Women Are Using AI Less, Will Their Careers Suffer? | Resilience, Career Change & Entrepreneurship | The Sonya Barlow Show

Speaker A: The future is here, so let's make sense of it together. Welcome to Sonia Barlow show, the place for real conversations on lifestyle, technology and the future of work that keeps us connected and informed. This episode we are discussing career changes and building business relationships with Michelle Niziel of IMS Property Group. Be sure to share your thoughts online by tagging onyabarlo UK across socials and just getting involved in the conversation. Michelle. So thank you for joining us. Welcome to the show.

Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me, Sonia.

Speaker A: So, Michelle, people may know you as having a stint on the Apprentice. Do you think that helped or hindered your business hustle?

Speaker B: Yeah, so massively helped. So I always say the Apprentice wasn't a business competition for me. It was resilience training. So although I was fired in week one, that sort of part of my sort of journey, you know, uh, into business, et cetera, was, was one of the most powerful weeks of my life. So I did get fired week one. But I think that I then showed the world that you can get knocked down publicly and still build a multi million pound group of companies. So for me, the Apprentice and why I wanted to do it in the first place was obviously it's a competition and it's a business competition. Um, and obviously I'm a sole director, so I don't have necessarily any peers to bounce off or, you know, so for me it was all about, you know, can I actually get on the show and how well can I do on the show. But for me, the other part of it was that I understood very early on in my business journey that visibility is credibility and any visibility that I can bring to my business is going to increase my business levels and it did exactly that. So, yeah, I, uh, think that anyone listening to your podcast, Sonia, if they're thinking about going on a TV show or just doing anything a bit more in the public domain, yes, you have got to be thick skinned and be open to criticism. But I definitely do think that it is worth it. It's worth all the, you know, trolling that you get and, um, things like that. It did really benefit, you know, put me on the map, so to speak, from a business perspective.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, I love that. Thank you for sharing. And if we took it, take it a step back, I mean, what even encouraged you to, to apply and did you self nominate? That's always an interesting one because as a business owner I, I'm a big fan of self nomination though. I'm going to be really honest with you. Anything I self nominate, I probably don't get. And a lot of the things that I received, be that awards or, you know, keynotes or even book deals have very much landed in my lap through credibility. But that's not to say that you shouldn't try and put yourself forward. So you put yourself forward, or somebody else did on your behalf. Was that a form that you had to film? Was it a discussion that you all had? Was it something that you did when you woke up one day and you're like, today I'm gonna sign up to be on tv.

Speaker B: Yeah. So for a show like the Apprentice, you have to apply yourself. And I was a big fan of the show. I'd watched it for years and years, but was never interested in taking a job. So with the Apprentice, obviously he had in it, you know, a six figure employed role. And that went on for years. I, um, was only interested in applying when it became you would be his business partner because obviously I had a business for quite a long time before I applied for the show. So, so for me it was right now I'm interested because if you're gonna have a business partner, it's gonna be like the UK's leading top person. Right? So that, that's what, what made me do it. But I actually did apply um, a number of times before I actually got on the show. So I'd got quite far through all the auditions every time I did it. The last time that I did it was I'd got really quite far into the process and Olympics I'd, you know, do you remember back when the Olympics were doing and you had to enter a ballot?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: I actually got tickets for one of the final days where I actually ummed and ah, about. And I just thought, you know what, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do the, you know, watch the Olympics because if the Apprentice is gonna be, it will happen again at some other point in my life. And actually, so I went and watched the Olympics and it was amazing. I do not regret that decision at all. And, and then I didn't apply them for a good sort of, uh, three, four years. And then I saw Lord Sugar had tweeted, it was the last day of applications and uh, and I thought, nah, I'm gonna go for it. And I just knew I'd get in at that point. So filled out the application form. Obviously I'd gone through the audition rounds before so I knew what was expected. So just brushed up on my 60 second pitch. You've gotta do as to why you, you know, Lord Sugar would pick you as his business partner and just absolutely nailed it and then just went through round by round. The frustrating thing about any of these TV shows, um, and is the fact that they will never tell you whether you're in or out. So if you don't get contacted by the production team, you haven't made it basically. So you don't actually get told that you're not in, you just get told that you are in.

