How Vulnerability Beats Authority in Workplace Safety Culture with Lori Elam

I want you to know that this is what I learned from it and people having the ability going, okay, well she talked about a failure, but boy, I can certainly speak up about one and how we understand that we're human, we have the best of intentions, but sometimes we mess up. Welcome to the Canary Report, the podcast where risk leaders, safety professionals and operational executives come for real world stories and smarter strategies to keep people safe. I'm your host, Michael Zao. In each episode, I sit down with exceptional leaders who are transforming how risk and safety are managed. Whether you're a leader of a nationwide EH&S program in a high risk industry or you champion workplace safety across 200 retail locations, this podcast is for you. Let's get into it. Welcome to the Canary Report, the podcast where risk leaders, safety professionals and operational executives come for real world stories and smarter strategies to keep people safe. I am Michael Zao. I'm the CEO and founder of Yellowbird. Today I am delighted to have Lori Elam and Lori is a, it says a seasoned, although you don't seem seasoned, but you are an environmental, health and safety professional with 20 years of experience in biotechnology, pharmaceuticals and other industries. Your journey in quality control, you've had such a great strong foundation. You have been involved in so many risk programs over your years. You also manage everything from radiation and biosafety compliance to CAL OSHA to NRC to DEA regulatory submissions. You've done a ton of stuff and I am just thrilled that you are here and thank you for joining us. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. So first and foremost, which I always love to do, I believe we are a human to human industry and this podcast is about the human beings behind the podcast. And so I want to find out about you, Lori, and your journey and your family. I don't know if you're married and kids and all that good stuff and I'd love to just hear about you as a human being first and foremost. Thank you very much, Michael. Well, I'm a Californian, went to school here, started my career maybe a little bit on the east coast, but I realized I am of California and I couldn't shovel that much snow in upstate New York. But I set roots in the San Francisco Bay area in the late 90s and started in quality control as you mentioned, and it was a microbiology major with a public health concentration coming out of Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. So science was part of my blood, my identity. I really enjoyed living up there. It was sort of the dot com era And a lot of my friends and colleagues, we just had a lot of fun. It was just a great time. A lot of startups. In fact I did start up at a smaller company and a lot of that ride was a lot of overtaken acquisitions and things of that nature. And my first sort of larger company was Gilead in Foster City. And shortly after I had moved over to the East Bay where I worked at Burlex Laboratories and then they were bought out by Bayer. So around that time I got married to somebody I met in college but it was sort of right before graduation. My husband Matt Elam, he's a past in our local area and we moved down to his hometown area here at Thousand Oaks shortly after our first couple years of marriage and to start our family just couldn't afford those Bay Area price. It's not that Thousand Oaks is inexpensive so I live and work here at Thousand Oaks. Every once in a while I ride my bike. It's about four miles. It's beautiful. I wish I could turn my camera around but I'm looking out at the Kaneo open space. I can see the Santa Monica Mountain range on behind me. It's a really beautiful place. So Matt and I have two boys, they are 18 and 16 now so I feel like yay me. I raised an adult, I made a big milestone and they enjoy sports, we all enjoy sports and being in the great outdoors. So part of my career I started again as I mentioned in, in the quality side but there was a little something called 911 that really stirred something in me to take a greater opportunity to get out from behind my microscope and help people. So I don't know if you recall we were talking about dating ourselves but you know, suspicious packages and that type of thing. So coming up with programs for that, looking at security in a whole new light. So I really stepped out into EHS formally at that time and I guess it's actually been more like 25 years so you know, haven't looked back. But I think about ehs. I always call it like I'm an ambassador to so many different types of people, different stakeholders and I'm about a mile wide but an inch deep. But I know a lot. Right. You mentioned some of my credentials but when it comes to EPA and stormwater protection too, I have a great team of people around me and I really lean on my network quite a bit. So I'm pleased to work in this industry. As you mentioned, we're all connected. I always think about our actions being a little pebble in a Pond and that ripple effect, it affects the planet, affects our society, and it probably comes back and circles back to you too. Wow, that is a journey, first and foremost. And congratulations on not only raising an adult who I remember my son's 21 now and as of two days ago, so he just turned 21. My daughter is 16 and as I believe your son is 16 and new driver, I don't know if your son is driving or not. Yeah, he had recent knee surgery so he can't use his knee yet. But he's got the testing part done. We're almost there. Almost there. It's a very different world when that happens. You're a mini empty nester, as it