Customer Success Playbook Podcast S3 E71 - Adrian Swinscoe - Unlocking Value in Customer Journeys

1 00:00:05,309 --> 00:00:06,269 Roman Trebon: Customer success. 2 00:00:10,830 --> 00:00:13,560 Welcome back to the Customer Success Playbook podcast. 3 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,530 I'm Roman Reaugh, uh, my co-host Kevin Meser. 4 00:00:16,859 --> 00:00:19,559 Still out, still not with us, but, uh, we're moving on with 5 00:00:19,559 --> 00:00:21,809 Adrian, uh, just like we did last episode. 6 00:00:21,929 --> 00:00:25,469 So, like I said, our guest is Adrian Scoe, uh, author of punk 7 00:00:25,469 --> 00:00:28,829 cx, author of, um, how to Wow. 8 00:00:29,535 --> 00:00:31,454 Speaker, author, et cetera. 9 00:00:31,454 --> 00:00:33,674 You've, you've seen I did the intro last show. 10 00:00:33,704 --> 00:00:34,755 Go back and listen to it. 11 00:00:34,935 --> 00:00:38,234 So Adrian's back to talk about, uh, how to bring some serious 12 00:00:38,234 --> 00:00:41,384 punk spirits, uh, to your organization. 13 00:00:41,655 --> 00:00:44,384 But before we do, we wanna get to know Adrian a little better. 14 00:00:44,384 --> 00:00:45,284 We have'em on the show. 15 00:00:45,284 --> 00:00:47,655 So Adrian, I hope you're, uh, buckle up and ready for these 16 00:00:47,655 --> 00:00:48,854 really hard hitting questions. 17 00:00:49,365 --> 00:00:49,784 Adrian Swinscoe: Let's do it. 18 00:00:49,784 --> 00:00:50,174 All right. 19 00:00:50,384 --> 00:00:50,835 Roman Trebon: Awesome. 20 00:00:51,075 --> 00:00:54,765 So, uh, if, if, if Kevin and I take a take a road trip, we want 21 00:00:54,765 --> 00:00:55,454 to come visit you. 22 00:00:55,454 --> 00:00:56,685 I think you're in Edinburg. 23 00:00:57,045 --> 00:00:57,524 Yes, I am. 24 00:00:57,945 --> 00:00:58,365 Awesome. 25 00:00:58,695 --> 00:01:01,005 What's the one thing we must do when we're in Edinburgh? 26 00:01:01,005 --> 00:01:02,475 What's the, what's the go-to place? 27 00:01:02,475 --> 00:01:02,750 We gotta see. 28 00:01:03,479 --> 00:01:05,400 Adrian Swinscoe: Well, apart from the castle and all the 29 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:07,680 other kinda bits and pieces, 'cause it's like there's not 30 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:08,939 many places in the world. 31 00:01:08,939 --> 00:01:10,980 It's got a castle in the center of the city. 32 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:12,659 That's kind of like, you definitely have to go and see 33 00:01:12,659 --> 00:01:12,930 that. 34 00:01:12,930 --> 00:01:16,560 But I would, I would suggest that if you come, you, you come 35 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:18,840 to Edinburgh, you should plan ahead. 36 00:01:18,870 --> 00:01:20,400 'cause it gets quite expensive and really busy. 37 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:20,489 Mm-hmm. 38 00:01:20,730 --> 00:01:25,140 But plan to come in August to come and see the Fringe Festival 39 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:29,250 because it's one of the largest arts and culture and, uh, 40 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,019 festivals in, in the world. 41 00:01:31,019 --> 00:01:31,614 And it's, it's. 42 00:01:32,344 --> 00:01:36,724 If you wanna see theater or music or comedy or kind of all 43 00:01:36,724 --> 00:01:38,584 sorts of other kind of performances, it says there's 44 00:01:38,584 --> 00:01:41,375 thousands and thousands and thousands of acts and stuff and 45 00:01:41,465 --> 00:01:42,364 people descend on it. 46 00:01:42,364 --> 00:01:44,944 And it's like, particularly in the comedy sort of space, it 47 00:01:44,944 --> 00:01:49,295 becomes a, a breeding ground for kind of comics trying to break 48 00:01:49,295 --> 00:01:50,135 into the big time. 49 00:01:50,344 --> 00:01:52,114 And you see kind of the lots of different names. 50 00:01:52,114 --> 00:01:54,004 People come from all over the world to, to do it. 51 00:01:54,004 --> 00:01:56,075 So it's, it's, it's crazy, but it's brilliant. 