EP. 241:Jeff Borschowa - Cloning Your Top Clients Creates a Powerful Referral Network

Speaker A: Welcome to Test Optimize Scale. On this podcast we talk about growth marketing strategies with industry leaders, sharing their in depth experiences, insights and recommendations. We stray away from any of the fluff you would hear in a sales pitch, how to video or any outdated content designed only to increase rankings. We set out to provide you with real, actionable marketing data, dismiss any one size fits all misdirection and allow you to stand on the shoulders of some of the best minds in the game as they discuss what they tested, optimized and scaled in their journey. Let's start this show.

Speaker B: Hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Test, Optimize and Scale, joined here by Jeff Borshoa, facilitator, referrer, relationship marketing, business growth expert. I've had the opportunity to speak with Jeff at length on his podcast, the Lighthouse Sessions. Jeff, love the way you think, love the way you approach this concept that feels self explanatory of, hey, you know, build good partnerships, have good communications network with the right people. But I find so many founders, so many CEOs, so many professionals as a whole, don't give it the proper attention, the proper time, the proper systems. So I, I've been m looking forward to the pod here today. Want to thank you for taking the time to join.

Speaker C: Well, Jason, thank you for having me and yes, let's dive in because to me it's the saddest thing when I see somebody say I don't know how to grow my business or I can't get the clients and I ask them, what are your referral systems? And they go, well, I go to networking events, shake a bunch of hands and hope for the best. And I just, I weep for that. I seriously do.

Speaker B: I do as well. They say your network is your net worth. There is no shortage of opportunities to meet new people. Whether it's walking down the street or the hallway of your office or you know, restaurant. Uh, I've had podcast guests come on and tell me, yeah, you know, we'll tell new real estate agents, we'll tell new investment bankers, we'll tell people you, um, know, develop 15 new relationships a day and different programs around it and what comes out the other end. And I like that way of thinking. I know there's more strategic ways to approach it as a whole, but where did it all start for you, Jeff? Want to familiarize the audience a little bit with, with who you are and why you do what you do.

Speaker C: I love it. So there's a few pivot points I won't give you the whole life story. But, um, my entire life, I've been finding people and bringing them together because it just. You know, when I was a kid, it was, hey, you have a. A baseball. You have a bat. Let's go play baseball. Um, I've always connected dots that other people, for some reason, missed. And as a adult working, I started my own professional service firm. And all of the advice I got was really annoying. And let's be blunt, it was a bit garbage because this was early days, and everybody was telling me, you need to be on social media. Um, I think Twitter was the only really active one at the time. This was a while ago, if you can imagine. And it never felt right. All of the advice felt like someone else's secondhand canned advice. And what I realized was I had certain clients that I really loved, and those clients had other trusted advisors that they loved. And the practical in me said, if I love them and they love those people, let's all come together. And so, believe it or not, I ran a small professional service firm. I doubled three consecutive years in a row with zero marketing spend, zero, ad spend, zero. Quite frankly, I didn't have a clue about marketing. I just knew how to build relationships. And what I discovered, a lot of that became who I am today. Because I'm one of those people, I'll do something once by accident and go, huh. Got good results. Let's repeat that. Or, that was terrible results. Let's don't do it. Um, But I kept finding over and over my favorite clients, but brought me my next favorite client. And then when I started looking strategically, it was. I had relationships. And I think this is where most people take it astray, is they go to 100 networking events, and they make no impression on anybody. And they say, networking and referrals don't work. I had three, four referral partners, and collectively, we all grew. Um, my business doubled three times each year it doubled. Um, I think I had the same effect on them. And it was just a small group. Now, come Covid when you know. It was February, March of 2020. Um, people told me, with no uncertainty, that networking was dead. Referrals were dead. Um, I don't know what replaced it, but, um, I refused to believe. And the funny thing was, people said, you can't network on Zoom. You can't do video. It's gotta be in person. If it's not at the golf course, it doesn't count. And I love to be told, you can't. Because my stubborn brain says, let's figure it out. And the Final pivot point was I read, um, years ago, in probably 2013, I read endless Referrals by Bob Berg. And then in 2020, I read the Go Giver by Bob and John David. I was reading the book and I went, oh, my God, that's me. There's like one page. There's one character who's mentioned once in the whole book called the connector. And it gave me vocabulary for my passion. So that's kind of the Cole's notes version

Speaker B: says a lot about how you've seen success. Those referral partners, how do you build that type of relationship? Just starting with, you know, broad type of question. But if someone's tuned in and they're saying, okay, I want three or four relationships like that, I know referral partners have been instrumental to the success of my agency's growth DNA. And we've had over 200 referral partners at this point. Some of them cycle in, some cycle out. Some of them will build our type of, um, uh, team internally over time. And some are transparent about, some aren't. So there's many different shapes and forms of referral partners. But beyond looking at volume, just looking at one and building off your passion there, how are you able to build one referral partnership? Who does it make sense to go after? What does that discussion look like? How do you build this?

