The Great Transition - 2022 and the Acceleration of Succession

I think that actually the next gen are thinking, well, what does my career look like? What do I want to do? And working in the family business maybe gives them a sense of purpose they don't get from their current job. So I think for lots of people, Covid has made them reassess and so we're definitely seeing, I think, an acceleration of some of the succession. I've spoken to nowgen and nextgen and there is an expectation the next gen will go and get some experience outside the family business business first because that is seen as such an important asset. You are listening to the Exploring Family Business podcast brought to you by Mazzaars. I'm your host, Natalie Wright, head of family business at Mazzaars uk. And having worked extensively with family businesses for a number of years, I'm keen to support this valuable sector of our society. At Mazars, we believe there is nothing more personal than a family business. Every family and every business are unique. So we look forward to sharing knowledge, insights and practical tips for those navigating the unique issues that arise from being in business with family. Now, on with this week's show. Hello everyone and welcome back to the Exploring Family Business podcast with Mazars. There are over 5 million family owned businesses in the UK employing around 14 million people and contributing significantly to economic growth. But it's not just about the numbers. The values on which family businesses are built sees them actively employing ethical practices, embracing responsible capitalism and having a direct positive impact in their local communities. All of this means they're generally better positioned for the longer term when compared to non family owned enterprises. But there is an obvious difference that needs careful consideration and planning to ensure that the family businesses don't just survive but but they thrive. And that's the transition between generations. Now, with so much uncertainty following the onset of the pandemic in 2020 and with inflation reaching a 40 year high, we're seeing individuals reconsider what the next stage of both business and life looks like. So do we expect to see an acceleration of the transition from now gen to next gen? Today, I'm delighted to be joined by two guests, both from the ifb, the Institute for Family Business. Fiona Graham is the Director of External affairs and and Neil Davey was earlier this year appointed as the new CEO. Both have a wealth of experience in supporting the family business sector and we'll be talking through the different stages of transition and growth. Neil and Fiona, thank you for joining us today. Thank you, thank you. I know both of you have got lots to say on the subjects that we're going to be talking through. And it's great to have both of you here with us. You know, I'm used to talking one on one, so feel free to jump in to add any points as we're moving through things. If I could just start with some introductions, if that's okay. First of all, Anil, I will come to you because you've been appointed as CEO of the IFB earlier this year. So it's still fairly new role, although I know you've been really active in the few months that you've been there. Do you want to tell us more about the ifb, the role within the family business community and also the role that you're playing now? Yeah, sure. And thank you again, Natalie. I joined about three months ago, just over three months ago, and the IFB has been around for over 20 years. It's the body in the UK that represents family businesses and a whole variety of family businesses from across sectors from across the UK and varying sizes and turnovers. So I joined three months ago. Last year we got a new chairman, Sir James Waits, who's chairman of the Waits Construction Group. He and I share a very strong and common affinity for the responsible business agenda and both feel very passionately about the opportunities and the need and I would argue the responsibility for family businesses right now to be showing leadership and where we're coming in as the ifb, although we have been a membership body, is very much about helping to catalyze a movement for change amongst family businesses. And we support doing that in three areas. Firstly, it's around connecting and convening members of family businesses together in a safe, non solicitous environment. And that's not just the family members and shareholders, it's anyone who works in those businesses. Secondly, challenging those businesses, but in a spirit of critical friendship and constructive provocation around any number of particular issues or topics. It could be around succession or it could be around tax, or it could be around responsible business or esg. And the third, which is really cue in for Fiona as well, is around championing and celebrating the role of family businesses you've already alluded to. I think they're unsung heroes in many respects in terms of contributions to the economy, gdp, contribution to communities, different ethos, different values, naturally taking a more long term view and a core part of what we do. And where Fiona leads is our advocacy work and policy work where Fiona's successfully built up some great relationships at the highest level of government. Leads nicely on to you then there, Fiona. I know you've been at the, the IFB for is around nine years now. So do you want to tell us about the role and the advocacy that you do? Yeah. So as Neil says, I head up advocacy work, which means that we do two kind of key things. One is around directly influencing policies that will affect family businesses and trying to ensure there are better outcomes for them. And then the second is around that championing and celebrating