Sound BITES: E49 - CJ Casselli | Truss Vet

Speaker A: Today's episode is brought to you by our company, nanochomp Marketing Strategy and Analytics. We help product and marketing teams solve problems and experience growth using data and approachable AI. Visit nanochomp.com to learn more.

Speaker B: Hey everyone. On today's episode of Sound bites, we have C.J. casselli, the co founder and CEO of Trust Vet, where he's reimagining the animal hospital experience and bridging the gap in care between general practice and and emergency hospitals by pioneering a whole new category, Veterinary Urgent Care. C.J. has a history of entrepreneurship in the healthcare space and has an MBA from Duke right in our backyard. Cj, welcome to the pod.

Speaker C: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Speaker B: We're excited to have you. Um, so to kick things off, really how we like to start these is, you know, you tell us where you got started on this path of veterinary urgent care entrepreneurship and all that good stuff.

Speaker C: Yeah. So I grew up in Florida and all of my different family members ran different companies, mostly small to medium sized businesses that they had started. Accounting firms, advertising agency, My dad actually started a church. So just a mix of things that they had started. And I was always drawn to that idea and originally worked in one of those businesses out in Arizona and then went to business school as you mentioned. Post business school I didn't have a great idea. And so I uncovered this idea of looking for companies to acquire basically from someone who might be retiring. And so I formed a group of CEOs and entrepreneurs and we went out looking for businesses to find so that I could basically take over from someone who was retiring. And Covid hit right after we launched that. So it was kind of a crazy time. We ended up shutting that down. But during that journey I discovered this idea, uh, and I actually met my now co founder, Dr. Brad Waffa, who's a veterinarian. And we kind of coalesced around this idea of creating, um, a totally innovative and new veterinary model. Um, one that cared for clients and teams in different ways, but specifically offered urgent care, which was a new and emerging concept in vet care, which we can talk more about. But um, our concept is similar to human urgent care. There needs to be something between a primary care physician and a 24, 7 ER. Most of us don't like rushing to the ER when we have a problem. And so, uh, a good first step is urgent care and there wasn't that in the veterinary industry. And so we decided, hey, I think we could really build something here.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's a, that's an awesome foundation. And it's interesting you mentioned, uh, that search fund concept. We had someone on here who was forming a search fund called Osprey who did something very similar. Right. It was, it's great. You look at, you look at people building all these businesses and they're right about the place where they're either going to pass them on to family or, you know, just, just ready to pass on a really well built business. And it's perfect for entrepreneurs with a business MBA background to step in and take it to that next level. And it's interesting you went down that path and then along that you kicked over some stones. You're like, actually this is an opportunity that really has a gap in the market and you jumped on it.

Speaker C: Yeah. One of the, one of my big takeaways from that, you meet with tons of businesses, you look at tons of industries. And one of my big takeaways was, um, you really want to be in a great industry. There's, you know, one of the things you can't change is kind of the water you're swimming and you know, the industry that you're playing in. And there were some really talented and smart people who were just in really tough industries and so they had a really hard time building great businesses. And so the other piece is you want to be an industry that you enjoy and like and enjoy the people you know, and you're passionate about the service. So if you happen to find a great industry that you're also passionate about, it's a great combo. And, and the veterinary industry is a great one. The pet industry is booming, as you all know. Uh, it's a big category that many people can relate to. It's fun to have a business that people can relate to. So, uh, it was, it was interesting to take away all of those lessons and kind of observations. But being in a great industry, uh, is just a real benefit. Everyone wants the wind at their back in some way. And so if you're in a space that tends to be growing, it's quite helpful.

Speaker B: I'm curious, I want to talk more about the industry, but something that you said interested me, um, that you come from a family of entrepreneurs, you know, you've seen businesses be built from the ground up. So what did you, you know, learn from seeing that firsthand as a kid? Good. Ah. And bad that, that you're taking with you now?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think it was because it was fairly common among those in my family, so grandparents, uncles, obviously direct parent. Um, it was kind of all I knew and so I didn't have a ton of comparison. And so it felt very comfortable to me. And I was attracted to the idea of being able to kind of chart your own course, to create something out of nothing, to kind of have more autonomy and direction over what you're doing. And I think that just always appealed to me. And I was wired that way. And watching them do it gave me the belief that I also could or that it was possible and you could kind of provide for yourself or your family in that way. And also observing that over a long period of time, I think that's one of the challenges of entrepreneurship is it takes a much longer time. When you hear someone recap their story, they recap it in five minutes, but it was actually 10 or 15 years. You know, that success story you hear in 10 or 15 years is a long time. Um, I'm in year we actually on October 18th. This is October 10th. We'll be celebrating four years of launching Trespass. Our first clinic wasn't open, but literally just like Brad and I agreeing to do it. So, um, and you know, four years is really not a long time in the grand scheme of things. So I think I'm taking away the fact that doing something for a long time is really, and really working at it for a long time is a game changer. And they all, um, these were not kind of rocket ship. We build it and sell it immediately. Uh, and so I think to build something meaningful, it does really take a long time. And momentum often occurs in year 10, 11, 12, 13.

