Sound BITES: E51 - Natalia Zacharin | Zacharin Consulting

Derek: Today's episode is brought to you by our company, nanochomp Marketing Strategy and Analytics. We help product and marketing teams solve problems and experience growth using data and approachable AI. Visit nanochomp.com to learn more. Hey everyone. Today on Soundbytes, we have a really great guest, Natalia Zakarin. Natalia is the founder of Zakarin Consulting, a firm helping business owners gain financial clarity and build profitable, resilient companies. With expertise in CFO services, bookkeeping, and financial coaching, she empowers entrepreneurs to scale strategically. And you have a really interesting backstory that's pretty unconventional, conventional, where you've had to adapt, you've had to overcome, and you've had to, um, come over a lot of obstacles along the way that I think a lot of people wouldn't realize, but is a, uh, great part of the story. So, Natalia, thank you for joining us today.

Natalia Zakarin: Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

Derek: So right off the bat, let's talk about the early days. So how did you start? Where did everything come from and what got you down this path?

Natalia Zakarin: So, um, I had an unconventional start. Like you had mentioned. I, um, was not, um, I never thought about starting a business. And um, uh, I was um, in sales before, uh, for a long time. I had a company car, all the things. I then quit my job to be a stay at home mom for six years and during that time period went through a divorce. So when I returned back into the workforce, no one was hiring. It was 2012, I was 42 years old and no, uh, one wanted to hire me. All of my, all of my past, um, uh, relationships, everything had pretty much died. So I started out, um, by, I kept downgrading my expectations. I got first I wanted to get like a full time job and a salary and then I downgraded that. And then so I started looking for waitressing jobs. And I didn't have any experience. No one wanted me. So I finally walked into White House Black Market, the women's clothing store I used to go buy. I used to shop there all the time. And I begged them for a job and they hired me at $7.10 an hour. And so when I got my first paycheck, it was about $240. It was less than my electric bill, so it was pretty brutal. Um, um, but from there I knew that if I got one job, it would stair step to the next. And so from there I got the next job at 12 bucks an hour. And then I landed my job in my first financial role, which was an invoicing clerk for a corporation. Um, and I befriended the CFO there. I was reporting to him. Um, and when the controller left, I walked into his office and said, whatever she was doing, can you just show me what she was doing and I'll help you? And I had no idea what a controller was. Um, I'm like, I'm literally an invoicing clerk. And he said, here's a QuickBooks. Um, just do it. And I'm like, I don't know what that means. And he said, you'll figure it out. So to this day, I'm still not sure if I really did it correctly, but that was my first financial, um, experience. And then I was there for several years. Um, after that, he left, the CFO left. They had a lot of changes in management, and they demoted me, I. I think to try to get me to leave. I was close to 50 years old. I was turning 50 that year. They demoted me, um, back down to a level that was considered poverty for the state of Maryland. Um, uh, I think trying to get me to leave. But I had. And I saw the writing on the wall. I had been looking for work. I was really trying. No one was biting at this point. I'm near 50, single mom, and I, um, was dating a guy at the time who's now my fiance. And he said, why don't you start your own business, um, in bookkeeping? And, um, he had a tax firm, and I thought I could do this on the side. So he sent me, like, this course on starting your own business. I went through this course, and I reached out on LinkedIn to a bunch of people, and someone reached back out, and I closed my first deal, and I had no idea what I was doing. And that's how it started.

Derek: That's. That's wild.

Co-host: There's a lot to unpack there, right?

Derek: Yeah, it's such a wild path. And when, like, we're relating to it, it's crazy, because you had something that was stable, you had a career, you had. Everything was moving in the right direction. You have this family, and then like a domino hits, and a lot of your life starts unpacking all at the same time. And that's super hard for people to overcome, let alone process and keep their family alive.

Natalia Zakarin: Yes, you're absolutely correct. My first thought was, I thought I did everything right. I had a college degree, I got married. Um, uh, I was faithful as a faithful wife, a mom. And I'm like, what happened? What did I do wrong? Because there was, um. It sounds like, it's all okay now, but it was pretty terrible for a long time. And then it would just get better and get terrible again. And meanwhile I'm trying to date and having not good relationships with other men because I'm trying to figure that piece out. My dad was dying of cancer. Cancer. I was in poverty several times. Like, it just was like a never ending story. Had health issues. Like, I was like, can anything else go wrong for years?

Co-host: I feel like, you know, it sounds like you were backed into a corner. You didn't have a choice. You know, you said you had a family, right? So it's like when you don't have an option, it's like you're going to do whatever it takes to get out of that, right? Um, what was, um, I guess like, what was the hardest part of that, right? It's like, because you still had a child, you still had to, like, figure out how to bring in, you know, income for your family. Like, what, what was the hardest part of, of that process? You said you had a lot going on, but like, what. Yeah. What was the most challenging.

Natalia Zakarin: One of the most challenging was the restriction of. I, uh, can't just get any job anywhere because I do have a child at home. Um, I can't afford, um, a lot of aftercare. I want to spend time with her. She was like 8 years old at the time, so still really young. I had no family really in town. Um, and so I couldn't just get a night job making extra cash. So it was like I had my work hours while she went to school. And then she actually did have after after school care and I had to rush to get home. And when she started also having trouble by middle school into high school, when she started having trouble with like getting into groups of kids that were not like the ones that I really wanted her to be friends with, I was like, I need to, I need to figure this out and be home because I was commuting and gone.