the contribution of family firms and to try and get the recognition that they deserve, which is increasingly kind of a bigger and bigger part of our work on that. We last year ran our first ever Family Business Week in November, which was very successful. We had around 60 MPs visiting businesses or tweeting about it, sending us messages of support. We had kind of video messages from the Small Business Minister and Shadow Small Business Minister from, and tweets on the Family Business Friday from the Chancellor saying how fantastic family businesses were. And for us, it's really important that as we have this conversation about what the future of business looks like and what we expect well run responsible businesses to be doing, that we're recognizing all the good things that family businesses are already doing because they are in every community and everybody interacts with them probably on a daily basis. But as a sector, it's not kind of well recognized as having a coherent voice. So it's important for us that they do. The other part is that influencing policy. So that's making sure that the government understands why in relation to transitions, that business property relief is so important to these businesses and kind of continuing to make the case for why that needs to exist. It's around lobbying directly on the corporate governance changes that have been going on a few years ago and then the recent consultations on those. It's about talking about the impact that defined benefit pension schemes and the historic liabilities and those is having on the businesses a very broad range of topics that we talk about, but they are all things that particularly or exclusively affect family businesses. And so we go in and talk to officials, to ministers, to MPs about the impact and try and make sure that there's a better outcome for family businesses so that the business owners and managers can get on with building thriving businesses rather than focusing on kind of constant regulatory change. You raised some really important and valuable points there actually on the governance and tax and strategy and it's the things that you can think about in isolation, but then when you marry that up with the more, you know, the complex nature of a family business and how that impacts the individuals, you do need to really be aware of those points and understand the significance of how it affects you and the individual members of the family. Yeah. And I think a big part of my job is going in and educating policymakers about what modern family business looks like. I think most people who work in the civil service haven't worked in a family business and so they're writing policy, not properly understanding what family businesses look like and how diverse that sector is in terms of the family's makeup and then their relationship with the business. And so it's going in and kind of explaining the. This. You know, you might think a family business is a father and a son and they pass it from one person to the next. That's nice and easy and everybody works in the business and it's a small business, but actually it's far more complex than that and you need to understand that. I guess in the same way that we talk about blended families now, it's blended businesses as well, isn't it? Yep. And clearly you're working with a real wide range of family businesses across the uk, so we can generalise some points, but certainly what we've seen is some specific themes running through conversations with our family business clients over the last two years in particular. And so I'm interested to know from your perspective and, you know, the ifb, what are you seeing as the current trend when it comes to family business succession? I think Covid has changed things quite significantly. I think that we. There's always succession going on as different members of families reach, you know, the age where they maybe want to step away and different businesses are at a different stage in their life cycle at any one time. But I think Covid has really made people think about the future and what they want to do, and that has made some people think, you know what, I would like to retire. This has been, particularly the past two years have been incredibly stressful. And maybe they're thinking, you know what, I would like to play some more golf, or I would like to spend some more time with my grandkids. And I think that it has opened up conversations within families about what the future looks like. I think also for the next gen, lots of them have, maybe in the way that we've seen across all sectors, you've seen this great resignation. I think that actually the next gen are thinking, well, what does my career look like? What do I want to do? And working in the family business maybe gives them a sense of purpose they don't get from their current job. So I think for lots of People Covid has made them reassess. And so we're definitely seeing, I think an acceleration of some of the succession. I think some of the other trends that we're seeing as well is more of a movement towards people looking at non family management as an option and understanding that that isn't a linear process. That I think there's an assumption that once you become a family that is run, once it becomes a family business that's run by a non family member, that therefore you'll never have a family member run it again. It's kind of seen as this one way journey. And I think people are understanding actually you know what, we could have a really good non family chief exec for the next seven, 10 years, whatever it might be, while the next gen get to that stage in their career where maybe they will be the right person to take over and then we could have a family person again. And you know, it's not just seen