How Burton Snowboards Is Rethinking Packaging From the Inside Out with Mitch Rovito

Welcome back to the Sustainable Design Lab podcast. I'm Brady Vander Dusen, and I'm Chris Bradley. One of the things we talk a lot about in sustainability and sustainable packaging is the packaging that consumers see— the box, the mailer, the shelf presence. But there is a whole hidden layer of packaging waste that happens behind the scenes that most people never think about, and I think this is especially true in apparel and retail. Millions and millions of temporary plastic bags whose entire purpose is really just surviving one shipment before they're thrown away. And today's guest is a part of a team that decided to challenge that system. We're joined by a friend of the lab, Mitch Rovito from Burton Snowboards. We're big fans. Burton has been pushing sustainability forward for many years, not just through materials and products, but through circularity, repair programs, reuse, and more recently, rethinking the role that packaging plays across their business. You know, one of the things I appreciate most about Burton's approach is that they're willing to talk honestly about the trade-offs. They're so transparent. Their paper packaging sometimes wrinkles, it maybe tears sometimes. It's intentionally imperfect because it's designed for the amount of life that it actually needs. And in this conversation, we really explore what happens when a company stops asking, "How do we make packaging look more premium?" and starts asking a better question, "What actually makes sense for the system?" So with that, Mitch, welcome to the show. It's, uh, great to talk with you, Mitch, as always. Burton has always felt like a brand that I would say thinks beyond just the product itself. So before we get into packaging specifically, can you talk a little bit about how sustainability became embedded into Burton's culture and ethos over the years? I can do my best, uh, as the packaging guy who, you know, I've been with Burton for about 5 years now and, uh, the sustainability story started long before I joined the company. So there's more information on Burton's website if any of your listeners are interested in like reading the entire detail. But I am a very curious mind, so I have gone and asked a lot of questions about this 'cause, uh, it's close to my heart. And so I, I probably know more than the average Burton employee who started well after this. I know in like 2011, 2012 timeframe, there was someone by the name of Allie Kinney who had been at Burton for a really long time, was really passionate about sustainability and really kind of pitched this idea to Donna and Jake, the founders and owners of the company, that like, this is the direction that the company should really be in. And Jake and Donna being family-owned company leaders and being passionate about the planet that they play on. They were really interested in this and invested in this. And at that time it really started this idea of what is a sustainability commitment and a sustainability story or program look like. And so I wanna say in like 2014 or 2015, there was like partnership with Protect Our Winters, which I'm, I'm sure a lot of your listeners are familiar with the climate advocacy group. And then in the maybe like 2018, 2019 timeframe, Burton became a B Corp. And that really kind of like solidified the framework around sustainability. But to the heart of your question, which is like the cultural impact, I think that's the big thing. It's like we are a company that we make toys and accessories for toys for people. It's snowboarding. But as anyone who participates in snow sports or any outdoor activities, you know that it's more than that. Like, this is a device that connects you to the planet. It gets you outside and experiencing nature and experiencing the environment and experiencing community and connection and stories and adventure. And it like, it goes from this device to really this key to unlock this whole world for you. And our entire industry, our entire company exists because of people who are passionate to be outside and in the environment and snowy environments. And with global warming and climate change, the actual reality of how that is impacting our sport is real and it's tangible. You see less and less snowmaking days every year. You see volatile weather patterns and, uh, snowpack years and it keeps people aware of that, and that's really embedded in the culture because we care so much about our industry. I love that. I think that sustainability, when done right, is like a cultural piece that every employee, no matter if they work in sustainable packaging or not, they feel it, they like embody it, they become champions and advocates for it. So I, I love to hear that. One thing that I wanted to dive a little bit into was Burton does a lot of packaging. I think most companies do a lot of different kinds of packaging. There's primary, secondary, tertiary. We talk a lot about that, but I wanna talk about temporary packaging used during distribution specifically, because I think that that's a piece that gets often overlooked, but I think is crucial and there's a huge opportunity to make it sustainable if you play the right levers. So what made your team decide that polybags specifically within distribution were worth rethinking? So a polybag can take your snowboard outerwear. Let's say you bought a jacket. And your jacket comes in a poly bag that comes to you for that season of snowboarding. Sure, you can use that jacket for many years, but you see this poly bag go, I mean, it, it lives in the world for shorter than a single snowboard season to get your product to you. And then it's literally in the world for the rest of your life. Like, sure, it