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: Yeah. So it just keeps, uh, that I suppose there's so many people to contact, they're only contacting the ones that make it through and you're not allowed to discuss it with anybody. So obviously you make friends through the auditions and it is totally forbidden to talk about it. So you had no one to talk to either. So. But I've got to say the audition process is the hardest thing I've ever had to do. Even today.

Speaker A: Makes sense. And you mentioned that you had businesses beforehand and now that you run a business, give us a brief overview. What were you doing before and what is it that you do now?

Speaker B: Yeah, so before I entered the Apprentice, I was a mortgage broker and the business plan was always to expand on that, that to own an estate agency, a letting agency, build property portfolios for clients. And that's exactly what I did. So post Apprentice I thought, well, I'm just going to do it anyway. So it was all about expanding my brand. Uh, basically have a holistic approach so that a client, when they come to see me for mortgage, you can then, you know, any needs that they've got with regards to property and finance, we can service them. So it just made sense because, but that's, that was the business that I had put in the business plan and then that's the business that, you know, that I executed post the Apprentice.

Speaker A: Yeah, makes sense. You know, the stats tell us that around 40% of UK employees are considering changing careers and driven by better pay or a shift towards being squiggly or just the idea that they um, want to take control of their life. And it seems like you did that in a, in a more entrepreneurial way. So what are your tips for anyone who is thinking of setting something up for themselves? Be that a business like you took control of or be that taking control of their career in a way that aligns to their kind of forward thinking vision.

Speaker B: So I think you've got to start before you feel ready. I don't think you're ever. That feeling's never going to come. It's a bit like having a baby or buying a house. Or there's never a good time as far as I'm concerned. So I think, you know, if you are thinking about starting your own business, obviously surround yourself with a really good support network. I'd say that that has been vital for me is just having peers that are going. It doesn't necessarily have to be the same business or the same idea, but just having that, um, people that you can lean on has been completely priceless for me. But yeah, I think it's just about starting before you feel ready. Definitely. There is no rule book when it comes to running a business and I am learning. So I've been in business over 20 years now and I'm still learning every single day, you know, how to do things better, coming up with ideas. And it's just having that support network to, to run that through with other people, you know, other trusted mentors. Yeah, just building a team really. But don't ever think that. So if you've got an idea, you don't have to be dead set on, you know, if something's not working, just pivot, change, you know, you have to be really flexible, you know, when it comes to business. And that's, I think the bit that I really enjoy. But I definitely would encourage anyone if they have an idea, um, and maybe they're in an employed role, but maybe start off slow and small as well. So maybe, you know, work but actually set something up on the side, see whether they enjoy doing it. It's very high pressured running your own business. So it's not for everybody. But just, you know, most of the time people do have the skillset that what's the. My thing is always what is the worst that can happen. So I go, um, through.

Speaker A: The worst that can happen is you get fired and then you talk about it, uh, and you get even more, you know, publications and brand building or exposure. You learn from it. I mean, I like the fact that you're quite honest about being let go. I am somebody who's been let go from work twice in two years. And the first one it was a little bit like what's just happened. The second one I was like, right, well I'm not going to make it three out of three. So what have I learned from this experience? How was I in the wrong, um, and what can I do to improve? How was the business the wrong and what could we do to improve the policies or the processes? And turns out that was the focus point for the problem I was solving when it came to starting my own business. And now five years Six years, seven years on, you can still talk about it as a point of building resilience, which it seems like you have done. And you're now reminding people who are listening to say, look, if you're thinking of starting a business or going through a career change, you're going to need a lot of resilience because a lot of the time it's not going to