as that step that you take and you never have family involved again. And then amongst the larger firms, the other trend that we're seeing are firms starting to think actually do we, we've already got non family management, do we have family on the board? And we're seeing increasing numbers of businesses where they're saying you know what, we might not have a family chairman next time or when this next family Ned retires, we might not replace them with a family member. And reassessing therefore, what does it mean to be a business owning family if you're not on the board and you're not running the business, what is your relationship with the business and how do you share with those people running the business, what's important to you as a family and what your values are. But I think that's particularly amongst the larger businesses that those conversations are happening. Is there anything else that you're seeing from your perspective as you've come in now, Neil, as well with regards to that succession? I think, I mean one of my observations and it picks up on something that Fiona has just alluded to when she says many families are sort of reassessing. What I see is as people have come out of COVID irrespective of your own family business and not all, regardless of your circumstance, everyone in some shape or form is kind of having to take stock and reassess. And I think family businesses are no different. I think that the pandemic, given the tragedy of how many lives were lost and for many families with vulnerable individuals, you know, that brought home very quickly, that actually things can change. For the worse Very, very quickly. And are we ready? And I think it may have accelerated consideration around succession that perhaps might have taken a little bit longer. And when you take that into context, of course people will look to the next generation and then go, well, actually, how do we now engage? And I've heard a lot of of people saying, actually we're really thinking about how do we now effectively engage the next generation in the business? And I think that opens up a whole load of questions and conversations. And in a kind of similar way that Fiona was talking about the different trends and themes, I think what we're also seeing is people consciously recognizing that actually how they may have got engaged in the business will be very different for the generation coming through. So the world, of course, is a very different place it was always going to be, and a very unpredictable one. And you know, given all of the, if I can use probably a poor analogy, kind of a tsunami of sustainability, you know, trends and issues and concerns affecting all businesses and all institutions and people everywhere. And the fact that the next gens in particularly seem to have engaged very strongly in this agenda, particularly around the environment, I think that has forced into some stark contrast that businesses need to be thinking about these issues differently. If you're a listed business, they're under pressure from investors and from customers and from employees. Family business is different model. But ultimately those pressures still exist. And I think in the context of how do you effectively engage the next generation, you can't do it without thinking about, well, what's it like to be in their shoes? And to that point, I think what we're starting to see be interesting to get Fiona's take on this too, but is a greater, I guess, kind of awareness of having a different conversation with the next gen. Not so much to understand their interests, but actually to better understand their priorities. So if I give you a couple of examples that have happened in the last few weeks, one was chatting to a next gen. He, you know, is in line to come into the business in some shape or form. He's a shareholder and actually he's also very entrepreneur and he was starting his own business as well. So there's lots of things going on. And he said he wants to be part of the family business, but he doesn't want to be part of that business because he sees it as a massive carbon polluter and he can't see how the business model is going to survive. And so while he wants to be part of the family company, it's just the nature of that particular business. He doesn't want to be associated with. So he's going, well, if I come into the business, what do I do with it? So there's a big question there about the longevity of the business and the sustainability of the business in many ways. So that's one really interesting dynamic. And the other one, actually I was chatting to you last week. There was a next gen and not in the business expected, if you like, to go into it at some point. And actually during the conversation, what was really interesting and quite enlightening and he was being very open and very honest about this, during the conversation a penny dropped for him and he said, you know what, actually I don't want to be in the family business. And he admitted that to himself openly and publicly in front of his sister, you know, but I think there are conversations which allows that generation to be able to be really open about it and then you can have a conversation with, well, how do you actually engage them? And actually is it right to. So I think the whole nature of those conversations may well be changing and hopefully changing for the better. Because if we're open about those things and it opens up opportunities for product innovation, system innovation, customer innovation, all sorts of opportunities can come out of those conversations. Whereas if you don't have them, you may argue, actually, will the business have a long term future if it's not going to be sustainable? So I think it's a very different environment, I think, to start thinking