Future (#236)

Speaker A: This episode of the See YouInsight Experience podcast is sponsored by Trellance Cooperative Holdings Incorporated. Trellance is the parent company behind some of the most trusted credit union tech providers, such as Rise, Analytics, Pro Bridge, and Optiri. By providing tech to credit unions and investing in new solutions, Trailence aims to create growth opportunities for the entire industry and to empower credit unions to embrace innovative new technology. Learn more@ah trellis.com.

Speaker B: Welcome to the CUInsight Experience. I'm Randy Smith, one of the co founders of CuInsight.com and I'm Jill Nowacki,

Speaker C: co founder, president and CEO of Z List, a firm dedicated to helping credit unions ignite what's possible through leadership development, executive search, and organizational performance.

Speaker B: This year on the podcast, we have been exploring what it means to lead with purpose. Not just, uh, in the big mom, but the everyday decisions that really shape who we become as leaders.

Speaker C: And today's conversation is about something that every leader encounters eventually. Moving forward.

Speaker B: Uh, and that is the title of this episode, it's Forward.

Speaker C: This is about recognizing when something is no longer aligned, when the vision changes, when your priorities evolve, when you've become someone different than the person who started the journey.

Speaker B: And most importantly, it's about embracing what's ahead and instead of mourning what we leave behind.

Speaker C: Uh, because moving forward isn't about abandoning the past, it's about building on it.

Speaker B: Well, uh, Jill, this. This topic feels, uh, especially timely because you are living it right now. This has been obviously a lot going on in our house this past week or so.

Speaker C: Indeed, I am. I am currently in a season of transition. After seven years of building humanity, I recently launched Ziolist, co founded with Tracy Kenyon. This is exciting. It's energizing. And as with any transition, it's a little mysterious, too. So, for example, when we were setting up payroll, our provider kept asking about the way we used to do things. There's no old way at Z List. There's only what we build right now. And that really is refreshing to be able to start from scratch like that.

Speaker B: I think that's what makes a conversation like this so relevant. A lot of leaders assume that change only happens when something's broken.

Speaker C: Exactly. Yeah. So we think the reason to leave something is because it's failing or we're really unhappy or things aren't working. But that's not always true. Sometimes we move forward because we've grown or we've learned something new about ourselves and that future starts pulling us in a different direction. And you hear that call and you just have to answer it.

Speaker B: I love that. Because when people hear Move on, they often assume there's a negative story attached for it. Not the idea that it's like, no, I'm.

Speaker C: I'm following my compass, you know, because you're here. But you can only imagine how many people are like, what's going on with that. There's a group chat. We're speculating, but often there isn't anything negative to speculate about. For me, the recent transition wasn't about running away from something. It was about building towards something bigger. And it just felt absolutely compelling to make the change.

Speaker B: Absolutely. When, you know, I couldn't agree more and couldn't support this more. And that really feels like the heart of the conversation we're going to have today.

Speaker C: Yeah. Because every leader does eventually reach a point where they do have to ask, am I staying here because this is really where I'm supposed to be, or am I staying because it's familiar?

Speaker B: You know, we're going to get into that so much more because I think that's often where people live. Right. Like, uh, it's like, this is comfortable. This is what I know. This is like, the unknown is scary, but I think the longer we stay in that space, kind of the more uncomfortable it can be. So let's talk about alignment and kick this thing off. One thing I noticed is that most transitions don't happen with that, like, dramatic moment. There's not the Jerry Maguire taking the fish and who's coming with me. That type of moment, it builds. Right. And we don't recognize the signs.

Speaker C: Well, even Jerry had some building leading up to that. Right. There were these moments where he was doing his life and just feeling like it wasn't quite what he expected. And that. That's. That type of feeling that we get that usually does start to get us to that point where maybe there's a dramatic moment.

Speaker B: Yeah. That kind of quiet feeling that something has shifted. What is it? Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah. And for me, that often shows up as friction. I start to feel less energized. I feel less excited about the things that used to just light me up. And things that used to be tolerable are just downright irritating.

