Zero Waste at 73,000 Seats: How Mercedes-Benz Stadium Built a Closed-Loop System

Welcome back to the Sustainable Design Lab podcast. I'm Brody Vander Dusen, and I'm Chris Bradley. And on this show, we sit down with the innovators and leaders who are rethinking sustainability systems from the ground up. At the lab, we're not just watching innovation unfold, we're cultivating it and sharing the stories shaping a more circular future. And today's episode is a little different because Brody unfortunately couldn't make the interview in person. And after hearing about the tour that Chris got, I have so much FOMO. And honestly, you probably should, because walking through the Mercedes-Benz Stadium in Atlanta, what stood out to me immediately was that sustainability there really isn't treated like a sideshow or side initiative. It's built directly into how the venue truly operates. This isn't a stadium with recycling bins and solar panels. It's so much more. Yeah, not even close. We're talking about one where it's one of the first stadiums in the world to achieve true platinum zero-waste certification. Location. They've built very large-scale composting systems, integrated sustainable food service packaging recovery infrastructure, water reuse systems, beehives, community gardens. I mean, it's pretty impressive, all while hosting massive live events. And I think they told me that they have operations there over 350 days a year that they're actually cooking and doing food. So it's a busy arena. Wow. And what I think is especially interesting for our audience is how connected all of these systems are. The packaging choices connect to recovery systems, recovery connects to fan behavior, and procurement connects to circularity goals. Exactly. And it feels much more like sustainability designed as infrastructure rather than a collection of isolated projects. So today, Chris is joined by Andrew Bohenko, Sustainability Initiatives Manager at Mercedes-Benz Stadium, to unpack what it actually takes to operationalize sustainability at that scale. Andrew, welcome to the show. Thank you, Andrew. It's been great getting a tour of this amazing facility. So I thought I'd jump in with some of our questions. When people hear sustainable stadium, they might picture solar panels or some recycling bins. But I think after walking with you, seeing the beehives and the gardens and your full waste recovery facility It's obvious that the sustainability strategy here at Mercedes-Benz is much deeper than that. So how do you describe the scope of what Mercedes-Benz Stadium is trying to accomplish? I mean, the scope of what we're trying to accomplish is pretty broad. We want to be a unique space that has sustainability elements and produces a zero-waste environment that can be emulated by other unique spaces. So understanding that within our 2 million square feet of our urban-centric environment, that is a very different space than anybody else of our like size. So if you're in Philadelphia or Seattle or Kansas City or Texas, you're going to have different vendors that you're going to work with. You're going to have different size of equipment and different things, and your, your building's going to operate in different ways. But we want to be a space that showcases how all of those spaces can operate and shows a better way forward for sustainability. So that's kind of what we want to do on a national level. We want to be that space that can be highlighted for people to be a showcase for saying, this is a place where it works and it works well and it's smart business, then within our own community and the community of Atlanta, we really want to focus on being a space of inspiration and education and then also looking at uplifting community because ultimately we feel that if you're uplifting the community that surrounds your stadium, that's ultimately going to be sustainable because it's local. So looking at those two elements, always having one eye on each of those to make sure that we're looking at the community that surrounds the stadium, but we're also looking at what kind of impact we can have on a national level. And you're seeing that through things like our zero-waste college football championship that was net neutral by offsetting the carbon and water and being over 90% diversion for our entire campus, not just for Mercedes-Benz Stadium, helping leverage what we do at the stadium for an event like college football championship, and then helping the Georgia World Congress Center be a zero-waste space for that event. And then looping in the State Farm Arena that is a zero-waste arena as well, making sure that Whenever we have the opportunity to host an international event, we're not just gonna do the best by-fan experience, which we do every time. We're not just gonna be one of the cleanest and most hospitable spaces that you can come and visit, but we're also gonna be a space that is gonna highlight sustainability and zero waste so that other people can see how that's done. And then you're seeing the impacts of that as College Football Championship moves to Miami and they're increasing their ability to do this sustainability work in spaces that aren't typically known for sustainability. Well, it's definitely inspiring. It was so much more than what I was expecting. Kind of read up on it, and it's pretty impressive. It's different to see than it is to read. Definitely. Which is why we always like to host people, and we love doing these tours. We do corporate tours all the time. We have 65,000 school kids that come through the stadium as part of our tours and education program with our senior tours manager, Dawn Brown, who me and her co-chair our Green Team and our Green Team leadership board that spearheads all the initiatives around sustainability for the