about the needs and priorities of the next generation. The more we might have seen before. I think this generation of current leaders are probably more aware of any previous generations about the difference in the way that the, you know, the future leaders communicate their expectations, their desires from what work looks like to them. I think there's been kind of these quite small changes between generations before and there's now an awareness that there is this enormous divide in expectations and wants from the coming generation, but people don't necessarily know how to respond to it. But I think the positive is people, as Neil says, people are very aware that there is this hugely different set of desires and expectations amongst the next gen and they do want to address it and talk about it and understand it then maybe not fully there yet, but I think awareness is the most important first step rather than just assuming this is how we used to do everything. I'm going to fax you the board papers and you can have a look like they know that that's not going to work. They're all talking about, oh, should we be doing stuff on TikTok for our next gen. Is WhatsApp the way to do it? How can we engage them? So it's very positive that people are aware that they do need to think very differently about it. And if you think about the whole debate about the future of work, I mean you can look at that in any number of angles. People talk about hybrid working but actually mental health and wellbeing in the workplace, workplace environment, any number of topics. I think if you talk to most next gen ers, they haven't got the answers but they just want to be part of the conversation and part of designing the solution. So it's not a case of the now gender got the answers and trying to impose or the next gen have got the answers and trying to impose on now Actually I think that's where it's a really interesting and rich conversation to be had which where fantastic ideas for innovation come up. So I think it's a really interesting opportunity by bringing those two together in an environment where they feel safe to air these questions and ideas and concerns. I think it's interesting as well what you both said there with various different points about how much there's some, you know, there's a close alignment between and sorry Neil, I know you don't like the using the acronym but I will talk about ESG but just because it's probably, you know, it's becoming more synonymised with business now, isn't it? But when we're talking about that, we're talking about responsible business, but with ESG. But then also do those family members want to be involved or is that coming back to a point you raised earlier, Fiona? Is now a time to think about actually having non family members and they might take the business in a certain direction and whether that's the management, the leadership at board level, you've got to almost think about it in a much broader way now than it has been in previous generations because the world is changing at point some such a rapid rate I think as well people when it comes to next gen engagement and whether the next gen want to be involved in the business and I think there's a question about what involvement means. So you can be very involved in the business as a shareholder, as a member of a family council, as just part of the kind of the family that's. There's so many more routes to involvement in a family business than just being the, you know, being the boss. But I think that people, when it comes to engaging the next generation, it's so important to keep the door open because what you want to do at 17 or 18 is not necessarily the same as what you want to do when you reach 35 or 45 and you've been out in the world and you've understood well what is important to me and you've had those conversations. There's so many next genres within our network or even kind of people now running their businesses. Who said, when I was 18, I didn't want to have anything to do with this. It felt like a complete burden around me. I didn't want to spend that much time with my family. The weight of expectation, everybody assumed it was what I was going to do. I couldn't run further away from it. And then they say, but then I started to think about it and I started to develop these skills and become more confident in what I could actually offer this business. And as I started to understand it more, I thought I can add real value to here and I can work with my family. And I feel that kind of pull of the emotional connection to it more. And so I think it's really important not to put a kind of a deadline or a point where you say, you know, by 25, you're either in or you're out. You know, actually you're good. That's not the best for the business because you're going to close off the opportunity of having some really, potentially some really amazing talent coming in. So I think that it's not just a, you know, there isn't one deadline that you can, that you can make that decision by. And do you see that there is a reluctance from the current or the now gen, let's say, to consider, you know, let's bring in someone perhaps without the family name, allow the next gen to go and seek experience skills elsewhere and then make that decision. You know, is there anything that's a barrier to that happening currently? I think the now gender really understand that it is very beneficial for the next gen to go out and get outside experience and really encourage it. I think actually what I've heard from some families over the past few years is they had constitutions that said you're required to have this level of education or this amount of experience. And actually when they talked to the next gen, the next gen felt that that was designed to keep them out