Speaker B: I was just going to say I find when. I know I've seen it in you, but I've noticed it myself before, too, when, like, there's that. When you start to feel that, like a little bit of out of balance or, uh, some of the other the things that, say, drain you more than inspire or ignite you are showing up, then all the little things start. Like, things that wouldn't bother us start to bother us. Right. Like, it's like. And then people that wouldn't bother us start to bother us. It just spirals in. You're just like, this is not the place that I need to be or want to be.

Speaker C: Yeah, without doubt. My, my patience is first to go when my alignment is off. And you can feel when you're losing patience. Like, you don't, you don't love it, but you notice it.

Speaker B: So, yeah, I can definitely relate to that. That's for sure. Uh, and I think leaders often ignore those signals because they're sub first.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Like, and because we're not just talking about you or me, we're talking about leaders. And sometimes we're like, what's different? What's changed? Don't even know. Maybe we haven't realized anything's changed.

Speaker C: Yeah. We can also ignore those signals, not just because they're subtle, but also because the leader is successful. And so they're doing the things. And so if they're feeling a certain type of way, it must be something outside of themselves. Right. Because they're. They're successful.

Speaker B: I think when you think about that, I think that's often when, say, us outside observers to somebody, maybe it's an acquaintance of ours where we're like, surprised. Wait, did you hear so and so did something different? And it's like. Well, because from the outside, everything looked amazing, but no one knows what's going on behind the scenes. And that's whether that's in people's careers or relationships or whatever it happens to be. Right.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. Success does make it harder to recognize when you've outgrown something. Like you said, everything looks good from the outside, things are going well. And that's where that internal voice is really. Is really prominent. You're being called towards something different.

Speaker B: I think about that. We've all heard the, the phrase, I feel like, you know, that don't rock the boat.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: I mean, where it's just like, maybe the boat needs to be rocked or maybe we need a different boat, so maybe it's time for a bigger boat.

Speaker C: We don't need a boat, just so you know.

Speaker B: Yeah, I know, I know.

Speaker C: But it is. Yeah. When there is that idea of we are conditioned to believe that if something is good enough, we should just keep doing it forever.

Speaker B: Yeah. But life doesn't really work that way.

Speaker C: Gosh, I hope not. Right? No. People evolve. Leaders evolve, organizations evolve. There's no question that that change is going to happen. It's just about really being able to recognize when it's happening and when it's time to make it happen.

Speaker B: I think, um, absolutely. Because we do, we do control our own destiny. Absolutely nobody else can do that for us. It's up to us, that's for sure. Something I was really excited to talk about here. My guess is it's going to be my favorite part of this podcast is uh, this idea that forward, like moving forward, moving on isn't failure. Leaving an organization, leaving a team, leaving whatever it happens to be, that's, it's not failure. But I think a lot of leaders get stuck in that place.

Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. You know that I probably rely on my 15 year old son as an advisor more than the average adult might rely on their teenage son. But Crossy and I were having a good conversation as I was discerning my next steps and how to handle things. And uh, I said to him that I worried that making a transition took away the fact that I built humanity. And he was able to say like you still built it even if you, you move on to something else. And it was really powerful me that my, my 15 year old guru there, um, to be able to really think about it from that you can build something, enjoy it and then recognize the time when it is time to move on.

Speaker B: Yeah. To another challenge too. I couldn't agree with you more thinking about that. Quite honestly, I think that is a place that a lot of us get stuck. Right. Like uh, we've put so much work in or there's a project that's ongoing and it's like we need to wrap this up before we can do this. But then in the meantime there's another thing that we need to wrap up and that's where being able to like take an honest reflection and look and say, okay, number one, timing is not ever going to probably be perfect when doing our quotes. But it is a question of like, where do we spend our energy? You know, that we can be the best for ourselves, but also for others as well. So that's for sure. So, uh, let me ask this question. Why do you think as leaders we often don't give ourselves the permission to, to make the move or maybe even recognize that that alignment is off?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think there are an unfortunate many places where people can get stuck. So just as you're talking about, there is that likelihood of making excuses about the timing. Well, I'm going to wait until this is done. Oh, well, this isn't a good Time from it, from that side. I think there's also a fear that to make a change is like admitting they were wrong. Or I was like, you know, are people gonna think that you're not loyal or you're not committed or something to that, you know, people other. A fear of what other people will think.

Speaker B: I was just gonna say that idea. It's like, oh, I'm gonna disappoint other people with my decision. Yeah.

