Succession: a personal story

Speaker A: The major thing I did learn about it was being respectful of decisions that they made. Originally. I think I learned quite quickly. I, uh, can't remember what it was about, but we were having a conversation about something and I'd said something like, oh, I think I don't think we should do that anymore, quite flippantly. And I could kind of feel the mood change slightly. And I realized that Angie and Keith had made that decision. At the time, it was my decision. But to them, that must have seemed like I was attacking the fact that they made the decision and it was the wrong decision. But that wasn't what I was saying. I was just saying we've moved now, you know, we're a bit bigger. We need to do this instead.

Speaker B: You are listening to the Exploring Family Business podcast, brought to you by Mazars. I'm your host, Natalie Wright, head of family business at Mazars uk. And having worked extensively with family businesses for a number of years, I'm keen to support this valuable sector of our society. At Mazars, we believe there is nothing more personal than a family business. Every family and every business are unique. So we look forward to sharing knowledge, insights and practical tips for those navigating the unique issues that arise from being in business with family. Now, on with this week's show. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Exploring Family Business podcast. With Mazars, taking over the family business, whether that's the ownership, the management or both, brings with it many responsibilities. That shift in decision making and autonomy can affect the dynamics of the business and the family. So for the families who have transitioned successfully, we're really interested to know what made the difference. How difficult is it to balance personal ambitions whilst respecting and protecting a legacy? And how are the next gen driving their new ideas into action? Back in 2002, Angela Morris, the founder of the Wool Packaging Company, came up with an innovative idea, an idea that saw the creation of the first wool Cool product. And by 2008, she had built a business around this idea. Roll forward to February 2014 and Angela's youngest daughter, Josie, joined the business as Sales and Marketing manager and quickly progressed to managing director in 2016. The business put social and environmental responsibility at the core of what it does. And in 2020, it demonstrated that its actions match its values by becoming a registered B Corp, joining 700 other businesses in the UK, many of which are family owned. In this episode of the Exploring Family Business podcast, we're delighted to be joined by Josie Morris MBE, the Managing Director, uh, and second generation of Woolcool an award winning business that now supplies products to some of the most recognised brands around the globe. Josie and I will be talking through her own personal journey of succession. How she made the decision to join the family firm, her challenges as she balanced and no doubt continues to balance personal and professional decision making and uh, most importantly how her family have managed that transition whilst maintaining strong personal relationships throughout the process. Joseph, thank you for joining us today.

Speaker A: Hello. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited about this conversation.

Speaker B: Brilliant. Looking forward to going through everything and uh, hearing about your journey. So I did give a very brief history of the business there and the road to where you are today. I'm sure in some ways it's gone in the blink of an eye, but in others possibly always feels like you've been at uh, wool. Cool. And I will include a link to the company's website in there to show that journey of progression that you've had over the last 20 years. But today I'd really like to focus on your journey specifically because we'd like to get a better understanding of the experience and transition from now gen to next gen. So could we start first of all by talking about your life before joining the family business?

Speaker A: Yeah, that seems so long ago now. Yeah, definitely, I think so. I mean, uh, I obviously went to school. That was actually where we are based now is where near where I went to school. And then I kind of took a year off before I went to university as uh, sometimes, you know, I didn't really feel ready for university I think at that point. And then I kind of through university I got a job because I'm a keen sports player, don't play as much as I want to. Now as I've got older and grown up, I've actually grown up and I've got a real job. Um, so. But I played a lot of sports at uni and luckily through that I actually ended up getting a job coming out of university, which is a great position to be in. And so yeah, my life, my life before Wall Call was probably just kind of deciding what I wanted from life really. I guess I never really knew what I wanted to do when I was younger. Uh, funny enough, I always thought my mum built up such a, uh, good business in her packaging consultancy because that's what she was doing previously to Walkall, which is where the idea came from. I always felt it'd be a shame if all that hard work went to waste. But obviously as a consultancy she's got expertise in, that's a service, um, so what was great about when she created Woolcool is I could see myself being involved, but I definitely wasn't ready when I came out of university and I wanted to make sure that I was doing it for me and not for her. That was the thing. So I went off on my own merry way and went into sportswear, which is completely different to packaging, but has some similarities, like, anything. And that was actually a family business I was in before I moved to, uh, Woolcool. So, yeah, it's been. To look back, you're saying about time flying. The last two years have been for everyone. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't think 2020 or 2021 actually happened. I mean, I'm still in 2019 in my head. I don't know about you.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think we can all agree with that, to be honest. It's really interesting what you said there about that you made that decision as well, that you didn't feel ready. Because I think we often hear, and I'm interested to get your take on this, that quite often there's a pressure or an expectation to join the family business. But. So I'm interested, first of all to know if you felt there was that expectation in any way. And also then you following your passion, um, with sport, what brought you back to the family business?