the business. So I think whereas they felt that they'd written something that was there to make sure that they went out and got all this great experience, the next gen perspective was they're putting such a high barrier to get involved in the business. They mustn't want me. And people are kind of looking again, what are their education policies in their family constitution? What does it say about getting outside experience? Because it's about that perception, you know, and actually they hadn't, maybe, maybe they hadn't thought about the way it looked to the next gen when they wrote it. But I see a huge amount of enthusiasm from next generation to be involved in these businesses and to and for themselves to go out and get experience so that they can bring in new ideas and new thinking and help the business innovate and you know, thrive for the long term. Natalie, that goes back to your earlier point about how do we successfully engage. The example Fiona just gave could have been avoided through conversation. So that interaction and dialogue and openness is really, really key. And just to iterate what Fiona said, I mean I've number of cases in the last few weeks I've spoken to nowgen and nextgen and there is an expectation the next gen will go and get some experience outside the family business first because that is seen as such an important asset. And in this, in the same way that employers know increasingly have to think about their branding and how they attract the best talent and what, you know, how do they make it an attractive place for people to work. The families understand that they need to. That's the same for the family members. A lot of the next genres have a lot of other options. You know, they've got, you know, good education, they've got these great kind of networks and this huge family legacy they can learn from and they're generally quite entrepreneurial. So what is it that you're going to do to make your business attractive to them rather than them pursuing one of the many other options that they probably have. Great example that you gave there actually. And it's I guess a testament to the fact that perception and reality can be quite different. And unless you've got those open lines of communication, sometimes it is a third party, isn't it, coming in and giving you that space and framework to talk about it. And it's one conversation unravels so much and you realize actually we've got the same end goal viewpoint, but we've just got different ways of thinking how we get there. One concept that Fiona just touched on which is really important is this idea of entrepreneurialism. So let's face it, if you're in a family business, somewhere in the family someone was the entrepreneur that started it. Now the second gen may not have been the ones or third, but the first gen. Yes. And actually and I'm not suggesting this is representative, but it was striking that some weeks ago, sitting with a collection of next gen ers in London, many of them actually were international next gen ers. I would say half of them around this table, probably about 15 people. So a good half of them were next generation. There was the option and the route to go into the family business for something was expected to, but half of them had set up their own businesses separate from the family business. And the majority of them were designed with some kind of environmental or social impact as part of the business model, not as a kind of gifting or philanthropic. It was core to the business model. And if you're a now gen and that is your next generation, surely, surely those are assets that you would want in any candidate wanting to enter the business. So I think again, it's just how do you tap into that entrepreneurial spirit and understanding of the current context? Because the products and services that they're designing now are kind of the ones that are going to help build resilience into your existing business for the future. So there's a massive resource there that really needs to be harnessed and is literally on your doorstep. Great point. And we've talked in previous episodes about entrepreneurial is a. You know, do you sometimes, if you're second generation, let's say you've looked at first generation, they started the business, have what we would consider the classic traits of an entrepreneur. But if you don't see that in yourself, is that almost a barrier? But it's just finding what does an entrepreneur mean to you and how can you maybe transform the business in a different way? You don't have to repeat what's been done before and probably the business needs you to do something different as well for the future. At our conference that we've just had, it was all around leadership. And one of the speakers was the next Jenner and he was talking about, you know, he's from this kind of, he's the second generation. So that kind of classic thing that he's not the entrepreneur. And he was talking about how he had kind of originally seen all the traits that the founder had and thought, well, I don't have that. That's not me. Am I the. And I think there was that kind of questioning, am I therefore not the right person to run this business? And it was about, no, it's about what are my skills, what are my leadership qualities and what am I going to build. It's not about trying to replicate something and force yourself into holes that don't suit your skills or your personality because you're never going to do that. An entrepreneur is a very different thing to, you know, to a second or a third generation, the business leader. So it's about understanding, well, what are the skills that you need for the time and what are the leadership qualities rather than trying to artificially push yourself in the wrong direction because that doesn't