stadium. That's fantastic. And yeah, we're planning to have a sustainability event ourselves here later in August, and we're really excited about that. So one thing that immediately stood out to me while we were taking the tour of the stadium was how really intentional, I would say, the systems are. This doesn't feel like individual sustainability projects that are just stitched together. It really feels like it was engineered into one connected ecosystem. So was that a systems-level mindset Was it there from the beginning? What kind of inspired that? It was there from the beginning, but the pace of the stadium made it so that it wasn't instituted at the beginning. Just standing up a 2 million square foot stadium is an incredible effort and feat. To do that along with zero waste as you're opening is really difficult. So we built out these spaces with sustainability in mind, understanding that the goal was always going to be being zero waste for an event and then being zero waste for a month and then being zero waste for a year and then ultimately being zero waste every single day. We knew that was the goal, and we also know through our pillars that there is no finish line when we're working in this space under the Blank family of businesses, and that when we reach that goal, there needs to be another spearheaded goal that we want to find and attach ourselves to and ultimately achieve, and then find something else to push ourselves further. So when the stadium opened, we had a plan to get to zero waste, how we were going to do that, commodifying different things around cardboard and aluminum, utilizing our corporate sponsorships for positive impact within our zero waste space. So instead of us taking on that aluminum and putting that into our sustainability space, we donate that aluminum rebate to Novellus, one of our corporate sponsors, for Recycle for Good campaign where we're building Habitat for Humanity houses. So increasing our visibility around that space, building up to zero waste in 2022, we were able to utilize that time when the building wasn't as active during the height of COVID between 2020 and 2021 to really develop a plan to get to zero waste every single day. As we were going into April of 2020, we were looking at hosting the Final Four for the NCAA, and we wanted to be the first zero waste for Final Four. So we invested a good amount of money in the infrastructure for the bins, the signage that you see here today, and the operating procedures to make it so that we were gonna be a zero waste Final Four. We had achieved two zero waste events in the stadium in March of 2020, and then obviously that all changed March 13th, 2020. But what we were able to do during that of downtime was redevelop processes to make sure that when everybody was coming back into the stadium and we were in a full slate of events again in July of 2021 and moving forward, that everybody that was coming back into the stadium would have a baseline of knowledge of sustainability. So we were going to take that infrastructure, take the processes that we developed, and then implement all of those at the same time as we were coming back in. We took a big hit on our diversion rate. Going through that pandemic time, the height of that pandemic. And then as we were coming out of that in July of 2021, we found a new composting partner in Waste Eliminator, and they were doing the hauling for us as well. We found more functionality in our plastics recycling, and then we were able to leverage that into creating a space that from July of 2021 to March of 2022, we were able to get up to a 90% diversion rate again in March of 2022, and we've never fallen below that rate anytime time since then. So taking that time, taking that concert that we have around Coldplay in 2022 in June, making that into a zero-waste event and then leveraging their social media to highlight that, then taking that, rolling that into a true certification that we have a third-party auditor that's coming into the stadium and saying, yes, you are doing right by the materials that you have inside the building, and that over 90% of your waste that's coming into Mercedes-Benz Stadium is diverted away from landfill without incineration. That's such an impressive capability or achievement. And I think Mercedes-Benz Stadium became the first stadium in the world to achieve this true platinum certification for zero waste at a platinum level. So we were able to look at what we did for our LEED certification for the building and construction and how we got to a platinum level for that and utilized what we have in the stadium and the processes and that as the framework and the groundwork for a true certification in 2022, we decided to go after that again, seeing the kind of feedback and reception that we got from utilizing Coldplay as the social media and communicator for that event, deciding that that was an important path for us to go down and not just getting that true certification, but getting that true certification at the highest level possible. So making sure that we were zero waste certified at a platinum level through TRU administered by the GBCI, and then making sure that we highlight validated that in a lot of different ways. And that's not just the achievement, but the people that are behind that achievement. So in January of 2023, when we received that certification, we did a dedication on the field where Arthur received the true certification plaque. But on the field, just behind him was all the people that worked in our zero waste sorting facility. So those people were on the field with Arthur and with the rest of the leadership team showcasing that it's really a lot of people from the top level of leadership and ownership all the way down to everybody that is doing the sorting, the