Speaker A: I think probably from a. I think the difficulty is really is knowing exactly what you're saying, really is knowing why you're joining the business. So, um, I actually. I was really lucky because a friend of mine said to me, actually, when I was making decision between staying at the sportswear company I was working at and progressing there, I had a job offer on the table or moving across the family business, which would have been, you know, it was a bit of a step back, actually, from the role I'd been offered to move into the family business. Someone said to me, are you doing it for yourself? Are you doing it for your mum? And I kind of. It took me probably a couple of weeks to kind of come to the conclusion of, why am I doing it? And actually, it was a really good question because it, uh, actually made me think about, am I doing this for the right reasons? Am I doing it because I feel I have to or do I want to? And actually, my mum even said to me, you know, I don't want you to come in just because of me. Which was nice, you know, she didn't put pressure on. And I actually asked her partner, Keith, to interview me to make sure I was right for the role, because my biggest fear was that I'd come into the business and I wouldn't have the skill set to take the business forward to where it needed to be. So I was worried it's going to flop. So I just wanted to make sure it was right, you know what I mean? Because it's not good for either party if it's not right. If it's not right for my mum, it's not going to be right for me and vice versa. So that was kind of how I made that decision. I can't tell you what made me go one way or the other, but I would say that the thing that attracted me away from sportswear really into this business was the opportunities I had to do my own thing and to almost. I like to test myself, so to almost see what skills that I had and if it failed, it failed. But to see what I can do as a person, what can I achieve. So, yeah, it's a funny one. Sport is my passion, but I guess in some ways I don't really want to be doing a job in my passion because it's my hobby.

Speaker B: Also, what skill sets do you think that you were able to gain then from going elsewhere, being outside the family business and I guess almost having a different perspective to be able to take that into the family business that you might not have otherwise had.

Speaker A: So I think the skills that I kind of could gain elsewhere that probably set me up for the family business really was probably seeing something outside the family business. So, you know, I think quite often in family business, the business becomes like a sibling to the family, um, and actually then it ends up being something that, um, the people in the family don't really get outside of. And for some reason, for some people, that's the right path to go straight into the family business. So this is the path for me, but I'm not saying it's the right or wrong path. I think I wanted to go and test myself outside and away from people that knew me already. And I think also the business I was in, interestingly, was a family business itself. And it was one that when it, as it grew, it actually got bought out. So it kind of. I kind of saw the progression from a small business to a medium business to a business that then got acquired. So I think that gave me a lot of insight into kind of progression of a business. And I learned a lot from the managing director in that business and the people I worked with of kind of what to do and what not to do, if that makes sense. I Think you can learn a lot before you then go and try that in your own business.

Speaker B: Sounds like a really valuable way as well to experience that without you having the personal connection that you do, obviously, in your own family business as well. It's a different kind of decision making, I imagine.

Speaker A: Um, yeah, and I think it probably teaches you, I think particularly that business. I think it taught me what I enjoyed doing. And I think also I think for me, and again, it's not the same for everyone. This is my experiences. I think if I'd gone straight into the family business, I think I'd be thinking, what else is that out there? But then actually, I can't say. If I had come into the straight away, you know, I think I still would have loved it. You know, I don't think it was a right or wrong m decision. I think it was just. It felt right at the time to go and try myself elsewhere. And also I was. I was living a bit further away from the business. And there was part of me that thought moving back to the area was a bit of failure because, you know, I always said, oh, I'll move away from the area. My friends went to London or elsewhere. And then when I moved back, I was like, no, I love the area, actually. Uh, there's loads of. I actually took for granted when I lived here the things that, uh, I can do in the area now that I didn't think about when I was younger.