Speaker C: Awesome. Well, I will first of all share the best business advice I ever received from one of my mentors. He was very clear and he said, if you wouldn't go to lunch with somebody, why would you do business with them? So my number one thing was it had to be somebody I liked well enough that I could go with to lunch and not talk about work. And so that was actually from the beginning, that was one of my filters. Um, so that's the touchy feely piece that is hard to replicate. But the reality is if you don't like someone, it's really hard to build a mutually beneficial relationship with them. So I always start with the, the trust, and then, you know, know, and like, comes from there. Um, the other thing I look at is somebody relational or transactional, because you will meet great people out there, and I love them, but their entire view of the world is, what do you got for me? And those don't make the best referral partners, because referrals need to be a two way street. Now, the other thing, and this is where I get a little bit weird. And we'll talk more about strategic referrals. Most people, if you look at a professional service firm, you are really good at understanding where your clients go after they've worked with you. So, for example, with DNA marketing, they probably need a business coach or they need a cfo or there's a logical next step in the food chain. And I call that downstream because they flow from you to somewhere else. Now, the problem with that is most businesses, they will come back upstream every now and then, but it's not as direct. So what I do is I look upstream and I look to my clients and I ask myself, what do they do before they come to me? So as an example, I do a lot of referral relationships, and I help people create those referrals. Most of the time, they're coming to me from a failed relationship with a marketing agency. Um, now that, to me is not the ideal scenario. So what I've done is I've identified marketing agencies that have successes and they want to bring me in to give some accelerated results between the, um, you know, the stage of, you know, let's talk about working together, and then we've got to build the assets and wait for things to come. I can look at their client base, I can look at their other referral relationships, and we can bring in some new clients very quickly. Um, I'd rather work with a good marketing agency than try and clean up the pieces after a bad one, if that makes sense.

Speaker B: Absolutely. I hear those stories all the time. Sometimes they are marketing channel marketing area specific. Hey, work with this SEO company, this PR company, Performance Advertising Group promised the world didn't happen. Stop picking up my calls. What do you think about the work? I have to be careful how I look at those notes. Uh, as well too. If it's with a new client, then I'm, uh, able to really assess the analytics, the channels. I always ask what worked, what didn't work, because they'll often want to focus on just what didn't work. Or maybe it's, they worked with a great marketing agency, they're not around anymore. Want to add something to it? Uh, you know what worked? We want to be able to stand on their shoulders, skip different steps here, of course. So I really dive into it the same m way. You're interviewing clients interviewing referral partners while at lunch. What a great concept. By the way, did you have lunch with them and not talk about work? I think just, could you have lunch with them in general? Even if it's a balanced conversation of work and not work? I've had people tell me that here in this digital era, this post 2020 world of, oh, you Know, I don't meet with people or not until we work together for this period of time. And not even towards my invitation. They've told me that when I've invited him to be in like a group lunch scenario. And I think that's just so backwards. I mean, it's maybe old school thinking, but I'd love to, you know, get in a plane and fly out to every new client, spend some real time with them, and really, really build a rapport because you're locking arms and going up to the same goals together. If, uh, you don't have that bond, uh, it's really easy to finger point or think someone's doing something wrong. There's ups and downs in terms of performance. I could say that even across our top campaigns. And you don't want there to be doubt on the other side as much as that individual to understand you as a, uh, as a person. I think you get a lot further that way. And definitely those referral partnerships, I could tell you, some of our best referral partnerships took me years to develop.

Speaker C: Yep.

Speaker B: It was even at times in the first meeting.

