Courageous Conversations

Karen Frost: Welcome to the Coaching Outcomes Podcast with me, Karen Frost. Two decades ago, I discovered the perfect synergy, drawing on my background as a senior leader and bringing it together with my dedication to seeing people grow and realise their full potential. Since then, there's been no turning back. As an executive and business coach, I found my passion and purpose, my mission to leave a lasting impact on people's lives. Create professionally and often personally too. Join me M as I explore the transformative influence of coaching and leadership development. One conversation at a time. I'll touch on the latest leadership trends, invaluable insights and practical tools by drawing on first hand experiences and, uh, showcasing inspiring stories of those I've had the pleasure to work with or alongside. It's good to have you here.

Katherine Austop: Um, I've observed, talking to a lot of women, a woman will not say, I want to be CEO by the age of 35. A man would say I want to be CEO by the age of 30. A woman will say, I'll see how it goes. You will always feel that you're not doing enough at work or you're not doing enough at all. You've just got to come to terms with it, that you're doing the best you can. It's all right to say that I'm applying for this job and I'm really nervous about it because I don't think I've got the skills. So all the things you hear women saying, if you're open about you having them as well, they realise they're not alone.

Karen Frost: Today I'm talking with Katherine Austop. Katherine and I know each other because of the team development work that I've done with her team, her being a senior leader within her own organisation. Our focus today though is very much around leadership and women because we recognise that both of us have a passion for it. Me as an external consultant working with women and their leadership development and Catherine very much within her own organisation, really mentoring and supporting women below her, um, in terms of their development as senior leaders within her organisation.

Co-host: I really appreciate you doing this with us because we do a whole load of stuff on thought leadership which is very much around our ethos and our values. Both of us are incredibly passionate about supporting and developing women and in particular around their leadership skills. Uh, I'm really interested, Katie, and where this passion comes from for you.

Katherine Austop: If you'd asked me 10 years ago, I would not have had the same passion because I was maybe in a privileged position, but it's been like a dawning of reality. It's like being Woken up, you suddenly look around you and women who are struggling in meetings where it's fully women promotions of men into senior positions. You have that little question from someone, how do you manage your career with a family? And you suddenly realize that there's actually a huge amount out there that still needs to be done. It's given me a lot of energy and it's also, if I'm being honest, I've had a good career. I've been in a place where I could be a woman, I could have my families. I've had a husband that helped me out as we brought the kids up. But I realized that's not the same for everyone.

Co-host: And I think similar to you,

Karen Frost: a,

Co-host: uh, realization that when I was actually in part with senior leadership teams, that I knew there was always a struggle there because, um, the time management has to improve significantly to juggle it all. It was when I transitioned into being a leadership consultant and doing the coaching, the amount of women that I was listening to that were coming back from maternity, for example, or going through the menopause and all of those sorts of different challenges that we have. I was realization actually I need to learn a lot about this.

Katherine Austop: I actually sat there and I used to say to people, I don't know what all of us is about, but then, um, little things like my mother in law would turn around and say to me, it's not fair that your husband has to look after the kids. Or if women weren't working for their careers, then men would have more jobs. You suddenly realized the generational side of it. A lot of women probably get that pressure, uh, at home. Especially when you start to get children and you're the one who isn't at the school of plays, or you suddenly turn up and someone says, oh, we thought you didn't exist. All those little comments that make you start to question yourself. And I think that's the hard bit because I always say to people, there's no such thing as a work life. Fans, you're always going to worry about it. You will always feel like you're not doing enough at work or you're not doing enough at home. You've just got to come to terms with it, that you're doing the best you can. But it's always going to be there. Sharing my experiences, my realizations with other women, supporting other women, telling them I'm, uh, not the only one. It's all right to feel like this. I think even that side of it is really important to me.

Co-host: Absolutely. That understanding and empathy is fundamental, isn't it? Yeah.

Katherine Austop: I think it's not just for the women, it's actually everybody. The men you work with, it's helping them to understand, helping husbands and sons. I've got two boys, male husband and a male dog. I am totally outnumbered at home and at work. But what I want to do is I want my boys to grow up respecting what their wives really want to do. If their wife says, I want to be a stay at home mom, um, that is fine. They should support them in that decision. That is their sense of success. If they say they want to be a senior executive and travel the world, I want them to support them in that as well. So I think to me it's that uh, legacy as well.