Speaker C: And that's. I mean, that's really hard because that's a. A, uh, requirement that I think the best leaders take responsibility for the people in their care. And making a change can be something that it's going to impact other people. And so, you know, you're conditioned to care for how your actions impact others, if you're a good leader. But sometimes you do have to make the decision that goes with your alignment and moves you forward with that. It shows that you're paying attention to what's going on. You're anticipating it and you're ready there.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Hm. I can see that for sure. Again, this is. I find this so interesting. Intriguing because one of the things over the years of hosting this podcast is I've talked to a whole lot of pretty smart people that have done very well in our industry. Right. And many times there's conversations before we ever hit record or long after. Right. And so it. And then, you know, conversations just on a more personal side and that idea of, well, this is going on, or I've had success, or, well, what would people think? Oh, I'd be letting people down. It is amazing to me. You've probably heard this more about than I have on this. But even, like, people as they're getting close to retirement, thinking they need to stay for another couple years because, well, this person isn't ready yet. The. The credit union's not ready yet. You know, like, we need another two years. Oh, I'll work part time, basically, to help the new CEO, because there's no, you know, I mean, like, I literally

Speaker C: had a conversation with a good friend about this today. And, uh, we were talking about this upcoming transition and the person that had set his retirement date based on these key projects that had to be finish because they couldn't possibly finish if he wasn't the one in the CEO chair at the time. And what he was telling me today was sort of like, that's kind of embarrassing that I felt that way. Right. Like, because obviously the next CEO has unique skills and talents and abilities and likability that makes it just fine. But we absolutely talk ourselves into being certain that the world will fall apart without us, or at least the organization, and then everybody will be disappointed in us.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I do think that is such an important thing. And, like, this is something that I've talked to you about also. We've, uh. I'm thinking of a few other of our friends in the industry who've recently went through some things, and I keep trying to remind people that, like, everybody else has their own lives, that that energy they put into ours, thinking it's a big deal lasts about 30 seconds, and then something goes on with their kid, their. Their credit union, their job, and a few months later, it's just like, oh, yeah, I forgot you used to do that or whatever.

Speaker C: I remember I heard that bit of news. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: What was that about the rebrand? Who knows? But that, to me is the. I think it's just like. Again, I think we all do it, whether we're leaders or not, is we get in our own head on how is this gonna. Like, what are all the others doing air quotes again? Going to think? One thing, I made a note about this for my, like, just myself, is that as we kind of wrap this section up, but to go back to the beginning, these chapters don't end because they failed. They Sometimes they end because we fulfilled the purpose that we were doing during that season.

Speaker C: Yeah. You know that I believe that one of my unique leadership strengths is my ability to analyze pitfalls. Or as you say, it, uh, consider 32 different scenarios for everybody.

Speaker B: 32 of them, every single thing.

Speaker C: If you haven't thought of 32, you haven't thought of it, thought of enough. So there's a part of me that believes that sometimes when people move on, it's because they've analyzed those scenarios and they've landed at a possibility that demonstrates they're really paying attention. And so the reason the vision changes isn't because they were previously wrong. It's because they're scanning that horizon, seeing what's out there and recognizing when it's not the right direction to be charging for them anymore. They've, uh, maybe grown beyond the vision that's been set before, and it's time to move.

Speaker B: You know, there's something, and I would even say watching you during this process, but I know it's something that I've felt before, and, you know, we've seen it in others, is like, the purpose doesn't change what we care about, we still care deeply about. But sometimes the situation changes where we're not able to execute at the same level. And if we stay there and we're less effective, we're not doing ourselves any good. We're not doing the people we serve any good. We're not doing our teams any good. So it's like, how do we create that place where we can find the joy, we can excel, we can live that purpose fuller. And that to me is a powerful thing that I believe when we make that decision, there's a point the next day, a week later, a month later, where we feel so much lighter again, we feel energized again. Like we feel we're like, oh, look, I'm spending my mental, limited mental capacity to actually focus on the thing that drives me, the purpose, what I'm here to do, and not on the 32 scenarios that might be going on with all of us.