marketing, the communications, the operations, the housekeeping around the stadium is equally important in that we structure our green team as a middle-out kind of distributor of all that information. So making sure that everybody around us knows what we're trying to achieve, absorbing feedback from leadership, from our operations team, and then implementing that into a sustainability plan that we're then regurgitating out to our leadership and our operations team to make sure that we're consistent with our messaging. That's really cool. So I'd like to pivot a little bit and talk specifically about packaging and food service because that's something that our audience thinks about constantly. And you have millions of guests, dozens of concession partners, incredibly fast-paced environments. How do you approach aligning packaging materials with the stadium's recovery systems? So in a lot of instances, we are really fighting against the supply chain on both sides of our system. How utilizing and recyclers and then how we're pulling stuff into the building. We have a purchasing policy that is supposed to help alleviate some of the issues around the supply chain. So making sure that we're going through the simple due diligence of if you're ordering something in bulk, that you're reaching out to that vendor right after you make that purchase to see if there's a way to eliminate any plastic packaging or Styrofoam packaging from that. Making sure that when you're looking into buying stuff from different spaces and different vendors, that you're finding the most sustainable options. We have a green catering guideline for our internal food service. So if you're having a lunch and learn or something around those, are you finding a restaurant that is using compostable materials or are you reaching out to that restaurant after you've made the order and saying, we don't need the plastic flatware, we have compostable flatware in our stadium. Doing those simple changes makes a big difference when you're working in a supply chain that's not conducive to what we want to do in our stadium. And then there are instances where we we can't work around those issues where we do have seafood and different kinds of proteins that are coming in insulated Styrofoam packaging, then finding what do we do with those? How do we utilize the outlets that we have in the stadium to make sure that that stuff is diverted responsibly? So utilizing Atlanta's Center for Hard-to-Recycle Materials for any Styrofoam packaging, motor oils, paints, large-scale batteries that we're getting through the stadium that we don't want to go to landfill or that shouldn't be going to landfill, things like that. And I think one of the most fascinating parts of the operation to me was the Resource Recovery Room. Yeah. And it almost feels like a mini material recovery facility on its own, still directly into your stadium. Can you explain how that works and why it's so critical to the success of your zero waste program? It works pretty consistently. Like, we're open down there basically 365 days a year. We have internal staff that works down there as well as third-party contractors to make sure that we have the staff available to do the sorting on event days. When we have a major event in the stadium and we have 71,000 to 73,000 people in the stadium, that space becomes incredibly important. We go through thousands and thousands of bags every single event, making sure that we have that final screen of people, 12 to 14 people back there that are sorting through every single bag, makes it so that we're capturing as much of that material as we can. There is light contamination that's coming out of the concourse from our fans. If somebody is missing something and they're throwing a plastic bottle into our composting side, we want to make sure that that is eliminated from going to our compost patch, which is why we have a clear bag policy in the stadium. It makes it super easy for somebody to grab a bag, look through it really quickly, flip it over a couple of times, and then see if there's any contamination in that bag, tear it open, and then look through it a lot easier than if it's a dark black plastic bag. So making sure that we're setting our people up to be successful in that space and that we have thought through every contingency and every element of that to make sure that they're successful in their sorting. That all was developed over the past 8 years as we've kind of had the stadium operating at its most efficient and having over 50 major events a year and over 200 private events a year. We get a lot of practice and we see a lot of different types of people coming through the stadium and a lot of different customers coming through the stadium. So we've worked through how to deal with each one of those problems that might come up. But we're doing that by having those people down there directly after the event, along with somebody that is leading that team internally, and then making sure that as the waste comes down, it's being organized and separated properly. So as people are bringing waste bags, we have different processes depending on if it's mostly compostables, mostly recyclables, or if it's a mix of both, or if it's heavy food waste. And then making sure that everybody that's working down there understands their process in that element. And then we make sure that those people work for 7 hours, their shift is complete, and then we'll have another group that leapfrogs that group for another 7 hours. So consistently sorting back there to make sure that we're getting through everything as quickly as possible. That's another element that makes us so successful. We don't want stuff to just sit around. It gets much more difficult to deal with and to properly sort if it's been sitting back