Co-host: You know, Derek mentioned, you know, when you first, like when things started to fall apart, it was like a domino effect. But it sounds like when you first got, when you got this job, you got that first job. It's like, okay, someone will actually pay me for something. You had sort of a domino effect in the other direction, right? It was like you got another job and then another job, and then you took, you know, this invoicing clerk position. And then you, uh, you know, asked a cfo, like, what do you think? Like, what about your personality made it so, like, you walked into the CFO's office and said, teach me what this controller was doing when you had never done it before. Like, what, what was that? Yeah, what, what instinct or what personality trait allowed you to do that? Because I think that would scare a lot of people.

Natalia Zakarin: That would scare a lot of people. And it's really interesting that you mentioned that. Um, a few years ago we hired Culture Index. They do personality testing and they have consultants and that's how we do our hiring. Well, when we hired them, I found out I'm a daredevil. It's my personality. And so I'm a very high A type personality. Like I just. And a high social. So I want, I don't want to just win. I want everybody to win around me also. I want to bring everybody with me. Um, so I think that helps, uh, you know, deductive reasoning, um, high, uh, assertive personality. And then my, my data and my detail and like the, the rule following aspect is kind of low also. Probably why I was like, oh, I'll start an accounting firm. I'll figure it out.

Co-host: Yeah, I was just thinking it's like you're a daredevil and you want to write your own rules. Yeah, you started your own business.

Natalia Zakarin: So I think it's the way I'm wired. And um. But I had no idea because I had been crushed by life for so long and my. I think I also allowed. And as we do when we're growing up. And that's why, that's why like, when you get into your 40s and you're figuring things out and then to your 50s, it's so brilliant because when you're younger, everybody else is telling you who you are and, and then you don't realize who you actually are. So when I, when I found out I'm this daredevil, I was like, that's totally not me. Absolutely not. I'm terrified of everything. Not me at all. And everybody around me was like, that's totally you.

Co-host: Interesting that you didn't identify that within yourself.

Natalia Zakarin: Not at all. Until I kind of started thinking back. Um, like at 24, I left. I shipped my car across the country and left without having a job or anything like that. And I just kind of figured it out. Um, at, ah, you know, like in my 20s, I used to travel to all over the world, to Russia by myself to visit friends, you know, So I had always done things, but they were normal. I was never fearful. But, um, but then I felt like life, um, turned on me in a way that I wasn't Expecting. And it took it took over a decade to kind of get back on track. Um, with many times, like you said, I would go up and then down, up and down. I'm like, when is this. When am I going to figure this out?

Derek: That's so hard.

Natalia Zakarin: Yeah.

Derek: When does it ever get better? Right? You keep, like, in. Like you mentioned, you did everything right. You know, you followed the roadmap, you did everything right, and just like, meteor after meteor kept blasting you, it feels like. But it put you on this unexpected path that ended up giving you a better outcome than you could have expected on the safe path that the original life was taking you down.

Natalia Zakarin: That's so true. Um, when I changed my. When I reframed it, and with the help of, like, my fiance at the time, because he's an entrepreneur, um, and even my sister and a bunch of other people, I reframed it as the universe is telling me that the path I'm on is not the right one for me.

Derek: Yeah. And it just took you a couple. A couple nudges before you agreed with that?

Natalia Zakarin: Yes. Yes. I actually, when I knew I was getting demoted and pretty much getting fired, um, my, uh, fiance was, like, celebrating. He's like, yay. That means you're a real entrepreneur. I, um, didn't have that in the background. I would have been. I would have felt crushed. I would have, um. Because I loved my. I love working and I love doing a really good job. So I was really, uh. It was very emotional for me, but this took me out of that and put me into a different path. So I think reframing is such an amazing opportunity to. To change your life.

Co-host: When you first got on, you know, you first got your client, you started this, you know, consulting firm that you had no interest in doing or expectation of doing. Like, what surprised you most about, you know, starting your business or what were you like? What did you not expect about the. About the startup process and client and

Natalia Zakarin: getting clients so much. Um, Sorry, I'm, like. I'm, like, interrupting you so much. M. So first, I had no idea how to price things, like, which is really normal. Um, I. And my first client is still my client.

Co-host: That's amazing.

Natalia Zakarin: And, um, what was really surprising was that, um, I don't think. And I. And this is still very common in the industry. I don't think that bookkeepers are reading the financials to understand, like, it. What. Whatever they do on the side of bookkeeping, how does that impact this financials? So when I looked, um, I was like, this makes no Sense, like his financials. I was, you know, I was learning on YouTube basically how to do it, and I'm like, this makes no sense. So, um, and I guess, like, I'm a little bit. I'm pretty good at numbers apparently. Um, but I, uh, was like, I realized right away that he already had a bookkeeper. He hired me as someone to oversee his bookkeeper, and everything she was doing was wrong. And I actually didn't even really know how to do bookkeeping. Um, so that was really surprising to me. Um, the other thing that was really surprising was, um, not quoting correctly, I did a full cleanup for an entire year, and I didn't charge for it at all. And no idea. Took me like 40 hours and I didn't. That I did not charge for. That's actually. Actually pretty normal. Um, but the most amazing thing is the. I didn't know that this, this is like an entirely different universe that I could start getting clients and change my life one client at a time. Um, to the point where later that year, I quit my job. Not ready to even, uh, I couldn't even pay my mortgage yet. But I. I knew that I couldn't do both at that point. So I quit in August, Uh, the month I turned 50, I think within the same week, actually, that I was turning 50. And, um, by November, I had. I tripled my client base. I had like 11, 12 clients. Still not lighting up the world. But by the following year, literally a year exactly after I started, I was making more money than I ever had. Still not lighting up the world, but making more money than I ever had. And my car died. And I wanted to, uh. I had no car note, so I was really disappointed that my car died. And my fiance said, it's just one client. Just close another client. And so when I started looking at things from that perspective, I have complete control over my destiny now because everything is just one more client.