can be recycled and repelletized, but there's this, this like visual that hits really hard for me and for the people who really worked on our sustainability commitments and our goals is like, when you actually look at it that simply, like, it's kind of insane. There's a piece of plastic that gets your product from point A to point B, and then it's just there forever. And so it was this place that millions of units are really impactful. You see so much plastic out there. And one of our sustainability goals and commitments is to exit our use of single-use plastic packaging. So poly bags are just the one that consumers are aware of that they see. If you've watched any videos of professional surfers, you're literally like watching them surf in waves of plastic in the ocean. And Cody Townsend, who is a professional skier, a couple years ago did this exercise where he went and took core samples high, high up in the mountains of snow and came back and did studies and found that there's literally microplastics in the snowpack in the highest peaks of the world. Um, and so the impact to human health around microplastics was like a really big driver for this. And so the goal wasn't how do we improve our packaging? The goal was like, this breaks our heart and like, we're a part of this problem as a producer and a brand. The consumers can only demand so much by voting with their feet and buying things in a certain way and advocating for legislation. But like, as a brand, this is a place for us to step in and say, how can we think about doing it differently? How can we— the way we innovate snowboards and we change core materials and we change shapes and profiles, like, can't we do the the same with packaging. And so the poly bags were really like an easy target because they're just so vast and they're just so obviously a problem. Yeah, I think just thinking about all the poly bags that we come into contact with, and I know why our customers keep wanting to use it, and it's been inspiring that you guys are really looking to drive it out. So there's some technical considerations too, right? So when you're shipping apparel globally, there's real performance requirements around moisture protection, durability, retail handling. What are some of the biggest technical challenges in really moving towards paper-based alternatives when you're eliminating things like polybags? Great question. And probably the question that everyone in, in my position as a package engineer at a brand is up against is that there is no silver bullet. There is no solution that is the highest performance at the most reasonable or lowest cost that also minimally impacts the planet. In some situations there is a solution that does that, which is amazing for these simple drop-in solutions. And so there are technical limitations we need to work around, but I think the biggest question actually informs how we approach that. And that biggest question is actually something that I've seen in— it's a slogan I've seen in protests and climate advocacy, which is, if not now, then when? And if not me, then who? And so when you actually think about making change, like if it's driven from a place of there is a problem that we define the problem of human health and planet health around plastic pollution, microplastics. We have to design out of this. So what are, what's the environment we're designing in? And so to your specific comments there around the performance needs, the industry needs, the actual value chain demands or needs, like it's a pretty high ask to ask a piece of paper to move through an entire global economy of distribution and omnichannel. So it's going through super manual through fully automated distribution systems and in direct-to-consumer and large wholesale and rental environments. And they all have different asks and different needs. And so really, like, this was a huge exercise of fully assessing the entire value chain, something that we really didn't do from that lens before. We know where our product moves through, we know what that looks like, but to actually think from the perspective of a bag around a piece of apparel is like a different situation or a different story. And so really tracking down some of the highest demands and some of the areas where we have created an industry or an expectation from what has existed, and it's like, can we just redefine that? And so that was really the big question. It was like, what are the things we need to design for versus the things we can actually partner with our markets to help change? And so water resistance or wet strength is a big one as we sell products to mostly snow sports enthusiasts. And the products are being delivered in climates that are snowy or wet or rainy, and it's gonna need to handle getting to the consumer that way. But also to the comment about polybags bringing your apparel to you and then living in the environment forever is like, well, if our goal is not for the packaging to live forever, it's to get your product to you safely. Let's actually really hone in on defining where that limit is. At what point can packaging fail, but the product still gets to you as expected with no problems and then backing that as a brand with our, you know, warranty program or anything like that. But making sure that we're optimized in how we're designing. We're not just saying pass every single test possible with the highest safety margins. Let's like actually like really, really get specific. Not over-engineering it for meeting it where the product's at. I love that. One thing I've loved that Burton has done is this campaign around like, it's just paper, how it reframes the expectations of what packaging should look like or should do, kind of like what you were saying. And you