Speaker B: So it sounds like you did that from a really informed decision point as well, from a personal perspective and a business perspective, which is really great to hear. But if we were thinking about challenges and barriers when you joined the family business, did you ever have that feeling coming into the business that you were being viewed as the boss's daughter? Did you feel any personal challenges from that perspective?

Speaker A: I think probably most of the pressure was on myself, I think. And again, it's. There's certain elements to family business that, uh, are true throughout all family businesses. But I think where we were, uh, as a business, as we were starting as a business, was actually that we were small enough for the people within the business to know each other. So at that point, I think when I joined, we had four or five team members, so I was joining quite a small team that we got to know each other. And I think sometimes where you've got a bigger family business, like say, for example, my nephew joined now, uh, he's a bit young to join now, so I'm not advocating having a child in the business yet. But, you know, I Think if he was to join now, I think he would have more struggle convincing everyone he isn't just joining because he's the nephew. I think I was quite lucky in the sense that those four or five people I was working with saw me for me and not for being the daughter. There might be some people who thought that, uh, but I didn't get that impression or I ignored it. One of the two, um, the people working originally were really supportive and really welcoming. And I have to say there was particularly a couple people who showed so much respect. And I was young and I probably was. Was a bit of an upstart and probably had loads of crazy ideas, but they respected and they were very welcoming and kind of nurturing that which I was really lucky. Lucky to have around me.

Speaker B: That's great to hear. And actually probably ties back to kind of the culture that was built in the business as well, that actually supportive of each other. I understand that you've got siblings, some of which are in the business, some not. So your sister Jessica, she's the finance director. I Right in saying that.

Speaker A: Yes, indeed, yes, yes.

Speaker B: Obviously very different roles that you've got, a managing director and a finance director. Uh, was that kind of a natural progression into those roles? Did you ever have any conflict about doing different roles between you? How did that work?

Speaker A: Yes, so we didn't have any. Any conflict. The only conflict we ever have is that she has. She jokes, she has a no media clause, so she stays out of the. Stays out of the photos and stuff like that. But it's just the difference in personalities. Jess is more. She's probably more spreadsheets. She's more figures, which is lucky because naturally that isn't my favorite thing. I prefer to be chatting, as you can probably hear. I prefer to be kind of out and about. I mean, Jess, don't get me wrong, she is actually a great. A great presenter. Uh, but she chooses more that financial role. And for me, naturally, I'm more of like the sales and marketing side of things. But I always say, actually, you know, being almost like the managing director, like figurehead, you have a certain image. But it's really. I would say Jess should take most of the credit for how the company's gone, because I don't think we'd be where we were without her in it. And I think that's testimony. I think we balance each other out, but she keeps us level, I think.

Speaker B: Uh, a joint effort, it sounds like there.

Speaker A: Yeah, I say 70% her, maybe.

Speaker B: What about other siblings then? Um, because it Must be difficult sometimes when you all get together if some of you are talking about the business in terms of kind of day to day trading side of it. But then also if you're mindful that there's a financial interest for the wider family, but not necessarily a professional one, how do you balance that together as a family?

Speaker A: I think it's become a bit of a lesson over time really. I think again, it's very different in each family depending on what your setup is. But I think with, you know, over the time my other sisters have shown interest, but not really shown that they've necessarily wanted to come into the business. They've both got very, you know, very good careers of their own and they also live further away from where the business is located. But I think the challenge really is making sure that you're respectful of each other when you are having conversations. So instead of sitting there with my mum and talking about the business in front of all my sisters, for example, you know, no one really wants to sit there and listen about a business that they don't know anything about, you know, so actually it's just being respectful of that and perhaps be mindful that they, it's not necessarily something they always want to hear about and not because they're not interested, but just because when it's almost like that thing of when you've got a private joke going on, you know, the people outside it don't really involve it. So um, yeah, but they, I think over the time we've got to a happy medium where we're all in positions within our life now that we're happy with and I, um, think understand the dynamics that we all have and I think it's always been pretty, pretty positive. But obviously along the way you kind of forge that as the business grows and as I say now, they're doing really well in their own respective careers. So I think they seem really happy, brilliant.

