake that was so bad because you ah, had these uh, individual contributors that were really kind of lone horse, lone wolf, whatever you want to call it, type salespeople.

Host: Yeah.

Eric: And now we put them in a management role and I think it was about 75% of them were God awful at managing people, which is hilarious.

Host: You're working at a leadership company.

Eric: Oh, but here's the thing. Yeah, for sure, you know, leadership management may be a little bit different, but the salespeople weren't necessarily leadership experts. They were, they were doing sales.

Host: Yeah, but that's, that's fair. Yeah, yeah.

Eric: Um, but, but on the. So, so I, I still remember I was having a conversation with her and I'm like, I'm like, so just delegate that stuff off your plate. And she's like, well, how do I know it gets done?

Host: Mhm.

Eric: And I'm like, you just said you maybe you can do it through meetings or you can just have it on the spreadsheet like the rest of everybody else. Like there's systems for how to do this and it's pretty simple and easy. And she's like, nah, I got to do it. That's the way it is. And so uh, but she was always brought up in the mindset of I got to do it and make sure it's right. And there's a lot of people like that. It's like the doers, they get in there, they need the control, they need all that stuff. I mean she completely, I mean she teaches management for those out there. She's actually quite good at it. Teaching it.

Host: Yeah.

Eric: But the doing of it, the behavior of it. She has this kind of, I got to get involved. Um, yeah, got another company, uh, that we work with and they've got a new manager and we're dealing with some of this that's going on in there. And it's um, the girl really wants to be able to delegate and get things off her plate and um, not be micromanaging. But she's so terrified that if it doesn't get done, the Right way that it's going to reflect poorly on her because the pressure from above her is. And by the way, the pressure from above her is not like you got to have this perfect, you got to do all that. But she just wants to perform in this new role. So you know so much that everything's perfect and everything's right. Yeah, she's driving herself crazy. She's working like 12, 12, 13 hours. She's burning herself out getting in there and she's in the middle of everything. And what she's teaching all our people is, hey, I don't have to really work that hard because you're going to do it for me.

Host: Yeah, it, um, creates this weird relationship where I am your manager, but I'm also your safety net. And there's some level of that that's okay. A manager, you should be able to go to them, rely on things if things aren't going well. But they can't be you, you can't be this Superman. Mid level managers should not be filling the role of Superman or Superwoman. Supergirl. I don't know what the Nick character is, but to swoop in and help save the day and then function like that, it's not going to work out well for anybody. Um, so my question is, as we get into this, if we're speaking directly to, I think this is the lens that I look at it. If you're talking directly to new managers, um, who may be listening and they don't have somebody to help coach and develop this skill for them. What are skills or processes that you've seen that help build, uh, this muscle of being able to, to delegate and to hold people accountable with the specific intention of avoiding the micromanagement of it all.

Eric: Well, okay, so we'll talk about two things here. One is the emotional side of this and one is the process side of it. Okay, so I think we start with the process side because I think that's the easier one. Okay, so there's plenty of ways, um, there's plenty of ways to create simple processes to be able to do this. Typically it's, it's about how well do we state the expectations, um, how well do we plan the meetings and the check ins. You can still be involved, but not overly involved. You're more checking in and supporting your team versus being involved in it. It's actually quite simple to not micromanage.

Host: Yeah.

Eric: Okay, so, um, I don't want to spend a crazy amount of time on process, um, because there's a million things on the Internet but one that's easy is like the Eisenhower, uh, matrix. And it's uh, just some cubes or what's urgent, what's, what's important. And you're just kind of evaluating those and you want to live in the things that you're doing. Is this, this box over here on, on the right. That is important but not urgent.

Host: Yeah.

Eric: And you want, um, in the top box. It's important and it's urgent. That's an emergency. Yes. You're involved with that, but you want very few things that fall in there. And a lot of managers are managing from the emergency category every day.

Host: Yeah.