Speaker C: I think the problem is everybody wants to rush that. Um, now, I will give you a shortcut if you want, because, um, yes, I learned this a long time ago. And then, I'll be honest, I forgot about it because it was too easy and nobody else was doing it. So I stopped doing it. And then I went, wait a minute. My number one secret is I guarantee you, you've got three, maybe four clients that you absolutely love. Every time they call you, you smile. Those are my people. So one of the things I will do to them for them is I will reach out and say, who are your other trusted advisors? But I also look to them as a strategic partner and say, who else do you know that we need to meet? And that's the beautiful thing. I call that cloning your top clients. Because when a client comes to you, the math is very different. If they come to you from cold traffic versus referrals. So a client that has been referred to you, they stay longer, they spend more money with you, they're more loyal, they appreciate you more, and they believe that the way you grow your business is through referrals. So they're significantly more likely to give you referrals. A client that comes to you through any other method, they expect that you grow by ads or sales or whatever. It's someone else's problem to help you grow. But they also take longer to trust you. They can be more price sensitive. They will Complain more. Um, generally speaking, referral clients, when you get the system in place to get the volume, they are superior to regular clients in every other way. So here's the other deep, deep secret that everybody misses. Um, a lot of people spend a lot of money going to conferences and sponsoring the conferences. And it pains me when I go to a conference and I watch the vendors, the sponsors, sitting there, checking their phones and checking their emails. When I used to go to conferences, I refused to have a booth. I would just walk around, and I'd figure out where the venue was, and I'd figure out where the bathrooms were and where the food was. And if anybody was looking lost, I just walk up to them and say, hey, it looks like you're lost. Can I help you find something? And by the end of the first day, I knew a bunch of people. And as I'm talking to them, I'd take them and say, hey, you got to come and meet this sponsor because you have this problem. And I would walk people from table to table. And, um, I was told it was a colossal waste of time. But one conference, my colleague who worked the booth was really excited because she got five business cards and booked five meetings. Um, I was almost sad, almost embarrassed to hand over my 200 booked meetings and say, um, good job. But I was literally the guy who knew where. You're hungry. I know where to take you. You're lost. I know where to take you. You have to go to the bathroom. Come with me. Um, and by the way, that's why I wear the Hawaiian shirts. It's really easy to get lost at a conference when you're wearing the corporate whatever. All people would have to do is point across the hall and say, go talk to the guy in the Hawaiian shirt. And I was like the event ambassador.

Speaker B: Far more memorable. You also have a personality where people feel comfortable opening up to you. Yeah, you know, I am looking for the bathroom. I am looking for food. I'm trying to find this booth. Uh, tonality, aura. Uh, yeah, you're very easy to speak to. Um, not everyone has that same ability. What are some other questions? What are some other conversation starters? Just playing off that scenario. So beyond are you lost? Were there a few others that worked well for you?

Speaker C: Um, my biggest one has been, um, you know, if you're going at an industry conference, I want to know, did they go to any breakout sessions, which was their favorite? Um, I started a conversation in California once over polenta. You know, the person in front of me was complaining about polenta, and I'm like, what is polenta? And you know, all of a sudden we had this long conversation. Um, I will acknowledge, just for the record, I am a deep, deep introvert. I am happiest at home alone with my books. But when I go to a conference, I play full on.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker C: And for the record, I will go hard for two days at a conference and then I fall in my face and don't talk to me for a month. Like, I'm literally spent. Um, but the key is, and I think a lot of people go to conferences with this guarded, I'm going to call it Stranger danger energy. It's like, you know, people are here to get something from me. Um, I've always approached it. Who can I meet today? Who can I connect with? And it is funny because I'm one of those people. The lost people find me. I don't know what it is. I must be smiling, I must be friendly. But people who are lost will come and say, excuse me, can you help me? So a lot of conversation starters, I don't have to think about it because nine times out of 10 people are asking me, but if I'm really stuck, I'll ask, where are you from? Uh, what brought you to the conference? What are you hoping to get out of it? Um, the key piece. And I can't teach this, but I'm infinitely curious. The thing that makes a good podcaster, part of it is curiosity. Um, if we're not curious, we're going to do solo episodes and we're going to talk into the air. But good podcasters who have guests are deeply curious. Um, I once had an hour long conversation with a custodian about how he got the hotel floor so damn shiny. So that's. I can talk to anyone. But the key is everybody wants someone to be curious about who they are, what they do, what's important to them. If you, you listen to them, they'll tell you what matters to them.