Speaker B: And it sounds like you've got a great balance there. It can't have been easy at times, but I'm sure if you're all working in the same direction, it sounds like something you've worked hard to achieve.

Speaker A: My dad would say that, uh, having four girls is a pretty big challenge. Yeah, it's just, you know, I think I feel sorry for him sometimes because he's obviously. Well, in some ways he got very well looked after, but in some ways, obviously four girls together. But we're all very different personalities. But I say we think we share pretty much the same values. I think what's been Good over the time, and particularly as we've got older, is we found our niches within our careers. So I do know of family, um, businesses where if you've got two types of personalities that are similar, that are vying for the same M position, that can be really challenging. And we've been, I'll say lucky. We've been very lucky that we haven't had that, that kind of head to head. Now whether when my nephew comes in, he'll be vying for my position or if he came in, who knows? But he'll be kicking me out, I'm sure.

Speaker B: Sounds like you've got a successor planned already.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, he doesn't know that yet, but maybe.

Speaker B: And if you were to cast your mind back then when you started to transition into that managing director and leadership role, was that a decision prompted by you, by your mum, did it just kind of naturally evolve? How did that work?

Speaker A: So I think it was kind of a case of if I came in and did okay at sales and marketing manager role, which I, you know, it's a whole team thing. It was a plan that I would progress to be maybe a director, so sales marketing director. And then potentially if again I've shown the skill set because I always said I don't want the role if I'm not going to suit it. It's pointless giving someone a role if it's not within their skill set because like I said at the beginning, it doesn't make anyone happy. It might be the family name, but actually there's a happiness in there. Like you live your life to do the things you want to do. If you're putting yourself in a position that you're not going to be very good at just because of the family name. For me, it's a bit of an alien concept, but yeah, so it was a bit of a natural progression really. But we moved warehouse, so we moved from just an office facility to having our own production facility. And when we moved, because at that point we were starting to get more like, more team members. Keith, uh, who's my partner, said to me, and also within the business, he said to me, actually, maybe now's the time to have that title because then people will start seeing you as that leader rather than, you know, you have that transition. Because they were starting to step away a little bit and I was starting to take a bit more control. So at that point then Jess obviously started to step up to finance director too. So it was almost like new gen coming in at, uh, a point where it was Like a good break in the story for us to do so.

Speaker B: Sounds like a good pivot point. And yeah, as you said, that kind of natural progression then, and that was 2016 then, when you stepped into that role. So did that happen very quickly with you, your mum and Keith stepping back, or has that been a gradual step change?

Speaker A: Probably. I mean, it's weird answer. Probably a mixture of both, really. I think probably the step change, I think they wanted me to get involved in the role quite quickly, but with their support and, um, I would say that probably within six to 12 months, I was probably making some decisions and kind of driving it forward along with Jess, you know, obviously together we kind of were a bit of yin and yang in the sense that we work well together to do that. But Angie and Keith were always in the background. Angie and me, my mum, m. They're always in the background to kind of support. And I think they were mindful of not stepping on our toes and again, going back to that look thing. Very lucky that they weren't looking to hold on to every element of the business. They were quite happy, I think, at that point, to trust us to get on with it. And I think they saw that if they tried to push back, that could be detrimental to the business. I think we all kind of agreed that it was important to support each other in it. But I think the major thing, uh, just to make a point, the major thing I did learn about it was being respectful of decisions that they made originally. I think I learned quite quickly. I can't remember what it was about, but we were having a conversation about something and I'd said something like, oh, I think I don't think we should do that anymore, quite flippantly. And I could kind of feel the mood change slightly. And I realized that, uh, Angie, um, and Keith had made that decision at the time, it was my decision. But to them, that must have seemed like I was attacking the fact that they made the decision and it was the wrong decision. But that wasn't what I was saying. I was just saying we've moved on now, you know, we're a bit bigger. We should need to do this instead. And so I think that was quite a turning point for me that now I try and approach any decisions that were changing they've made in the past, try to approach it a bit more respectfully and say, look, that's the right decision. You made that at the right time. Hindsight's a wonderful thing. It's got us to where we are today, but we just need to tweak that um, and move on to the next level. And that was quite a big, it's quite a big step because I think that kind of mentality can sometimes cause the biggest friction when you've got someone coming in kind of with a bit of arrogance. M saying I know what's right, but not being respectful of what's come before them. I think it can work both ways. I think I've been, you know, Angie and Keith have always been very respectful of me and Jess. So when it comes to us making decisions, they've been very supportive. So I think it has to work the other way as well.