Speaker B: You know, it's interesting that you say that because we often only hear about the hot. See the highlight reels, these five minute recounts of, you know, people's journey. But we, we don't hear about the multiple years of struggle, of challenges of those, you know, the, the lows of entrepreneurship. And I feel like that's something that maybe people are starting to talk about more. But tell us about, tell us about that. I know you're in your for right now. What are maybe some parts where you're just like, gosh, I wish someone told me about this or not. Not that you didn't grow up with it, but like, I wish more people knew that X is a challenge.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I think the irony of entrepreneurship is if you, you often hear folks, and this is true for me, if you knew how hard it was going to be, you may not have done it. And so, um, there's something blissful and great about, uh, not knowing the struggle and the risk that you will end up taking and rather just taking the leap. And so I kind of have a counterbalancing view on this one is, um, you should, you know, people can do this. They should be inspired by the idea. And if you work hard over a long period of time, you can create things out of nothing and you can, um. And I think that's really amazing and it's awesome to live in a country that enables that in many different ways. And so, um, yeah, I'm like a big believer in pushing folks to believe that they can do it and truly anyone. I mean, I, it's. It's really amazing to see companies that people have built from all variety of backgrounds. So, um, so, yeah, on the one hand, there's that, and then on the other, I do think it takes a really long time. I, um, just think you have to expect a lot of challenges and know that, um, that's kind of part of it. It's just, it's. I, I guess, you know, you have this belief that it should be easier. And I don't know where that comes from, but it's. It's almost like a limiting belief in a way, and that you think it should be easier, it should be happening faster. And I don't know if that's totally true, and I don't. Maybe it's just me, but, um, I think you have to remind yourself regularly that it did take a long time for many people to build great things, and that's okay. And you really are going to have these moments. The highs are really high, the lows are really low. And there's many things that feel like challenges that you have to just kind of bend or turn. You know, when we were trying to get our first lease done at Trust, that no one wants us to be their tenant when we have nothing but a piece of paper. And we're talking with big landlords about leasing a building for ten years. Um, and we had to work really hard to get someone to take a chance on us. And there's many, many examples of that. You could, you could say that with different employees who we don't have a lot to show for ourselves. Why would they commit their life's work to us? Um, there's countless examples in every company of that. Um, so, yeah, I do think that can get challenging over time.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that we always talk about Instagram versus reality aspect of entrepreneurship. People think it's like private jets and everything's good and you start at day one, and then it's hustle and up and to the Right, Always. And like, that's just not it. Like, you get a couple new clients and everything's great and things are good and then something happens and then you have to adjust and then you're like, how are we going to allocate capital? And we had this saying. It's like we have this whole game of entrepreneurship is taking very limited resources and applying them at unlimited opportunities and possibilities. But like, where do you put that money? Where do you put that time? How do I spend these limited calories? And every decision you make is pretty instrumental. And not all of them will be right if you make mistakes along the way. And you have to. I think identifying mistakes and not being, uh, married to this is the path I walked down and I'm going to keep crushing it. Even though all the data is saying something's going wrong. Like, that's. That self awareness piece is hard too. I think that's really difficult.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you learn a lot about yourself. Um, and yeah, during that journey, um, for sure.