were, because you're no longer a taxi. And it is a very different feeling, I have to admit. My wife and I, my daughter's 16 and my son's 21 and we don't have to worry about, well, who's going to pick her up and well, what time is XYZ dance or whatever else. I'm sure you still do your risk assessments where they're come in and go like your risk assessor at us never leaves us. No, it does not. By the way, I think I mentioned this in our pre call a few weeks or months ago that I have family in Thousand Oats in Camarillo. I used to actually, when I was a little boy, used to spend a lot of time there. My grandparents lived in Camarillo in Leisure Village, which is not too far from you. So yeah, I actually have roots there as well. I'm from Southern California as well. There's a mean pickleball that happens at Leisure Village, I'll tell you that much. Yeah, that's what I hear. It's a mean pickleball. I love it. So one of the things that I really want to dig into a little bit. There's so many things I want to dig into, but the main thing I want first and foremost is tell us about your company and kind of the things that you're responsible for in your current role. I know that you've gone through a whole broad gamut of different coverages, but what are you doing today and what does your company do? Sure. Most of my background in the San Francisco area was in R and D. And so where I am now it's a global manufacturing site for Takeya pharmaceuticals. It's a 244-year-old company, so it started out of Osaka, Japan. So when I think about seeing the lobby of founders, you sometimes think of a black and white photo of a founder. Ours is like an empirical Japanese painting of Chobei Takeda because it goes so far back. So it's really cool to be kind of rooted in that origin. And if you know the Japanese culture, integrity, reputation, perseverance, these values are just so interwoven. In fact, that led to Chobei Takeda's success early on he was sort of like an herbalist in an apothecary market. And he was renowned for having very fair trade and having pure ingredients. And it's interesting going back to my quality roots. So, so much of what we know in pharma now is the separation of quality from manufacturing. So it's like checks and balances. But that really started with Takeda. So it's one of the things that we're really proud about is that it's just sort of industry standard now. And once upon a time, somebody had to make that decision to do the right thing and not really worry about profit. So in my day to day here in Thousand Oaks, we do support manufacturing. We're part of the biologics operating unit. So large molecule, that sort of smaller API, small molecule type of pharmaceuticals. We primarily are serving those in the rare blood disease market. So those who have different forms of hemophilia, specifically products that are trying to replace what's called Factor 8, there's some variations of Factor 9. So if we have a normal blood clotting ability, you have this factor in your body, we often take it for granted. But these hemophiliacs, they basically are missing this. So. So what they do is we take this protein, we scale it up, we refine it, formulate it, and they're able to take it in prophylactically before they get a bleed and have a normal healthy life. And it's a very fascinating disease. And a lot of, what do you call it, NGOs or advocacy groups are helping patients understand this journey because it's just a small, small sliver of the population. So being in the rare disease market is very rewarding. Yes. Oh, I imagine so. You're from a quality perspective. You had mentioned during our initial call, help me a little bit translate quality. And you had a CGMP principles and what it means into modern safety practices. How does that work? Well, the GMP environment is very regulated. And so not only in the FDA here in the United States, but, but we have ministries of health in Europe, in Mexico, Brazil, throughout the world. So we have inspectors coming in at all times of year to look at their specific rules of how we manufacture our product. So what I appreciate from a safety perspective is it's very repeatable. Same types of work throughout the organization. Every once in a while we'll have a technology transfer, so we have to come in and really break that down, a new process. But for the most part, we understand our industrial ergonomics. These are clean room environments. So often bringing in instance to sample for IH is something that we need to be following the rules for cleaning things and that nature. Do you do that yourselves? Do you guys have industrial hygienists on staff or do you use third parties? We have a SME on the team. We have a qualitative tool that we use in house. Luckily, Takedar have some of these models in house where we can sort of do the rough understanding. And then when we dial it and know that we need to have detailed data collection, then we'll work with a consultant. It's more cost effective for us. So we'll go through that process too. And then on the wastewater and the waste side, a lot of those waste streams are very predictable too. So making sure that our sampling for we have a large waste utilization system, all the suites feed into that. And we're actually last on the grid to Hill Canyon Wastewater Treatment Plant, which is sort of down the way towards Camarillo. And so having a very, very close relationship with our regulators is very important. So we're an open campus. We're constantly not only hosting regulators from the EHS side, but also from the FDA and other third parties who are doing audits for our facility. So we're a team. The customer is the patient at the center of