benefit anybody. And also something you just mentioned, Natalie, it links to the piece around entrepreneurialism that family businesses compared to other business forms such as private equity backed or publicly listed, they have earned the opportunity to make long term decisions, to innovate and take risks where leaders of other businesses may not have that opportunity by virtue of the ownership structure and the priorities of the current owners. Actually that, you know, I say it is earned. It's not something which came by chance. It's earned. And as part of that, that creates a really interesting environment for a next gen to come in with some ideas around innovations and trial and a safe space to try it. And that is a phenomenal kind of laboratory where a privileged place where the next gen come in and they can be given a safe environment to try things. And out of that, you know, who knows what that will mean for the future of the business, you know. So I think that's also something not to be overlooked. And it's important for family businesses to recognize actually they've got quite a potentially quite a nice competitive advantage there. I completely agree. We often see that actually real genuine value and USP really in a lot of family businesses is that ability to innovate and do it quickly because they're so nimble and they're able to make those decisions without, as you say, going to shareholders. Externally, I think when we talk about succession or transition, we talk a lot about the next generation. We've been doing it today. But I think that what's really important as well is for the current gen or the senior gen to think about what their future looks like and what role they're going to play in the business. And actually this is another really kind of key strength of family businesses is that you don't lose that knowledge when somebody retires. They're still part of your family. You can still pick up the phone and say, how do we deal with this? I think that really showed in Covid. You know, some of the businesses we were talking to said we've been through pandemics, we've been through world wars, we've been through all sorts of things. You know, we've never been through this, but we know we can adapt and it kind of gave them that resilience. But I think that in a time like now, when there's this massive inflationary environment that most, you know, kind of, or an awful lot of people in very senior positions have never had to deal with because of their age, you know, it's being able to have a defined role for the outgoing generation, but so that you can still tap into that knowledge and say to them, how do we deal with, how did you deal with all this kind of inflation stuff when you were running the business is really important and I think that that's a key strength, but it's also a challenge to make sure that you set boundaries and it's clear what that person's role is, rather than it being kind of hazy and that institutional knowledge enlisted companies is considered gold dust. And it quite often just runs through the fingers like sand. In a family business, as Fiona said, actually it's still there on call. That's really important. It's interesting actually, as you said that I was just thinking, I had a conversation with a client yesterday afternoon and we were talking about everything that's going on currently. Inflation, markets, I guess a lot of the turmoil that we're seeing when we turn the news on. And his first thing that he said to me was, Natalie, I've been through this before and talking about experience, I've been in business for 45 years. Actually the challenge is supporting the next generation because they've just gone through an MBO supporting that next generation to understand again that, you know, they had challenges in 2020. This is a different set, but there is a way to work through it. And actually I've got some knowledge and experience to support you through that. But you're ultimately the decision maker. Yeah. And thinking then about your role and the ifb, what, what are you doing to help members through the transition? Is there a way that you're supporting them currently? Do you have ways in which that you work directly with members? I think in a number of ways, yes. So if I go back to those three things we said up front, what we consistently see, and it's been one of the things from day one, which is when members of family businesses are in the same room connected to other members of family businesses in a safe, non solicitous environment, the ability for them to share experiences and knowledge and bounce off ideas is absolutely phenomenal. So that's not the IFB doing that, we're just creating the environment for it to happen. I think secondly, in that spirit of challenge, we work with other advisory firms who can be brought in, but equally they could come to us or we could recommend other people in the network who has been through something similar. So we play that role. And I think in the third area, and this really speaks to Fiona's work, is how we're making sure that we're advocating around policy and regulation that creates a regulatory environment and framework for those businesses to do very well. And as we heard earlier from Fiona, in a lot of cases, those people who are designing those policies have not been in the shoes of a family business owner. So it's done remotely, from the outside, without any kind of understanding or empathy of the situation. And I think if we can come in and help bridge that gap. So the policy and regulation is much better designed to reflect the needs and priorities of family businesses, not just for themselves. But given what we were saying about the contribution of family businesses to the economy and their role in societies, that's a business