Speaker A: Let's talk about. You identified this market, Market, uh, gap, which, you know, as being pet owners. We both identified too. Lauren uses your services even. And we're thinking through, okay, you found this gap in the market and then you said, all right, we're going to go after it. We're going to really tackle this. What were the next steps and what were the unexpected challenges you hit early on other than the lease problem and the, uh, general startup stuff?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So, um, I think for my co founder and I, we thought a lot about whether or not we wanted to team up together. I think many startups have died through failed partnerships. And so we spent a considerable amount of time really pressure testing our relationship, both, you know, down to values and tough ethical situations and goals in life, and just really making sure we had a lot of alignment because we knew in order for this to be successful, we would have to be highly aligned. So I think partnership dynamics are really important and we spent a lot of time on that and I'm thankful we did because we have a really fantastic partnership and we're very different. And so we have very different and complimentary lanes and skills. And we both have different roles, but we also think very differently. And so that creates a lot of kind of healthy friction around, um, ideation, et cetera. So I think partnership is a big kind of concept. Um, from there we needed to figure out, okay, where are we going to do this? And then we have a physical business, we have these veterinary clinics and we have to, we're not acquiring clinics, so we're taking spaces and turning them into trust vet locations. And so we needed sources of money for that. Brad and I didn't come from a bunch of money or anything. And so we basically got some friends and family money to get going. And we also partnered with a bank and a year later to basically put together the funding to build out these clinics until we had actual revenue. And so that was a big challenge, piecing together who that was, how that worked, negotiating it, et cetera. Um, because that is a. It's fairly capital intensive on the front end to get a clinic open. And then once you have it open, it's not as capital intensive. But, um, that's a big part of our business. Um, I think one of the biggest unforeseen challenges was I had assumed that everyone would just want to work for us because we're awesome. Right? Uh, but it's interesting in our industry and I really understand this in some industries, maybe technology is a good example of this. Working for a startup in the technology field is a bit of a badge of honor. And it's really interesting. I think working in the veterinary industry for a startup. If you're a clinician or a nurse or provider, it's not as kind of, that's not a good thing. You know, why would you want to work for something that could fail? Um, it's a very different dynamic. And so I remember it being very challenging to say, I promise this clinic is going to open on time when we say it is. I promise we're going to be operating a vet clinic and you are going to work in it. So it was really hard to convince people to join our team initially. And it gets, you know, it got a little easier once we had a few folks join us, obviously. But that was really, really hard. Um, really hard. Um, and then we've had many challenges from there. I think the ultimate challenge in our company is, um, I always say that we are. Businesses and organizations are very imperfect, um, because they're full of imperfect people trying to work together on things. And we have lots of different people in lots of different buildings and so organizing around common goals, um, you know, leading effectively, understanding who's doing what, um, amidst, you know, we have a challenging workplace environment where we're dealing with stressful situations with sick animals. And we have licensed and very talented teammates, um, who are working together collaboratively to solve these issues with, you know, dozens of people every day. I mean, this is a kind of a complex service delivery model and you need to work Together as a team. So that is just in itself challenging,

Speaker A: um, with high stakes outcomes. Like extremely high stakes outcomes.

Speaker C: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we want to do a great job. And you know, our team cares deeply for each individual pet that comes into our clinics. And um, and we can't save, you know, it's health care, we can't save everyone. We have tough cases, great cases, you know, and everything in between. So, um, yeah, it's kind of a, it's a really challenging dynamic just generally. Um, so yeah, there's all sorts of challenges, but those are just a few that came to mind.

Speaker B: Uh, it kind of boggles my mind that this was like. The idea of veterinary urgent care is so new. I think I took it for granted. I haven't really had my own pet. This, I've had my dog for the last two years. And so when he got his first case of kennel cough, I was calling my vet and they told me to go to you. Right. But I guess I, I wasn't keeping up with the latest in, you know, veterinary um, like care. So I am curious, why do you think it's taken so long for this space to adopt something that I've, I've taken for granted as an adult? I've been going to urgent care for a long time. So why do you think that the space is such, kind of like a laggard in this area?

Speaker C: Yeah, well, I like that question. I mean, I studied a lot of human urgent care and human urgent care kind of originated 30 or 40 years ago. And it was for the same reasons basically a lot of folks were ending up in the ER with like an ear infection or a cough. And the insurance companies were saying we don't want to pay er prices for things that aren't true emergencies. So it was actually the insurance companies really pushed for some sort of missing middle. And then providers and companies kind of coalesced around that. And over the last 30 or 40 years they've really built it into a massive, massive industry. And the insurance companies love it because tons of these kind of emergencies that aren't true, life threatening emergencies are being seen in a more cost effective way. And veterinary care has followed a lot of human health care trends in a lot of different ways. It's becoming more specialized, it's becoming more, you know, it's becoming more, more important to people. More dollars are being spent on it. And so I do think generally this humanization of pets is leading to care delivery models that are reflecting human health care now. Hopefully veterinary medicine takes the best of human health care and not some of the worst, because obviously human health care has a lot of challenges. Um, but in veterinary health care there isn't as big of an insurance market. And so the consumer. I think one of the things that's been in the media a lot over the past couple of years is just rising veterinary costs and, and the frustration around, hey, vet bills have gotten really expensive and obviously a lot of things have gotten expensive in our economy. But we believe we are coming in with what is needed in our industry for the modern pet parent or consumer, which is there's a ton that isn't truly an emergency that you don't need to take to a 24. 7 Veterinary Emergency Hospital. Veterinary emergency hospitals are expensive and it's not because they're trying to take advantage of you, um, because they have really high costs to run their facilities. They have all sorts of inventory, drugs and medications, they've got bigger facilities. 24, 7 Staffing is really expensive. Just like in human healthcare, there's a whole host of costs to run a 24, 7 facility. Well, um, on an outpatient urgent care basis, we can deliver care at a much more, um, affordable price point for the right set of services. And it creates a ton of value, I believe, for the industry and for um, you know, our local communities. Because you can get in same day in an emergent type situation where if it is an emergency we can refer you, but in many cases we save you a trip or, you know, 50% of the cost. And so as far as why it's lagged, I just think the industry is following a little later than um, human healthcare. And there was this Covid pet boom where there were all sorts of pets being adopted. And that really flooded the industry with, um, you know, renewed awareness and patient um, volume and all sorts of things that kind of sparked different categories in the industry.