everything that we do. And so sometimes I translate the planet people and partners in another patient perspective is we're just trying to make sure that people are healthy and we're safe. Well, it's so interesting to me because I have these conversations and I find that there's a through line. No matter whether you're in heavy construction or mining for copper, or you're moving around crops, or you're manufacturing and distributing very dirty product or going in very clean room environments. In pharmaceutical that the human aspect of making sure that we are paying attention to the people that we are impacting. It's actually quite refreshing with all the divisiveness of the world right now, that in our world of EHS and safety and quality, you have a fundamental feeling of doing the right thing because you are meant to do the right thing. Not because you have to, not because the regulations tell you to. Yes, it keeps you. They still need to make sure you meet and exceed those. But it's not the reason we get up in the morning, nobody wakes up and say, great, I'm going to go make sure I meet the 1901 standard. It's like, no, that doesn't, you know, that's not. Unless you're very strange. Perhaps there is somebody who feels that way, but I certainly am not. So let me ask you this from a day to day practices situation. Now, how many facilities are you responsible for? So right here at Thousand Oaks we have one plant. It's actually comprised of two building areas. So we are at the end of Rancho Canal Boulevard, that's our primary site. And about a mile away we have another facility where we have our large warehouse. That's where we have our raw materials received. And we also have a device manufacturing suite there as well. So I mentioned those, that kind of prophylactic administering of our product. That's where that device assembly actually takes place. Place over there. So on the day to day I'm in the field performing what we call gemba, which is a Japanese term for being of value in the field. It was actually a term that started in the auto industry and it's understanding. Right. I don't want to be seen as an inspector, I do have that hat. But when I do a gemba, I'm really making sure that I'm understanding the process. Do I understand the fundamentals here? Are we winning the day? Are we having things that are coming up? What are the things that are getting in your way that you're not able to resolve and how can I walk away with bringing some resolution to that area? So as a part of the senior leadership team where about 13 individuals here reported to the site head and I do have the EHS responsibility. However, I also have a cost of goods responsibility. Making sure that supply chain management is happening effectively, that the running of the business is as efficient as possible and even from data and digital technology that our tools are working for us. So that is my tenant. And again, when you talk about being a mile wide, it even stretches me further to understand how everything connects together. So I think that's been the enjoyable part. It's been 11 years for me here at this location and knowing people by name is something I'm very proud of and understanding how I can protect them even though they may not even realize the programs and the controls that are protecting them. On the day to day we. When I see a dad in the electrician's team and is at the soccer field, I look at his kids. And I'm like, I keep your dad safe. We're doing the best for him. Right. And you talk about things that keep you up at night. I hope that myself and for my team is that our enthusiasm and our drivers to get us up out of bed and jump into the day far outweigh what keeps us up at night. That's the balance, right? Yeah. I love that. I think it says a lot about your company. It says a lot about you and I think it's a wonderful thing. Is global headquarters still enjoying Japan? Yeah, there's actually Tokyo. Japan is a headquarter in their sort of western hemisphere one in the Cambridge area. So Massachusetts is a greater Bosnian area, sort of the US headquarters. We also have an upper one in Europe, which is Zurich, Switzerland. So Zurich has a tremendous presence in the US if we were to travel, have global conferences, we're often meeting in the Cambridge area. Well, that's a bummer. It'd be much more fun to go to Zurich. I went to Zurich, but it was in the dead of winter and it's still very beautiful. But like I said, I couldn't even make it in New York State, so. Yeah, and you say upstate. Where were you in upstate New York? In Saratoga Springs, sort of distant between Montreal, Boston and New York. It is a beautiful part of the country during the summer. Yeah. One horse track races, winters is part of that Vermont snow belt. I had a Toyota 4Runner and I'd have to shovel it out beneath the snow early morning and that was tough times. Yeah, I would not have. I have not a farewell. My wife's family's all from Syracuse and so upstate New York. And so there's a lot of snow there and many of them moved to Arizona, where I live now. So it's a common affair to see people getting away from the snow. It's definitely not for the faint of heart. So from a initiatives perspective, are each of your facilities kind of running in their own ecosystem or do you take guidance from the Cambridge facility? Do you have other facilities like yours that are besides Cambridge across the United States or how does that operate? Yeah, well, so we have what we call our strategic initiatives. So things like our planet objectives, those are very outward facing, being net zero by a certain time frame. Scope one and two emissions, all of those types of