Speaker B: People remember what they say more than what you say as well. So it's a matter of asking the right questions, getting them talking, not looking for it to be transactional relationship building. And, you know, maybe you're able to talk for a while before really stating what you do. And they're more intrigued at that point. They're asking you what you do. Uh, I've found in the early days of my career, ad network, mobile ad network, eventually you've overseeing the sales team, product marketing team. Uh, but there was a day there when I realized, hey, I don't know, some of my clients, I don't know some of the agencies that we work with. I don't know the individuals there firsthand. And I tried to see how long I could go on the calls without, uh, bringing up business. And I found I got a lot further. I also found, hey, if I'm getting a 10% closing rate in business development and one deal really covers everything, um, dad taught me as a kid 20%. And I thought that was wild. I was like, wait a sec. So 8, 8 out of 10 of your calls don't matter. They do. You're building a relationship. Maybe down the line, maybe they get a referral. Uh, but. But I found even if it's one out of ten, I can have fun on all ten of those conversations. I could look to be of value, to be of impact, to be memorable and, yeah, play the part. Love the Hawaiian shirt, love the idea of, hey, this person's going to remember him m to stand out even more. So I've found for me in my personality, if I give different tips and they come back to me and say, I did that and it worked and been mean to talk to you. So, uh, I can put down my business hat, my guard, and just look to connect and I find I get a lot further. Um, I've found, uh, there was a lunch and learn I did. It was actually like a city council thing. City, uh, small business, Santa Monica. It was many years ago, catered in, there's like 40 people. And we didn't get any business. And I didn't think too much of it. Had some fun this first year of the business. And about three months later, uh, I got a referral from a very large group and they continued working with us for well over a year. Uh, um, six figure contract, which for that time in the business, it was very, very welcomed. And when I found out how they learned, uh, about us, it was someone who attended that luncheon, their lawyer, another client of that lawyer. You never know who you're speaking to. I know there's those crazy stories of I was actually speaking to this big CEO or this or that, but who they know and a third degree of that. But if you're putting out your value and your good ideas and having that positive impact, sure may not show up as a contract the next day, but down the line it very much could. We were talking about two different referral partners there. So, um, it sounds like you need to have an understanding of your audience. Different Personas, different profiles. Like you said, hey, I like speaking to people who are working With a good marketing agency, if they've had a bad experience at the marketing agency, that. That works too, but you start finding different groups as a marketing agency, lawyers, accountants, video developers, web developers, consultants, coaches. I could tell you about publishers and all different types of people who send us referrals regularly. You know, how do you get someone to send more referrals? How do you get someone to actually send a, uh, referral? You've identified their good partner. You've built a good relationship. Is there an ask at some point, do you just let it happen organically? Do you get them different content and position them to ask you different things accordingly? What works best?

Speaker C: Um, so basically, I will say yes to all, and then I'll give you an actual answer. Um, so first and foremost, most of the time, organically works best. If you develop the relationship, there will come a time. And, um, I don't know if you've ever seen this, but the reason I do my podcast is I get to meet amazing people. And I have a weird philosophy. When I can, I like to connect each of my guests with at least three people in my network. I haven't done that yet for you, Jason, but I will. Um, but the magic is, um, I read a quote a long time ago, and for years I attributed it to Bob Berg. He since told me, no, it was actually Randy Gage. Um, the quote is, you can't out give the universe, okay? And I have a very literal brain. And I went, watch me. And I'm not crazy. I did it knowing full well I was gonna lose. But my theory was, wouldn't it be fun to play? Anyways, so by showing up and playing full on, I win. Um, so one of my little biases is I believe that most people would like to be entertained and they want to be educated. And if we get education and entertainment, we lead to a transformation. Now, most people think that transformation is we solve the problem. I start with helping somebody understand their problem. So one of the things I like to do with my partners is I will say, what are the myths? What are the mistakes? What are some best practices that help people get ready to succeed in working with you? And so what I will do is I help them. I, uh, create a, A workshop that we do together. And they will present their. I always do three myths, three mistakes, three best practices. Um, and they invite their clients, and I invite my clients. And then the next time around, I'll do a workshop and, you know, we'll talk about three mistakes people make with, with referrals. Um, spoiler I usually do the referral workshop first because it primes the pump for everything that follows. Um, but in this day and age, with webinars and access to things like Riverside, um, we can do this fairly easily. And it then becomes an asset that my referral partners have because I'm helping them be more referable. And selfishly, the harder I try to help somebody become more referable, the more referrals they send me. So not transactional. And that's the key. It's the actual energy of it. If I came to you saying, okay, Jason, um, believe it or not, I was invited to a workshop that was called how to Extract Referrals from Accountants. And I looked at him, I was like, you're serious, aren't you? Um, I said, how do you think accountants feel if they hear that title? Oh, it doesn't matter. They're not in the room. And I'm like, yeah, but the people in the room are going to tell their accountant what they just came from. Um, for me, it's got to be about mutual respect. And by helping my partners grow and by bringing them the right people, um, I can win all the time and I don't have to work that hard.