there for a day, 2 days. Packaging is entering a new era where sustainability is tied directly to cost, compliance, and design decisions. So we pulled together our 2026 Packaging Trends Report. It's not just trends, it's what we're actually seeing across the industry. Fiber expansion, natural polymers, refill systems, and a real shift towards more accountable, data-driven packaging. If you're trying to stay ahead of where things are going, it's a must-read. Download it for free at sustainabledesignlab.com or check the link in the show notes. How long does it take once you're done with, say, an event that has like 70,000 people? So for a major event, we look at events and how they're structured and how long it takes to recover based on a few different elements, not just people in the stadium. For instance, there's 73,000 people here, like there will be for the FIFA games that we have 8 of. They will be in the building for 5 to 6 hours from doors opening to the end of games. That is a little bit different than our Atlanta United games. If there's a full stadium for those, they're only going to be here for about 4 hours. You take a concert, people could be here up to 8 hours. So that number of people varies depending on time in the building. So we look more at time in the building than we do for number of people in an event. For a Falcons game where the time in the building's about 6 to 7 hours and we have 73,000-ish people in the stadium, it'll take about 280 people hours to sort through all of that waste. And we'll do about 26 to 28 tons of waste for one of those Falcons games. Had up to 220,000 pounds of waste for the Peach Bowl last year. So Indiana versus Oregon. We had over 200,000 pounds of waste come through our stadium for that one event alone. Wow, that's incredible. And when you even look at that on a per-person basis down in the recovery room and, and you see what that looks like in actual mass in one place, it's pretty incredible to see it go from 15 high-foot mounds of waste bags at the end of the first shift on, let's say, a Saturday night, and then by Sunday afternoon noon, that's completely alleviated and all of that is being sent to recycling or composting. All right. And as I walk the concourse with you, it really became obvious that sustainability here is incredibly visible. All of the signage, the sorting stations, the fan touchpoints. It feels behavioral, I would say, by design. So how intentional was that strategy? It's incredibly intentional. I mean, like I said, we stood that up over about 5 months, the signage package and the waste bin package that you see out in the concourses. And that was intentional. Made with a group of people that were looking at developing a zero waste plan for that Final Four. And so we took a lot of time and care into thinking of our signage and what that was gonna look like across the stadium because we wanted to make it, again, successful for the fans. Understanding that when you're in a concourse and it's very easy to see that signage and those bins when there's nobody here, but if you imagine 20,000 people, 25,000 people on that Level 100 level, trying to get to different places, standing in line, utilizing different food vendors. There's a lot of activity on a game day. It doesn't make it as easy to see. So developing that recycle bottles and cans, compost everything else with not only the color coordination to make that more visible for people, but the signage that has pictures attached to it as well. Doesn't matter if you're coming from a different country or a different space and you don't necessarily see that signage and you don't see those words. You understand one of those elements and it makes it so that you have the ability to do the right thing when you're in the stadium. Along with that packaging of those signage and bins, we were really intentional about how you see that messaging before you even get your food. Really focused on making sure that there's 3 points of contact with our sustainability and zero waste messaging before you even pay. So if you walk up to a point of sale, you'll notice that down at where you tap your card, card, there's a little bumper sticker that says, "Recycle your bottles and cans, compost everything else." If you're looking up at the menu on a game day, there's a recycling IPTV message that has that zero waste messaging attached to it. And then if you look to the left and to the right of any concession in Mercedes-Benz Stadium, there's going to be eye-level signage that's going to be above a bin that's going to have that same recycle bottles and cans and compost everything else message. So before you even pay, you're getting 3 points of contact to understand what we're doing. So when you are done with your food and you maybe had a couple of drinks or it's the end of the game and you're tired and you're walking out of the stadium with 60,000, 70,000 other people, that you're able to look at that bin, understand, yes, I've seen this messaging before. I know that all of my compostables and my cup and my straw and my flatware go into this left side compost, and then my bottles and my cans go into that right side. And they're able to distribute those quickly, not freeze up with 15, 20 people behind them and then throw it all into one side, separate the things accordingly and orderly move along to the exit, and then the people behind them are doing the same thing. So you can walk around the stadium at the end of any event here, and you can see that our fan-facing bins are about 95 to 99% contamination-free at the end of those events. Well, I love that it's just 2 bins. Yeah. Because as soon as you have 3, it just seems like people are going, oh wait, which one? We were very intentional about the sizing of the entry point for that waste. So making