things, those have to be delivered on. And so we have what we call an operating unit within global manufacturing supply. And again I'm in the biologics manufacturing unit. We've got plasma and small molecule gastroenterology. Different facets of the business and we all roll up into that Takeda executive leadership team. And so every year they'll set their objectives and they'll sort of cascade on down to sites. And we certainly do that catch ball exercise every fiscal year. From there, we also add in our own objectives to bring us the success that we want from a site perspective. For example, we want to be the formulation filling kind of center of excellence in our future. So we do everything from the soup to nuts. We scale up the product and then we formulate, fill it and then package it at the end. And that's a very unique situation at our plant. So we want to have those certain capabilities so we can get new products coming in to our location. So we do have oversight within the Biologics leadership team. So we'll have business reviews a couple times a year. One is virtual, one is in person and we'll have that understanding of like, are we performing as we expected? If not, what are the challenges? How do we get ahead, that type of thing. Interesting. So when the product from your other facility next door a mile away is manufactured and distributed, do you actually run through like you have a distribution facility there or where you have, you know, boxing and packaging and forklifts and trucks and all that stuff that you're also responsible for? Yes. So the supply chain has two warehouses where we have sort of on demand warehouse here at the facility where I reside and then again that main larger warehouse a mile away up the street. So we will have cold boxes that need to be temperature controlled for our final product and then we'll actually distribute that to a third party. It's usually someplace in the middle of the country so it can be deployed at the different locations throughout the globe from the right time. So. Right. We're just trying to make sure that you have your meeting expectations for delivery to a certain geography and also making sure that you're not going to be in an expired situation. Right. So making sure things are. If supply chain is just so fascinating, I'm definitely can never learn it off. It is. I had somebody on from Tyson Foods at one point on the podcast and he was talking about the temperature controls literally from where the poultry and the chickens and cows and so forth are all the way through to the table and how they can control the. They literally have tags and they manage that process. Do you do similar things in your controlling of temperature and quality from the point of beginning to end and all the way through to that distribution facility? Yeah, throughout the network we have sort of the Baton. Right. And the relay race that we're running here to get production. So while the product is in our care, all of those responsibilities are under us. It's called sort of a deviation or that could potentially lose an entire lot. Although we might create the drug substance here, it may be formulated at a different site depending on the product we're talking about, or finished in the final packaging at another one. So when we hand it over, our job is done. If somebody downstream were to have a failure with temperature control or something like that, it would actually hit their location for the cost for the lost lot. So we are one team. We want everybody to be successful. We want to have a handover, be as clean and an ample time so that nobody incurs something that we are sort of did flawed in the process. So that is our responsibility. And you talk about that Tyson reference. And although it's not my ultimate responsibility, Takeda has what we call a sustainability by design. So where they're sourcing their paper goods. Right. Are we making sure that that paper isn't from deforestation locations? Making sure that the emissions for the transportation are being tracked appropriately, even if it's a third party supplier for our raw materials, like salt is a very common ingredient for the buffers that we make. Making sure that the people are getting paid fair wages and they're working in a SAF environment, have gender equity tenants, those types of things. That's all that part of that ripple effect I was talking about. You think it's just cheapest decision? No, no, no. These are have bigger impact. So that holistic point of view for manufacturing, it is part of our responsibility. Sounds like your culture is very symbionic and I think that's very rare in today's world. I think you're kidding yourself if you think you're hitting the mark. And I think if you talk to a company who touts that they've. All right, I think there's some flubbing there. But that's what we strive for. That's the aim. Right. And that's that continuous push right along the way. So I'm very, very proud. Obviously you could tell I'm proud to work here. I love that. I hope that people on my team feel the same way about where we are. And it's a special thing to be able to feel proud of what you do. So you don't have to travel much. It sounds like. It sounds like you're in the same location a fair amount. Yeah. Every once in a while there might be an audit, an internal Audit that I might be able to have a certain perspective on. And I can sort of not only help somebody identify opportunities that could be a future violation or a safety injury issue, I can also glean some of the best practices from another sister site and bring them back to my plant. So those are one of the kind of more exciting travel opportunities. And