Speaker A: I think that makes a lot of sense. And like Lauren and I joke around every now and again with our dogs and we'll pass memes back and forth like, you know, get in loser. We're going to spend $800 because my ears are itchy and it's, you know, more of a, you know, got a stomach issue or a GI issue that is worrisome enough where you want to get it looked at. But your normal vet doesn't have an appointment until two days from now. And you're your point, 24 hour urgent care or not urgent care, but 24 hour, uh, emergency vets, like, you know, bring your platinum card, it's going to Be tough. So I think that fitting that gap makes perfect sense. And we as pet owners, you just kind of take for granted that those are your two options. So on that note. Yeah, because there's not a lot of other people in this space, and it's an emergent space. How do you create that level of awareness? So, like, Lauren got the awareness through for a normal vet, but if I'm a normal pet owner and I think I have two options, how do you create the awareness around that third?

Speaker C: Yeah, well, it's kind of a classic startup challenge is you're trying to create a. Create a category a little bit, and we're really trying to figure that out. Um, we, we do. We kind of want to evangelize this idea more, and we're actively trying to figure out how to do it. Uh, certain, certainly folks having the experience that the experience resonates and they share. You know, the ultimate marketing is word of mouth.

Speaker A: But.

Speaker C: But we're starting to think through how can we be more advocates for urgent care in the industry? Because if the industry and the category grows, I think we'll benefit. And we can do that by launching clinics, but how do we do so more at a kind of a bigger stage? Um, so whether that's through conferences, whether that's through writing, podcasts, social media, whatever we can do, I think there is a lot of talk and interest right now in access to care. And access to care by way of, um, literally getting seen, but also access to care as it relates to financial and your ability to access a certain level of care. And so I think we're on the front lines of that in a really unique way. And so trying to kind of intersect with those conversations and help people understand there's a different option is definitely where we're starting to spend a little bit of our time. Um, but it's a work in progress, and it's hard to. I think what's interesting about our services, you generally, you don't care as much until you really need it. Um, you're probably not waking up thinking about the difference, uh, between primary urgent and ER vet care. And even if I was trying to get your attention, you'd probably be like, well, it's not that big a deal, but suddenly, if your dog's vomiting, you're very interested. But maybe you don't then have the time to be educated. So it is a challenging, uh, thing.

Speaker B: How are you sort of meeting people where they are when they do have an emergency, like becoming an evangelist in your space and driving awareness, maybe on like the, the B2B level, but for consumers and, and that'll trickle down, right? Like once there's advocacy in the industry, I think it'll trickle down to consumers. But for folks who are like, oh my goodness, my dog's puking everywhere. Vet doesn't, maybe their primary vet doesn't know you, doesn't know you're an option. How are you meeting customers where they are in, in a time in a high stakes, high stress situation.

Speaker C: Yeah, um, I think a lot about the two ways we think about it is the kind of physical highway and the digital highway. So we like our clinics to be um, you know, in good places in town that you've likely passed before and so you're familiar with our brand and have some sense that we exist. So I think that's one big piece site selection and signage. Another is the digital, the way that someone would find this digitally and making sure we're there. So our clinics, and this is really a testament to our teams, but tend to be very highly rated. Um, 4.9 to 5 stars, hundreds of positive reviews. And so if someone is shopping for this service quickly on Google Maps or locally, we tend to bubble up to the top pretty quickly if they're looking for a high quality solution and if they're reading our reviews, it tends to be a quick decision. Wow, this sounds like an amazing place. And then a quick trip to our website is helpful but we're doing a lot of things like pay per click ads and social media ads and uh, or posting organically on social media, some email marketing, a lot of the traditional marketing mediums. We don't quite have TV or billboard budgets. But um, uh, but, but we're certainly trying to generate awareness, attending local events. A lot of those things matter.

Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. I think no um, one's watching TV anyway. So I think you're using all of the right, all of the right channels for sure. Go ahead Derek.

Speaker A: I was, yeah, I was just thinking through um, I was really thinking about right now your concept. We talked about starting up in getting a physical location and scaling up that physical location and initially it's cost intensive but then eventually once you get like it on the treadmill becomes pretty capital, uh, efficient. But what I was thinking is if you already have all these mechanisms in place and you're trying to scale and we're trying to grow this concept, have you thought about taking all of your tech and all of everything you're building platform wise and creating, creating that as an enablement tool to spread this other Places without necessarily franchising it or having to expand yourself. Or is that not the lane you're focusing on right now?