Eric: Right. So when you're in that, that's why this conversation starts to get complex. If we're just being simple, I'm a new manager and I need to let go of control a little bit and kind of ease my way out. You can practice that and do that through just kind of paying attention to it and working on it. It's not easy, but you can start to do it. And there's, there's many ways to do that. But the, uh, the, the reality is you get into a culture, let's say you're in a business and it's like everything's a fire, you know, everything's last minute. It's, it's knee jerk reactions and decisions. It's poor communication coming from above. And probably poor communication is going from below. And you're kind of in here and you get thrown in as a middle manager and thrown to the wolves. And I'd love to tell you that is a really rare situation, but I'm not exaggerating. I, I probably say that's 50, 60% of mid level management. I mean, it just feels that way anyway, so, so that's where we uh, if we take, say the majority of people are kind of in that environment. So now you're like, holy shit, if that falls, I'm screwing that up and I'm doing that. Like all this stuff starts to spiral. They're staying up late at night, they're doing all that's going on. So to get to where we're not micromanaging, we've got to get some level of stability going on in our life and in our work. So we got to move them from the emergency column over into the other column. To do that, we got to get ahead of them. So we got to be looking at things like, okay, this problem repeats every third week. I've got a plan for next time that somebody else is taking that off my plate because I know it's coming if that's possible. And we start planning into the emergency to start looking forward. So if we can look forward, we can start to delegate. And then we start to delegate and then you're dealing with emergencies and they're delegating. You also need to plan a few check ins that are going with it just so that you feel secure and confident that it's going well. And when it's not going well, that's when you can step in a little bit more.

Host: Yeah.

Eric: However, preferably your step in is about coaching, but you can't get to coaching if you're in an emergency state.

Host: Right, right, right.

Eric: So, so I guess first thing is you got to get out of the I'm drowning out of the emergency state and some of you are gonna go, well, I just can't do that.

Host: Okay, I hear you well and uh, I've heard it and I've been there where it's like the biggest hurdle to do that is time to. Where in order to do that you have to sacrifice time. If you think that time is, is the, the one commodity you can't give up. It's, it's like this vicious cycle where it's like, well in order to do that I need to delegate time to it, but I don't have time to it. So I'm not going to ever do it. I'm just gonna stay stuck. And so there is a, there is a push that you have to make to get out of that cycle and that push requires time. But three months from now it's going to be worth it. You know, every bit of that stress and time that you put into it completely.

Eric: But uh, everything we just talked about to me is more the process side.

Host: Yeah. A hundred percent.

Eric: Okay. Now we'll go emotional. Emotional side.

Host: Yeah.

Eric: So let's say you're somebody who trust is hard.

Host: Mhm.

Eric: You just don't, you don't really necessarily see in people that they either do what they say, they're not competent in what they do. Maybe their value system is different. They're going to prioritize it differently. They're going to look at it through a different lens and you believe that's going to compromise whatever's going on. And so because trust is connected to character and competence.

Host: Yeah.

Eric: And so when we're in that space and I've got a team, I've built a team or I'm, I'm um, um, new leader on top of a team that's, I don't know them that well, yeah, to get to where you can not micromanage is actually the path is more through building trust with them.

Host: Yeah.

Eric: So trust. Do I believe they're the type of person that wants to do a good job, that thinks outside themselves as a similar value system for whatever it is that we're connected to, and do I think they have the competence? Okay. So if the value system's there, we got something to work with. Uh, generally speaking, you know, the values are pretty aligned.

Host: Yeah.

Eric: Obviously, if you got somebody in there that you completely distrust that, you know, steals from the company or whatever, that, well, they shouldn't be there, that's a different path. All right, so if we can get the character, uh, side of this to work on trust, the competency side is where a lot of people get hung up. They go, well, they don't do it like me.

Host: Yeah.

Eric: So what you're really dealing with is a training issue.

Host: Okay.