Speaker B: go right for you. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, it took me years to be able to talk about getting fired. To be completely honest, it wasn't something I got over straight away. Um, but I think, yeah, I mean in, in business it's been the biggest challenge that I've ever had to face is all the challenges through work because you almost have to change your personality slightly. Um, I'm not, I'm a real softy by heart actually. And I think business has taught me that I've got to toughen up a bit. You know, that not everything, it's not all rosy and you know, sadly, there are a lot of people that want to see you fail. And you know, it's about proving yourself that to yourself that you can do it. But also, you know, facing all these challenges and I think that it just makes you a better person. I think that, um, you don't just change in business. You know, any sort of challenge trauma that's thrown at you, you then totally holistically change as a person. And that is, I wouldn't be the person I am today if I had not run my own business, um, faced all of the challenges that I've done and then obviously now going on to, you know, share my story and try and encourage particularly women, you know, it's not just, not just women, but that's where my heart lies, is, you know, I'm m a woman. There's so many women that I come across that have got a lack of confidence and self belief and I think most of the time that's just what we need is someone in our corner to say, no, you can do this. You know, it's not going to be easy, but you can do it. And I do find that women suffer a, uh, lot from imposter syndrome.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And for anyone listening, imposter syndrome, the feeling that you're not good enough or that you shouldn't be there. And ultimately it's a feeling, it's not a fact. But when you are thinking about facts, you touched on something that made my mind boggle just right now was, you know, you focus more on enhancing and Empowering women because they often feel that they are lacking or they are less than. And especially now with the introduction to some extent, I can't even say the word, the kind of enhancement, um, for anyone listening, of artificial intelligence. I saw the other day in um, Wall street that was women are 20% less likely to use AI and yet that's going to widen that gap between financial means and social means and even progressive means. You know, I'd love to kind of touch on how did you start incorporating artificial intelligence into your day to day life and journey? And what are your top tips for women who are listening, thinking this is something as a tool that we want to use, but we, we don't really know um, if it's for us.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean it, it's completely, I've always worked with it with AI, you know, it's completely transformed my businesses. So it's, it's basically removed all the barriers. So I sort of took it as a really positive. I try and think of everything positively. So you know, for me it's removed knowledge barriers, admin barriers, creative barriers. So I use it as a tool. So I'm not particular, I wouldn't say I was particularly good at uh, writing. So that's not one of my. I can come up with really good ideas but then putting it down on paper I've always found really difficult. So actually learning to work with uh, AI, because most of the time it's getting started, isn't it, with anything. It's that whole fear. So I had a fear of getting started with AI and it was just really immersing myself in it and not spending eight to 10 hours a day trying to learn it or anything like that. Just taking it really slow, few minutes every single day, just sort of going, you know, what are the specific AI tools out there? How can I use it to implement my business? It definitely hasn't, um, I haven't got rid of people to, you know, AI has come in and enhanced the business and not um, threatened anyone, anybody's job, but it's just the speed that we can now do things at. Obviously. Like I will, I used to have to for instance, you know, like calls with clients and summarize the calls. I'd have to like re listen to those calls and then summarize it. Whereas AI tools now do it in like 20 seconds. Um, so yeah, we've really embraced it. Um, and I think, you know, to try and sort of help women out there, it is just taking one tool at a time, just getting to Grips with Chat GPT and actually using ChatGPT to then get ChatGPT to then recommend other AI tools that are specific for your business and then just spending you know, five, ten minutes a day, nothing too heavy, just learning and practicing and you know a lot of my team members where they were sort of frightened of technology even they've started to wrap their head around it. My team at the moment is all female and you know really varying age range and they've all managed to get to grips with it some quicker than others. But yeah, it's just alleviating the fear factor from AI and just thinking this is a tool that can really help us streamline processes and things like that. So yeah, just not having the fear of it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I, and I think a lot of people listening won't realize but we've been using AI for, for you know, years. A good example being if you're using your maps to go from point A to B, that is artificial intelligence in the background and open source that's helping us to move through be that Google, be that Waze. At the same time just yesterday I had some questions around tire pressure and so going on to a, ah, Google or Microsoft and just typing in the question, having recommendations that's you know a database of information that uh, is pre existing, coming through and saying here is what we think you mean and here is a solution. But at the same time you know the way that we're going to diversify the output is by diversifying the input. So we need to encourage more people and different groups of people to be using the tools and systems especially because they're not going away and they are shifting business. How, how is your business shifted in the last three to four years with the introduction of artificial intelligence, especially in the property landscape.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's just a speed things are very much um, we've streamlined uh, administrative, administrative processes. Um, things like you know the call, um, and summarizing phone calls where they used to you know take up to sort of 30 minutes to be able to do that. The onboarding of clients, um, and all the you know our businesses uh, are very much probably 80 to 90% admin focus. So it's all the paperwork and you know that has definitely sped up um, um you know we're able to take on more clients, more business without actually so although we've never let anyone go, we also haven't hired massively either. So AI tools have really helped with that. You know, valuing properties, helping clients, helping clients understand mortgage jargon and educating from a financial perspective. So, yeah, it, it's been totally beneficial for, for my businesses and I know a lot of other businesses out there too.