52 00:01:56,424 --> 00:01:56,995 Roman Trebon: Oh, I love it. 53 00:01:57,025 --> 00:01:57,954 I love our audience. 54 00:01:57,954 --> 00:01:59,724 You got, you got a couple months, so get those plane 55 00:01:59,724 --> 00:02:00,025 tickets. 56 00:02:00,025 --> 00:02:00,625 Look into it. 57 00:02:00,715 --> 00:02:01,314 Fringe festival. 58 00:02:01,314 --> 00:02:02,125 That sounds awesome. 59 00:02:02,125 --> 00:02:02,905 I love, I love that. 60 00:02:03,385 --> 00:02:06,144 Adrian, yourself, if you could travel one place you've never 61 00:02:06,144 --> 00:02:06,234 been. 62 00:02:07,125 --> 00:02:08,205 Where are you going and why? 63 00:02:08,985 --> 00:02:14,985 Adrian Swinscoe: Um, Japan, because of 2020, because in 2020 64 00:02:15,194 --> 00:02:17,985 my wife and I had planned this big trip. 65 00:02:17,985 --> 00:02:22,185 We were gonna go to Tokyo for the second week of the Olympics, 66 00:02:22,305 --> 00:02:25,784 and then we were gonna go on to Fiji and then hang out in Fiji 67 00:02:25,784 --> 00:02:28,664 for a little while, and then we're gonna come back, uh, via 68 00:02:28,664 --> 00:02:29,025 Australia. 69 00:02:29,675 --> 00:02:31,925 And visit some friends and then hang out in Sydney for a little 70 00:02:31,925 --> 00:02:33,634 while and then come back all the way home. 71 00:02:33,875 --> 00:02:36,664 And that got blown up in, in 2020. 72 00:02:36,814 --> 00:02:38,854 And so Japan's definitely on our list. 73 00:02:38,854 --> 00:02:41,555 We definitely wanna go back to Japan, so we're thinking about 74 00:02:41,555 --> 00:02:42,574 going for the world. 75 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,030 Athletics championships maybe next year. 76 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:45,389 Roman Trebon: Ooh. 77 00:02:46,169 --> 00:02:48,539 Well, let me know because la last time you shut that, last 78 00:02:48,539 --> 00:02:50,849 time you trapped, uh, planned a trip to Japan, you shut down the 79 00:02:50,849 --> 00:02:51,449 whole world, Adrian. 80 00:02:51,449 --> 00:02:51,900 So let me know. 81 00:02:51,900 --> 00:02:54,120 Gimme a little heads up when you're going just in case 82 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:55,110 something happens this time. 83 00:02:55,110 --> 00:02:56,455 Just will do, will do. 84 00:02:56,455 --> 00:02:56,969 I'm not prepared. 85 00:02:57,205 --> 00:02:59,699 I'll, I'll stock up on waters and, uh, toilet paper. 86 00:02:59,789 --> 00:03:02,699 Alright, so when you're not researching cx, what's your 87 00:03:02,699 --> 00:03:04,050 hobby or pastime that helps you in one? 88 00:03:04,694 --> 00:03:06,615 Adrian Swinscoe: Um, the thing that I really like to do, and 89 00:03:06,615 --> 00:03:09,615 I've done it for, for a number of years, is I like, I like 90 00:03:09,615 --> 00:03:12,555 going rock climbing or bouldering just because I, like, 91 00:03:12,824 --> 00:03:14,685 I've, I've rock climbed for a, a long time. 92 00:03:14,685 --> 00:03:17,685 Both, I mean, different parts of the world, kind of outdoors, 93 00:03:17,685 --> 00:03:20,264 indoors, all these and different sort of like seasons and stuff, 94 00:03:20,955 --> 00:03:24,974 but just going to the rock climbing gym and just doing a 95 00:03:24,974 --> 00:03:26,985 bunch of routines or trying a whole bunch of kind of problems. 96 00:03:27,375 --> 00:03:30,555 It's brilliant, it's great exercise, but it's also quite 97 00:03:30,555 --> 00:03:33,224 meditative because it's all about balance and movement and 98 00:03:33,224 --> 00:03:34,395 focus and all these different things. 99 00:03:34,395 --> 00:03:37,155 So it becomes a bit like yoga sort of thing. 100 00:03:37,155 --> 00:03:39,974 You can go off and get your exercise, but then do this kind 101 00:03:39,974 --> 00:03:43,275 of thing and you come out feeling everything is, you know, 102 00:03:43,335 --> 00:03:45,344 everything just falls outta your mind'cause it requires kinda 103 00:03:45,344 --> 00:03:45,675 focus. 104 00:03:45,675 --> 00:03:48,585 So it's a, it's a really great way to, um, unwind. 105 00:03:48,585 --> 00:03:50,895 But unfortunately I haven't done it for a very while because I've 106 00:03:50,895 --> 00:03:52,544 been dealing with some historical. 