Psychological Safety and Why is it Essential for an Inclusive Workplace, with Sacha Thompson

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Speaker A: Sasha Thompson, welcome to the conversation today.

Speaker B: Thank you for having me, John.

Speaker A: It, uh, is a pleasure to be with you. You're joining us from Maryland, I'm south of Salt Lake City in Utah. And today we're going to be talking about psychological safety and creating an inclusive workplace and really how the two go hand in hand. And it's an interesting time, uh, for the conversations around inclusion, um, diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging, uh, has become a heavily politicized kind of, um, set of terms, uh, which I find incredibly unfortunate. It's a really interesting time for organizations, for employees, for those who do the work of dei, um, as consulting, as consultants or within organizations, um, yet the need and the importance of it all remains. And regardless of someone's political background, uh, and political leanings, maybe you, you feel like, you know, DEI has become a dirty word or whatever. I think pretty much everyone can agree that we want safe workplaces where everyone feels needed, wanted, valued, that they have opportunities to contribute in meaningful ways each and every day. We want people to be treated fairly with dignity and respect. I think pretty much everyone agrees with that, um, even though some people disagree with terms and whatever. Um, and so the question then is, well, how do, how do we get

Speaker B: past

Speaker A: within this moment of the polarization, how do we get past that to have good conversations, to move the work forward, um, so that we can create more inclusive workplaces where everyone can thrive. And that's really the goal. So this is all what we're going to be exploring and discussing together today. As we started, I just wanted to share a brief bio for Sasha. Sasha Thompson is the visionary founder behind the Equity Equation, a prestigious consultancy dedicated to fostering inclusive cultures based on the vibrant Washington, D.C. area. Uh, Sasha brings over two decades of diverse experience spanning the education, nonprofit, and tech sectors to empower her clients. Uh, there is so much I could share about your background, Sasha, but I'm going to pause there. Anything you would like to highlight, either about your professional background or just your personal background, to lay the kind of the context for this conversation?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think a big part. First of all, thank you for having me again. Um, a big part that I think is so important is that a lot of the work that I've done over the past few years has focused on psychological safety and how to create psychological safety within the workplace. Um, and I'm also a certified coach, so not only am I a facilitator and do consulting work, but I see my purpose is also providing people with the tools so that they have the skill set so that they don't need me. Right. Like, I'm giving you everything that you need so that you can be successful. And so how do I coach people, um, to do that? And so this is not about one and done checking the box, but this is how do you embody this work so that it becomes a part of who you are and then ultimately a part of your.