Speaker B: Lou, I think you're right and certainly from what I've seen with a lot of family businesses, it's having that respect on a personal basis as well as on a professional business basis. So again, as you've said there put context to the decision making and why you might be changing things moving forward in a way that actually isn't saying that they've personally done something wrong. It's actually just things have changed, the environment's changed and actually this is how we need to take things forward. That sometimes really gets lost in translation.

Speaker A: Everyone does it differently. But I kind of got to the point where I would say to my mum, I'm talking to you as your daughter or I'm talking to you as md. So it was quite weird and I think over the time my mentality wise and emotion wise at work is very different and sometimes it crosses over but very different to when at home. So sometimes I'll have to say to my mum, I don't know, less so now because they've stepped away a bit more. But particularly in the early days, I'm going to say to this to you as md, please don't. You know, this isn't your daughter speaking now, but that sounds like it wasn't really anything that harsh. That makes it sound really dramatic. It was probably just saying that we need to change the tea or something. But, you know, I think it's quite an emotional thing. You know, if I'm completely honest, I think I came in. I have a very good relationship with my mum but I think there's definitely an adjustment in your relationship when you first join that goes a bit. It. It's finding that balance between being the baby of the family and being talking to my mum quite a lot about my life to not having a chat at work about my life because my mum's here. Do you know what I mean? It's quite a weird thing and then that can feel quite cold. If I say to mum, M, you know, how are you? And she sees I'm a bit stressed for her, she switches on and goes, oh, are you okay? And I'm like, yeah, I'm fine. But that sounds quite harsh, doesn't it?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: I've learned a lot of lessons through that time and ways to manage that and ways to shut out certain feelings or ways to manage situations so you don't cause that feud between you. Because I think communication is the biggest way to break down those barriers rather than ignoring that awkward conversation.

Speaker B: It sounds like what you're saying as well is kind of be clear on your boundaries, but actually sometimes those boundaries will be blurred and it's deciding when you need to blur them, but when you need to be really fixed with them as well. And as you say, at some points you'll have decisions to make as the MD where you need to make those decisions, but know that you can make them in a way that isn't pulling you into that personal kind of territory as well, so that the decisions are respected, but people know that you're making them for the business as well as thinking about the wider family.

Speaker A: I think it's being honest about like the motivation behind the decision. Like you say, you know, the openness to say, this isn't personal. This, you know, I've made this shin because of X, Y and Z and taking the time to do it. You know, I think particularly as a younger generation coming through, what you tend to think is, I know what I'm doing, I know what, you know, you're the older generation. I'm coming in, I'm taking it on. And I think generally in the wider world there is a bit of dismissal of the older generation. You know, apparently they, you know, they vote for Brexit, they ruin the, ah, earth. All those things that are kind of put in the media and you know, all the young people aren't working hard and young people doing this and uh, that which all of that is completely false. You know, the older generation, yes, things could have been done better, but the older generation created lots of opportunities, technology. They created all sorts of things for the world that are, uh, positive. And the younger generation are really hard working. You know, a lot of the young people we have coming into work are really hardworking, really intelligent, really switched on. So I think it's not letting some of that outside noise come in and then having an open conversation that says, this is where I'm coming from. Where are you coming from? And that compromise and meeting in the middle and you will have that personality clashes. But I think if you, if you're open about it and you talk about it and you have those awkward conversations that no one wants to have, but you have to have them, that's definitely stood us in a lot better stead than ignoring it and letting barriers to build up.