Speaker A: I was doing some research online and it seems to me that you're doing a campaign for childcare costs and taxes. Am I, am I right in kind of summarizing that in a brief sentence? Yes, tell me more about it. And this is not to make this all about parenthood or motherhood, but I definitely do think that once I'm in, I'm in that kind of time frame now, and that lifestyle now where a lot of people are thinking of that career change and also the lifestyle change of potentially being parents or choosing not to be parents or you know, moving out of London or moving abroad, whatever that might be for them. Um, there's a lot of life shifts happening and unfortunately a lot of them are also influenced by financial circumstances and means and social mobility and race and culture. And it seems like childcare costs and, and, and parenthood and motherhood is a, is a real issue, especially if you're self employed where you really don't get any kind of real support. So, yeah, just talk me through your campaign. Um, and the why, to be honest with you.

Speaker B: Yeah, so there's sort of three facets to me, uh, obviously property and finance with the businesses that I run. And then I am so passionate about supporting females in entrepreneurship. There's another side of me where it's not gender driven, it's just literally entrepreneurialism. How can I help in any way that I can to try and improve the landscape of entrepreneurs? Because let's face it, I think we're the baseline of the UK economy. You know, the more entrepreneurs that we've got, the, the more revenue we can drive as a country. So for me, I sat there and thought, what are the biggest barriers for people entering entrepreneurship? And that was childcare. You know, I would never actually benefit from the petition that I've created. However, I've got two small children. I only had two weeks off a maternity leave with both of them. And that wasn't through choice, that was through necessity. Because I wouldn't have had a business to come back to had I not have only taken two weeks off. So I sat there and thought about what would, uh, I, before I had children, what would have really benefited me, and that was childcare to be a tax deductible expense for anybody who works for themselves. So not just females, anybody. And basically it is ludicrous to me that you can expense, ah, an office lunch or a Networking meeting or a laptop or any equipment. But you cannot expense um, the, the tools that allow you to run that business, which is childcare. So for me childcare isn't a luxury, it's infrastructure. So I created a petition for childcare to be a legitimate business expense. That petition closed actually on Friday. But off the back of the petition I've been having brilliant conversations with MPs um, as to how we actually move this forward. So you know, it definitely hasn't ended with the petition. I'm m going to carry it on and see where we get with parliament and trying to push something to help entrepreneurs either enter the market, enter entrepreneurialism or assist you in scaling your business. Because if you're able to make childcare legitimate business expense and say you're a one man band, I know for me that would have helped me hire a part time administrator which would have then benefited me and my family but also push the business forward. So that is the why behind it. And I'm still very much focused on how we drive this as a change and a bit of a movement.

Speaker A: No, that's really impressive. And again is that entrepreneurial mindset, isn't it? It's here's a problem. Is there a preexisting solution? If not, what are the tools and resources I have in my hand to make it work? How do you create and maintain business relationships when you do have three different facets and you're managing not just motherhood but you're managing running a business and being a manager to a team but also building out your own professional identity?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean I, I love people so for me it's really easy to network because I, I get so much out of spending time with people. Like you said, my time is anytime anyone's done a swot analysis on me, every, every time it comes up that sadly I'm very time poor. However, I treat relationships like partnerships and not transactions. So for me building that relationship with someone is so important. I think the number one factor that I've always done, which I do think has been led to um, one of the main reasons of my success is I always deliver value and not ask for nothing in return. It's always been my way. So you know, whether that's delivering content or someone messaged me privately and they want a uh, quick 30 minute chat and I'm helping them build their business and I ask for nothing in return. But what does come around is that, you know, I've never actually had to ask for business if that makes sense. So yes, we sort of, you know, do advertise and things like that. But I've always been really, um, I don't say lucky because obviously I'm putting the time in, but it does have a, have a habit of not necessarily directly coming around. But if you're such a positive influence in the, especially in the entrepreneurial space and you're just give, give, give, give, give, people do want to give in return. So I just find that just by helping people just brings me so much joy. Anyway, it's my, it's my, you know, makes me feel good. But then off the back of that, because you give so much, people then do want to give back. So, um, yeah, I just think, you know, being consistent with people, it builds trust and then I think trust builds opportunities. So um, I think networking and maintaining relationships, whether that be, you know, new people that you just met, people that are in your market or your industry, is so important. It's been a massive part of building my brand and just something I really enjoy doing. And maybe just to touch on, if you are quite an introvert, which I'm not, it is just finding that place where you feel safe, you know, um, and you will find there will be a group of people out there where you can join and work on your confidence and spend time with the right people and give back to, you know, the right organizations. Um, so I do think, you know, whether introvert or extrovert, it is really important for you to put yourself out there.