know, you openly acknowledge wrinkles and tears and imperfections within the packaging. How did that conversation go internally? Was there like a debate around whether consumers would accept that? Were you nervous about consumer feedback on what that is? It is different than the rest of the industry, or maybe not now, but it was. So can you share a little bit about how that went? I feel like it's a complicated conversation because there's a couple factors at play. One is making sure that we care a lot about our consumers. We're building product to meet their needs. That's the goal— to help them snowboard, help them get out and enjoy the environment. And so if we're making decisions and telling them what to do, it's not really the dynamic that we're working on. We're partners with our consumers. Me personally and everyone that I work with at Burton, we obsess over the rider. We are snowboarders. We are snow sports enthusiasts. We're not just a big company who's building product and sending it to a consumer. We also use this stuff. And so making sure that we're not delivering something that's a few degrees off base is really important. But also, we are a leader in the industry. Burn has been around, we're celebrating 50 years next year as, as a company. We're still privately held, still one shareholder, Donna Carpenter, who co-founded the company with her late husband Jake. It's still snowboarder rider-led and rider-driven, and we still are a leader, and we still take it very seriously that even if the consumers might not be ready for a a specific solution, like changing from a poly bag to a paper bag, it is also our responsibility and our duty to help move the industry in the right direction. There's an ownership in action that we take, which is how do we make the right decisions for the consumers and not tell them what to expect, but help guide them. And that's where that slogan came from. It's, we don't need to explain to our consumers every little detail. Actually, we put a lot of pressure and responsibility on the consumers around material management. We send them a lot of stuff in a really confusing way to recycle or compost or throw out. And every MRF has a different capability. And everywhere, I mean, we sell in 40+ countries across the globe. Every country, not only does like my town here in Vermont have a different material sorting program than the next county over, but us versus what's happening in France, or it's so disparate and disconnected. And I know there's a ton of work around harmonization of recycling and improving standards, but we're still in this state where it's a web. And so like we get to, and we should take some of that responsibility. And EPR is really like starting to do that from a regulatory standpoint. But fortunately being privately held, like there's a, a bit of a superpower to be able to just do something. It doesn't matter what the shareholders think. The one shareholder, the owner of the company, if she cares about this, it's like, let's go do things that's right and let's take risks. And you'll see that in some of our messaging too, which is we do a lot of piloting, we do a lot of testing. And if there was a silver bullet, if there was a solution that solved it all, I don't I don't think the messaging would need to be so specific, but we get to try and we're like, hey, maybe instead of considering here's the pros and cons list of this material, which a lot of brands have done, and I've written copy for our packaging to start there and we kind of get to the end, we're like, wow, this is really hard to follow. Let's pivot. Let's keep it fun and playful, which is what our brand is all about and what snowboarding is all about. And let's just be a little unserious and say it's just paper. If you can recycle it, amazing. Keep that circular, bring that back into the economy. If you don't have the capability or or the access to recycling. It's a natural material that is non-toxic and non-problematic in the environment. And if you're someone who just chooses to throw it out or it leaks from the recovery system, it's not something that we need to worry about causing microplastic pollution in the snowpack in our tallest peaks of the world. Packaging is entering a new era where sustainability is tied directly to cost, compliance, and design decisions. So we pulled together our 2026 Packaging Trends Report. It's not just trends, it's what we're actually seeing across the industry. Fiber expansion, natural polymers, refill systems, and a real shift towards more accountable, data-driven packaging. If you're trying to stay ahead of where things are going, it's a must-read. Download it for free at sustainabledesignlab.com or check the link in the show notes. I do love the playfulness in the way that you you market and you kind of call attention to your plastics. I have up on my wall— I've had it for 2 years— one of the Vella bags that you have that says like, "F single-use plastics," essentially. It really makes you kind of stop and look at it and say, "Oh, now I understand. There's some deliberateness now about why you're doing it," instead of just making a change and not really telling the consumer. That's one thing that I've really kind of admired, that Burton is really willing to publicly talk about these types of trade-offs instead of pretending that there is a perfect solution. So how How important is transparency when communicating these kind of sustainability progress? I love that question and I love the nod to that art version that we did for our initial launch of our Vela Bags. Burton has permission to be fun and playful like that. We also have permission to be a little provocative. That's just the brand's loyal following in the early days in the '80s, '90s was