sure that our compost bins had a large opening and our recycling bins had a 5-inch diameter hole. Making sure that our recycling stream is as clean as it can be because that stuff can be sorted so much easier when it's clean and it doesn't have chicken bones or nacho cheese or ketchup and mustard packets on top of it. We don't use packets in the stadium, we use bulk, but in a tray, ketchup, mustard, getting all over that stuff, that makes it very difficult to sort out those compostables and different recyclables where it's much easier to pull a plastic water bottle or an aluminum can out of a bag of compostables. So, Another question for you. So I know the stadium has explored emerging materials and partnerships. Yeah. We talked a little bit about seaweed. We're seeing biomaterial solutions like PHA-based straws. When you evaluate new packaging technologies, what are the key things that you look for beyond just the sustainability claim itself? Yeah, I mean, we're looking for companies that want to do the right thing and want to invest in this sustainability program that uplifts communities. So it's not necessarily just about what your materials are, but how are you working towards creating more sustainable spaces with what you're doing. So first, we're obviously gonna look at that supply chain. We always want to highlight the Southeast. So if we can find partners that are headquartered in the Southeast or located in the Southeast, that makes that time for manufacturing to travel so much shorter, which reduces that carbon, obviously. So we're looking at those elements as part of that. We're looking at how potentially you can help us within our corporate sponsorship space. So we wanna find partners like Fade that is a PHA straw that is localized in Atlanta that makes a PHA straw that is marine biodegradable within 30 days, and then utilizing their corporate sponsorship to highlight what they're doing, as well as showcasing sustainability partners in the stadium like Novelis, Delta, Kimberly-Clark, finding those spaces where we have corporate sponsorship combined with sustainability elements, utilizing those activation dollars towards sustainability elements in the stadium or community activation outside of the stadium, like river cleanups and different things like that. So we want to get into the holistic elements of what a company is doing, talk with them, understand what their sustainability goals are, and then curate how we're going to utilize their packaging or materials in the stadium around what their goals are going to be. And then we have some of the same pillars as well. So if you're highlighting water like Coca-Cola, then we are going to find a sustainability element in the stadium to highlight the packaging that you guys are using or the elements that you guys are using in our stadium. I love that. So I think what really kind of struck me, I think after visiting the stadium, is it really functions like a lab for circularity of sorts. And so when you step back, what lessons do you think other industries like retail, packaging, hospitality, logistics can take away from the systems you've built here? You have this closed-looped kind of system, so it's like the perfect lab to really understand. Yeah, I think being part of the Blank family of businesses gives gives us specific insight into those spaces. We also operate the PGA Superstores. Arthur Blank operates the PGA Superstores, so that gives us insight into retail. Working with Fanatics in the stadium around retail packaging and how we can recycle textiles is an important element. But lessons that we have towards those other spaces is that if you put somebody in a position of a sustainability manager or a sustainability coordinator and you give them the ability to go out and find local initiatives or partners that are going to come in and take your materials, you can find ways to integrate smart business into your processes and your company without having to make it something that's going to be a negative cash flow for your business, without taking something that is considered to be a green premium in most spaces and turning that into a smart business decision that's going to have positive paybacks for your company over years and over time so that you're creating elements around an ROI that's going to make it so that it's creating a positive business impact for your company as well as being a sustainable element that's going to help you be something that's looked at by the community as uplifting the community and not something that's taking away from the community. Makes sense. So if we fast forward, say, 5 to 10 years, what do you think sustainable venues will look like? I mean, what feels innovative today but you think eventually just becomes the standard expectation? Expectation? Yeah, I think compostables, like you were talking about, compostable polymer development, I think is something that's going to be integrated into a lot of sustainability programs and stadiums across the country. I think looking at how we utilize energy and how energy is implemented into these larger spaces, I think is gonna be something that's gonna be looked at pretty heavily. And you're gonna see a lot of growth within that space around direct solar and direct energy and different elements around that. I think you're gonna see a a lot of sustainability processes implemented across different sustainable buildings. So finding people that are sustainability-minded, not just for a sustainability department, but people that are entering the workforce, that this is an important factor when they're looking at job opportunities. We go to all of the colleges in the area. So Georgia Tech, Georgia Southern, Kennesaw State, Georgia State, University of Georgia. We travel to those spaces and we talk with