Speaker A: Uh, it's really interesting you brought up the introvert versus extrovert point. I'm currently in the process of, um, writing my next book and one of the spaces that I'm researching into is this introvert versus extrovert. And a lot of research, be that from Harvard Business Review or other kind of sites, shares that introverts are better networkers because ultimately they listen and they build one to one relationships and they don't, they're not kind of uh, in the process of just walking around the room for the sake of it. Whereas extroverts can create the small talk and they can work the room and they're a lot more confident in approaching new, uh, new spaces and being uncomfortable with that in mind. What, what have you found works for you as an extrovert with a public profile, but also especially when you want to network upwards because, you know, you spoke about earlier in the show, you wanted to speak to Lord Sugar and you wanted him to be your business partner. You were working upwards, not necessarily sideways. And I often find that when you have a little bit more of a profile it also feels like you have a little bit more to lose. So how do you overcome that who I am M versus you know, who I want to be talking to element?

Speaker B: Yeah, it is tricky and it is something I think you have to be mindful of every time you're posting, every time you're doing a podcast, every time you're doing an interview. Because as you know Sonia, I mean you've been doing this a long time. Things can get taken out of context. Magazine and, and um, newspaper articles, you know, they love to lead with a headline that isn't necessarily the truth. Um, because obviously it gets more clicks or more readers. So it is something that, you know, I think a lot of media training does help with that side of it. But yeah, it is. You do have to. I find myself having to go further afield and looking at, you know, I'm constantly looking at trying to get in a room where, you know, I'd love to be in the position where they are and you know, you've got to continually keep looking upwards for people that inspire you and it is just about, yeah, just trying to get into those rooms. There are various levels of uh, networking and membership groups and funny enough, I'm looking at that at the moment, which is, you know, what are the rooms that I can be getting in where you know, I'm level, leveling up. Because as much as it's lovely, you know, to network with a whole wide range of people and their businesses, I do think it is important to be getting in rooms where, you know, you've got a lot to learn from somebody else. So that could just be, you know, a uh, completely different industry or you know, someone who's running a nine figure business or something, you know. But it is important I think to be surrounding yourselves by people that inspire, inspire you. So yeah, it's something that gets tricky. I think the bigger the profile you've got, I think some, what is it, the harder uh, people like you to fall. But uh, it's not going to stop me from continuing to, you know, try and share as much as I can to help other people because I do genuinely believe that if you're a good person, you know, ultimately if you say something, you know, that that comes out slightly wrong. You hope that people are just going to forgive, you know, for um, and focus on the good, trying to, the good stuff that you're trying to deliver rather than attack you on the tiny thing, you know, tiny thing that you slipped up on so to speak.

Speaker A: Is there a networking message that you've recently used to reach somebody new or upwards, uh, that you could share with us that's worked or equally something that you've tried in the past that hasn't worked?

Speaker B: Um, do you know what I am doing now, which I was absolutely petrified of? So public speaking has never been something that I have ever, ever thought. I absolutely love doing it. And this year I always give myself, you know, New Year's comes around and I'm the sort of person, I don't know about you, Sonia, but I like to write New Year's resolutions. And um, for me this year it was right, push yourself out your comfort zone and do something that you don't think you're necessarily very good at. Uh, and that was public speaking. Public speaking for me has been the best networking tool I have use to date because you're the one that's on stage, people are listening to what you've got to say and then when you come off stage and you're there for the rest of the event, it's been incredible. So I've got to say that if you're thinking about leveling up, you really need to consider, uh, keynote speaking, because that has been the best tool that I have used so far.