model that should be supported and amplified. And government's got a key role in helping to do that as opposed to just lumping every business form into the same bucket and thinking, oh, everyone, everyone behaves like a listed company. Actually, that's not the case. And so if we can help directly or indirectly, businesses there, of course that's what we want to do. Often when people come to, to the IFB or come to one of our events or our conferences, the kind of initial feedback is, oh my goodness, okay, I'm not alone, you know, I'm not the only one that's going through this or thinking about this. And it can be quite a lonely place to kind of lead a family business if you don't have that network of other people you can talk to. So a lot of what we do is about trying to show people the questions that they don't know exist and then bring together families so that they can, you know, learn from each other and as Neil says, you know, share their experiences so they can find the right path for them. I think one of the things that was interesting from our recent conference was how many non family people were coming and found it really, really useful to understand what the family's mindset is. Being the non family person in a family business is quite a strange place to be. And if you've not done it before, sometimes the, the way that the family make decisions or the reasons behind some of those decisions aren't necess necessarily the way that you've kind of previously operated. So for them it's been, it's very, very useful for non family people. It's useful to come and hear the family stories and say oh my, you know, the family that is the business I work in does that. And okay, now I kind of understand why when they maybe wouldn't have felt that it was something they could ask about before because it felt like a family issue and maybe you were overstepping to ask the question. So it's about kind of sharing experience so that you can learn from others what we're keen to do. And as well we talk about safe environment but also challenging critical friendship and constructive provocation is take the example there where we might have a family business member and a non family executive in the business and there is this sense of where are the boundaries and are we stepping over the line etc. If there's an elephant in the room, we want to create a safe place to bring the elephant out of the corner, shine a light on it and then air those issues. Because ultimately it's in everyone's interests to table them and work through them. And by not doing that actually we're just creating problems for the future. So I think that's where, you know, we can also hope to play a key role. Things that you both said there actually are exactly the things that I've heard from members. It's the shared experience and that supported peer to peer work as well and the ability to do it in a safe environment but also a confidential one. And especially if you're working in a business where it is quite a lonely place to be at times and you don't always feel like you can be open about how you're feeling because you almost need to put on a front. Yeah, I think people come in and they kind of feel the experience of our events is probably quite therapeutic in some way because I say there is a not alone and actually there's somebody else to go. So there's just this exchange of information almost immediately that's so open and so honest you wouldn't get it anywhere else. And that's, you know, you suddenly realize you are amongst friends and family and that comes across very quickly. If I could just close with two quick fire questions to both of you if that's okay. Could you tell me your favourite well known family run business and the reason why? I'll go to you first, Neil. Well, obviously apart from weights. Absolutely. I think one of mine actually is Warburton's. I think to be honest, some of these I didn't realize it was a family business and we touched on earlier, I think they've really, really, really stuck to their core purpose the whole way through. And they've just done what they've done brilliantly for generations and grown as a consequence. And I think they've always really, I think they've always had the community center of what they do. And bread making is a pretty core staple of a community. Getting up at three in the morning, whatever to get the ovens going. And I think, you know, Boston hotel is saying the family do that now. But the point is there is that ethos and it still feels very strong and congruent. Yeah, absolutely gives you that feeling, doesn't it? Whenever you see one of the adverts or you know, you see something from them, you get that feeling of community and family spirit. And same question to you, Fiona. So I live in southwest London and there's an excellent ice cream business called Jefferson's. They have a branch in Balham if anybody wants to go. And they do the most amazing ice cream. So I love that one for different reasons. I'm a big fan of Paver's Shoes. So Stuart Paver, who is one of the family and has been the managing director there, is absolutely an example of a family business that leads with the heart and a leader who kind of really lives an authentic kind of values based business. And he has been traveling to taking medical supplies out to Ukraine over the past few months and has been doing amazing work. So I definitely encourage people to look up Stuart Paver on just giving to support that. But I think that's a brilliant example of a family business leader who's putting his skills to good use in a kind of a societal way. Natalie, It's a really interesting question because it's difficult to answer because there are so many you could refer to and see different aspects of different ones. If you ask me the same question