so countercultural. There's a permission there. And again, being privately held and being owned by someone who wants to see that kind of stuff because that's who we are, that's who she is. It really opens the lens for us to be able to speak about those things. And that messaging, that was an effort to be transparent. It started with an effort to essentially be like, let's be provocative. If someone gets really upset by that messaging, maybe they don't think about sustainability. And getting upset by that messaging is just an opportunity to call to action. Discomfort is where we start to make change. And that was something that was like, yeah, maybe this is— someone's like, yeah, let's out of single-use plastic. Someone else could be upset, but they're both talking about this single-use plastics problem and whatever gets us started. And so transparency is really important because there isn't a solution that solves it all. Me personally, if I wanted someone to know, this is what we think about it, is we just want you to know that we're trying new things. If there was a solution that made sense for everyone, we would be doing that. And anywhere we're not doing that, Sure, we have glassine bags in the world. We've been doing that for a couple seasons, replacing our single-use plastic bags. Single-use plastic has a place in the world of packaging. It is such an important material. It's not all bad. I was at a sustainability conference one time and there were a lot of people in this sustainability space in the room with people in the packaging space. And the sustainability people were like, oh, we've never heard anyone say anything positive about plastic. It's just always this bad thing. And the packaging space is— plastic has always been this lightweight material that's minimally resource intensive. And in the packaging space, it serves such a purpose. And it was this really interesting dichotomy or this contrast to be like, oh yeah, we want the same thing, but our worlds are consumed by two different parts of this big spectrum. Continuing to work together and have these neutral convening moments is really, really cool and really important. And yeah, the transparency piece is the more we help educate— Burton is not the voice that should be educating consumers on the technical or more sustainable benefits of paper versus plastic. We're not the pros in that. But we are a brand who is— has science-based targets, has a sustainability team that is constantly asking questions about this and consulting people like the two of you, our supply network, our partners, our 3PLs. We're talking with them to say like, what are the new materials? What are the impacts of these materials? And we're just continuing to try to innovate and progress. And like, that's at the core of the culture of Burton, that is, if there's anything that Jake Burton Carpenter's legacy carries on within this company, it's this tenacious curiosity to improve things. It's like, how can we make this better? That's why we exist as a company. It was Jake taking a piece of wood that people were sliding down golf courses on, and he just had the spark and was, this could be something cooler and something more fun to be on, something more innovative. And he just started tinkering, and now it's a multimillion-dollar global sport with millions of participants. Patents every year. And that's kind of crazy to think about that progression all from just someone being like, I think this thing I'm holding could be better. And if we don't do that with our packaging materials, even if it's not about sustainability, even if it's just about like, can this thing be better for the rider? Can this thing be better for the people who are impacted by this? And then helping to tell the consumer that like consumers care about that more than they care about, oh, you're 100% free of single-use plastic. Sure, that might be a cool stat to someone. We're not, we're still a ways away from But to a consumer to hear, oh, there are people who are tenaciously trying to figure out a better way to use new materials and new supply chains, less material to minimize impact, but still deliver a product to me in top quality condition and at a lower price that allows me to get into the sport. Like, that's a bit more compelling. For our packaging engineers, for our designers who are listening to this, I want to go back to— we talked a little bit about the operational challenge of really reevaluating how Burton does sustainable packaging. Moving away from plastics or single-use plastics like you talked about, you said that that was a monumental challenge, and I'm sure it was, like, to see the whole system holistically and design for that. For our friends in packaging engineering and design, what advice would you give them on, like, where to start in a project like that? I'm not sure that I'm the best person to do that because I'm so grateful of the company and the world I get to operate in, where not only permission, there's encouragement and someone pouring fuel in the tank to go do this kind of work. A big part of that is me as an individual and, and my desire and curiosity to do this. But also, yeah, costs are a big constraint for us. Quality and quality assurance is a big constraint for us, but we're encouraged to go and try new things. And so there was this moment that I think describes why this was a little, I wouldn't say easier, but this dynamic is we were doing a— cost analysis and impact analysis around glassine bags at one of our 3PLs. And our operations person saw the impact to the price and it was more impactful to do some of our rework with getting glassine bags in there. And we, we weren't really coming up with the clear business justification that wasn't connected to