Speaker C: Yeah, so it's a really interesting idea. Um, we are very. We like to remain very focused on, um, a small set of things that we are, you know, feel like we can do well. And um, at the moment that's launching veterinary urgent care clinics. We think there's a big opportunity and we wanna stay very focused on that. So there's a lot of offshoots of things like you just mentioned that I think are compelling and interesting and we try to just turn those down. Cause there's so much work to be done on launching clinics. Um, but as we grow, maybe we have the resources to start to tackle some of these ideas. But yeah, at the moment we're really excited about the opportunity in urgent care and just staying focused on that.

Speaker B: And as you continue to scale, you know, how do you. Well, how would you describe your company culture and how do you maintain that as you. As you grow larger and larger and expand into new states? I see you're going South Carolina as well soon.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think, um, when we had a couple of clinics, I think maintaining or being a part of company culture was a little easier in that we could be in those clinics more often. We could see, set the tone ourselves. And the obvious and ultimate challenge will be how do we take, um, good culture and have it in many locations, 10, 20, et cetera. I think that's a really tough challenge. And anyone who thinks there's like a playbook or that's easy, I would question that that's possible. So, um, that's a big. We're very focused on that currently. Um, the ways that we've thought about it so far and we haven't solved this, it's a work in progress. But the ways we're currently thinking about it are, um. I think in order to have a good culture, you do need to have kind of a core purpose and values that you actually believe that are authentic to you, that you're actually chasing. Um, so we, from day one, we had kind of mission and values that uh, we. That we care about that are very true to us. Our values are dare to care, bold, half full, the details matter and trust one another. Um, so there's some fun elements there. But those values are what we use to kind of hire and think about how we manage people on our team. Those, um, kind of guide a lot of our decision making. We have this big goal of serving a million pets, kind of strengthening the human animal bond by supporting a million pets and their families. And so it's, it's, it's a goal that each of our clinics is working towards every day. And it's something that each person in our company can unite around and work on, which is pretty cool. Um, but we're focused very specifically on urgent care. And so some of these building blocks, I think, around what you care about, culture, et cetera, is really important. I think having, um, a founding team that lives those values and cares about the team members and is in our clinics and reflects those is really important for culture. Um, and then hiring people to help lead our clinics who are aligned with those things and are really bought into those things is I think, the ultimate way that we can try champion that forward. And then I do think there's a lot of operational things that we want to get right to make it easier for us to focus on teams and culture versus the busyness and craziness of the day to day. Like, ideally, we are resolving so many of our operational items over time. We're using technology and process to solve a lot of the operational complexity so that our teams can focus on two things. One, um, the clients and patients that we serve, and two, the teammates, the hiring of great people and each other. You know, if we can spend all of our time focused on those things, we'll be really successful. And let's mitigate all the other stuff that kind of bogs you down.

Speaker A: I think that makes a lot of sense and probably good advice for anyone, really. I think a lot of times people get very focused on some of the tactical items that should end up being low friction and transparent when you're executing effectively. And so while I'm thinking about that, you talked about recruiting the right people, and initially that was really hard. Right, you mentioned that that was hard. No one wants to be, you know, jump on an airplane without wings on it and be like, they're going to be there. I promise it's going to happen. But now you've got a really good brand. You're building, like, visual identity is great. Everything's moving up into the right. So is that recruiting process easier? And what does that look like for you and your team as you're building it?

Speaker C: Yeah, um, I don't. So I think it has gotten easier in that we have more of a brand and reputation, as you mentioned. But, um, my experience has been it's not hard to hire and recruit people. It's hard to hire and recruit great people who are kind of aligned with your Culture, um, that is hard to do regularly, uh, at scale, um, and so, and I think that'll always be hard. I, I, I, I think statistically it's hard. If you study most of the kind of hiring statistics, it's just fundamentally a hard thing to do. So we're, we're definitely trying to, um, think through the building blocks of being successful in our company. And step one for us, of our kind of internal flywheel is build, um, an amazingly talented team and take care of our people. And so the, the, the kind of three components of that in my mind are one, you want to be a place that people want to work. People, ah, it's kind of like in, um, I think about marketing, recruiting similarly, a little bit like, you never want to spend all these dollars in marketing towards a product that's not good because you're just kind of causing that product to fail faster. And recruiting tactics don't really work if it's a company that people don't want to work for. You can hire, hire as many recruiters as you want and do as many LinkedIn ads as you want, but if people don't want to fundamentally work for the business, then it doesn't matter. So step one is like, okay, how do we create a company, a culture that people in the veterinary industry like and want to work for? Um, and we have a lot of ideas around that. And it starts with caring for teammates. And, but, um, so that's one piece, but then the two other pieces are, um, you know, compensation, benefits, taking care of teammates, like, how do we take care of people? And then the other piece is how do we build a playbook around finding them? How do we get the word out, find them, recruit them, hire them? And that's where it's a little more tactical. But we're working on developing expertise around those things because if we can nail that, um, then we feel more comfortable taking that to multiple markets. Because the challenge is we enter a new market and we may not have as much history there and we have to start all over. In a way, we're starting to build that vet clinic again that no one can see. And so, um, when we enter new markets, we want to be able to kind of ramp up a little faster.