then every once in a while to be able to get with my own EHS organization from a leadership perspective, will collect a global conference and really dig into some of the bigger themes as a leadership team. How many sites do you guys have in the U.S. in the U.S. we have a mix from the different biologic sites. So just off the top of my head, my closest site is in a different operating unit, but that's in the Glendale area in Los Angeles. And then we have Minnesota, Brooklyn Park, Lexington, Massachusetts, Covington, Georgia. There is also Round Lake, which is in the greater Chicago area. And I think those are the biggies. So that's the. Yeah, it's pretty spread out. And it sounds like you guys, you know, you collaborate, but you do run separate as far as in primary daily function. But like I said, we all have the same parts, we have the same processes. So a lot of the times we can just talk apples to apples. We also have systocytes within Switzerland and other parts of Europe. And sometimes it's a little bit tougher to translate, but essentially the same process each. Yeah, it's true. The reason I bring it up is because it's very rare to find somebody in your role and in companies that are as global as yours, that aren't living on airplanes all the time. And it's one of the things that I talk about a fair amount on here is you said that your husband's a pastor and that you've got a relationship with your kids, soccer fields and so forth. And a lot of people in this industry, they have to sacrifice that and often to do things that they could otherwise find somebody else to do, you know, be able to have a good quality source. And I just find it to be sad for so many of our EHS comrades who, you know, they're five days a week on airplanes and they're always behind because they are doing everything themselves. And it's just culturally a tough thing to navigate. And it's also tough on people's families to have that. Yeah, well, you talked about helping a 21 year old. I'm kind of navigating career decisions with my 18 year old. And it's like you put a dollar amount on having the Time with your family, what have you. And for those who have made decisions to lead an industry and have their community or their family unit be able to reach out, I mean, if that's what drives you and that's your focus, then that's where you should be. Exactly. I actually started at this job at my location as a temp because when I moved from San Francisco down here again, I stayed home with the kitties. I had a second one shortly after we moved here and everyone just thought I started working for Amgen up the street. But I was doing the part time job work and then I saw this job posting come up and I'm like, wow. I used to be almost in a director at my previous role, came in as a specialist and then found myself back in this position. But I'm proud of that. Right. Like the ability to climb the ladder and also have the ability to ride my bike and be at the soccer games, flex my time. It is a huge joy. Well, it's more of a testament to you than anything else that you know, you did what you wanted to do for your family and you rose back through the ranks when you came back into that environment. I think that's, it's so commendable. It's a vocation. There's not that term isn't used very often anymore, but safety, taking care of the planet, having this EHS hat, it's a rare breed and we have different leadership styles. Certainly people can seem tough copy. But you got into this because you care for people. That's it. Of course, absolutely. And do you have any anecdotal or actual, if not anecdotal, examples of cool programs that you've put in place that you're proud of that may be interesting to our listeners? And the reason I ask, while you're thinking about it for a moment, is every now and then I'm on one of these calls and I ask that question and somebody will this gentleman earlier, I'm not going to give it away because it's not released yet, but he gamified the safety program in a really, really cool and innovative way. And I was thinking I don't ask everybody the question. So now I'm going to start by saying is have you found a way of kind of engaging the teams into your best practices? It was in a similar vein, but it's that incentivizing safety and speak up culture. So one of the tougher anecdotes I have is from construction projects. So we're certainly expanding. And my bread and butter is daily operations, not crane picks, not confined space entry or these major, you know, two story buildings with excavation. So we were really struggling with our third party contractor management team, struggling with speaking up about unsafe conditions, leaning into opportunities for improvement and solid investigations to finding root cause. So we decided to have more of that reward process when people are doing things well. So we would have ticket opportunities, do a raffle, and then we'd give away big swag, you know, gift cards. It was like a nice lunch and we'd have tacos or something outside, beautiful sun weather. And then we would be have the opportunity to not only have people receive those, but speak into failures. So I'm a big fan of, I've heard the term before, like failure Friday, like I messed up, right? I want you to know that this is what I learned from it. And people having the ability going, okay, well she talked about a failure, but boy, I can certainly speak up about one and how we understand that we're human, we have the best of intentions, but sometimes we mess up. And as long as we can kind of get that off the plate and not have to, you know, scrub it off later on through so much, you know, kind of sweeping things under the rug, all