Derek: That's an interesting shift and, like, there's a few things to unpack there too. It's like, a lot of times we see this too, because we do consulting for marketing and strategy, and we do it very data driven. And if everything is in place, it changes the whole dynamic of the engagement. But it's never, never in place. So you quote it as if, okay, this, this and this are true. And then you'd come in and you start kicking over rocks and you open closet doors and you're like, oh, you know, it's like we might have greatly underestimated what it's going to cost or how many hours it's going to cost. So we ended up shifting a little bit, uh, to what we call a productized service effectively to help change what the monthly expectations are every month. But that's tough. Like you. Same thing for us. Early on it took us hours to make proposals to get like, uh, you know, a 50% close rate. And then once we get that proposal through, you know, we'd still mess up or under bid or, you know, it's tricky to get that right.

Co-host: I was gonna say, I think so early on in the process. You're so grateful to even have a potential client that you want to win them no matter what, even if it means spending a whole year doing something and not charging for it. And then it becomes untenable as you get more and more clients to give away things, to give away things for free. You don't. I think you can like surprise and delight your clients and give them maybe little add ons and stuff to keep them engaged and happy. But like the way in which we were probably doing so much work for very, for no dollars, just because we were grateful and to have the client, we didn't want to lose them. I mean in the first few years that we started, that was commonplace for us.

Natalia Zakarin: That was, that was very commonplace for me as well. Um, what I see also now I'm a CFO for dozens of companies. That is very commonplace for a lot of business owners. And what's very common also is to start deciding you're going to hire because you're busy, not because you can afford it. Uh, and understanding the numbers. So in 2020, at the end of 2020, I was like, I need to hire someone. I can't, I can't handle all this client, these clients anymore. And I realized I don't, I won't be able to afford it to start hiring. So I wasn't charging appropriately. Uh, and I had to double my pricing basically. And um, it was very painful to do that because I would get on a sales call. So I'm like terrified to begin with. I'm still trying to close the deal and not feeling 100% confident yet. Um, so I'm getting on a sales call knowing that I have to increase my pricing to a certain level so that I can hire someone. Um, and um, and I would, I would psych, um, myself out and, and lower the cost on the call. They wouldn't even ask. Like it was normal to them. If I had just acted like this was the normal price, it would have been normal to them also. And so, um, every time I would close someone still not at the price I wanted to, um, my fiance would tell me, well, I guess it wasn't painful enough for you yet. And that's true.

Derek: Yeah, good advice. Cause like you're either going to experience the pain there or in the engagement when you've under underbid it.

Natalia Zakarin: Um, yes.

Derek: Related to this, one of the things that Lauren had mentioned is, you know, we were doing a lot of things for free because we were so grateful. Like, oh, we just gotta, well, let's do this. Well, let's get this thing done for the client. But the painful part for us, what we learned. There was a guy that we know and he had used the phrase winking in the dark. And that sticks with me a lot. He's like, you're doing all these favors for people, you're doing all these nice things for people, but they don't even know you're doing it. Like you're m literally like giving them a wink, wink, wink, but you're doing it in the dark. They don't even realize that it's happening. So they're not even attributing all that work you're doing to you. And I was like, I never even looked at it that way. He's like, yeah, so it's okay to do that and help somebody, but you got to let them know when you're doing somebody a solid. You got to let them know if you're going to cut somebody a deal, you got to let them know. And then to your point there, one of the things that same person talked to me about was negotiating on scope and not price.

Natalia Zakarin: Mhm.

Derek: Is like when people push back on you on scope pricing, you can either accept it or decline it, but don't do the same work for less price. Just shift the scope to match their pricing.

Natalia Zakarin: And I'm like, yes, huh, huh.

Derek: Interesting. And that sounds like what the lesson that you had to learn as well.

Natalia Zakarin: Yes, yes. And a lot of times when I'm talking to clients, I tell them that also. Well then give them tiers. Like, okay, well you don't want to pay this tier of service. So we have this other level as well. Um, and I think that's very helpful for us. We, what I do now as well, because I agree with you, if you, if you do something for free and someone doesn't know that it's free, they actually don't even appreciate it as much. They just think that it's just normal. Um, um, I do tell people, and I love doing I love giving like free advice. I have clients that are not our CFO level clients, um, that'll jump on and be like, hey, let me help you out. Um, I, um, can just, you know, for an hour I'm going to read you your financials and give you. And we'll talk and we'll give you like step by step of what you need to do next without signing up for our other level. I can do that now because my pricing is right. Um, but I don't do it for free. I let them know that I'm doing it for free. It's something that does cost them, but in exchange, can they write me a review? M. And so that way there is still an exchange of something because I want to get reviews. And we're actually new on Google. We just got a website last year. So uh, you know, you don't have to have a logo or website to build a multimillion dollar business.