Co-host: My son and daughter in law have done that kind of role swap. My son did half the maternity for their two children, for example, and worked part time whilst my daughter in law went back to work. And because of the career progressions, they've gone through the understanding of that. But I hear other people around them saying, how does that work then? That's different.

Katherine Austop: But uh, the pressure is if you've got a young father who is doing that, he faces the same kind of non inclusive environment. If he takes the kids to the playgroups or to all those kind of things, he's seen as being a novelty. Or his colleagues will turn around and say, I don't know how you do it. But they wouldn't say that to a woman. So there's a stomach in language as well, in how society around treats.

Co-host: That is the unconscious bias that we all carry with, isn't it? So we now know why you and I are both passionate about it. So what have you learned about being a senior female leader through your career? Key learning points for you.

Katherine Austop: I think back, it was kind of why did I do it in the first place? Everyone says, how did you drive your career? How did you decide to do this? It was just that one thing led to another. I took opportunities. I think that's maybe something that I've observed talking to a lot of women. A woman will not say, I want to be CEO by the age of 35. A man would say, I want to be CEO by the age of 30. A woman will say, I'll see how it goes. I'll see what happens next. I'll see if I can get those skills, do a bit of training. You feel like you have to be the expert before you get into the role. Whereas I think men tend to be more confident in just taking a Punt on it. Maybe over time I've stepped back a little bit too much. If I look back, I would say that I liked the balance I had. I still managed to be around when my boys were growing up. I still was there for my relationship with my partner. We always said at home we will both make career choices that uh, allow us both to have careers. So it's a partnership. Even if that means one of us has to maybe hold back for a little bit until it's right for everyone. I can say that maybe I didn't step forward early enough, but maybe I just took the right path and I should be happy with that. Uh, so what have I learned? I like having a seat at the table. Sometimes I over worry about what people think of what I say. I've got a northern accent, as you might have noticed. And sometimes I'm very conscious of uh, my colloquialisms, how I come over. I over worry about people's opinions are because I talk a lot so then I shut up too much. So all of these things I've worried about and it's only in the last year or so that I've really come to terms with. That's why I'm there. I am there to be me. I'm there because of what I've got to contribute. I'm there because I've been invited to have a seat at the table. So I shouldn't worry about if I say it with a Georgie accent. That is me, that is my authentic self. But I think the biggest challenge is senior leadership is a very masculine environment. And um, I think that is the hard thing for any woman going into leadership. We try to hide our feminine side, our value based side, our ah, human centric side, because it's not what is seen as leading to success. So that's my experiences is the things that called me back in my head, the little imposter. But also that realization that actually you're there for a reason and you've got something to contribute.

Co-host: I can hear is about being authentic. Because sometimes I've found certainly with coaching various women, that you can almost create a different Persona about yourself. Something that you think is what is needed within an organization rather than actually who you are. So being authentic, even though you might have that bit of an imposter going on, is the way that I think women specifically in senior roles build their credibility when their credibility is high like it is for you within your organization now, uh, with the years that you've done then actually it doesn't matter what Your accent is. It doesn't matter whether you talk too much or too little. It's about people respecting you because you've earned that place at the table. It's important that you're there because there's research that says when you've got a balance at those senior tables, profitability goes up, strategies are delivered better. Um, and the balance is the thing that you're after. You can't come as not being true, Catherine, can you? Otherwise, people will see through it.

Katherine Austop: Exactly. And I think when I first started doing leadership, somebody says, well, you can't be friends with people. And I'm like, but that, uh, isn't who I am. I said, yes. Being friends and liking people and having a good relationship, when you have to make tough decisions, it's even harder if you know those people. But I could never do my job without empathy, without caring, because that drives everything I do. Yes, I work for a company, but if I can do it in a empathetic, caring way. You only do that by getting to know people. Perhaps that caring sense. But as I said earlier in my career, I was advised, oh, you need to distance yourself and be different. And I made a conscious decision to be myself then. So, yeah, I would say. Someone once asked me, what is most important to you? It is to be comfortable in my own skin and to have people respect me for that. But I do realize that not everybody will like you for it. It's any human relationship. And that was hard to come by. I used to feel that if someone was critical of me in a management team and said something negative, that they didn't like me. What I've learned is they didn't like what I was saying. So I think those kind of realizations is when your confidence builds because you manage to separate your personal side from your professional. That really is a learning that I've had as a leader.