Speaker A: Yeah, and that's hard, right? Like, when you think about it, the pipeline for recruiting and hiring for most businesses right now is you get two hours of FaceTime with somebody to determine if you're going to spend 10 years of your life with them. Right. And then that's just what we Accept is the method in the uh, and what you're working through. And as you guys are building your culture and as you're trying to grow, you know, that becomes even more important because again, like we talked about, the outcomes of your product and service are extremely, extremely high and there's not a lot of second swings at it if it gets wrong. So what are the next steps you all are taking? Like how are you using data in this process for both recruiting and for your marketing activity and your daily operations?

Speaker C: Yeah, so, um, I mean, big question. Um, we, um, are. We certainly like, like many companies now want to be progressive with our use of, of data and analytics and technology. Um, but um, I think it takes time to layer that in. And what we found is the technology we were maybe using for a few clinics may not work the same for 10. And so there's, there's an element of switching or scaling that technology. Some is working, some isn't. And so I feel like we're definitely in the iteration phase around. Okay, which tools are going to stick, which are going to scale, what does scale look like? I think that's important. And it's, you know, it is hard to start with all of that. Day one. You can't always use an enterprise solution when you're smaller and so you kind of have to grow into some of those things. So I think tool selection and building is really important and it's just a challenge, I think, for fast growing startups. Um, and especially when a lot of things changing with AI and kind of how this is changing our use of these tools. Um, but uh, we're certainly, we're getting to a point where our first clinic will have been open three years as of December. And so we're just now starting to get to the point where we have a little bit more of a track record or data that we can look at and say, okay, what is working? I mean the kind of, the, some of the best business kind of philosophy is, uh, what, what's working? Okay, let's do more of that. What's not working? Let's not do more of that. You know, it's pretty simple. But I do think you want to be careful, you know, to identify what's working takes a little bit of time and you don't want to accidentally identify and say, oh, this is really working when you just didn't give it enough time. Maybe it wasn't. And so we're finally getting to that point where it's okay. All right, we've done some of these recruiting Tactics. Those seem to be working. Let's do those again. Okay. We've done some of these marketing things. Let's keep doing those. So I do feel like there's been a lot of testing and iteration just naturally. And we're trying to coalesce, as you heard me say earlier around. Okay, what's kind of that proven process for this thing? What's that playbook for this thing? And we're actively working on that. Um, we hired a kind of outside consultant to help us, um, roll out, um, kind of a little bit of an internal operating system for how we run our business and get smarter on how we do that. And having a third party kind of look at that with fresh eyes with us has been really nice as we're building out. Okay, what's the most important. How do we develop the playbook around that? How do we execute it regularly, things like that?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's. I think that's exciting. Um, always good to get a fresh set of eyes. Maybe someone who's not as close to it, to pick out things that maybe you wouldn't see just because there'd be a blind spot there. Um, it feels like a weird question to ask because it's such a, like a, Like a nascent category. But what do you think the future of veterinary urgent care looks like? If you had to guess? Crystal ball.

Speaker C: I mean, I'm biased, but I believe that veterinary urgent care is going to be a really big category. And the reason I believe that is because since the beginning of time, people have been wanting things faster and cheaper and better. Basically, that's what they want, and they're always looking for faster, cheaper, better. And what we're offering is, as you know, for a similar service. We can get you in same day at, uh, 30 to 50% reduced cost from an ER, and you have a wonderful experience, and hopefully you leave and your pet is feeling much better and you're kind of on your way. And you, you just can't hide things like that under a rock forever. Because I believe that people want that and kind of the market looks for that. And so I do think fundamentally, kind of the building blocks of what we're doing is essential. And people will really gravitate toward that over a period of time. I don't know how long it will take, but, um, there's no way in my mind that that can't occur and kind of emerge as, as it has in many other industries, in many other ways.