Co-host: I was going to say that is interesting. So did you get most of clients through referrals or outreach? You said you were met. M. You were messaging a lot of

Natalia Zakarin: folks on LinkedIn, everything. I called it the leave no stone unturned. Uh, literally like um, in line at ah, the grocery store. I'd start chatting with someone and tell them I'm an accountant, a bookkeeper, anyone that came to my house for any kind of work, like a plumber, um, the guy who would take um, uh, the junk out, the junk hauler, everybody. I'd say, hey, do you need a bookkeeper? Need an accountant? Um, my friends and family started making fun of me because all that would come out of my mouth every time we go. So there was outreach, outreach on LinkedIn. Um, I joined a lot of other, um, um, business groups. Um, I joined a women networking group which was really helpful because women like to buy from women also. Um, and then I started finding referral partners as well. And my fiance, he was my boyfriend at the time, he actually did not send me any referrals. He had his own bookkeeper for the first three years. And I probably because I don't know if he trusted that I knew what I was doing yet. And I don't blame him.

Co-host: You're like, I'm still figuring it out myself.

Natalia Zakarin: Um, so he now sends me referrals also. So I have several referral partners, um, at this point. So it's building on all, uh, it's really firing on all cylinders. And I've done it piecemeal over time, like the free stuff first. But um, referrals you can't really build a predictable revenue or predictable model on referrals only. And they can dry up and they have. So at this point where we have ads and social media and like I said, I now have a website and, um, we have everything firing on all cylinders at this point.

Co-host: How has that shift been from. I know you have the sales background from before you got married, so it sounds like you've been utilizing that to get new clients. But, like, how is this shift to really doing proactive outreach and marketing and having more of a digital footprint? What has that been like for you guys?

Natalia Zakarin: It's, um, it is painful to set up and to watch your money go out the door while it's getting figured out. But that's why it's so important for every business to price appropriately, understand their financials, and have, uh, cash in the bank, uh, a couple months worth of expenses in the bank because you can't stop taking risks and you have to take those risks to get to the next level. Um, so for me it was probably, um, like figuring out who to hire, uh, and who is going to do a good job. Um, so I went through two marketing agencies, um, spent about quarter of a million dollars, um, with nothing really to show for it, um, and hired a salesperson. Also couldn't tell if the salesperson was good at closing because I didn't have good leads coming in. Um, so, um, and I had assumed that the leads would come in because two years ago I'd actually started ads and I was getting so overwhelmed I shut them down. So, same company, same ads. But everything had changed with Meta. Um, right. So, um, I went through two companies. The third person that I'm using now figured it out. Like, he turned it on on Sunday. And by Tuesday we had booked, um, booked leads, um, on our calendar. Um, and now I have three salespeople and that running. Um, so I kind of wait till I figure a piece out. And I probably should have left the other company sooner than I had. Like, if it's. If marketing's not working or you're, um, are actually ads. If ads are not working and you're not getting booked calls, then you need to keep holding them accountable. Like, that's not okay. And I know I was getting like, really busy and I was kind of like hoping it would just work. But I ran, but I spent a ton of money that I didn't have to. Um, so. And you guys, that's like, I think your realm. So you probably know that even better.

Derek: Well, you and I kind of talked about this high level because there's an intersection here. We talked about this during our discovery call was um, we've seen it where people will misdefine what a conversion is. So like there's different expectations of what conversion means. Does that mean someone going to your webpage, filling out a form, booking something, buying something, like very different things. And then the example that you and I were talking about, Lauren and I were on a call with the company and I'll yada yada over it as much as I can. But what came down to it is their lifetime value of the customer um, was less than their acquisition cost. But they didn't realize it because they kept getting so much just raw growth month over month that they would put ads out, get new clients, use that money to put ads out to get new clients and you know, so they're going up into the right. But Lauren and I kicked over Iraq and we're like nobody buys twice. Mhm. And so like their conversion rate looked good and they were high fiving themselves and it looked profitable but really they were losing significant money every month because nobody the acquisition cost exceeded the single purchase price. And I think that's probably something that in your world you end up seeing a lot as people are trying to grow and scale and build. They wash over little mistakes like that. Not even a little mistake but like they don't see some of the mistakes in the forest.

Natalia Zakarin: Yes. Some of the things that are really important I think we talked about was client acquisition cost or customer acquisition cost or cac, um cpl, which is cost per lead, um, lifetime value, the ltv, um like ratios of those things, um, uh those are really important to see. Also if you have a sales team like what percentage actually shows, you know what percentage shows up for the sales call and then what percentage is actually closed. So like there's so many different pieces of it and for me I can, it's like a straight line, um, like it's basically, basically from the top line down right. Of um, having some kind of lead generation that works, then having them um, become prospects, then having them become clients, then um, having them stay. And so all of that goes down like the P and L. And it's really interesting because if you have a lead generation problem first then you're going to have probably a cash and profit problem. Then if um, if you fix the lead generation problem and you have a sales closing problem that's like the next one down the line and then once you fix that issue now you're going to have an onboarding problem or a delivery problem. So like it's. But you just need to, that's what business is. It's just constantly trying to foresee those issues and fixing them as they're coming.