Speaker A: Yeah, I appreciate all of that, and I think coaching is really, really important in the space, especially when folks don't know how to have the conversations. Um, and so there's, There's. There's definitional work and just, like, knowledge work that needs to be done. Um, but more importantly than that, there is, you know, interpersonal and communication, uh, coaching that often needs to happen just so people can, can productively, uh, converse around and work on these sorts of issues. Um, and I want to also, like, the very first thing that pops into my head when I think about diversity training, and you just said the one and done, like, check the box, which is dumb. And it doesn't work. It doesn't do anything. The only thing it potentially does is, like, cover the company's butt because they can say, everyone did something and check the box, but it doesn't actually. Yeah, it's compliance, and it doesn't actually do anything. Right. And the thing that always pops into my mind is that episode, the early episode from the Office back In, like, the 2000s diversity, uh, day. And I don't know if you remember this episode. It's so cringy, uh, and it's so obnoxious, and it's one of those compliance. Let's check the box. Someone said something offensive. We're going to Send in a person to do like a one hour training, make everyone sign a thing, and then we're done. And then we can wash our hands of it. Right. And that's the stupid part. Like, if that's what we're trying to do within our organizations, I mean, we're not only setting ourselves up for failure, but like we're, it's just, it's going to be counterproductive, it's going to make things worse. So let's hopefully we're way beyond that in most organizations though. Unfortunately, I still see remnants of that kind of an approach at times.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You know, I think it's so important. You know, one of the things that I often talk about is the organizational culture is what people experience every single day. It's not what's written on the cafeteria wall. And so, you know, when we go into these organizations and they have all these values and everything on the wall, the question that I ask is, okay, what does that look like every single day? Like, how does that manifest? How is that embodied in my interactions with people? And people stumble over that. Uh, well. Or it's the, uh, it's just kind of what everybody says. Right? It's just, you know, this is the script that we should say we believe in. Okay, so what does that look like? Yeah, and I think that's the work that really needs to happen. If you're really talking about being an inclusive culture, what does that look like? What does mean? Um, and how should I, as an employee feel in that space? And so it's. How do we go beyond the word? Right. And so, um, yeah, that's, that's the hard work and that's the work that takes time. And it goes so beyond just checking the box and the compliance work, which is honestly what I think got us to this point here, was a lot of the checking the box type of things, um, and misinterpretation of what DEI actually is. But that's a whole other conversation. But, um, I think this deeper work is, um, needed. And to your point, I think that's what we're starting to see more of. Uh, okay, how do we get past checking the box? How do we get past some of the programs that had good intentions but may have not landed the way that they were intended to land? How do we get past that and create environments where everyone, regardless of background, race, creed, gender, et cetera, feels like they are being set up for success? And so that is the ultimate work.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I do like to assume good intentions, um, when, when These things happen, uh, even if they're completely unproductive or counterproductive. Uh, but the reality is, you're right, like, they, they don't particularly work. And, and I, you know, there's been different waves, like pendulum swing. Right. And there's been different waves over time of how this, this whole field and the work has, has developed. Uh, but I think a big inflection point was the George Floyd murder back in 2020. Um, and it was so everywhere. And you know, just the horrific video. And all of a sudden, like, almost every organization felt the pressure to put out a statement, um, and to do something, uh, for their people to demonstrate that, hey, we see you, we value you, this is not okay, et cetera. Right. Which is fine. But the problem was for so many organizations, it was just performative. Um, and they said nice things, maybe they put a nice thing on the wall, send a nice email, whatever. But in the day to day, like, nothing changed. Um, and, and that, I agree. I think that's partially why the pendulum has swung back in recent years, is because there was so much performative energy put towards it that didn't actually accomplish anything. And all it really did for a lot of people was kind of take them off and, and uh, require, you know, cause them to retrench, you know, in ways that weren't healthy. Um, and so, you know, there's a good lesson to be learned from that for, for all of us who want to do this work and be allies and be supportive of, um, of various communities that, you know, there's no shortcut and there's no substitute for the real work that has to be done. And, and in fact, we can really hurt the cause, you know, if, if we're only doing surface level, performative stuff.

Speaker B: Yeah. You know, and it's interesting, you use the word ally and I tell people, I cringe a little bit at that word because people look at it as, um, a noun. Right. I am an ally. Um, but it's a verb.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. And so how do you actively do that? And so when people say to me, you know, oh, you know, I'm an ally for this community, and the question that I ask is, what are you willing to risk for that community? What are you willing to put on the line for that community? Um, and it's interesting to see some of the reactions to that. It's like, oh, you know, I just want to support. Okay, so you're not an ally, you know, you're just a supporter.

Speaker A: Like, if I'm not willing to leverage My privilege for marginalized communities, then, yes, I'm not an ally. So, yeah, I'm a straight cisgender white dude. I have like all the layers of privilege. And so for me, like, I really have to, like, I have to be willing to push speak ups, push back, challenge the status quo, um, even if that makes me a little bit uncomfortable. Even if that potentially puts my job at risk. Right. Um, or my social standing at risk or whatever. That's the whole point, right. Is that I have to be active in my allyship and I have to be willing to put my privilege to work, um, for those who don't have it.