Speaker B: Um, even on the human side. I mean, we've seen it as humans, that that's what people want, you know, for the past 30 or 50 years on 30 years on our side, like no one wants to go to the ER if they can avoid it. You know, can't get in to see your GP if there's a short turn. So we know that the model works and it's just seeing how long it takes for, for it to explode on the veterinary side.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I think in the pet space, things are becoming more personalized. People want, um, you're seeing personalization at every level. And so, uh, the delivery of that care is going to change and become more specialized. I think people are going to recognize. Oh, yeah, this makes perfect sense. I've done this in human health care.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yep. And to that point, the mechanisms you've put in place right now to attract customer base are all there. And I think from a goal, back to the data perspective, then I'll jump off of it. But you'll get to see which acquisition channels are the most effective. Is it referral from your, um, your veterinary primary care network? Is it referrals from person to person? Because I learned about you through Laura and she's like, oh, take my dog here. This is where you got to go, like, oh, done. Right. So person to person. And to your point, you don't wake up every day thinking about what are the options for veterinary health care that I have today? It's more like my dog ate something. I don't know what it is. And we have an issue now. So I have to go to the closest place that I already know, or I have to jump on Google really, really quickly or I have to have someone that's mentioned it. Oh, she's mentioned this before. I'm gonna do that now. And so I think, um, tracking those acquisition channels will be really important for y' all as you scale.

Speaker C: Yeah. And one observation I've had and in talking with other players across separate but related industries, is because there's a local element to a healthcare clinic and there's a personal level to the delivery of that care. It is tricky to say, I'm going to spend a ton of money to kind of accelerate the ramp or the awareness of this thing, it doesn't work in the same way as some other products. There's not this kind of massive exponential. If you invest X, it equals Z. And so there's just this time based element, this person to person based element. I think in what we're doing that gets missed. And so, um, I was in the gym this morning And I was talking to two people who had been to trust that and had a great experience, you know, to go I've never met before. And it was awesome. And they were. And there was another person standing there who was learning about it. And so there's just this. It does take time for people to really uncover it.

Speaker A: When you're looking for your next location, is it, hey, we've got a nucleus right here, so we're going to spread out kind of like the Uber model. Or are you looking more towards, you know, this is where we're at right now. But the animal per human, per mile density of Atlanta is good. So I'm looking here, like, what kind of. Is it? Or is it a hybrid of both?

Speaker C: Yeah. The way that we have thought about it is we want to expand regionally. You know, it's tricky for us to just jump to California, for example. Um, so regional expansion probably makes sense. It's just easier to travel there and we likely have connections or can kind of know the market a little bit better. Um, we pay attention to just total households. I do think there are some cities that are too small for us to go into, um, so kind of households and then growth in that city ideally, and then certainly places where veterinarians want to live and work and veterinary teams are present because we do need to be able to hire. So that's an element. Um, competition. Take into account competition. And so there's a lot of markets that can kind of pass the test. Um, um. But, um, what's funny is people across all socioeconomic backgrounds and geographies have pets. It's, it's not like you could say, all right, our Target market is 35 to 45 year old, you know, whatever. Uh, it's, it's. It really spans abroad, both economically, socially, racially. I mean, a, uh, lot of different people have pets, and so that makes it a little hard to narrow in, but it means we can go into a lot of different places.

Speaker A: Places. Yeah. Your market is humans. Right. Which is kind of a. Yeah. Which is great because it's broad. Your, your total addressable market is huge. But back to where we started the conversation, because the opportunity pie is so big, you have that really difficult job of where do I focus my limited resources at this huge pile of opportunity most effectively. Which is a fun problem.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: So we'd like to wrap these podcasts and we did warn you, fair warning, with a, with a question that we ask every guest. Um, and it's if you could have dinner, drinks with either 18 or 25 year old version of yourself, kind of knowing what you know now, what advice would you give them? What would you tell them?

Speaker C: Yeah, so it would definitely be the 18 year old version. I, the 18 year old and 25 version are very different. I don't know if that's a common answer, but um, in college I, I was really busy and did a ton of things, but school was not really on that list. You know, I got good grades and. But, but it was more just uh, it was not for lack of effort. And so um, I think I would have the career and school dynamic. I think I would encourage myself to um, explore that and explore it fully and talk to a lot of different people and a lot of different. In the places I was interested in, I had some experiences where I um, someone shared an experience about a job that they had and it was negative. And so I was like, well, maybe I don't want to do that job. Well, if I had just talked to a few other people, you know, I would have uncovered, oh well, maybe it was just that person, you know. So I think really kind of exploring different things, not necessarily just in the classroom, but by talking with people, doing the things you might be interested in is just so valuable. I've always learned so much just talking to people and so that would probably be the biggest advice is I love connecting with people and asking them about what they're doing or their industry or what they're up to. You learn so much.