Speaker C: So, yeah, absolutely. As soon as the, the question is answered of what do I do, then you can get to the business of actually doing the thing. And so there's absolutely a lightness. Not just a lightness that comes from putting down the weight of it, but a, like an empowerment that comes that you have permission to go now, you have permission to grow, to evolve, to change, to really kind of activate in that side of it.

Speaker B: It takes courage to follow that vision. Right? Like to follow a new vision. Because, uh, you know, when we talk, I mean, like I said, we've talked to a lot of leaders, we talk to each other. Everybody's. It's kind of like when everybody says they have an open door policy. Moving forward is what everybody says we're doing. Right. So in theory it sounds easy and it's great and we're all doing it. Until it's your turn to make that big decision. What do you think makes it so hard?

Speaker C: It's what we talked about. It's that idea of, uh, we expect ourselves to remain who we have been. We don't give ourselves the permission to move forward because we think we have to be in, in that place.

Speaker B: So kind of want the guarantees.

Speaker C: Absolutely. Right.

Speaker B: We know how everything works with where we're at right now. I did want to ask you this. Uh, both you and Tracy, you do a lot of coaching with leaders and often those leaders are already CEOs and leading organization. Often you're brought in because it's kind of like the situation we were talking about earlier where there's a CEO that's retiring and it's like, okay, we have this great pool, but who's ready? Or how do we get one of Them ready to take over. Right? So more than anybody, because of the work that, that, that you all do, you see those transitions, right? Like, you see when somebody might be in a. To the outside world, it looks like they are in a great position, and yet there's something that's just not there, where maybe they have to make the decision to, how many friends have we had that were at a credit union for 20 years or something like that? And to then go, leave, to go lead, when their dream may have always been to lead that credit union they were with, but whether that dream didn't happen or it no longer aligned with where they were, and they're like, no, this is the opportunity I need. Or maybe it's not even to like the decision to be like, I don't want that.

Speaker C: Yeah, I often reference. Hopefully I haven't on the podcast yet because I like to keep my content fresh. But, you know, I've had some conversations that felt like I went through a stent of it. Maybe it had to do with the time of year or something, but coaching executives who, who were really sitting in this place of, uh, should I stay or should I go? And there's this really simple book, really tiny book called the Diploma by Seth Godin. And it essentially just lays out this concept of, you know, we recognize. And I think this is one of the reasons it's hard for people to move on, is because they don't. They don't want to be a quitter. They don't want to be somebody who can't persevere through a difficult patch or overcome an obstacle. And the whole book, the concept is you have to figure out how to recognize whether you're in a dip or you're in a cul de sac. And the diplomatic, you know, the dip, you'll go down and you'll come out of it, and that cul de sac, you'll just keep going around and around and around. And maybe the scenery changes and it gets a little bit better, but then it doesn't again. And maybe the scenery and then there's something else that happens. And so that's not necessarily a tip on how to figure out whether you're in a dip or a cul de sac. But for those leaders who seem to be asking that question, should I stay, should I go? At least giving consideration to is this a rough patch or is this an absolute roadblock?

Speaker B: In this case, too, as you were saying that I'm like, I, uh, feel like a lot of the times we, if we don't Know if we're in a dip or cul de sac. But we're like, looking for clarity and often that clarity doesn't come until we make a change. Like, it's not like it's like here, clarity. And then you go and it's like, oh, exactly like I thought it was going to be. Right. Like, uh.

Speaker C: Or better. Better. Yeah.

Speaker B: It's just. This is amazing. Right? Like, but it's like we have to make movement whether it's in this. Like, us having this conversation doesn't mean that you're like, quitting your job, leaving an organization, starting something new completely. But there sure has to be a change even if you're in a place, uh, that like, moving forward is an option. If it's not, then you better. In my mind at least. And I'm not an executive coach, so take this for what it's worth. But if it's not like you have to create that forward movement or you're gonna feel stuck. And there's no getting out of that unless we make a decision to, to continue moving forward.

Speaker C: So, yeah, growth requires evolution. But you can't stay stuck. You can't remain exactly who you were five years ago or 10 years ago. It's just not healthy. Plus, it's boring too.