Speaker B: Mutual respect between partners, yeah, it is

Speaker C: an old fashioned concept. Um, but I'm going to share something that fascinates me. Um, golf was the original networking sport. If you look at whenever. I'm sure the very first golf foursome was about business networking. That's my theory. I don't need to test it. But people think they need the thousands. You're not there networking with everybody on the golf course. You're building a relationship with the, the four people in that foursome. Um, and you then have access to their networks if there's true trust. Now, if you're extractive or if you're not trustworthy, um, you will get exactly zero referrals. So I once worked with a guy who, he had a marketing degree and he had very little respect for accountants. So he actually started an accounting practice where it was actually he was a marketing guy. And he was like, uh, oh, we can hire the cheapest accountants we can find and we'll provide crappy service. Um, he had probably a 50, 60% churn rate every month. And the only thing that kept the lights on was he was really good at getting the next client. The next client. And, um, I looked at him and I said, wouldn't it be better if you mastered the accounting part next so that you wouldn't have the churn? And he's like we don't need that. And so those people don't get referrals ever. And of course they will have myths that, you know, it's hard to find clients, it's hard to get referrals. Um, yeah, if you burn them, just know that if you burn a referral partner, they will remember to the end of their days. So it's got to be mutual respect. And for the record, you might say, you know, this isn't working out, maybe we're going to spend less time together, that's okay. But it's not okay to just, you know, not treat them with respect or to break the relationship. Um, so that's. My approach is I believe, and I'm told over and over, that this is crazy, but I'll take crazy over over the alternative. I truly believe that there is an abundance in this universe and the more I help others, the more the universe brings things to me. I'm not trying to fight over the next lead or the next prospect because a lot of people have that, especially the transactional people. It's very much a scarcity mindset.

Speaker B: And there's a lot behind that scarcity mindset and even how those individuals may manage their business, their accounting. There's so much that can be looked at as a red, at least a yellow flag there. That mutual respect. I like that so much because you used another concept of if you burn that referral partner. As a marketing agency, I have to do a very good job at explaining to referral partners that not every campaign is going to work. I find a lot of those bad experiences with marketing agencies which, you know, it's a, uh, it's a real thing beyond just, you know, stereotype and reputation. There's real stories around that. I think a lot of them are based on poor communication almost always. Yes, yes, you've seen it as well. A lot of it starts in that business development process where groups can over promise and I would rather scare somebody away than over promise them that expectation setting.

Speaker C: Honestly, there's nothing worse than a commission hungry salesperson because they will say and do whatever they need to do to close the deal and then it hands over to operations and good luck. And honestly, a lot of people think, well, you closed the deal, good for you. Um, I turn away more people than I accept because if I can't deliver at my highest level, um, I have a ghostwriting project right now where typically it takes a month or two, this individual wants to speed it up and do it in two weeks. And I'm like Like, we can do it, but I promise you the pace is going to hurt you more than me. And we had to agree that maybe this isn't the time for that book. Um, so when I talk about burning relationships, um, the funny thing, Jason, is if you communicate often and frequently and everybody knows what's going on, tempers don't get to the point where there's a problem. But when you ghost somebody or you don't respond, tempers tend to rise. And that's human nature. Nobody wants to feel like they've been taken advantage of. Um, and really, truly, if I have a good referral partner, I can call them and say, jason, what the heck happened here? Um, I just got a call from Joe and he's not happy. Um, how do we fix this? And that's where the respect comes in. It's not what the hell did you do? It's how do we fix this?