107 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:54,659 Got like some back injury stuff. 108 00:03:54,659 --> 00:03:59,340 There's historical stuff, and so I'm out until September time, 109 00:03:59,340 --> 00:04:01,259 but hopefully, I'm really looking forward to getting back 110 00:04:01,259 --> 00:04:01,620 into it. 111 00:04:01,889 --> 00:04:02,520 Roman Trebon: That'd be awesome. 112 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:04,439 You, you're not one of those three climbers, right? 113 00:04:04,439 --> 00:04:06,270 I'm not gonna see up the side of a mountain with any ropes. 114 00:04:06,270 --> 00:04:06,479 Right? 115 00:04:06,479 --> 00:04:08,400 You have a rope, you're, you're locked in and good to go. 116 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,919 Adrian Swinscoe: I am when bouldering is all low levels, so 117 00:04:10,919 --> 00:04:12,270 you can jump off onto mats. 118 00:04:12,449 --> 00:04:15,944 I have nothing like kind of Alex Honnold that he is a, he is a, 119 00:04:16,045 --> 00:04:17,105 he is a, a. 120 00:04:18,079 --> 00:04:20,269 An incredible kinda human being in terms of what he does. 121 00:04:20,449 --> 00:04:24,079 But no, I'm tied to a rope that even tied to a rope is dangerous 122 00:04:24,079 --> 00:04:24,439 enough. 123 00:04:24,439 --> 00:04:27,439 But when you can climb just with shoes and short bag, that's kind 124 00:04:27,439 --> 00:04:28,339 of different level, man. 125 00:04:28,430 --> 00:04:28,819 Roman Trebon: Crazy. 126 00:04:28,819 --> 00:04:29,509 I'm scared of heights. 127 00:04:29,509 --> 00:04:30,199 I see those guys do. 128 00:04:30,199 --> 00:04:31,639 I can't even watch the videos, Adrian. 129 00:04:31,639 --> 00:04:33,290 I, I, I get freaked out just watching it. 130 00:04:33,290 --> 00:04:34,370 But what they do is amazing. 131 00:04:34,370 --> 00:04:34,790 Awesome. 132 00:04:34,790 --> 00:04:35,750 Thanks for sharing that. 133 00:04:35,899 --> 00:04:38,360 I think it's time for us to get into our one big question. 134 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,870 So, so Adrian, uh, many companies, they wanna reduce 135 00:04:41,870 --> 00:04:42,920 customer friction, right? 136 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,800 Fewer steps, less friction, easier to get through, et 137 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:46,310 cetera. 138 00:04:46,665 --> 00:04:49,935 But how, how do companies do that without stripping out the, 139 00:04:49,935 --> 00:04:52,545 the human or emotional connection that really helps us 140 00:04:52,725 --> 00:04:53,654 get tied to the brand? 141 00:04:53,925 --> 00:04:55,545 Adrian Swinscoe: So I think the thing that we need to be, we 142 00:04:55,545 --> 00:04:58,485 need to, first of all, we need to recognize there's, there's 143 00:04:58,485 --> 00:04:59,894 good and there's bad friction. 144 00:05:00,435 --> 00:05:02,024 And it's essential to know the difference. 145 00:05:02,595 --> 00:05:04,754 And I remember, so I'll, to illustrate this, I'll, I'll, 146 00:05:04,759 --> 00:05:04,839 I'll. 147 00:05:05,504 --> 00:05:06,254 I'll give you an example. 148 00:05:06,254 --> 00:05:10,814 I remember talking to the CEO of user testing one time, uh, when 149 00:05:10,814 --> 00:05:13,064 he was the former CEO of, of user testing. 150 00:05:13,064 --> 00:05:16,634 Andy McMillan, when he was still in post, and he told me this 151 00:05:16,634 --> 00:05:20,925 story about a company that, um, that they worked with that was 152 00:05:20,925 --> 00:05:23,654 infused by this idea about creating this frictionless, kind 153 00:05:23,654 --> 00:05:25,185 of like customer experience. 154 00:05:25,605 --> 00:05:27,644 And they ended up taking all these different kinda bits out 155 00:05:27,644 --> 00:05:31,514 and out of the process and streamlining it and things Now. 156 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:32,709 Here's what happened. 157 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,154 Signups to their, to their product. 