Speaker A: Which is a big reason we started this podcast, to be honest, because we know to your point, when you're younger it's so easy to take a data set of one and think it's a trend. Right?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: And then I think the last question that we like to ask is just because we, we love to read and consume media, um, what podcasts are you listening to? What books are hopefully not gathering dust, but what books are in your queue to read or you know, what's, what's capturing your attention.

Speaker C: Yeah. So I, I go through phases probably like you all. I'm in a phase of not consuming a lot of books and media because I've been really heads down with work. But I love to read and I love podcasts. Um, the, the theme that I've been, I think reading most about currently is um, the impact of kind of diet on health and like kind of functional health stuff. So whether that's through Andrew Huberman's podcast or Peter Attia's book or um, Mark Hyman and some of his work, some of these lab testing companies. It's a growing space, so there's a lot of different books or podcasts or so. So Huberman Lab has had some stuff I've listened to. Mark Hyman's podcast has had some stuff I've listened to. Um, I think I read Good Energy, which was Casey Means book around, um, some of this. And so just kind of thinking and exploring the impact. This diet is something that I've always kind of neglected or just not paid much attention to. So, um, it really does have a bit. It can have a big impact. And so, uh, that's been really interesting for me. And then taking a lot of that and chatting with Chat GPT about it, you know, literally saying, okay, I noticed this. You know, can you give me some more things to listen to here? So, yeah, that's. That's not a specific recommendation, but it's kind of a. What I'm most kind of in tune to right now.

Speaker A: Let's do a follow up on that. Usually we'd end it right here, but this has been top of mind, I think, for, for us as well, for a lot of reasons. And you mentioned using Chat. JPT is kind of, you know, your, uh, your mental sparring partner for this topic. But I'd love to hear more on where that path has taken you, how it's impacted your diet. What thoughts? Uh, you've changed. Like one of the things doing the exact same thing. Um, ChatGPT directed me towards looking at Coenzyme 10 and Ubiquinol. Right. And there's a supplement and I'm like, huh, interesting. So, like, I went down that path and talked with my doctor and was like, oh, yeah, you should absolutely go down this path considering your age and

Speaker C: where you're at in life.

Speaker A: And so it's, uh, funny that we're kind of all, you know, I guess the elder millennials are converging on what does diet actually do versus just eating this. Yeah, where's that landed you? Where's that directed you?

Speaker C: I mean, like, as of today, so it's directed me to. I, I've become pretty interested in gut health, and I don't think I've had a ton of gut health over the past five years. I think it's mostly been a result of lack of sleep, stress, working all the time. Um, I, I tend to work out pretty regularly and I, I feel like I live a healthy lifestyle generally, but I think gut health has been poor, mainly related to some of those factors, plus just lack of awareness of diet. And so, uh, During October. Right now, I'm doing an elimination diet to try to figure out, let's kind of heal the gut and remove a bunch of things, and then let's start adding stuff back in and seeing are there any triggers that I'm either allergic to or I'm really sensitive to that could be helpful. So right now it's no gluten, no dairy, no alcohol, no coffee, no beans. Um, I cut out almonds, so it's intense. Now I'm too early to share any results. I know.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Chicken and water.

Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, you have steaks for dinner every night.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, yeah, it is funny. It kind of forces you to explore different food, but, um, it's too early to say the results, but I would say that is my, like, level of commitment to this concept I'm really interested in learning about. I, um, do feel like there may be some things that I'm aware of that are triggering, you know, me. Um, and, you know, if I can uncover that early, that's a. That's a big deal. So, um, and then kind of face into that back end. Uh, it's only for 30 days, so it's. It's not okay. Now for six months.

Speaker B: Do it.

Speaker A: Yeah, I can do it.

Speaker C: You know, anything for 30 years.

Speaker B: You're halfway, a third of the way through.

Speaker A: Yeah, you're exactly.

Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A: My sister had to do something similar, um, for one of her classes, and turns out she has celiacs. She just thought it was normal to feel like trash all the time. She's like, oh, humans. Feel like this is a human experience. I'm fine.

Speaker C: Oh, man. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A: That's funny. Cj, really awesome hearing about your story, hearing about, you know, where you came from, some of your background, how that drove you to go through the search fund and how you found the, uh, this market that it's completely untapped and has a good, huge potential to grow. And then hearing about how you'll. How y' all are scaling that, how you're using resources, how you're recruiting people, like, some of those challenges that people just do not think of. You know, I think a lot of this is Field of Dreams. If you build it, they're going to come. And that's. That's not true. Everything's high intent. And it sounds like you're doing an amazing job as users of your service. Um, we're really happy and excited to see where it's growing, and thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate the time.

Speaker C: Yeah, thanks for having me. It's so awesome to hear that you, you know, y' all have used the service and like it. I mean, that's kind of the ultimate, um, compliment. It's so fun to see that and see all have been helped. So, yeah, thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it.