Speaker B: Mhm. They say you don't really know someone until you've overcome an obstacle together. I've heard a word of different ways, been in a conflict together. I have to tell you, friends I haven't had conflicts with, but we've overcome obstacles together. We've had things happen externally, we've had things we had addressed between us. But how people react when there's a real issue at hand, you know, is it protecting their side of the street

Speaker C: and we need to keep this fee,

Speaker B: we need to do this and we need to do that. And we, you know, they've been in trouble since the beginning. We can't put more time in. Or is it, hey, let's do whatever we can to make this work here, that, that shows something. You know, I've spoken about me quite a bit. I've seen other groups out there that refer other marketing agencies and not all of the campaigns work, but they like how they operate, they like how they communicate, they give the campaigns best shot towards, uh, they would probably tell you that matters more than just the end result, which is wild to me because I could tell you a lot of clients grade you by the. The end result. Um, but it is a thousand percent true. I heard about a statement the other day I find kind of interesting. I want to get your thoughts on it. I had a company tell me, um, I think it was on podcast actually, but they said if somebody brings up the concept of a referral fee to me, I don't respond to them. So they have groups reaching out to them. There's no relationship built. And they're thinking, hey, this company is going to Want to work with us and as a referral partner and send us many clients a month because we're offering a percentage of our business as a referral fee and that that statement was a turn off. Could it be that they get a lot of inquiries like that? Could it be it shows the wrong intention? Could be that there's no relationship whatsoever. And why would someone be asking that? You mentioned, you know, speak as if everyone's in the room in the sense that would an accountant want to hear about a workshop on how to build referral partners from accountants? So would the end client want to hear that that's how the relationship was built, was on a referral fee? How do you feel about referral fees and what do you think about that concept of not leading with a referral fee conversation?

Speaker C: So it's funny, but in the true networking space, um, when you get up to the elite referrals, um, it is a hot topic and generally speaking, most avoid referral fees. Now, there are ways to do it and there's things, um, personally I ask myself, would I make this introduction with or without the referral fee? And if the answer is yes, um, I'll make the introduction that I don't care about the referral fee. Um, I do find that it's an unnecessary source of conflict, um, because, and I'm going to blame all the platforms that teach people how to make millions being affiliates, um, it is very transactional and you start putting people in a hopper rather than treating them like human beings. Now, for the record, if you're selling SaaS software for 20 bucks a month, pay a fee, great. But if you're talking like high net worth, um, if you're dealing with big, um, ticket items, high net worth clients, the smell of referral fees is rancid to them and they feel like they're being sold. And so to me that's the key is if I do it, I need to be really transparent up front. You know, I have a couple of projects where I'm doing it on speculation and I'm paid a retainer by the person who is having me do the work for them. If I'm receiving anything over and above that, I make sure both parties know about it before we move forward. Because that's the other thing. When somebody, if you find out up front, you might be okay with it, but if you find out afterwards, it's like, oh, what else is he hiding? Um, but the most elite networkers and connectors I know refuse affiliate fees. I once asked Bob Berg, um, I Said Bob, do you have an affiliate program or do you offer referral fees? One word. No, there's no explanation.

Speaker B: And I went.

Speaker C: But duly noted. I'm going to make a point of that. Um, but, yeah, it's all like. I see it as sort of a business development role. Um, one of the things. And again, this is transactional versus relational. Um, my entire network is a portfolio, and the more I contribute to that portfolio, the more it grows. When I'm saying, well, I will help you, but first you got to pay me, um, it closes doors. So I'm not saying don't do it, but I'm just saying if you do it, know that it has a deep cost.

Speaker B: It's a good way to put it and really enjoy that perspective. I've seen groups use it to, uh, encourage. Groups. Um, I've seen groups very open about, hey, we need this to be built into our business model. This is what we're seeking out as a partner. Uh, I've actually brought that up before of, you know, what if the client heard about this? Is this something that could be transparent? My wife's a lawyer. It's in the actual, um, paperwork. I mean, it shows all the lawyers who are getting a piece of it and their exact percentage. And I think if it's above water, uh, I could tell you there's agencies who get kickbacks from publishers, and that's a problem, in my opinion. It's not anything I would pay attention to for another third party if their rates didn't change. But I know of circumstances where people get charged more because that referral fee needs to be paid. And if that's not transparent, that's hurting everybody. And I am a big fan of networking. I'm a big fan of introductions. I'm a big fan of, hey, this group was of real value to us. They can be very impactful for you work with them, and then that relationship's at stake where that, uh, service provider now needs to deliver, because if not, they're not getting those referrals further. I've even pulled referral partners back into the story. Um, uh, if I was unhappy with the vendor, and then the referral partner is talking to the vendor, and everything suddenly gets done. Done very well. Yeah, you don't want me in that conversation.