Eric: And so what you're saying is you're not good enough at teaching people that you get frustrated because they want. There's some nuance or whatever's going on. And so you've got to work on how. How do you. How do you teach, how do you work with others? And also, where's your bar of expectation? Like, they aren't you. They need to have some autonomy in what they're doing. If it's slightly different, are you okay with that? And can you be okay with that? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. You know, if we're. If we're doing neurosurgery, probably shouldn't have a whole lot of, uh, you know, doing it differently. But when we're, like, doing customer service and we're just. We're looking for the right attitude in there, and, yeah, you might have different words and say it better and all those type of things, however they're gonna. There's a learning cycle to go on. And as long as they're not burning the client, I can usually work with that from that place, you know, so, um, so to. To deal with the emotional side, you gotta get to trust. To get to trust, you've gotta have. You gotta kind of evaluate where they are and where's your problem. And then once you understand that, then you start to work on the problem. And if the trust is. Maybe you don't know them that well, a lot of times that's going to require you to be more vulnerable with them. But you're a new manager and you don't know where that line is. So, uh, all these problems that go with it.

Host: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I even think that's applicable to people who may go through internal promotions. And you are a part of a team now. You're leading the team. And depending on how that transition goes and how messy it is, um, there. There could be trust issues just getting to that position for people that, you know and that were once your peers. But I think. I think the same principles apply where as long as you make the effort and time and energy to. To correct that and to. To build that back up, then that's where you'll. You'll be able to have success in it.

Eric: Yeah. You know, it's, um. It's. I think the first step to not micromanaging. Okay. The first step is to be aware that you are.

Host: Yeah.

Eric: Okay.

Host: Do you think micromanagers are aware that they are.

Eric: I don't think most of them are. Most of them think they are doing what they're supposed to be doing. And so. And it's also a little bit of the perception of the other person, because some people are sitting there and they're like, no, I like you in the middle of this. Get in here. And they want it. Yeah. M. But the people that are like, man, they're a micromanager. They're in the middle of it. They a lot of times don't say that back to their. To their boss. Instead, they kind of keep it to themselves and they go gossip to everybody else. They're like, are they. Are they in your stuff? The level? They're in my stuff.

Host: Yeah.

Eric: You know, it's like, how do you work with this and what do you do? And then it's just a lot of frustration. Then you get disengagement. They don't know what's going on. So it's, um.

Host: Then they're micromanaging even more.

Eric: Yeah. And then they micromanage more because I'm not getting results. To get in there more and more. And then it just repels. Yeah. I think, you know, uh, talk, uh, about the ideal situation for a new manager to come in has always been, to me, is that they come in and they do a lot of watching and a lot of listening for several weeks. They ask a lot of questions and do very little telling. And that's like sunshine, rainbows, and unicorns for most people. They walk in and they're like, wait, it's a natural disaster in here. I've got to take control. I've got to do this stuff. Yeah. And. And maybe you do. Maybe you do. In some cases, you do need to do that. But in a lot of cases, it's been a natural disaster for the last six months. What's another couple of weeks? And, uh, uh, me, I go to my boss and I go, look, this is how I'm starting. I'm going to start and I'm going to ask questions, I'm going to listen, I'm going to get curious. I need to understand why it's where it is before I go in and just start dictating to everybody and getting in the middle of it and pushing everybody around.

Host: Yeah.

Eric: And if they're like, yeah, I hear you, but you got to fix this in the next two days, well, then you got to fix that in the next two days. But outside of that, we're kind of setting the groundwork. I think that alone for a new manager is really hard. Coming in and going, hey, I know this is the right way to do. This is the way I want to start this. And kind, uh, of setting the expectations up so that you can gain the expectation down to do what you need to do.