158 00:05:36,165 --> 00:05:37,514 Kinda went up nicely. 159 00:05:38,055 --> 00:05:41,714 But when it came to actually their able ability to retain 160 00:05:41,894 --> 00:05:44,384 customers, it fell through the floor. 161 00:05:44,654 --> 00:05:46,545 'cause and when they can, when they stopped and they thought 162 00:05:46,545 --> 00:05:48,435 about this and that,'cause that was alarming to them, and they 163 00:05:48,435 --> 00:05:50,324 were like, oh, it's easier for people to sign up, but we're 164 00:05:50,324 --> 00:05:51,285 actually not keeping customers. 165 00:05:51,285 --> 00:05:52,394 So it's like, oh, what have we done? 166 00:05:52,394 --> 00:05:53,774 Have we actually built this boat? 167 00:05:54,105 --> 00:05:55,964 We were trying to sell it with a hole in the bottom of it. 168 00:05:56,685 --> 00:05:58,995 But when they looked into it and they spoke to their customers, 169 00:05:58,995 --> 00:06:02,384 what they realized was all of the steps that they'd taken out 170 00:06:02,384 --> 00:06:03,540 that they assumed were effort. 171 00:06:03,935 --> 00:06:07,569 Full, as it were, were the things that were. 172 00:06:08,444 --> 00:06:11,834 The word value defining for the relationship they have with 173 00:06:11,834 --> 00:06:12,464 their customers. 174 00:06:12,464 --> 00:06:16,514 So like imagine you go into a, um, like say, say you like 175 00:06:16,514 --> 00:06:19,185 choosing a car or something and you say, I want this car and I 176 00:06:19,185 --> 00:06:22,004 want this, this paint work and this finish and this drive, and 177 00:06:22,004 --> 00:06:23,204 all these different sort of things. 178 00:06:23,714 --> 00:06:24,014 Um. 179 00:06:24,524 --> 00:06:26,295 What they were doing is they were taking all these different 180 00:06:26,295 --> 00:06:28,365 things out and it was almost becoming automatic, like fixed 181 00:06:28,365 --> 00:06:29,475 choices as it were. 182 00:06:29,625 --> 00:06:33,435 And actually what they found out was actually it was the choice 183 00:06:33,615 --> 00:06:34,665 part of it. 184 00:06:34,754 --> 00:06:37,245 The effort that was required to make the choice was the thing 185 00:06:37,245 --> 00:06:39,314 that was delivering the value and sealing the relationship 186 00:06:39,314 --> 00:06:40,725 they had with their, their customers. 187 00:06:41,115 --> 00:06:44,175 And so what they went, they were like, oh, horror and then 188 00:06:44,175 --> 00:06:47,685 basically rewound everything that they did to try and. 189 00:06:48,355 --> 00:06:50,935 Almost put themselves back to where they were because what 190 00:06:50,935 --> 00:06:53,725 they'd done by the whole friction, uh, taking all these 191 00:06:53,725 --> 00:06:57,355 steps out, they'd actually eliminated all the value making 192 00:06:57,355 --> 00:06:58,285 steps that they had in it. 193 00:06:58,285 --> 00:06:59,995 So it's a really important. 194 00:07:00,644 --> 00:07:05,384 To, to understand what parts of your process are good friction 195 00:07:05,384 --> 00:07:07,995 and what parts of the process are bad friction. 196 00:07:08,144 --> 00:07:09,524 And you need to know the difference. 197 00:07:09,555 --> 00:07:11,925 'cause you don't wanna be playing assuming that all 198 00:07:12,045 --> 00:07:14,055 efforts is bad friction. 199 00:07:14,204 --> 00:07:15,704 'cause that could be bad for your business. 200 00:07:15,944 --> 00:07:16,964 Roman Trebon: Yeah, no, I love that. 201 00:07:16,964 --> 00:07:17,865 I love that story. 202 00:07:17,865 --> 00:07:19,694 Uh, it's, it's amazing, right? 203 00:07:19,694 --> 00:07:21,675 You take all that out and then your clients are leaving through 204 00:07:21,675 --> 00:07:24,134 the back door without even, uh, without even thinking about it, 205 00:07:24,134 --> 00:07:24,404 right? 206 00:07:24,555 --> 00:07:26,360 So, so for, for organizations who want to do this. 207 00:07:26,915 --> 00:07:29,165 Adrian, they want to kind of look at their, their good 208 00:07:29,165 --> 00:07:29,584 friction. 209 00:07:29,584 --> 00:07:30,305 Bad friction. 