those sustainability certificate certificate people or people in different majors that aren't necessarily around sustainability. So UGA has a sustainability certificate class that myself or, or Don Brown will go to and then speak to that class. And those are all people that are not entering a sustainability field. They're people that are interested in sustainability and they want this as an add-on to their major. So it's people that are entering accounting, marketing, communications, and those are people that want to find a company in a space that revolves around those values and those ideas. And they're implementing them into their space. So understanding that there is a culture in the youth that is looking at this as the next element and developing what can be done in these corporate spaces, and they are attaching themselves to the spaces that are most in line with those values. So making sure that we as businesses are aligning with what the next workforce is going to be coming into and, and their hopes and expectations for what a corporate environment looks like. We want to stay in line with that and we want to make sure that those people come to us as we're kind of recruiting talent. I mean, to be honest, like, you're always looking for the best people to come into your spaces to make this 2 million square feet as productive and efficient as possible. These elements are things that people are looking at when they're coming into the workforce and they're coming into these spaces. Well, it's definitely inspiring. It's something where it is a microcosm. I look at it and I see it as a vision of what the future could and hopefully will look like. So it's pretty inspiring. So this is like a question that we usually ask most people that come on our podcast, which is, when you think about the future of packaging and sustainability system, what is one thing that really gives you hope? One thing that I think really gives me hope with the future of packaging and sustainability is seeing these companies that are working towards just all natural fiber. Fibers for their packaging and seeing the developments in there. You're seeing different companies associate themselves with just recycling fiber and then utilizing that fiber for packaging and self-sustaining an entire company around just recycling paper fibers or mostly around recycling paper fibers. That's really encouraging to me. And then seeing those businesses thrive and grow just shows that that space is going to become even more important and it's going to just have more opportunities for other companies to come in in and replicate that business model. So seeing that and then also kind of seeing the dissolution of Styrofoam in packaging over the past 6, 7 years since I've been in the stadium, the amount of times that we would take Styrofoam runs to CHaRM, the Center for Hard-to-Recycle Materials, that has a densifier for that Styrofoam to recycle it. We were going once, twice a week in the height of our busy season and taking truckloads and truckloads of Styrofoam there because that was what was being shipped. Now we're taking 1 to 2 truckloads of that, maybe a month over there. We're seeing a lot more natural fibers and paper fibers utilized for that packaging and other unique ways to find to insulate that packaging or to make it protective other than using packing peanuts, Styrofoam, and different things like that. So the innovation is there. We're seeing it being implemented, and I'm just encouraged that one day we'll just be completely Styrofoam-free in the stadium. Yeah, that's something to look forward to. And I appreciate your coming onto the show. And thank you very much. Appreciate the partnership. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Chris, you know, one thing that really stood out to me while listening back to the conversation, beyond the FOMO from not being able to go, was how intentional the entire system was. Yeah, and honestly, that's what you feel when you walk through the stadium too. None of it feels disconnected. You know, it wasn't really about like swapping materials or adding compost bins, which are important and I think great first steps, but it was about designing operations, packaging systems, infrastructure, and even like how they encourage guest behavior to all work together as a cohesive system. Yeah, and I think that was the biggest takeaway for me too. So sustainable packaging by itself isn't really enough. It's the surrounding systems that matter— the procurement, the recovery infrastructure, education, operational alignment. Yeah, I think that's what makes this such an interesting case study that goes beyond not just sports venues. They do more than sports, but, you know, there's lessons here for packaging, retail, hospitality, logistics— really any industry that's trying to build more circular systems. I think that somebody from those industries trying to build something has something to learn from Andrew and what the team has been doing. Yeah, exactly. And these type of closed-loop systems like an amphitheater or a stadium— and Mercedes-Benz, I think, is kind of the poster child of this— really functions like a living lab for operational sustainability at scale. Absolutely. So huge thank you to Andrew and his team for sharing this strategy and the reality behind building one of the world's leading zero-waste Buenos días. And to everyone listening, if you enjoyed the episode, please follow the podcast, leave us a 5-star rating, and share it with somebody working in packaging operations or sustainability, or even just a sports fan that likes to hear what's going on from a sustainability perspective. For more conversations, case studies, and resources, visit thesustainabledesignlab.com. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.