Co-host: How has your offer changed since you first started your business? Have you evolved that at all? I'm sure you have, but yeah.

Natalia Zakarin: In what ways has it changed dramatically? And I'll say that I, um, really love looking at what my competitors are doing on Facebook groups and LinkedIn and reading about what they do and, and reading what they complain about. Um, and then um, and also because I'm, I'm still actually in sales. I have three salespeople but I still do some of the sales because it really helps me to see what's going on in my industry. Um, so listen, everybody should listen to what their prospect is telling them because they're telling them exactly why they're looking for someone new. And that way you can take that information and make those changes. So some of the things that I heard over and over again is um, I don't have good numbers. Um, they're not accurate or they're not up to date. So that's really important for us. Um, and we've made changes and I'll explain that in a second. And then the other thing they kept telling us is okay, so now I have my numbers, I have no idea what to do now to make changes in my business to improve my situation. And so that was a recurring um, concern on all these sales calls or talking to clients. So we started um, um, the CFO services in January 2021, just two years in. Again, kind of like I'm learning at the, at the same time as providing services which is um, it, that's a dangerous thing to do. But it's also I um, still know more than the client because I'm really focusing on that learning and they don't have that time. And um, I'm running my own business too. So everything that I'm learning and fixing and doing is not just theory, it's actually happening. That's why it's really important for me for us to also have a very um, big scaling uh, business because then we know what we're talking about. The um, the accuracy and making sure that everything is, is on time. I have managers in place so I have an in house controller. Uh, every single financial before it goes out to a client, every single month gets reviewed. So we take that extra step and that extra cost to do that because it's so important to Me because that's not what the industry is doing. Um, and so by the time we get someone, they, they're disappointed, they have someone ghosted them, they haven't heard from them, something doesn't look right. Um, ah, so we're looking at all of those issues and we're making changes constantly. And so every time someone comes to me and says there's a problem, I had, I had a client, um, about six months ago message me and says I haven't received anything for three months. And I was like, what, what happened? And instead of getting angry it was well this is an issue that we need to fix so it never happens again. So what fell through that we didn't notice as managers that something didn't happen for three months and then what happened with the other, with the staff accountant that it didn't happen. So like we made changes. We're constantly revising, reviewing, iterating.

Derek: Uh, I think that's something that we've been getting good at too, is refining our internal workflows across feel like in the early days of anything you're yet up reactionary, like things happen and you just come scramble. We're good solution, um, creators. We'll figure out how to do that. And then after you, you know, when, when Lauren and I would scramble the jets to solve the same problem twice, it's like, okay, this needs to be a workflow or a robot needs to do it now. And so we would find out how to define something as the most clean workflow we could. And then once you have really clean workflows, well you can either have easy time onboarding somebody to do that because it's documented or you can have a computer, a robot go through and execute that workflow. So everywhere we moved in our world went from scramble to workflow and then determining what needs a good workflow versus what just needs, um, a little tweak to what's already existing. And then there's that. Also that balance of like too much process can suffocate something too. So finding where that fine line is is important. Um, and it sounds like you all have to work with that with a lot of different industries and different businesses. What industries do you work with a lot? And which ones are the most effective? Uh, and which ones are the potential problem child industries that you see.

Natalia Zakarin: Sure. Um, we actually don't have a niche and as ah, a true CFO service, if you're really a cfo, you don't need a niche. You can figure out the numbers and have a conversation and really understand what needs to be where. And that's one of the things that I've actually really learned. Um, so sure. Is it easier to niche down? It is, but it's more of an assembly line. Um, and you can create an assembly line and you can almost train anybody into it. Um, I want us to be better than that. Um, so we work with a lot of different industries and some of them are very, very different. A lot of service based industries, those are the easiest. Um, we um, have some marketing companies that we work with. We have some um, um, IT services. We do uh, a lot with managed service providers. Um, we uh, work a lot with architects and engineers. Um, we also work with real estate which is. Real estate is very complicated. So anybody in the real estate. And there's so many complications and differences between. Is it, is it long term rentals, is it short term rentals? Are you flipping, are you um, selling, um, the mortgages? Uh, like what are you doing? Uh, we have one that does all of it which makes it so. And they're all separate LLC because it makes it very complicated. Um, and um, that's like a cash flow crunch all the time. In the real estate industry, um, we have real estate agents. Um, they tend to be less organized because they're just going, going, going, going, going. So having the organization is really, really important for them. Um, we have several pharmacies that is a super interesting business. Um, several pharmacists, uh, independent pharmacies. Very, very interesting business where because of all of the changes in all of the laws and the procedures, their um, their revenue keeps going up. Their cost of goods sold, the cost of the drugs also goes up just as fast as their revenue is. So to make the same amount of profit they have to, they have to bring in a lot more business. So we can actually see in a graph their revenue and their cost of goods sold is going up this way and their profit is staying like just the same. So the gap between profit and gross profit is bigger and bigger and bigger. So for them to stay in business they have to keep selling more and keep selling more. Um, very interesting business model. Restaurants um, are really um, very similar too because they have a very high cost of goods sold. So they're very similar in that regard. Um, we haven't really worked a lot with manufacturing. We work with a lot with people that have inventory, but not with manufacturing. Um, the business model that's the most difficult I think is anything that requires a business to take a lot of loans in the, in the beginning. So the more money you spend to start the business, the harder it is to get to that break even point. And not everybody does. And so that's, that's the hardest piece.