Co-host: Expectations of how leaders behave, I think, has changed quite significantly over the last 10 or 15 years. There is a lot more space now for people being themselves than there was. So that advice you got early on in your career probably isn't the sort of advice another woman, younger now, would get.

Katherine Austop: I think yes and no, because there's still a cultural element. One of my favorite books is the Culture Map and How to Lead Across Cultures. That might be very true within certain societies, but in other societies, there's still that huge, uh, expectation. And I think for me, working for a, uh, Norwegian company with that, uh, kind of culture is very different. But I also spoke to someone who had recently Come into the UK and they said the UK is a lot more rigid.

Co-host: I found working in the Far east, particularly in Japan, where that more male hierarchy exists and it's much more difficult. And when you work in the Scandinavian, Nordic countries, you can see quite a difference, can't you? British cultures or American cultures or organizations in terms of different expectations from a leadership perspective, regardless of whether you're male or female, they're still there, aren't they?

Katherine Austop: One of the things that really drives me a bit crazy is how women are judged on how they look, how women are judged on what they wear. I don't think you get that same scrutiny in men, and that's the same in a Scandinavian culture. You go to certain countries where unless you're wearing heels and power suits, you're not seen as successful. So I think there are a lot of overprints here in terms of how women are treated differently in leadership positions or judged differently. Yeah.

Co-host: We can't change those cultures overnight. And it's about working with them but still being authentic to yourself, which is where we started with all of this.

Katherine Austop: And I use the analogy of a chameleon. A chameleon is still a chameleon. It just changes its color to fit in with the environment. But the fundamental values have to be the same. If I can do something and I am, um, in tune with my own value system, then that's fine. I go into a teams meeting and my accent is slightly different than if I'm sitting in a bar or in a restaurant.

Co-host: Yeah.

Katherine Austop: And the reason for that is it's easier for people to understand and hear me. That's not me pretending I'm not a Geordie.

Co-host: So I like that analogy, though, of the chameleon. Chameleon is still a chameleon, regardless. It's just blending in a little bit more to be understood, to be appreciated, to hold that credibility. I talked about earlier, uh, someone thinking about your organization. How do you think that you've influenced this agenda, both in your own organization? Because, again, on LinkedIn, I can see that there is a lot of visibility around that as well.

Katherine Austop: About five or six years ago, I realized that we didn't have a women's network and I wanted to be part of one. So I said to the country manager, would you mind if I set one up? We have, uh, a global group across the world, but there are local charters, and we didn't have one in the uk. So I set up a group. We had some women. They've grown in terms of the style. We Started off at a few panel events. We then did a bigger event where we invited a speaker. I also got involved in the women's health group in Norway and contributed to that. And that really was focusing initially on the menopause. And we had a teams call and there was over 300 women on that call.

Co-host: Wow.