Speaker B: And I appreciate that. And I think something that is often missing in that conversation is everybody can be an ally to someone else. Yeah. Right. And so even though as a black woman in this country, I have lots of areas that I don't have privilege, but I'm able bodied. Right. Um, I'm cisgender. And so I often talk about, when I worked in corporate, um, being on a team, talking about a website. And the question that I asked was, well, will a screen reader be able to be utilized for it? And they're looking at me like I'm crazy. Like, why would we need a screen reader? I'm like, because if we're. It's a website about inclusion, I think you may want to have something that, you know, if people have visual impairments, they'd be able to read what's on the screen. Screen. Um, I was the only person having, thinking about that in that conversation. Right. And so it's not always about race and gender, but it's often thinking about how other people that aren't in the room are being thought about, or at least you can pause the conversation so that you're being more inclusive, um, of others. And so I think that part of the reason why we are also here too has, is it has made, quote, unquote, all white cisgendered men. White men the enemy. Right. Which is far from the truth. Um, and so what I think you're going to start to see more of, and I was just on a call yesterday with a, uh, good friend who does a lot of this work is how do we create a more inclusive conversation around inclusion. Right. Without being exclusionary? How do we create environments where everyone can thrive and everyone's voice has the same amount of weight in the conversation and not necessarily be hit on the majority group, regardless of what that group is. How are we getting those other voices in? And how are we getting the voices in of the people that aren't even at the table. So I think, you know, even though we are going through a time right now, it is, at least for me, I've been calling it a caller caterpillar moment. Like, is this our chance and opportunity to become a beautiful butterfly? And what are we doing with that time, that discomfort moment, right in that metamorphosis of, of this work? Um, and so I think that that is there. This is an opportunity for us to really step back and be more cognizant of what we're doing. But also, are we truly being as inclusive as we want to be? So, yeah, I know that was just a mouthful, but.

Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, I think we've been, we've been kind of unpacking different components of, of inclusion and DEI work. And, and I just want to reiterate what you just said, that inclusion is an inclusive term. Like, obviously, right, Inclusion, it means involving everybody. And so I think it's unfortunate that the term has largely been co opted, you know, to mean something it doesn't mean. Like, I literally, um, want everyone to thrive. I want fulfill their potential. I want everyone to have opportunities for meaningful contribution, to feel valued. I want that for everybody. I don't care if they're a white dude, I don't care if they're a pregnant woman of color. I don't care if they're physically disabled. I don't care, uh, you know, if they're trans or lgbt, whatever. I don't care. Like, what I want is everyone to, to be in a healthy space and for everyone to be able to contribute. And that's what inclusion means. And that's, that's really what, um, I think those of us who do work in this space, you know, we get that. Um, but I don't think that message always gets across and so it gets kind of co opted and relabeled as, um, you know, just how are we going to help, um, people of color or LGBT or whatever? And yes, you know, there may be disadvantaged communities that need some attention. Um, that, and we need to check our biases and we need to make sure that we're, you know, having those conversations. But literally it's, it's like a rising tide lifts all ships. Like, we want everyone to thrive and, and, but that also means that like, if, as a white, cisgendered, able bodied dude, you know, like, I, if I'm only positioning myself, you know, in my opportunity within like the, the, the perspective of privilege and I want to maintain that privilege and if if there's any equalization of privilege, then that means I'm being hurt or harmed. Um, which is a common perspective, I think. Uh, then that's incredibly problematic. And I can't raise m my identity, my group, unless I can help raise everyone around me. Like if people are disadvantaged, then that hurts everybody. Uh, and it helps everyone when everyone has equal opportunity.