Co-host: Is there like a certain company size that you seem to like, niche well within uh, a lot of different industry. But I'm just curious if like someone who needs your services, it's like X million dollars in revenue or like 50 under 50 employees or 100 employees or something like that, if you've noticed a trend there.

Natalia Zakarin: I have. You know what I have noticed? Um, so it doesn't make sense really to hire CFO unless you're planning on scaling. Um, so if you're at ah, like half a million dollars in gross revenue and you're scaling, it probably starts to make sense. It's never too soon really if you're really growing because the more in, the faster you scale, the more you start spending, um, and your expenses start to increase erratically or increase on par with your revenue. And that's not what you want to happen. Um, so in order uh, to uh, to prevent that, it's, it's better to start with someone sooner. Um, the sweet spot is probably close to a million in revenue is when they start with us. Many times people come to us because they're responding to our ads. They're already in trouble, they can't make payroll, they're already out of cash. So it's better to start sooner than later because everything is fixable. But it's more painful um, when you have to fix it. Um, what I'm seeing more and more is this really interesting trend that companies that are over 20 million in gross sales, they should be hiring full time people in house and they're not. And I think the reason why they're not is because they haven't perfected figuring out who that hire is. And those hires are really expensive. So for instance, to get like a really good bookkeeper, we're talking about an average of 60 to 75,000 in salary. Um, to get a controller we're talking now about 85,000 and up. Um, and then for a CFO, that's like a 200,000 and uh, up salary. So, so if you're getting all three and once you're at 20 million and more, you should really start considering getting um, like a suite of um, financial people. Um, it gets, that becomes an expensive mistake if you don't know what you're looking for and if you don't know how to transition people out or if they should be transitioned out because a Lot of business owners don't even know how to read their financials, uh, or they don't even know if they're wrong. Um, so I think they've gotten, um, they've gotten um, interested in fractional services because we've perfected hiring those people and we take the brunt of the wrong hire.

Derek: Yeah. So, yeah, it de. Risks them making a significantly expensive wrong decision at a really critical juncture in their business growth.

Natalia Zakarin: Yes. And so they're going to like. So our clients, we have Several now over 10 million and up to 35 million, which is, I think, crazy. Uh, and they're still using us for bookkeeping, A.P. ah, and controller, uh, services and sometimes CFO services. And that makes it easy also for them if they do decide to transition to someone else. They already know what it looks like because they're working with someone.

Derek: No, that makes, that makes a lot of sense. And when you're um, up so you have kind of a sweet spot in company size and life cycle, not necessarily industry, and you can pick up the nuances of the industry as needed as you guys are in an engagement. Um, and we talked about lead generation, we talked about the business growth. When you are working with these customers, are a lot of them. What percentage would you say are looking for an exit versus looking to build a sustainable lifestyle brand that can continue to provide for them and their families?

Natalia Zakarin: So that's a really interesting question. Um, our goal is always to create a business that's sellable even if it's not going to be sold, because that creates a much healthier business model and, and much more profitable. Um, so the question always is most people want to sell in like five to 10 years or wherever they are at. And a lot of that has to do with their age more than anything else, to be honest. So, um, they do want to sell. But if their business, if they find after working on their business to get it to a point where it become more valuable to sell, they're actually doing less and less and less. Because a business is not sellable if the owner is doing everything. So if you're doing less and less and less as the owner and you're really only managing the business, making sure everybody else is doing their job and you're overseeing the culture. You're the visionary, you're the innovator, and you're doing all the things that you were really supposed to be doing. Some people then decide, I don't actually want to sell this because it's a cash cow at this point point. Um, the problem with selling your business is, um, if you don't get a good deal, you, um, could be stuck working for them for five years and now someone else is managing you. That is tricky for some people. Um, you also have a finite amount of money that comes in for the sale. Um, and so that is a scary thing that maybe you get 5 or $10 million or even more, but that's it. That's a finite amount. Now you have to figure out how to live off of that. So that's why a lot of people start, um, a secondary business or they start something else again. Um, but if you can have something that is just running pretty much on its own and you're checking in and it's just giving you several million a year, why not stay forever, um, until you really don't want to work until your 70s. So we're seeing lots of different scenarios and I think it really has to do with if the person is in pain where they're working a tremendous amount, they want to get out sooner. And if they can figure out how to put everybody into position where it's not as painful and they're not working a million hours, you know, like, and just like, ah, and having all of this stress, then they want to, they want to get out. I mean, they want to stay in. They want to stay in.

Co-host: You mentioned, um, you said that folks who are finding you now are probably already in trouble. And I can imagine that those conversations can be pretty intense. Right? Like, I'm sure there's some fear there, there's some, some big emotions there. So I'm wondering how you navigate that because I can imagine that can be kind of challenging.