Speaker B: Hm. A little more curiosity than that. I think people tend to underestimate what they're capable of in the moment. I think some of those scenarios we create for ourselves may be the worst case scenarios that may be the. That this is going to be painful, this is going to be whatever. And uh, I don't know. Personally, I've found over the years that generally tends not to be that painful. Once you make the decision right, there's always the agonizing over a decision. But once the decision is made, you know, pretty quick, if you made the right decision and it normally feels really good. Right. Like, yeah. And that next chapter doesn't mean we have to know everything right away.

Speaker C: Yeah. Well, and that's what most meaningful decisions do happen before the answers are there. You don't have the clarity until you're. You're through it to the other side with that. And that's where that next chapter can, can get started. If you just trust yourself enough to, to figure things out along the way. It's that cliched statement or you don't need to be able to see all thousand miles of the road trip. Just the headlights will get you there like little bits at a time with that side of it. So, yeah. Um.

Speaker B: One more step, Jelly. One More step.

Speaker C: Let's.

Speaker B: As we kind of move through and we're getting m closer to the end of this one. This was meant to just be a kind of a quick one. Let's talk about the positive side of this conversation. I feel like we've kind of been positive the whole way through. But what becomes possible when leaders move forward?

Speaker C: I'll just say that the reason we've been positive all the way through is because you and I are like change.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker C: Somebody out there who does not love change as much. Just listening for the part where everything falls apart. But no, it's just not us. No, absolutely. So what becomes possible when leaders move forward? Well, a lot. Uh, the first word that comes to mind to me really is that, that lightness. I think that there's a reality. And Tracy Kenyon wrote a great article you might know on CU Inside. Maybe you've heard of that digital publication. Digital publication, um, about kind of the. The what it feels like to be in this liminal space, which is that you're on one side and you'll be on another. And she wrote it specifically when she was sort of waiting for more information about her breast cancer diagnosis and treatment. And being in that space really means you're pulled by two different sides. So you can't just live in the present. It's constantly wondering what's gonna happen with what you've left, what's going to happen with where you're going. And you just have to sit here in this place and wonder. When you move out of that liminal space into that place where you are present, it is the now. You've got that space for creativity, the new ideas, the activation, the growth. And that's where you can move, you can make things happen.

Speaker B: And the energy.

Speaker C: Yeah. Do you hear it? Do you hear my energy? I hear your energy all day long

Speaker B: from four in the morning till midnight. I'm watching you run this, this current schedule you're on. Tansley Stearns would be proud of. Because I do believe that she gets up at like 4:30 from when she was on the podcast a couple times.

Speaker C: That is true. She knows what matters to her and she knows she needs to do it in the morning in order to make sure her day goes how she wants it to. So, yeah, absolutely. I don't know if she stays up until midnight, but I do know, I do know she's an early riser and sometimes they take advantage of that with some early morning texting with her too. That energy, though, I think part of the reason I'm feeling so energetic right now is because I, I do get to put it all in the, in the present tense. That's why I am.

Speaker B: Don't worry everybody. I've made sure she's eating a few times a day. It's been my role this week. Uh, here's food. You have to have a protein shake. You're running.

Speaker C: The listeners don't care what I eat.

Speaker B: No, they want to make sure you're. You're still eating. Oh, I care.

Speaker C: So thank you. You should.

Speaker B: Okay. Anyways, I got off track a little bit there, but I absolutely love that. So the one thing that I, uh, I guess as we kind of wrap through this and we'll have a little bit of fun with some rapid type questions.

Speaker C: We're already having fun.

Speaker B: I know we are, but, uh, that's true is I am such a, ah. Fan. I don't know if that's even the right word, but like that idea that if things aren't lighting you up, if they're not feeling as good, if you were in a position where you absolutely loved what you were doing and suddenly you're. I don't care if you're six months in or you're 20 years in and you no longer love it, it's a drag. We have the capacity, the ability, and if we have the will to change that situation. Right. And making those type of changes, I, I think the first thing everybody notices is the energy that comes back. Anyways, I just. That kind of. As we were moving forward, I've actually been able to watch it in real time this past week. So there's that. And, and I know the feeling too. I've never, I'm like so excited and engaged right now as well too. So it's contagious. And I've watched your zealous team also. Everybody is just lit up, ready to go. You know what I mean? It's like, boy, I wish everybody could have a little bit of. Little drink of that.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's awesome. So this is one of these statements. I'm going to start talking and I hope it ends where I want to, but I haven't prescribed it here, so

Speaker B: we didn't have a big script.