Speaker B: And you mentioned it a couple of times about Angela and Keith stepping back and you know that that sounds like it. It's been gradual, as you say on some levels and quite quick on others. Did you see a difference in terms of their personal planning and considerations around stepping back after what happened in 2020? Because we've generally, you know, talked to a lot of family businesses that say that was a real catalyst for change on a personal basis as well as a business basis.

Speaker A: Yes, I think it's a simple answer to that question and I will expand. So it isn't just a one word answer, I guess I think they were heading towards some form and I hate to say because if they listen to this, I think still retirement is a word they don't really want to use. So I don't know another word for it. I was going to have to say it. So I think previous to Covid, I think there was a plan in there to the R word and move away from the business at some point. Now I think they'll always be involved in many ways. Mum loves product innovation. She's an. I mean she's a true entrepreneur in the actual sense of the word entrepreneur, you know, not like the sense is banded around, but actual entrepreneur. That's what she comes up with, ideas, creation, products. She has some crazy brain that can basically create products, just uh, 3D and all those kind of things. I think she will never completely switch off. And I think Keith's the kind of guy that will always work, uh, and do things to keep him taking over. He actually currently reads the voice for Sherlock Holmes. He does some narration stories which is off the topic completely. But something quite interesting in German as well, which is quite amazing. So Sherlock Holmes in German, which I'm, uh, yeah, anyway, so different topic but so they're off doing things and staying busy and being involved with the business. They sometimes come to the management meetings and things like that. But I think what they have done is, I think Covid has made them accept that that's what they want to do. I think before perhaps there was that treadmill of this is what we've done for however many years. I won't say how many because they'll tell me off. But this is what we've done for how many years? This has been our life. And I think Covid gave them that point to go, no, actually, this is what we now want to do. And that was the catalyst, definitely.

Speaker B: Almost like the permission to pursue their own interests and not feel guilty about it, I guess.

Speaker A: Yeah, and. Yeah, exactly. And having two years of trialling some things that they enjoyed doing and they wanted to continue doing them, you know, and that's what they've. They've paid their dues, haven't they, really? You, uh, know, with their working life. They paid their dues and they deserve to be off reading Sherlock Holmes in German.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. It sounds like a great career and

Speaker A: picking and choosing what they want to do. You know, actually, I'd love to be in the position where you can go into the business that you created and do the bits that you love doing, because, let's be honest, majority of my job I absolutely love, but there are some things that I'd love to pass to someone else when I get the opportunity.

Speaker B: Looking to the future of the business, then. And when I had a, uh, look at your LinkedIn bio, I absolutely love the fact that it starts with businesses should be forced for good. To me, that just clearly shows how strong your sense of sustainability is and it's at the core of what you do. So what made that decision process start, then, for you to head towards B Corp? I'm really interested to understand more about that.

Speaker A: Yeah. So we. So obviously B Corp measures certain aspects of a business and it was kind of more that we were, we were acting a certain way as a business. We were making sure our decisions were kind of following a certain pattern. We were being mindful of the environment with our products, we were being mindful of our team by kind of investing in their, uh, training and things like that. And I think the reason we actually went for B Corp was to show that some of the things we were saying to our customers, we were doing, we were actually doing because it's very easy for businesses to go, we're green, we're sustainable, we look after our team when the reality isn't that at all. So we wanted something that was kind of external to back up the kind of things we were doing. And I'm kind of a big believer that, you know, it's going to sound like a really cheesy statement, but I don't know if you've watched Spider man and you have that with great power comes great responsibility, which actually, you know, I'm lucky enough to be put in a position where I have the, I hate the word power but you know, have that, I have that uh, almost platform to be able to do something positive. So why wouldn't you? And I think B Corp then allowed us to display that we're doing that externally. So even because I think sometimes it's difficult to show that and prove it if you're only saying from an internal voice.

Speaker B: I don't think it's a surprise either from everything that you've said there that we're actually seeing a growing number of family businesses become B Corp as well. You know, so linked to the culture and the values and actually being able to demonstrate that. Because that's a tangible thing, isn't it? How do you demonstrate it? But do you see that trend continuing, particularly with more next gen entrepreneurs coming through and leading businesses?