Natalia Zakarin: That's actually part of our training. Um, it's the difference between a stressed out entrepreneur. So entrepreneurs are very, a type assertive. They uh, want to get things done. Money and taxes are triggering. They could get annoyed or they could, they could sound, um, aggressive or rude. And so it's the difference between understanding are they just having a tough time or is that their personality? Maybe we don't want to work with them. Um, and so there's been a few where, um, they've been overly rude and yell at us on a regular basis. That doesn't make sense for them to do so. And they're not treating us well. They don't have respect for us. They go, we don't work with anybody that we don't want to work with. Um, that's kind of rare. It's only happened a couple of times, but it has happened um, the CFO services are always a combination of strategy, ah, data and, um, mindset psychology and therapy. I've had people cry. I've had people get really upset. I've had people feel like they're backed into a corner.

Derek: Um.

Natalia Zakarin: Um, I've gotten on calls at. At 11pm on a Friday. Uh, I've been in triage after surgery and gotten on a call with a client.

Co-host: No,

Natalia Zakarin: I'm like, well, I might as well take this call. I'm just sitting here doing nothing. You know, I mean, like, I am obviously very dedicated and passionate. Um, if I can do it, I'll do it. Um, I don't expect my team to necessarily do that, but I have. My team is so aligned with. We just want to help. I've had my, um, other cfo. He's a CPA and our cfo, and he manages some of the team. He'll take calls while he's on vacation. I'm like, please don't go. Relax. No, there's no reason not to. Um, so, um. Um, sometimes it's just like, literally jumping on. And I had a client call me and say that she's getting sued because she, um, defaulted on rent, uh, a few years ago. And now it's come to surface and she was really worried. And I'm not, uh, a legal advisor. Like, there's not really much I can actually help her with except that I can hold her hand and say, you're going to be okay no matter what happens, we're going to work through it. If you want me to be in touch with you and your lawyer, like, if you want me involved or one of our CFOs, um, that's totally fine. So sometimes it's just letting them know that someone is there, support, um, to help them. Yeah, to feel supported.

Co-host: Gosh, M. I feel like your life is so different now. You have a large team. You have a business worth two and a half million dollars. Like, what's next? Or what? What's exciting to you about the future?

Natalia Zakarin: The hiring. So, uh, we have our 18th person starting next week. Um, where our goal is to hit 4 million this year. Um, that puts us like, we're kind of in mid market. It's really interesting because accounting firms are either a million and less and there's tons and tons and tons of them, or they're like, really, really big ones at like 100 million and there's not a lot in between. Um, so, um, I'm excited about, keep growing and really reinventing the CFO role of Helping people, um, and hiring. Um, we opened up an office, which I, um, can't wait to actually want to get some local people because we're 100 remote. Um, I want us to be more hybrid, uh, to have a local office. I have an office right on the water in Canton, Baltimore. It's a beautiful view. So I'm excited to, uh, grow, um, a local presence. Um, I don't know. It's just. It's fun. It's there. There are the days, just like any entrepreneur, where I stay up at night. I'm, like, worried about things. I'm worried I'm going to lose clients. I'm worried I'm, um, overspending. Um, I'm worried that, like, my, uh, my guesses, uh, and my, uh, I'm going to just guess wrong. And I did. Last year, I was planning for a really big year, and the first eight months fell flat, and so I was sweating bullets. Um, but because I know my numbers and I know my cash, I still knew I had, you know, I could ride it out. Um, so I still have those days where I just want to stop, uh, and go garden and watch the birds and play. I have chickens. Play with my chickens. But, uh, it's, um. Yeah, I'm just excited. Ah, if we can get to, like, my number keeps shifting. So I was like, at first, oh, I just want to get to quarter million. Then I was like, I want to get to a million, then I want to get to 2 million. I think my number. My number last year was like, I think I can get to 10 million, and I think my number now is closer to 40 million. I don't know.

Co-host: Amazing.

Derek: Yeah, we're excited for you. We're excited to see where it goes and how it gets there, and we'll definitely talk more about data after the call. But all of that, we covered a lot of ground today. And I think, you know, I warned you, gave you a heads up on this one. If you can give advice to yourself at 18, 25 or, geez, at this point, maybe it's 40. Like, you know, if you can just sit down and have dinner with that version of you, what does that conversation look like? What advice do you give that person in that moment?

Natalia Zakarin: It. I think I would definitely say, first of all, the. The thoughts that you had about yourself that don't let someone else make you feel differently about yourself. So keep moving forward without fear and without reservation. Um, and. And I think the biggest thing is, no matter what happens in life, if you keep moving forward and stepping Forward, you'll. You'll take, you know, one step forward, two steps back, but you'll keep moving forward eventually. Just don't ever give up. Don't stop. Um, because things do happen if you. If you just keep going. Um, I think it's Alex Harmozi or someone that says that if you just keep doing something an inordinate amount of times, you will eventually become successful. And I think that's true.

Derek: Yeah, that's. I think that's, um, pretty accurate. Like, we will call that batting practice. Right. The. The more times you swing the bat, the better you're going to get. And the. You can't get better at hitting a ball by reading about it. Like, you actually. At some point, you actually have to just do it, and you have to be okay being bad at it, and you have to just go through those processes. There'll be ups and downs along the way, but I think that's good advice. And, yeah, it's. It's interesting because I think I told you that we haven't really had somebody give the same answer to that question twice, and we're still there. I don't think anyone's really. We have some common themes, but, like, never gotten the same answer twice.