Speaker B: Um, I think you're speaking to the real fight here. Um, the challenge that we are facing is about equity, right? And there's equity versus equality. And so there's this misunderstanding that equity equals unfairness. Um, and I use the analogy of children, right? So I have bonus boys that are 18 years old, twins, very, um, different personalities.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And so they need different things. You know, certain things that I will say to one I may not have to say to the other. Right. And it's not that I don't love them anymore. I want them both to be successful, but they don't need the same things. And so we have to think about it in a similar way that everybody doesn't need the same thing in order to be successful. And so, and what that looks like for me may be different than what you need, or it may look exactly the same. And we have very different backgrounds. And so we have to get out of this mindset of what fairness is. And everybody gets the same thing, everybody doesn't need the same thing. And so I really think we don't want the same thing. Right. And so, um, the fight here is really about equity. Um, and that's part of the reason why I named my company the Equity Equation like it is. What do people need in order to be successful? What do people need? What barriers need to be removed or what support needs to be provided in order for people to be successful. And so that's what this work is all about. And so the more we can start to think about it from those terms and understand that this is about getting people to that across the line of success versus I just want everything to be fair. Life's not fair. Right. And we're seeing that. And so this battle that we are seeing play out right now is this fight for, um, continuing to have privileges for those that may or may not need privileges. Um, and so it'll be an interesting next few years to see how all this plays out. Um, but yeah, I think that's, that's the battle. And so organizations really need to understand that in order for them to create these environments where people feel like they can thrive and they feel valued and seen and connected, they have to understand what equity looks like within those organizations as, as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, very well said. Um, I think a real key component to all of this, especially given the complexity, like in the politically charged, polarized nature of so many of these conversations currently, which is incredibly unfortunate, but it's the reality, um, is that you, you know, for leaders to navigate this at this moment requires, I think, a pretty high level of emotional intelligence. Um, maybe we can talk about that a little bit. And like, how do you work with, you know, in your coaching, for example, work with leaders to, to help them get to a space where they feel more comfortable, um, you know, supporting their people, having these conversations and doing the real, like, day to day stuff like that is actually going to make a difference.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I think a big part of the work that I do is around, you know, psychological safety and emotional intelligence, which are very tied together. And it's having people understand that we're dealing with humans. Right. We're not just checking boxes off tasks because I think we get into this mode of, okay, let's. Are all the tasks done are checking in with the human. Do you know who the person is on the other side of the screen or the other side of the desk? What are the things that are happening with them? And so part of the work that we do is how do you get to create a relationship, Right. With this person? And that's not saying you're best friends and you're, you know, hanging out on the weekends, but it's just understanding how this person operates and how they take what they need, um, in order to be successful, all of those things. And part of that is emotional intelligence, right? How can you read the room? Do you, do I know you enough to know that what I'm seeing today in your behavior is not normal? Right. Or am I just dismissing it because I'm so focused on what I need to get done, Right. And so it's, how are you checking in with those folks that are on your team? Um, what are the things that motivate them? Or do you know that some people are motivated by tasks? Some people are motivated by give me a stretch goal, right? And I will get there and go beyond. Do you know those things? And so that's what I'm actually, um, helping leaders figure out right now. Um, about three, four years ago, four or five years ago, there was an organization called the Maslow Research center, and they did some work around, like what employees want, um, out of the workplace in the post pandemic place. And the two things that Actually stood out for me kind of in level, which is level three, which is what they want from leadership is they want leaders that are mentors and leaders that are coaches. Yeah. They don't want leaders that are taskmasters. Right. So they want someone that is going to help guide them, ask them the right questions. And corporate America, I'll say corporate America is great at mentorship. Sucks at, ah, coaching. Right. Absolutely sucks.