the better. So I'm try to lean in with my own vulnerability in places where I've messed up. And usually that helps break down the walls and have people lean in to say, okay, I don't think she's out to get me. I think she's here to actually help. Well, it's funny, we do a lot of construction work, confined space, fall protection, lockout, tagout, all sorts of different things on sites like that. And the thing that I'm very focused on, a lot of companies don't have their own templates when we go out. And so they want us to provide a template. And so I'll always say that the objective of any standardized template is to find the good, find all the good things to highlight and be honest about the things that need improvement. But there's no need to go in with a stick. You can absolutely be highlighting all the carrots around and all the wonderful things that people are doing. And you know what? Then they'll take the feedback on maybe the lockout tagout's not as solid as it should be, or maybe you need to get some of these forklift drivers certified because they're not certified, things like that. But everything else you're doing is wonderful. And Here are the 25 other things that we found that you guys are nailing. It's such a mindset. Yeah. And to bookend the incentive program is you have to have a standout sometimes. And there's no playbook that we received on having to do a stand. But down. We know they're hardcore. We know they're kind of like a cold shot of water in the face. But how do you do that effectively, and how do you do it with respect and get your objective taken care of where this issue isn't coming back around? So I've learned that along the way, especially as a female. I don't know. Do you remember, like, the movie academy with. There's the woman with the bullhorn, and she's got the highborne. Like, guys, listen. Sometimes I remember myself in my early career, and I think about that's the kind of muted power that I thought that's all I got. But no, no, no. Over time, I realized these large construction guys were all the same heartbeat inside. And so just kind of breaking down those barriers. And also when I mentioned those gembas they have, they've seen me around before. It's not me just coming out of an office every three months to have a visit. They know my reputation is consistent. And if you're a Brene Brown fan, I am good. All right. That marble jar of trust. Right. That you're putting in those marbles, then over time, when the counting comes down, they know that I've been there with them. And that's again, when we talk about issues with understanding or collaboration, it's like, you know, what, have you stopped IMing? Have you just gone and just talked to the person in 3D and had a human conversation? Those work wonders. They really do. And technology can be so misconstrued. And take it from a guy who runs a technology company. I mean, you know, we just recently did a deployment. We did 251 locations. We did surveys at all of them in 71 days. And we crushed it. We did great at five stars. Customer was happy. Everybody was thrilled. But the one thing that I know that we did is we made phone calls to each site when they were done just to make sure they were okay. And it's not that hard. We didn't have to. I mean, the system worked. You know, we can deploy very qualified people very quickly. But making the phone call just to check in to say, all right, I know you gave us good, but anything you want to tell us? And. And it's amazing if you take that time to do that, how much of a difference it makes. And I would say that the time is Money mindset is really a wrong mindset that most companies need to kind of get. Yes, we all understand efficiency is important. But you know what's really money is not spending the time, you know, not spending the time to be safe, not spending the time to have quality. Like not spending the time to check in on your customer and your fellow human. And talk about expensive can be really expensive if you don't do that. Yeah. And how are we growing if we're not asking for feedback? And I used to tremendously fearful of that. I think a lot of people please of me, you know, firstborn kid, the family, all those and then leaning in and going, that's right, that's accurate. I actually have heard that before. Right. And doing something with it. Because if we're not growing ourselves and we're not going to be doing that same best effort for the programs that we work on. Well, it's funny, you kind of remind me a bit of my wife. She's a tiny little lady. She's not even 5ft and she barely weighs 100 pounds. And she's the scariest person I know. And I know very, very big people who feel the same way. She's just got a presence about her. And just because you're small, it doesn't mean you're not mighty. And just because you might not have the big biker voice does not mean that you don't demand respect through being gracious and kind. And so with that, I am going to thank you so much for being here. I've been excited about having this chat. I don't know a lot about your industry at all. And so it's been actually very educational for me. I'm sure our listeners are going to have a ton of things they wish I would have asked that I don't even know to ask about your industry. Well, I'm here for it. Conversations can continue on LinkedIn. So I'm there able to be found and I'd love to message with you. Got other questions. It was a pleasure. Thank you, Michael. Thank you so much. Take care. That's it for today's episode of the Canary Report. If this conversation helped you reframe how you think about risk and safety, please do me a favor. 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