brand consistency and the right materials instead of having a mix of poly bags. And their response was, was, you know what, this is just the right thing to do. We're going to figure it out. Let's go. And to like see an email signed off, let's go, period. It was like, oh yeah, if there's someone who just sees the vision, that can make a huge difference. And even working with our 3PLs, it wasn't about pitching, well, here's how we can optimize this within your facility to make it less impactful for you. We actually found that it was a better conversation to cast the vision of the why. Here's what we're doing. Here is why we think this is aligned with our goals. And also your goals. And we even talk to our wholesale accounts like Amazon and Dick's Sporting Goods who have reduction of single-use plastic goals, is to start to connect to this bigger picture, tell the story, find partnership to say we're aligned in what we're doing. And actually, like, despite the impact, if we get our heads together and think creatively, this can be a non-impactful lift in terms of cost and labor hours, and it can get us closer towards our goals of minimizing our reduction to the planet. I think actually you're the perfect person to give advice for it. It might be everyone's like goal, you know, their hopeful situation, their dream. Yeah, but when they have to go and, you know, to advocate up the chain where there isn't a sustainability program, you know, that's then— and I appreciate that, um, and you know, that's where I see when I go to events like Sea Change sessions here in Vermont, which is a neutral convening of a lot of people in the packaging space, which is a really cool event to like talk with people who are part of larger companies that have way more structure and way more specific goals around this. We have structure and goals around this, but it's more here is the path forward. They have, well, here's why we can't do that. To see them constantly kind of hitting these ceilings of like, we just want appetite or interest to explore this. And, and that's where I think my experience, while it's certainly not easy to make these big transitions. We had to work on so much and we had to accept so many impacts that were less efficient for the sake of the formula, which is what is the balanced business decision that supports all of our goals. But like the compelling story or the, maybe the call to action or the challenge to other people who are in this situation is to like think, well, we, we say think sideways since I was gonna say think outside of the box, but we say think sideways at Burden because we're riding sideways on a board. But like, if you think from a different perspective, and in this instance, it's how do you cast vision? How do you storytell? How do you connect to the humanity instead of focus on the datasets? That's a really important part of forward progress around packaging materials and innovation is if you're not making progress there, think sideways and maybe try it a different way. And I think that you and the team at Burton have done that better than most. It's really inspiring, I think, to see the progress that you've made over the time that we've been kind of working together. So when you think about the future of packaging, what is one thing that really gives you hope? This work around harmonization of standards. I think EPR is really a big catalyst for this when brands or producers are having to come up with 4 to 12 different datasets for the same data in order to report to each of the EPR states or countries or entities that are asking for the same thing, which is like, how much packaging are you putting into our state or country lines? And how much of it do we need to deal with in what ways? Um, and so to see these regional or kind of disparate, um, standards, and I understand why they're different. It's not a lack of communication. It's what we talked about earlier is like California's recycling, their material recovery protocol is different from Minnesota and they need things labeled in a different way. But to see these legislators and brands and consumers and retailers and packaging suppliers getting together and talking about it from a, how do we solve this to make it better for everyone? It's not a, like, we're lobbying for our specific needs. It's literally just all of these people cross-industry coming together and saying, there's a better way that we can do this that makes it more efficient for all of us, with the end goal of more transparency around our materials, incentivizing more sustainable materials, defining sustainable materials materials by how they really impact the planet, not on recycling logos or consumer perception, but like really improving our technical metabolism of how to keep these things circular. That's really inspiring to me. And I do think that's the future of sustainable packaging. It's not some, I mean, there's really cool stuff happening. There's the seaweed in thin film plastic and mycelium growing packaging and these things that are fully compostable, made from natural materials and function really well. And, and you know, there's really cool innovation. Solutions. But I think the thing that's most exciting is the fact that the humans are getting together, aligning on vision, and that's becoming a driving force. And to see the next layer of that, of right now, a lot of retailers, we don't see a ton of retailers in those rooms. And we think about the mom-and-pop board shop or the retail store at the resort where someone's making their impulse buy for a pair of goggles because they forgot theirs at home and they traveled halfway across the world, or theirs broke and they're in desperate need. For those spaces to be involved in these conversations, to