Host: Yeah, yeah. I'll say for me, um, in, I've talked about my, my past, the Chick fil a before, that's where I mostly dealt with, uh, this issue in some other places as well. Uh, but even in those places, in like more, you know, corporate world, um, my, the advice that was given to me and what I ended up doing that worked phenomenally was just bringing somebody alongside what I was doing. So you're in, in that way you're kind of embracing like, okay, I believe that I'm doing this the best possible way. Um, for the sake of my, my ego. I am the only one who knows how to do this 100% correctly. Let's say you're, you're there. Well, then in order to fix that, I can't just step away. That's not realistic. So in order for me to be able to step away, I need to bring somebody else next to me and just let them watch me do it. And then the next day I'm asking the questions about what they see, kind of like what you were saying. And then the next day I'm like, hey, how about you, you give it a go now and then they're doing it and then I'm coaching them on how to do it and adjusting how they're, they're going through it and it's that side by side approach. And then, you know, theoretically, in that made up scenario of like there being a, uh, singular task that you're doing within a week, that person could be functioning at 80% of your hundred percent, which is a pretty good place to be. And then over the subsequent weeks, there's. You don't just drop them and be like, all right, cool. Let me know how it goes. At the end of the year, you. You stay coaching, and then you progress, and then you show them something else. And it's that progression that will. That will move you out of that doing mode into coaching mode, which is kind of in my mind in that time is that kind of. It was the end goal. Like, I need to be more of a coach in the business, not a doer. And that. That way always, really always worked out. Um, even if it worked out in the way of, oh, this person that I'm coaching, they don't have the competence I thought they did. Let me. Let me move them to another task that they can do or, uh, whatever else ended up happening.

Eric: So, um, and the way you discuss, I guess I picture. So you're there in Chick Fil A and you're working with that, but it's a repeatable pattern. It's like, make the sandwich or ring this person out this way. Or it's like this thing that's pretty much the same each time, right?

Host: Yeah. Yeah.

Eric: And so get it that. I feel like that's exactly it. That works great. And you can. You kind of duplicate yourself all over the place. And then I go back to the customer service. I feel like if you're working with customer service, because it's coming at you from a hundred different ways, and you've got to think. Think and produce a different kind of response each time, that's where I see more of the micromanagement, because people just kind of hop in is like, the way you think doesn't work, you know?

Host: Yeah.

Eric: And, um. And so. And so then they're like, well, I can't teach them how to think. I don't know how to do that. And.

Host: And.

Eric: But I think it's similar to what you just said. I think you're coaching.

Host: Yeah.

Eric: You know, it's. It's kind of like they do. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry.

Host: No, I was gonna say it. It's a lot. It's a lot more complicated, but it is. You can. You can still achieve this. The same result. Um, and even. Oh, man, I don't know, maybe find out that you weren't doing it 100% and there they're doing it better than you. Yeah.

Eric: I feel like that happens a lot.

Host: Yeah.

Eric: You know, uh, because we've been doing it. We know this way works. And then they go and do it a different way and it works better.

Host: And they ask a question. We're like, well, why haven't you done that?

Eric: Like, and you're like, shut up.

Host: You're not, you're not right.

Eric: You're wrong.

Host: Let me find something.

Eric: Don't talk to me. Exactly.

Host: I say, first of all, I don't know who you think you are.

Eric: I don't know who you think you are. I am your super for five months. You got here, what, last week? It's real.

Host: That's so funny. Um, yeah, I think we've covered a good bit of ground because really, at the end of the day, I think you kind of said at the top, like, unfortunately for people who've been stuck as micromanagers, it's not that hard to get out of it on paper. Like, the plan is not that hard. It's a one, two, three, boom, boom, boom. These are the things you need to do to move out of it. But the, the, the executing on that plan is where people get stuck and then you keep. You rubber band back to, to old habits. Um, but I think we have this great class.

Eric: Self sabotage connects right into this. Just saying.

Host: That is true. That is very true. Um, but, but the beauty of it too. And I'm, and I'm honestly thinking about the other classes of like, the, the fundamentals and all the other foundational pieces that we teach with managers. It's hard to, to progress and grow as a leader in managing other people, leading other people when you're stuck in the weeds. Yeah, it's. It's very, very difficult to, to grow your emotional intelligence and your trust within the team if your door is closed every day and your inbox is at 100 every day and you're exhausted and just burning yourself out. So the, what's. What really shifted me back in the day with, with things like this is like, as a leader, I owe it to my team to set down this micromanagement piece. Like, they, I need to grow them. They need. They, they help grow me. It's this, like, symbiotic relationship. Um, and it's super rewarding. So very difficult, but it is rewarding.