Speaker A: Can you, can you talk to that for just a moment? Like in your mind, what's the difference? Because I, I, I, I agree, I completely agree. And I, I, I've raised this issue with folks and then they're like, what do you mean? Mentoring and coaching is the same thing? I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Speaker B: So a mentor is someone who's been kind of in your shoes that can help give you some guidance on, you know, oh, I would approach it this way or of opportunities. Right. They're kind of speaking for you when you're not in the room. It's, it's a very different role. A coach is not going to tell you anything. A coach is going to ask questions. Right. And so the coach is going to help guide you through those questions. Never tell you which path to take. Um, um, and so I was actually working with a client yesterday, coaching a client yesterday, and he was, you know, telling me about a situation and I said, okay, so now that you know what, you know, how would you approach this differently? And he had to sit back and think about it. And as a coach, I'm not telling him what to say, to think or what to believe. I'm having him think through that process. Right. And so now I'm in this process of having to teach him how to ask the right questions of the folks on his team because again, we're very much in this mentor role or this teacher role of do. If I say this, you do this, right? Or this is how I would do it. Just go ahead and do it. Rather than empowering employees to feel like, okay, so understanding everything that you know, what is the best way that you approach. What are the top two ways that you would approach this? Right. What does your gut me tell having those conversations? And it leads to you also figuring out how well that person thinks. Like some, there may be some misinformation that they may have that you can help guide them with. It's a very different seat that you're sitting in and helping them with their professional development. So that's kind of how I look at coaching, is I'm A guy that's wanting to be by your side, I'm not going to tell you which path to take. And uh, a mentor will help you figure out that.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And asking the right questions, I mean, that may sound easy and obvious, but

Speaker B: like, that's hard learning, very hard.

Speaker A: Learning to write, to ask the right questions is, is a real challenge. And, and that's why a coach can be so valuable, is because they, you know, if they're in tune, you know, they can hear what you're saying, ask questions, ask follow up questions, um, and encourage you to think about things maybe in a different way than you had previously, uh, stuff like that, all of which can be super helpful. But ultimately I'm not directing anything and I'm not telling you what to do. I'm not giving you, you the answer. Um, and yeah, very different thing than, than mentoring. Both are important, both are valuable.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Uh, and when I think about creating, you know, within this conversation of, of inclusion and psychological safety, um, and empowerment, like, they all go hand in hand. You know, like, if I, if I want a truly inclusive workplace, a psychologically safe workplace where everyone feels valued and empowered, um, it mandates that you have coaching. It mandates that you have leaders that, that have emotional intelligence that can help with that coaching process. Um, and so, you know, I think that's a really important area, an opportunity for improvement. Uh, most, most leaders, you know, it is huge. Yeah, most leaders have that opportunity. You know, I have that opportunity. You have the opportunity. Like we do work in the space and we have that opportunity. Opportunity. Like everyone needs to have the intellectual humility to realize that, you know, there's room for growth and development in this area. And I think it'll make all the difference in the world for us to be able to.

Speaker B: One of the best things that I heard was every coach has a coach. Yeah, right.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I mean, I have a coach, and maybe the first time I work with her, I was working in corporate and she asked me the question, sasha, where do you have the most impact inside or outside of the organization? This was maybe six, seven years ago. And that question still plays in my head, um, as to like, okay, am I doing all that I can where I am, or can I serve them better in another capacity? Right. And so that's a question that I keep going back to, but it's because it was a great coaching question.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so, yeah, I think we all have that capacity within organizations to empower leaders, to empower others, um, through those coaching questions.

Speaker A: Yeah. Sasha, this has just been a fantastic conversation. Uh, we could go on and on. I do note the time I need to let you go, but before we wrap things up for today, I just wanted to give you a chance to share with audience how they can connect with you, find out more about your work, and then give us the final word for today.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Um, you can always find my website, which is the Equity Equation, LLC. Com. Um, you can find me on LinkedIn. That's probably where I spend most of my time. Sasha Thompson on there. Um, and then the Equity Equation on all social media. So we have a podcast as well as DEI after five, and so you can look that up. And we have similar conversations, um, talking about just everything that's happening in this space. Um, yeah. So those are, I think, the best places to find me.

Speaker A: Wonderful, Sasha, thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure. Encourage the audience to reach out to get connected. Find out more about what Sasha can do for you. And as always, I hope everyone can stay healthy and safe. You can find meaning and purpose at work each and every day, and I hope you all have a great week. Thanks for joining us for this episode of the podcast. We hope you stay healthy and safe, and please join us again soon.