Katherine Austop: Uh, and what was really amazing, it was like someone had opened the doors and all these people were sharing all of these things. And I realized, you know what? I've been through the menopause and I've never spoken up about it. I've lied to my boss when I said I couldn't go on a field trip because I was having a really bad kind of period. Instead of saying I was having a bad period and I couldn't go, I actually told him I had a stomach cuff sex. I didn't want to embarrass them, which is ridiculous. How that psychological safety I didn't feel I had. And I was probably misjudging him. He's probably got a wife and daughters and probably knew exactly what I was talking about. So it really opened me up. And I realized then that I had something that I could share internally and externally. And that's when I started to get a bit more visible on LinkedIn. To begin with, it took me an hour to two hours to write every post because I was so self conscious of what people would say, how people would judge me, whether I would get bad comments back. That was my step into the external. And then eventually I just stopped to think. I'm just going to see what I think. I'm just going to share how I feel, what I want to say. I think then I became more authentic on LinkedIn, I managed to take my authentic desires internally and translate them externally. So that was the first step in saying, I'm, um, actually going to be a bit brave here, but courageous. One of the reasons I did that is because I had a voice. I am a leader, a senior leader. I am a woman who's gone through all these things. I've had my family, my career, I've been through the menopause. If I can't talk about it, who can? When someone, all you need is one person say, wow, I'm so glad that you said that. Uh, it just feels so good. You've made an impact on someone who you don't even know and you've made them feel better. And that to me, when you talk about what's the passion, those little, uh, moments, or it's someone somewhere out there saying, I read this LinkedIn post. I don't even know the name of the lady, but she said something that really made a difference to me, that is a sustainable impact on someone out there. And that makes me smile. It makes me feel warm inside. My boss then asked me to do a panel on something more to do with geology. I was terrified. Not a panel in front of all those people. And in a few weeks, I'm going to be doing a panel on, um, diversity and inclusion at an event. So it's growing in that sense. A member of the International Women's Forum, a group of fantastic women who actually intimidate me a little bit because they're all so amazing. A definite imposter syndrome moment when I heard all these people talking about the board positions and all that. And then also I'm on this powerful women's energy coalition, which is all these CEOs, and I'm there to support the country manager. Listening to all these people talking about equity and equality, it's really building, I feel. There's so much excitement, many things to talk about, so much to learn. I feel as if I'm at that next phase of how I can make a difference. So that's where it all come from. And then culminated in getting approval internally to do some videos on talking to women about various things like Parenthood and women in stem, women in technology, all those kind of things, just making an impact. It's something I can walk away from and feel incredibly proud of.

Co-host: This is so important, isn't it? I know that. I can hear that you're having to put yourself out of your comfort zone a little bit with this, and there's internal voice cutting, but actually, you're doing it. The better we are as role models then, in terms of younger women actually saying, katherine can do it, and I can see Catherine there doing that, then I can do that. And that's what they need. We are so short within STEM industries of senior female role models. That's the challenge that we've got. And the more that we can get there, the more that we've got them, the more it becomes easier for women that are following us to be able to achieve as well.

Katherine Austop: Uh, it's true. About four years ago, I got this new job, and it was in a totally new part of the technology sector. I sat in my first few meetings and I was like, oh, my goodness, I don't understand a word they're saying. All the acronyms. I was nodding. And I went through two meetings like this. Eventually, I went to one of My team. I went, okay, I don't know about this. Can you take me through this step by step and show me pictures? She said to me about six months later, it was so good to see someone who actually admitted they didn't know something and be able to help bring them on. So it also maybe showing women. It's all right to say, I don't know. It's all right to say that. I'm applying for this job, and I'm really nervous about it because I don't think I've got the skills. So all the things you hear women saying, if you're awkward about you having them as well, they realize they're not alone, but also that you can overcome this and move forward. So that, to me, is being very honest. That's the authentic side. And it's not all perfect. I didn't just step into these jobs. I didn't have this amazing career trajectory that I aim to do, and I've followed it step by step. The best jobs I've had are the ones I probably wouldn't have applied for. I just said yes.

Co-host: It's having the support around you and the confidence to be able to say yes when you're asked, isn't it?

Katherine Austop: And I've had some very good leaders who've said that to me. And yet, if you look back retrospectively, who are the people who've influenced you? I can look at it, and I've got male leaders who have really been ambassadors and allies in my career, and they've made a difference. I've had female leaders as well who really inspired. And I've, uh, been in awe of because of how they come over. I've looked at what they do and maybe mimicked some of those things. So the role model bit is important then. I've had people who work for me who are leaders, who really inspire me m as well, because I think, wow, I can learn so much from the next generation coming up as well.

Co-host: It's that humility about wanting to learn. What are one or two things that you think new women in new leadership positions need to do from your experience?

Katherine Austop: I always say to someone, just take time to listen and watch. If you're coming into a new team or tribe, you need to get the lay of the land. And then for me, it's about, how can I impact this? Where can I fit in? Who are the networks that, uh, I need to build?

Co-host: Yes.