Speaker A: No, super, super helpful. And as a professional public speaker, I can definitely echo that point. But for me, when I first started, for anyone listening before you even get to the keynotes, putting your hands up in meetings, being, putting yourself forward in, in your company, just being able to share something through your medium. And I think public speaking, a lot of time people think that it also involves just like speaking loudly. But actually it's not, it's just being constructive and coming in with data points and researching and you know, doing an email follow up. Following up is so important. And then for me especially public speaking was able to it really well, public speaking for me really actually helped me learn a lot about myself more than it did about other people. I go into rooms and think I know something and then you'd ask someone, can you repeat what you think you've learned? And turns out that's not even what you're trying to say. So it actually made me less noisy and a better networker. Uh, for, for sure. And I'm really glad that you've raised the point of actually you're taking yourself out your comfort zone. Because if, if I was to take a step back, uh, you've been on the Apprentice, you run a business, I would, I'm now surprised that Maybe public speaking wasn't something that you were doing either naturally or it wasn't your forte. But it seems, you know, we can grow at any and every point. And as we start to wrap up, what is your prediction for the future? I mean, it's a very broad question, but it's one that I'd like to leave our guests with is what do you, what do you think will happen?

Speaker B: So I personally don't think that AI will replace jobs, but people who use AI will replace people who don't. I think that's one of the factors that I'm quite conscious of at the minute. The second is, and, uh, no shock because obviously I'm a huge fan of female entrepreneurs. I think women will lead the next wave, um, of entrepreneurship and I think that's particularly in service based and digital businesses. And then I'm a great believer and I think what's going to happen is the hybrid wealth building, so careers, property and personal brands. And I think that will become the new normal. And I don't think people are going to rely on one income stream again. I think it's going to be multifaceted. So that's my prediction, Sonia, for the future.

Speaker A: No, I really, really like that. And when it comes to being in the hybrid world, how do you keep yourself, how do you build your profile in your workspace or as a business owner without burning out? I mean, what are some of your top tips that you have learned from personally that you can share with our wider audience?

Speaker B: Is a definitely. And I was never good at this is factoring in, you know, uh, personal time. Time for me, like non negotiably in my diary goes, you know, I pick my children up from school every single day unless I'm at a keynote and I physically can't get there. But 98% of the time I'm picking the kids up from school. That's really important. I tell you what was a big one for me is I having the diary and it's on repeat. A facial and a massage once every four weeks. And that is non negotiable. So it doesn't matter what comes up, what meetings, what clients want to see me, it's get it done. Because I really enjoy doing that. Um, it's basically self care is you have to factor in and it goes in my work calendar, uh, various points and things that I enjoy doing. Because then all of a sudden you do feel the balance. It's all about healthy balance. I work a lot, but it doesn't mean that I can't treat myself every now and again to time to myself. And then, for instance, I'm going Christmas shopping with my best friend a week on Monday. So taking the day off, um, and you know, factoring in those fun things that you look forward to does not mean that your business is going to crash and burn. You have to prioritize yourself because if you're not happy and you're not taking care of yourself. The other thing is I do a gym session pretty much every day as well. So it's about the, you know, mentally and try and eat as. As well as I possibly can as well. So I think holistic again, holistic approach to looking after yourself and definitely factoring in fun things for you. That's got to be. That's, uh, my mantra anyway, such a

Speaker A: great positive note to leave on. I mean, during this discussion alone, I have learned the importance of knowing your why and connecting with that vision. Especially when you are either building out your career or your business. There's something to be said around not just being in a position where your business hustle needs to be done, uh, in your own, on your own salary. I think it's really smart to be building on somebody else's budget and thinking about, do I need to quit my job for this, or can it be a side hustle? Michelle's made a great point about AI being used as a tool to create efficiencies and to make sure that you are ahead of the game and your own game included, versus just being left behind. Because if you don't start using artificial intelligence, there's a possibility that the jobs will progress faster than you do. And we've seen that with the rate of change and business networking and relationship building is really a key part of your industry. And that's either putting yourself in places of discomfort and letting people see a vulnerable side, or it's not being afraid to put yourself forward, introverted or extroverted, to create and maintain those relationships. Be that dm, um, be that conversation or be that going and putting yourself on the public stage. Michelle, thank you so much for your time. Is there anything I've missed or anything you want to add? And most. How can people stay connected with you?

Speaker B: Yeah, so no, Sonia, I think that's been brilliant. It's been lovely to chat with you today. But, yeah, so my name is Michelle Nizio. I think if you just Type that into LinkedIn, we can connect. And then on Instagram, it's Ichelleniziel Fab.

Speaker A: Well, you've been listening to the Sonia Barlow Show. If this episode resonated screenshot it, tag it, tell me your biggest insight. Slide into our DMs. Um, it's Onyabalouk and. Hello. Sonyabarlo.co.uk. thank you so much. Stay connected and stay inspired. I'll see you for the next one.