Speaker A: Uh, yeah, I think, I think naturally whether they go for B Corp, it isn't for everyone, you know, it isn't something. I think it's great obviously, but it obviously has its pros and cons to it. But for me it's a good way to measure yourself as a company. It's a good way to keep improving as a company. Um, but I think, you know, definitely the generation coming through, I think, I kind of think whether you want to or whether it's a necessity, I think it's going to become something you kind of have to do because it. We're kind of getting to a point in this is my opinion. Again I'm happy to be, to have challenged on this, which is we're kind of getting to a point in society where if we don't start thinking about the treatment of people or if we don't start thinking about the treatment of the climate, businesses, family businesses are all about legacy and all about future. So I'm talking about future gen coming in. Well, if there's no society or environment or planet for the future gen to come into the business on, then there's no point having a business at this stage, if that makes sense. So for me, and again it's my opinion, it's how I want the business to be. I'm not saying it's right for every business, but I think it's about being mindful about the impact of your business and because it kind of has to be for the future to still be here in 10, 15 years time.

Speaker B: It's that whole stewardship role, isn't it? It's, you know, take the business forward and hopefully leave it in a better position than when you took it on so that it can continue to get better for future generations. So you are kind of maintaining that legacy.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think there's probably more awareness around things like climate change. Um, I know my nephews will get taught at school about plastics in the environment or they'll get taught about climate change. And I don't really remember that even when I was younger. Um, I don't think I'm that old yet. But you know, even when I, even when I was younger, how many years ago? I think there is definitely more awareness of. And I'm not saying, you know, everyone's aware and everything's going to be perfect in however many years, but I think there's certainly more of awareness about it and there's certainly thing where we have to do something however small. If everyone does something small, it makes a big impact, doesn't it?

Speaker B: It does. It's all those marginal gains.

Speaker A: It does indeed.

Speaker B: Thank you so much for your time, Josie. There's absolutely nothing better than sharing a lived experience. And I'm sure there'll be lots of other, uh, next gen leaders listening who completely resonate with what you've said today. So I'm going to close with two questions if that's okay. First one, can you tell me your favorite well known family run business and the reason why?

Speaker A: So I've got two, I've got Lego. Hm. I just think it's fantastic business and I think the fact that they diversified so quickly and over the years, uh, they've stayed relevant whether that's changing their range and adding Harry Potter into the range or whatever, and even introducing girls. Lego now apparently. Actually I think that's fantastic. And then just adding their Timpsons as well. I think the mentality of Timpsons and how they treat their team is awesome. So they're my two. I'm sorry I gave you two.

Speaker B: But no, no, we like to hear these examples. Timson seems a popular one as well, so great to hear that one again. And final question, can you share with us a podcast or book recommendation for any rising family business leaders?

Speaker A: So generally from a podcast perspective, I will usually listen to mainly history podcasts. I quite like history about um, whether it's about uh, dictators or about kind of short history of certain events in time. Because I think it's really interesting to learn about how society's built and things that happened over in history. But I think the main book that's always stuck with me is a book called Sapiens by a guy called I think it's Yuval. Noah Harari Absolutely love it because I think it's so fascinating insight into people and I think it's true not just in a societal way, but in a business. And you've got people in your business. You can recognize the things he's saying in that book. So really interesting book if people haven't read it. Definitely worth a read.

Speaker B: Completely agree. Yep, I've read that book and I highly recommend it. I think there's so many great takeaways from it. Thank you very much, Josie so that brings the second episode of the third season of Exploring Family Business podcast with Mazars to a close. If you enjoyed today's show, please subscribe to the series and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It will help us to extend the our reach to the family business community. Join me on the next episode when I'll be speaking with Cara Macklin, Founder and Creative Disruptor at Caram. Cara works with family business leaders and entrepreneurs who want to do things differently, whether that's disrupting an industry, creating meaningful change, or scaling growth. I look forward to sharing more with you then, but for now, thank you for listening. J.