Speaker C: There's an interesting sort of thread I'm pulling on here with this idea and it relates to curiosity and it's this idea that part of what this excitement is. So I'm naturally a very curious person and I think that when I'm on the verge of a transition, I spend a lot of time being curious about what's going to happen to me. And then when I've made the transition now I'm really curious about what I get to create. And I hope you hear the difference in that. This idea of what's going to happen to me versus what am I going to author, what am I going to build? And I don't think there's an autonomous adult human being, maybe even most children out there, who, given the choice, would not choose to be the one who's authoring their future. Instead of waiting to see what's coming

Speaker B: their way, quit what somebody else wants you to do. Yeah, no, that's not it. Yeah. That as we kind of move on, I again just kind of would end with that. Uh, we create the future. Right. It's not waiting for us, like are going to come to us. It's uh, it's something that we create.

Speaker C: Yeah. And if it does come to us, maybe it'll be the one we want, but maybe it won't because we haven't, we haven't driven that.

Speaker B: So yeah, we have to be open to seeing it and accepting that and taking it because it's probably going to look a little bit different than what we thought all the way along.

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker B: Or maybe what we even hoped for at times. Right. It can change. So. All right. Little rapid reflections.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker B: Uh, uh, a sign it might be time for someone to move forward is impatience. Oh, that's true. I'd say energy, you're drained in where you currently are.

Speaker C: All right. A lesson from the past I'll always carry forward is.

Speaker B: Oh, that the, the people around you matter more than the plans you make. It's who you get to deal with, who you get to share the experience with. Right. And allowing that joint experience to grow into what it's going to, to be. One thing leaders need to let go

Speaker C: more often is protecting the status quo.

Speaker B: Ah, protecting, um, what's comfortable.

Speaker C: Same, same. The future gets brighter when leaders choose growth over comfort. Woohoo. Yeah.

Speaker B: Keep growing people.

Speaker A: Keep growing.

Speaker B: The future I'm moving towards is exciting. I agree with that. That's for sure.

Speaker C: And the future you're moving toward is gardening.

Speaker B: Um, more time by the ocean. Who knows?

Speaker C: Discovering what you're curious about next. I guess.

Speaker B: Whatever that happens to be. Whatever little peaceful moments I can find. How about that? Um, but it's sure fun watching you create yours right now. That's much more exciting than what I've got going on. One thing we've ah, learned throughout the season is that purpose isn't static. It evolves. As we do.

Speaker C: And leadership is never about staying exactly where you are, but continuing to grow, learn, and move toward those things that really matter most.

Speaker B: Yeah, if there's one thing I've learned, it's that leadership isn't about holding on forever. It's about knowing when to build, when to sustain, when to when the time comes to step towards whatever happens to me next.

Speaker C: And now it's time for John to queue up the gambler. Um.

Speaker B: Gotta know when to hold them.

Speaker C: That's right. Moving, moving forward, moving ahead. It doesn't diminish what came before. It honors it. Every chapter we go through teaches us something. The season prepares us for another. It helps us to build forward and build on where we've been and take that goal to carry forward what really matters.

Speaker B: So wherever you are today, our dear listeners, whether you're starting something new, ending something, or you're standing somewhere in between, remember this. Moving forward isn't leaving your story behind, and it's not leaving behind what you've created or built. Uh, it's continuing to write your story.

Speaker C: Thank you for joining us for this episode of the CU Insight Experience.

Speaker B: Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music. Nowadays, people listen on Alexa. Good. She didn't hear me. Um, and please share this episode with someone who may need the encouragement to take that next step. And as always, please share your thoughts. Jill's on LinkedIn all the time. So all the time. I actually downloaded it, uh, again for a maybe a day. My guess is it will, like, be taken off my phone again because, you know, who needs that?

Speaker C: That's right. So as you move into your your next step, just remember, the future isn't

Speaker B: behind you, it's in front of you.

Speaker C: Keep moving forward and until next time, take care.

Speaker B: Talk to you soon.

Speaker A: Thanks again to Trellance for sponsoring this episode of the See youe Inside Experience podcast. To find out more about trellence, visit trelance.com.