Eric: I, I do think, um, especially those that are in larger companies having a role model on this. Pick somebody out that's really good and you kind of, you want, you want to copy, you want to see what they're doing and start and, and also go, go ask some questions. Go, how'd you get here? How'd you, how did you land doing it this way versus the way I'm doing it.

Host: Yeah. And, um, you seem relaxed when you walk in every day. Yeah. Tell me more about that.

Eric: You're okay when they screwed that up. Why are you okay with that?

Host: You know?

Eric: And maybe that's a good or bad thing. I don't know. But, um. Anyway. Yeah, no role models really help with things like this. I just. I. I always picture when people talk about micromanagement. I know, wrapping it up here. But, uh, I have this picture. So it was in. I was in first grade. Okay, first grade.

Host: Whoa. Okay.

Eric: Okay. First grade. And the teacher gave people the ability to be the teacher for, like, 10 minutes or so. I don't know how long it was.

Host: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eric: So. And I still remember because I. I felt so powerful being the teacher, you know, and everybody was writing something is all I remember. Everybody's writing something, but for me, being the teacher, I went and I grabbed a ruler and I walked up and down the aisles and smacked my hand like. Like, I was like the German army, Nazis or whatever. Do your work. You know, it was kind of what I did. And I. I've always pictured that. And I'm like, okay, that's excessive control. You know, all the things, like, I'm in your stuff. But I think it comes from the same place. It's like this. There's also an authority. There's a significance to it. There's this importance to it of, like.

Host: Yeah.

Eric: And granted, hopefully, you're not walking up and down the cubicle slapping a ruler in your hand, but that's what people are feeling when we're jumping into spaces where they've got it and they've got the responsibility and they're going to make it happen. And most people want that responsibility so they can prove themselves. And when you get in to micromanage it, it becomes about us.

Host: Yeah.

Eric: And so anyway, uh, don't be. Don't be. Don't be the dude walking up and down the aisle with the ruler. Don't do that. It's back.

Host: Yeah. I think that's pretty sound advice.

Eric: Got it.

Host: Take away everything from this episode. Don't be a Catholic school teacher with your.

Eric: Yeah, you made it religious. I went Nazi. So, hey, we're doing it.

Host: We're nailing it. Did that work? Did you. Did you, uh. Did you hit any other kids?

Eric: I didn't. I did, apparently. I don't remember hitting anybody. I just remember hitting myself with the ruler and walking up and down. I felt really powerful. That's What I remember. So, you know, I'm in charge.

Host: Gosh, that explains.

Eric: By the way, my first grade teacher never walked up and down the aisle with a ruler. So that's my perception.

Host: 1. It was one that you completely took control of. Yeah. And you're like, this is what she should be doing.

Eric: Yes. We all, We. We all knew I was trouble from that moment on.

Host: But that's. That's why everybody at Driven calls you Eric the Enforcer. That.

Eric: That is not true. That is not true.

Host: Well, thanks for listening, everybody. Uh, if you want to learn more about how to take utter control of your company, reach out to ericleadership.com utter control?

Eric: Is that like control of your utters

Host: or is that, um, complete and total dominance? Uh, we have a class for that.

Eric: Yeah.

Host: How funny would that be?

Eric: They'll walk in, I give them a ruler.

Host: No, if you want to do the opposite, and if you want to build empowered teams that are inspired by your true God given authority, uh, in leadership, I'm not. I'm just ruining it. We do have genuine classes that help you out. Uh, whether it's self sabotage or just the fundamentals of leadership. We got your back. Let us know. Uh, otherwise, we appreciate you guys listening. Share this with that new manager, uh, whether they're above you or below you on the corporate ladder.

Eric: Share this episode Send this podcast to your your. Who you report to. Hey, you need to watch this. That'll go over well. That's the way to do it.

Host: Yeah, perfect. We've solved it for you. Just send them this episode. Well, thanks, Eric, for chatting through this. Uh, we'll see you guys next week.

Eric: Bye, everybody.