be aligned, one, to advocate for themselves so that they're not just the end of the chain of all of us suppliers and brands making decisions. And then the retailers are like, man, all of this is designed with materials that might crack, scuff, break by the time they get to us. And we've relied on using the packaging to display things on shelf and we're not a premium retailer. We don't have metal racking and beautiful displays and where some of our stores do and others don't. It's like to see them getting in the room and then to see really curious consumers in the age of information where EPR is known by consumers way more than any other packaging-related regulations in the past through just the mass distribution of information, to start seeing kind of the outskirts of that spectrum, being able to be at the table and advocating and learning from the other people upstream, that's pretty cool. I went into a local snowboard shop last summer and was just talking with a fresh seasonal employee, must have been 16 years old. And I told them that I worked for Burton and did a lot of the packaging and was, do you have any questions that you're seeing on our stuff or in the industry or whatever? And he grabbed a pair of skis and he was like, why is everyone putting QR codes on things? He's like, no one scans these. They're like dropping information. And then had him scan the QR code and it pulled up some foundation of digital product passport in Europe. And some of your consumers might be be, or your listeners might be aware of DPP and, and the impact to that. And to help educate that worker to be like, actually, this is like future-proofing for these new global regulations around sustainability, waste management, and access to information for better consumer protection and decision-making. And I watched his face change from, this is annoying to, oh, that's crazy. I had no idea. This is now actually something I can talk to my consumers about to say, hey, this brand brand cares enough about being compliant with regulations that this is a reason to buy from this brand because they're actually like leading the charge here. And to start to see all those people kind of come together with understanding and harmonization, that's inspiring to me. Well, we're in the throes of California reporting right now, so the harmonization sounds idyllic. Well, thank you so much for your time. I think that this is an inspiring conversation. I'm ready to like go hit the slopes or something. Yeah, and think sideways. So fun to chat with you, and, um, it's, you know, it's so awesome to be able to have partners like Veritiv and, and other packaging suppliers who are on the front lines of material innovation. And anytime there's a new development or another brand doing something really, really cool, it's— we're all kind of sharing our notebooks, and we all live on the same planet. So sustainable innovation is really not a zero-sum game.. And so by kind of sharing these solutions, and I've done a ton of R&D on things, we've worked with your team in the lab to try to innovate on some stuff. Like even if we don't go to market with it, if another brand could come in and take it from there and innovate a little further and then reimagine it in that light, that's pretty awesome. We've done that with Siemens Paper and some of the Vela solutions where we worked with them on these coatings and these different technologies that can play into automated equipment, and it just isn't the the right time, isn't the right fit for us and the impact to our supply chain or value chain and our consumers. But we're seeing other industries, the electronics industries and the entertainment industries taking this technology, tweaking it and activating it and getting out of tons of single-use plastic. And so there's something really cool about that shared vision and that like committed partnership to just getting out of problematic materials and innovating together. So I really appreciate both of you and all of your teams. Thank you. You know, I think what I'll keep thinking about after this conversation is about how many sustainability opportunities are hiding in plain sight. The things past that first layer of packaging that we're always thinking about. Bernd didn't really reinvent snowboarding here. They maybe invented it, but they didn't reinvent it. They rethought something that most brands had probably accepted as untouchable for years. Yeah, and I think there's actually a bigger lesson in that. Some of the most impactful sustainability work isn't really flashy. It's operational. We talked a little bit about kind of their distribution packaging and things that consumers actually never see, and it's invisible sometimes. But when you scale that across global systems and supply chains, the impact becomes very real. And I really appreciated the honesty around the imperfection of packaging. We spend so much time trying to make sustainable solutions perform exactly like the systems that they're replacing, but maybe part of the progress is getting more comfortable with things looking just a little bit different. Yeah, I think that's a great point, Brody. Sustainability is really forcing all of us— brands, designers, consumers— to rethink what we actually need packaging to do. And it's not just about again, replacing what was there before, but it's kind of leaning into what is truly new, novel, and sustainable. Absolutely. So big thanks to Mitch and Burton for all the work that they're doing, um, and for joining us today and sharing their perspective. And if you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe to the Sustainable Design Lab podcast, share it with a colleague or somebody in packaging or the retail world, and we'll see you next time.