210 00:07:30,365 --> 00:07:33,545 How do they balance, you know, there's so much I feel like, uh, 211 00:07:33,574 --> 00:07:35,495 focus on operational efficiency. 212 00:07:35,855 --> 00:07:35,915 Yeah. 213 00:07:35,915 --> 00:07:38,704 But how do you do that without losing the connection with your, 214 00:07:38,704 --> 00:07:39,394 with your customers? 215 00:07:39,904 --> 00:07:41,855 Adrian Swinscoe: It's a really big question and I, I, I, you 216 00:07:41,855 --> 00:07:42,329 know, and I. 217 00:07:42,899 --> 00:07:44,944 Who don't have time for me to write well, to speak out an 218 00:07:44,944 --> 00:07:46,319 essay, an essay on this book. 219 00:07:46,319 --> 00:07:47,579 So I, I'd say two, like two things. 220 00:07:47,579 --> 00:07:47,759 Yeah. 221 00:07:47,759 --> 00:07:49,949 I think you need to do it carefully, carefully, and 222 00:07:49,949 --> 00:07:50,579 deliberately. 223 00:07:50,879 --> 00:07:53,610 And you have to think about where the customer's kinda 224 00:07:53,610 --> 00:07:55,829 journey and where they interact with you and what's the kinda 225 00:07:55,829 --> 00:07:58,889 right balance of human and, and and tech and what, what, what, 226 00:07:58,889 --> 00:08:01,259 what are things are, are real kinda like pain points that are 227 00:08:01,319 --> 00:08:05,759 costing you the costing, uh, the business in terms of operational 228 00:08:05,759 --> 00:08:08,399 kind of cost or maybe kind of too much effort that you're 229 00:08:08,399 --> 00:08:09,899 losing customers at those kind of points. 230 00:08:10,110 --> 00:08:10,920 And then you just need to. 231 00:08:11,384 --> 00:08:14,084 Again, go back to the data thing that we talked about on Monday. 232 00:08:14,084 --> 00:08:16,634 We need to go get into the data, then think to see about what 233 00:08:16,634 --> 00:08:18,675 people are saying about all these different sort of points. 234 00:08:18,975 --> 00:08:22,305 And then if it needs to be, get out and talk to people about 235 00:08:22,305 --> 00:08:24,074 what works and what doesn't kinda work. 236 00:08:24,074 --> 00:08:25,095 Hear are those stories. 237 00:08:25,154 --> 00:08:27,824 Gonna listen to those stories, kind of like absorb those 238 00:08:27,824 --> 00:08:28,394 stories. 239 00:08:29,084 --> 00:08:31,154 'cause if you only, if you do that carefully and deliberately, 240 00:08:31,154 --> 00:08:33,585 then are, are you gonna get a real sense of what works and 241 00:08:33,585 --> 00:08:34,605 what doesn't work and why you should. 242 00:08:35,250 --> 00:08:36,960 What you should be fixing, what you should be leaving alone. 243 00:08:37,620 --> 00:08:37,830 Roman Trebon: Yeah. 244 00:08:37,889 --> 00:08:38,460 No, I love it. 245 00:08:38,460 --> 00:08:38,850 I love it. 246 00:08:38,970 --> 00:08:40,019 Awesome stuff, Adrian. 247 00:08:40,019 --> 00:08:41,129 Really appreciate it. 248 00:08:41,279 --> 00:08:44,940 Big takeaways, uh, really make sure you balance, understand 249 00:08:44,940 --> 00:08:48,240 the, your customers good friction, bad friction, uh, 250 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,299 simplify, but, you know, maybe don't, don't, don't over, uh, 251 00:08:51,299 --> 00:08:52,950 engineer it or, or sanitize it, right. 252 00:08:53,264 --> 00:08:54,315 So, absolutely. 253 00:08:54,315 --> 00:08:55,934 Adrian, you're gonna come back for a third show, right? 254 00:08:55,934 --> 00:08:57,225 I, we haven't scared way yet. 255 00:08:57,495 --> 00:08:57,645 Yes, I'm awesome. 256 00:08:57,735 --> 00:08:58,034 Awesome. 257 00:08:58,034 --> 00:08:58,575 That's awesome. 258 00:08:58,575 --> 00:09:00,495 For our audience, I hope you enjoyed the show. 259 00:09:00,495 --> 00:09:03,945 Again, make sure you subscribe so you know, when our new shows 260 00:09:03,945 --> 00:09:07,424 come out, like it, give us a rating comment that really helps 261 00:09:07,424 --> 00:09:11,235 us, uh, get, uh, our show out to more professionals in the 262 00:09:11,235 --> 00:09:12,615 customer success world. 263 00:09:13,004 --> 00:09:16,274 As always, we really appreciate you listening and keep on 264 00:09:16,274 --> 00:09:16,634 playing.