about PLCs, I could probably give one. It'd be a superficial answer, it'd be based on the brand campaign. Whereas actually what we're talking about is something so much more deep rooted and fundamental. It is once you start talking about the reasons why, completely different, aren't they? It's not about the product, it's about the values and the feeling. Absolutely. And a final question, I'll come to you first, Fiona. Do you have a podcast or book recommendation that you could share for rising family business leaders? So this is not necessarily the most insightful in terms of how to structure things and all that kind of stuff, but as a very interesting read, the House of Gucci by Sarah Gay Foyden is. I don't know if you know, the Gucci story. Yeah. And it's recently been made into a film. But it is an Absolutely. Yeah. It's an incredible story. And as somebody who works with family businesses, there's a lot to make you think in there. Brilliant. Yeah. I'm sure lots of people have read that, have seen the film recently as well. So the book is always better. I'm gonna cheat and give two. So the first one is by Professor Alex Edmonds. His book Grow the Pie. So this isn't just for family businesses, for any business, really. And it is that whole argument. It's not just about shareholder versus stakeholder capitalism. It's much more about. Actually, this is not a finite pie that we're all trying to carve up a greater share of. Actually, if we take a different approach, it's about growing that pie for everybody's benefit, not just. And it's not a binary. It's not a binary argument. And he's brilliant. You can hear him speak. He's got lots of podcasts. Fantastic stuff. Young, very inspiring academic. And the other one actually is unrelated, but it's a book called A Line by Jonathan Trevor. And what's interesting about this, particularly as organizations have been forced to business models have been challenged, massively disrupted, and are thinking about how to, as the book suggests, realign. If it's the next generation coming in with a very different idea of where the business needs to go. And that isn't just about a new product or service, but is a fundamental rethink of the organizational strategy, design, structure, capabilities, operations, systems. Actually, this book is probably the best one I've ever come across, which provides some thinking and a framework to help businesses through that process in a way, and this is really important in a way which doesn't take a siloed mentality, but is about integrating that across an entire organization and from a responsible business perspective. So if an organization is trying to take on responsible business ethos, whether that's ESG or sustainability or whatever you want to call it, you know, that's not something you can park in a silo or a department in. A responsible business is everybody's business. And if you're taking on a new strategy and it's for everybody's, everyone needs to own it. This is a great book for thinking about how you might approach that and then implement it. Three brilliant recommendations there. Thank you both. We'll put details of those in the show notes. Any final points that you'd like to add regarding any work that the IFB is doing this year. You mentioned the Family Business Week before, Fiona. Do you to want to just tell us about that? Yes. So we are running Family Business Week again this year from the 21st to the 25th of November and strongly encourage all businesses to get involved and to share their stories as part of that week. We're really looking at place and the kind of contribution that family businesses make to their community and the place around them, how that place shapes them and then also how that place can be used to sell their story and their kind of products, particularly in international markets, you know, where their place becomes a really big part of their brand identity as well. So yes, there'll be more details coming on the on the Family Business Week website soon about this year's activities and also just flag what we're focusing on as a team for the next six months and also working very closely with our members and board on are our plans for the next few years, which will be really kicking off from January 1st. But I sort of put down a marker that alongside the Family Business Week, which would be a really exciting series of events and lead up equally looking to the new Year, we've got some ambitious plans for that. So I'll say watch this space. I'll put links to the website in the show notes but 21st to 25th of November, Fiona, and we can share more details of that as well. Time progresses as well, so look forward to seeing what comes from that. Thank you both so much. I know we've covered a lot there, but great insights I've been writing down frantically as well as we've been chatting some brilliant points. So thank you both so much for your time today. You're very welcome. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you. That brings episode five of the third season of the Exploring Family Business podcast with Mazars to a close. If you enjoyed today's show, please subscribe to the series and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It will help us to extend our reach to the family business community. Join me on the next episode when I'll be speaking with Andy Howarth, second generation of Howarth's uk. Gavin will share the story of his successful transition which has led to him being managing director and majority shareholder of the business whilst it wasn't with our despite its challenges. Gavin will talk about the relationship that he's built with his father and how they're both now pursuing their own interests. I look forward to sharing more with you then, but for now thank you for listening.