Katherine Austop: Even if you're the individual woman in a team, you can still form allies who have skills and things like that. Because feminine skills aren't exclusive to women. You can have men who have the value based and that. So absolutely. So you form, even if you're alone, you can form allies by taking those diversity elements within a team. Who are, uh, the people that you turn to for support? If you've got an idea and you're getting pushback, who do you know is going to be on your side, but also who are the opposites? I'm so red on the scale. I am this kind of person. I'm, um, strategy and people. I'm very low on the process. And I had someone in the team who was 95% process and 5% red. And this person would make me sit back in my seat. I was intimidated by the difference of this person because he impacted my emotions and he didn't care that he impacted my emotions. And I struggled with this. And I would worry about what I'd said. I'd, uh, worry about this relationship. And it went on and on. How it pulls down in the pit of my stomach. I was like, I'm gonna say it. I'm gonna have a lot of courage. You know. I'd like to tell you how your personality impacts my personality. When you talk to me and say something negative, I don't wanna talk to you ever again. And he was like, oh, I didn't realize that. But I'd probably walk out the room and don't care. And the minute we'd had that discussion, we've got a really good relationship because he understands how I feel. He said, I understand how he feels. He then we actually get the best of both worlds because we're constructively disagreeing. Sometime it is about knowing yourself as a leader and working out how to make it work for you. It's that chameleon thing again. You look at the room, taking the

Co-host: time to understand the personalities and the situation and being humble about things is an important part or good advice that you would give to new female leaders.

Katherine Austop: Sometimes as a new leader, you think you're the only one who is the misfit, or that you're trying to adjust a lot if you build your confidence. That comes with time and experience.

Co-host: My one big advice has always been to never be without a mentor. It might be formal or informal, but somebody within the organization, ideally offline, that is there. Uh, certainly with the women I've coached, the minute that we sort out with them somebody ideally female, that's higher up in the organization, that they can seek out to talk to and understand that their approach to leadership and, um, the managing of their careers changes quite significantly. Is there any one last thing that you would say to a, uh, female leader that you think, let me think.

Katherine Austop: I said, don't be afraid to speak up when you're there. When you asked me to do this podcast, the imposter on my shoulder was going, oh, don't do it. Nobody's gonna be interested. All those negative voices are very loud. So sometime I say, now, say yes quickly, and then worry about it, because then you move more into a problem solving mode than a running away mode. So if your boss turns around and says, anyone want to volunteer to do this? Say yes. It's a learning opportunity.

Karen Frost: Okay.

Katherine Austop: Then I say to myself, person on my shoulder, which I always say is a man, says to me, why did you say yes? And it's a lot easier to shut that voice up when you've committed to something and you know that there's a good reason for it. It's in line with your purpose in life. I recently did some training, and it was a lot of self management and understanding yourself. I've got my compass. I want to make a sustainable impact on others. And if I can do that by saying yes to something, then I know I will get a lot from that and so will someone else.

Co-host: How do you then get people to follow you?

Katherine Austop: That's the hard bit. You get a lot of people who want to follow you, but often people haven't got time to do stuff. And I think that's the biggest frustration about something like this. When you've got so much energy for something and you really want to do something and people are kind of lagging behind. And I think I've realized that you sometimes have to slow down a little bit. You have to take people with you slowly. You have to acknowledge that you may not get 10 people at one meeting, you might get two. You need to identify who are the people, who are your partners that are going to push it forward. And recently we said, let's do a video for International Women's Day. Everyone was talking about, let me just do it on the phone so we can get some volunteers. Loads of ideas. Everybody really wants to do something. And it was like, who's gonna lead this? And it was really hard. Then we decided that we were gonna actually go to somebody who was really passionate about this and ask them to coordinate it, give them a budget. It's been phenomenal. Once you give someone a task and, um, empower them to do it, then you're supporting them in letting them take over. My biggest problem is that I want to stay involved because I'm so passionate about it. But actually sometime it's passing the bat on so somebody else can grow in that role is better than doing it yourself. I feel a parental pride at the videos we've put out because somebody has coordinated it for us. They've done a fabulous job. I've seen how they've been impacted by the whole experience and I just see how much positive feedback they've had and that to me is a real win. So I think in terms of following it is about the authenticness again, having the energy and it's having the time to spend people and talk about it really important.

Co-host: Hm. So, ah, authenticity, energy and your time management.

Katherine Austop: Time management, yeah. Consider you better at that.

Co-host: I really appreciate you doing this with me today, Katherine. Thank you very much for that. Thank you.

Karen Frost: Thank you so much for listening to this coaching outcomes podcast with me, Karen Frost. I hope you enjoyed it. Take care and goodbye for now.