Natalia Zakarin: Yeah.

Co-host: I'm curious. What. If you have any time, Because I know you're running a huge business, but, um, what books are you reading? What podcasts are you listening to? What's in your playlist?

Natalia Zakarin: Yes. Oh, so many. Um, I'm reading, uh, actually a book from, uh. I was a guest on a podcast. Uh, it was, um, a book from Rick McPartland. I forgot the name. I think it's called Revenue. This Sales, uh, Revenue or something like that. So I'm reading that book. I'm reading two books. I went to go see Larry Linney, um, and I'm reading two books, make the Noise Go Away and Leading Performance Because It Can't Be Managed. They're small, so I like small.

Co-host: Yeah.

Natalia Zakarin: Um, I'm reading a whole bunch on Audible, like, every time I jump in the car. Strong Ground by Brene Brown was something I just recently was reading. Um, the Founder's Mentality. Hyper Sales Growth. Predictable Revenue. That's a really good one. Um, I just. I, um, feel like I read a lot of financial books and financial metrics so that we can keep getting better and better. Um, I believe that part of success is learning, and you will not be successful if you don't keep learning. Um, I listen to a lot of podcasts. I love, um, the Diary CEO and Modern wisdom and like, all the, the normal ones that everybody listens to. And I love being in entrepreneur groups. I want to be in the room where people are normalizing big failures and big successes. And, um, I, I don't want to be the biggest, um, business in the room. I want to be one of the smaller ones so I can get. Keep growing, learn. Yes.

Co-host: Yeah.

Derek: Related to that point. You know, one of the things that, like, has shifted as I've gotten older is like, I always. And we talk with our clients about this too, especially new managers. It's like, I've always wanted to be the person that had the, the answer. Like, even if I didn't have it initially, I'd be like, googling it on my phone so I could be the person with the answer and seen as the person with the answer. And like, ah, as I progress and like, basically off the comment you just made, you end up getting to a spot where having the right answer matters significantly less than being able to ask with the right question and, like, understand and how to break things down. Art and. But yeah, what you just mentioned triggered that thought in my head. It's like, as you get older and as you, you learn a little bit more, the thing that you think is important is actually not so much. Right. And it's, uh, it's interesting how that happens. Well, I think that's a great list. And you mentioned modern wisdom. This is completely unrelated to anything else we've talked about, but he's been going through some health issues. Right. Like, every now and again, I spot in like, it's like mold or like a fungal thing that he thinks what's happening there? Do you know?

Natalia Zakarin: I actually, I don't know. I, um, do have my own health issues. I have an autoimmune. And because I'm older, it was not something that a lot of people knew about or talked about. Um, so I was diagnosed in my 20s, over 30 years ago, and I'm only really feeling now that I'm getting the care, um, that I, that I needed. And part of that is that part of working so hard and making some money, because I came from poverty several times in my adulthood. Um, and one of the first things that goes when you're in poverty is you do not have time for your health. Zero.

Derek: Yeah.

Natalia Zakarin: You don't take care of yourself. You're just going, going, going. Um, you know, if the dog gets sick and has to go to the vet and it's $500 that took me six months to pay off, it was really Painful. Um, I didn't get a mammogram. I didn't go to the doctor. Um, uh, it was just uh, it was pretty awful. So one of the benefits I think now is that I can actually take care of myself and my family for our health and um, and I uh, and work out and go to the gym and do all the things that are really important. So that's a non negotiable is to take care of myself.

Derek: Yeah, I think people take that for granted that like when you have, when you have a family to feed or you have rent to pay, like going to the doctor for that issue, it's going to fall, that's going to wait. Yeah, yeah. It just doesn't feel like an emergency now and you know.

Natalia Zakarin: Yeah.

Derek: Seeing a lot more people realize in the media like in the media you see it now like um, with the guy from Dawson's Creek passing so young. And then. Yeah. James Vanderbeek and then um, Eric, Eric Dane again, also pretty young. It's like we take for granted a lot of things. We always think there's tomorrow and um, we got to take some of that stuff more seriously when we have opportunities to. Um. So Natalia, where can we find you? So we'll link your webpage, we'll link your um, LinkedIn. Is there anywhere else you want us to post links to?

Natalia Zakarin: Yes, absolutely. We have a page specific to your audience. It's going to be under Zachary consulting.com bites b I t E S for sound bites. Um, there they'll find a couple of free giveaways. Um, one is seven ways to find money in your business. Now another one is the ultimate checklist for financial success. Um, if you are interested in chatting with us, we have a calendar link there as well. But you don't have to book with us. You can just grab the freebies. Um, and um, we do have actually, um, just check out the website because we have several other resources there that are free. A lot of blogs, um, and a lot of other things as well.

Co-host: Thank you so much. That's amazing. Thanks for doing that for our audience. Really appreciate it.

Natalia Zakarin: I hope they take advantage of it. They're actually really great downloads.

Derek: Thank you so much. We really appreciate it. Natalia, it was great chatting with you, great learning about you, hearing about your uh, story, how you built up to your business and we're really excited to see where things go from here. So thanks so much for joining.

Natalia Zakarin: Thank you so much for having me. It was a lot of fun. Bye.