Speaker C: M. Yeah, I'm cranky at that point. Um, now, one thing I will say for you, Jason, and again, this is about the people you're doing business with. Uh, one of my favorite things is let's agree. So let's pretend you and I are going to do something together. Um, we agree. We're going to do mutual referrals. And what I like to do is I'll say, let's pick a charity and let's each agree for every. Every deal we close, whatever that number is, the person who closes the deal makes a donation to the charity, and it really tells you who you're doing business with. And again, nothing against transactional people. I just don't have the energy for them because they're always fighting over the last piece of something. And I'm like, but this is abundance. There's nothing to fight over. So I do love. And this is really good for local charities, for example, local businesses. Um, my number one favorite is a chamber of commerce. I believe if you're a local business doing business in a community, you're crazy not to be part of your local chamber. Now, online businesses, that's a bit of a weird thing. But if you're local and you close a deal because somebody you met at a. A chamber event, why wouldn't you make a donation to the chamber to say thank you for putting on that event? And for whatever reason, most people don't think about that. They think, well, the charity's here to serve me. And it's like, well, that attitude is what leaves chambers empty when everybody takes and nobody's giving. So that's one of my weird little things.

Speaker B: I like the recommendation. I'm actually going to use it with one of our referral partners. I like it a lot. Um, want to get into some more recommendations? Uh, what insights would you have for an audience member who wants to build a strong referral program towards their growth? Uh, what should they be testing out? I look at growth as a series of tests. I know you're a big fan of the scientific method as well, too. What should they be doing after watching, after listening to this episode?

Speaker C: So my number one thing is take the time. Get a sheet of paper and write down who your top 10 clients are. Between you and me, Jason, nobody ever does it. They all say, I'll do it sometime. But the key is, if you don't know who you want to duplicate, how are you going to know if you have? So for everybody listening, I would just do something really, really crazy. List out your top 10 favorite clients and schedule a call with them. And just say, hey, I'm just calling to check in and see how you're doing. What's working in your business? What do you wish was working differently? And is there anything else we can support you with those three questions, open doors. Unless you have a transactional, hey, do you want to buy another? I used to have this sales guy, every quarter he called me and go, jeff, I'm below quota. I need to sell 10 more units. Can I sign you up for five? And I'd be like, dude, I don't want five units of anything just because it helps you get your quota. Um, but if you genuinely call and say, what are you doing? How can I help you? Most people will say, that's how you stay top of mind. Um, and by the way, if you've got good clients who pay you a lot of money, you should want to talk to them at least once a month. Just checking in. How are things going? Um, you know, because again, the worst thing you can do is if you think a relationship's good, let it be quiet because you don't know if there's something they're missing or, you know, maybe they have a problem. And by the way, I used to help my clients. I, um, had clients who were, um, in the construction industry. And somebody said, oh, we need our fence repaired. Oh, oh, you need to meet this person. So I'm not just solving business problems. Sometimes I'm solving other problems. But the key is I'm investing in that network and helping it rise. So that would be my first test is, and if 10's too many. Five, five's too many. Call your number one client and just say, I'm calling just to see how you're doing, what's going on in your world. And then listen.

Speaker B: Yeah, listen. Most important part of communication, don't plan out too much what you're going to say other than some questions, what you want to leave the call with, but let the discussion take its own shape. Like you said, not transactional. And I would say 10, because I think it's going to produce some value for you and will be an enjoyable process if they're actually the clients that come to mind that you really like. Here, you could do a call a day over two business weeks. You can do 10 calls in one day. Why not 10? What about optimization? Managing to a point of effectiveness? What if someone's tuned in and saying, you know, I do that. M not really seeing anything come out of it, or, you know, I just called 10. Nothing really came out of it.

Speaker C: Not that they should have that transactional

Speaker B: analysis of this, but how could they improve it? So there is more of a takeaway over time.

Speaker C: Time, the, the reality. So I, I do a simple tick method. I have, um, a Spreadsheet and I, I track. Um, if you're doing it right, you should be getting recommendations, referrals, introductions almost immediately. So if you're not getting results, maybe you need to first of all refocus and say, are these the right 10 clients? Because spoiler alert, if you just had a big fight with somebody and you're calling them saying, hey, um, I'm checking in and I'd like some referrals, the answer is hell no. But if you're genuinely curious about them, and I don't know if you've seen it, but on my podcast, um, for every guest I get, I probably get two or three other new guests because it's referral based. Um, so you should see results almost immediately, but do not expect them immediately. So my advice would be, and this is where consistency comes in. Um, if you're an accountant who speaks to your clients once a year, calling all of your clients once is not going to do anything for you. But saying, hey, would it be okay if I called you next month and checked in? That will get you some momentum because you're making it easy to be remembered and you're also making it easy for them to brag to their friends about how cool they're accountant is because they check in once a month

Speaker B: how cool their accountant is.

Speaker C: You will not hear that ever.

Speaker B: Not something you always hear. Um, but yes, it makes a lot of sense. And it's just through communication and recalling the details. I noticed that about people. I like businesses I like. You were referencing things from our conversation. You can tell they're listening. You could tell there's some level of care about you or at least what you're talking about with them. If they feel like they're just another number. And you're calling 200 people today and it's, hey, wanted to see how you're doing today, Jeff. What's working? What's not working? It's like, okay, I'm busy, please leave me alone. I'll let you know what comes up. Yeah, what about scaling? What about once this is working? How do you do at higher volumes? How have you seen companies you've worked with been a part of scale to much larger level? I mean, the levels that you regrow on your business each year, I feel like you have a good understanding of scale. Many would say it's, it's what we're all playing for. What are, what are the secrets to scaling through this type of approach?

Speaker C: Marketing has a terrible version. I think they call it host parasite. I, I like to Think of it as symbiotic. Um, find. So I say this to all my people. Find the biggest players in your space that your clients trust as an advisor and build relationships with them. And I say this for professional service firms. Instead of you getting better at marketing and sales, build a relationship with somebody who's already good at marketing and sales. So if you partner with people who are growing, you'll all grow as a result of that. That if you're partnering with people who've stagnated, there's no hope in the world unless you've got DNA helping you with your marketing. Um, you're doomed because you're not going to get referrals. So that's my secret, is I look at any market and I ask myself, who are the biggest players and who is the fastest growing? And I attach to them and I find ways to serve them so that the ride is mutually beneficial. And by the way, nobody likes a referral mooch, so don't be the parasite.

Speaker B: Good words, good ways to use it. Jeff. I, uh, speak preach about referral partnerships all the time. I've taken a full page of notes trying to keep up with all the new learnings here myself. If anyone's tuned in and wants to speak with you, wants to learn more in general, get more of your content, where could they go? And any final thoughts you want to leave the audience with here today?

Speaker C: Um, so the easiest place to find me is on LinkedIn. I'll, uh, I'll make sure you have the link to that. My website is pharos business.com. pharos is P H A R O S. Um, I am active daily on LinkedIn. I'm there all the time. Um, if you want to engage with me, that's the best place. Because when I get to know people, I send them introductions and connections all the time. Um, but the parting thought is, whether you believe referrals work or not, you're right. Your brain will find evidence to prove it. I like to believe, um, the late Scott Adams, the week before he died, he released a video saying, I just realized that there's no downside to believing in God. And there's a terrible downside to being wrong and saying, I don't believe in God, so I believe in referrals. There's no downside to believing in them. It, um, it's just more fun that way.

Speaker B: I would find it hard to identify someone who's never worked off a referral, whether they're from, you know, B2C purchases, B2B work I, I think we all believe in referrals. It's just how to use them effectively, how to build those relationships, how to actually get the largest group in the space to be sending people your way. But you make it sound easy. You've shown us different tips, different ideas. I'm going to be at the next conference asking if I could help people. Uh, you've given a lot of inspiration towards standing out Hawaiian shirts, colors. I've heard different approaches towards it. I like it a lot. Nothing, uh, that you could be too wrong about there as it's a good way to put it as well too about, you know, is this something you want to be right or wrong about? Jeff, really enjoyed the discussion. Thanks again. Really appreciate you taking the time to do this. I can tell why your clients, why the groups you work with, why your referees, referrals. Enjoy working with you so much and appreciate you being an open book here on the podcast today.

Speaker C: Well, thanks for having me. I can talk about referrals all day. You just have to give me a mic and stand back. So thank you for indulging this conversation. Jason.

Speaker B: You got it. You got it. Felt like we had to keep it short. Feel like we talked to you all day about this, but I want to thank everybody for tuning in. Jeff, you're awesome. Take Jeff, uh, up on that offer, get in touch with him on LinkedIn, and we'll see everybody next time. Take care.

Speaker A: That wraps up the show. Thank you for engaging with us today. Hope you received strong value from the episode. Please share with your friends, family and associates. We are on all of the major podcast publishing platforms, so we're easy to access and audience growth does get us higher on the charts. We have great guests lined up for you for our next episodes and we'll

Speaker B: talk to you then.

Speaker A: Remember, marketing is not cryptic. If you effectively test, optimize, and scale.