Yoga For Tired People & Building an Audience on Substack with Jo Hutton

Well, hello and welcome to the Super Connected Show, where I'm delighted to be joined by Joe Hutton, who is the founder of Happy Yoga in Newcastle and the Newcastle Yoga School, which is also a workshop facilitate a train and a sub Stack, author of do you want to tell us the name of the substack that you? Yes? Yes, So Substack's my main thing at the moment. It's called yoga for tired people, and it's sessions that you can do without having to get out your mat or change your clothes for So it's just yoga that you can weave into your day without It hasn't become like another thing on your to do list to do where you think, oh gosh, I haven't unruled my yoga mat for six weeks.

You can just stick on a video, do it while you're at your desk and get on with your life. Basically, yeah, well I love that. Well before when live, I said that at six o'clock this morning, I enjoyed doing your ten minute yoga shoulder Reset and it was exactly what I needed. So I went on sub stack and the first thing that came up was this this video about ten minutes long, and it was just a way that you can sit in your chair and you can just reconnect with different parts of your body.

I suppose that your shoulder and your neck and your arms and stuff. And it was very good. You're very calm, relaxing tea chair, as you'd expect, but you've got a nice manner about you. But it was good because I don't do any stretching.

I don't do anything like that. And I was up earlier than normal this morning, but it was it was nice to use part of your body, your shoulders, in your neck that you that you don't very rarely. Yeah, and it doesn't take very long. I think that people always because it's funny that you're like, oh, I don't do any stretching, because I always feel as a yoga teacher that I'm like a specter of people those guilt that they haven't done stuff.

So whenever people find out I mean, your teacher there, I was like, oh, oh, I don't stretch enough. I don't meditate enough, I don't do others like all of these things that they don't do. But it really doesn't. I think people think it's got to be much bigger than it has to be.

And it can literally just be like two minutes before you set down to do your work, and it just completely changes how you are in your body for the rest of the day, even that little little, tiny, tiny bit. Yeah, definitely, Wellieven that like ten minutes isn't long, but like even in that ten minutes, it was multiple small little movements you could do in like a minute or like two minutes, you know, each each of those things, And yeah, it was just a good reminded amazing I could do I could do this every day, I could do it.

Why don't I do this? Because it felt so good? So I love that that you're doing that. So we'll talk.

We'll go back into sub stack in a moment, But do you want to just start by saying how you got into yoga? Course? So I got into yoga. I was a bit of a reluctant yoga do it because I was I didn't come to yoga myself.

I was at drama school in Glasgow and while I was there, they basically forced you to do yoga, so it was part of the curriculum. It was. They were quite ahead of their time really because their thing was that in order to have a career in the arts. You needed to look after yourself.

They were like, you will burn out, you will not be able to be sustainable in a career in the arts unless you have a wellness practice yourself. And as part of that, they made us like they literally it was part of the curriculum you had to do I anger yoga class. I think it was three times a week, and at different points we did it at different amounts of time. So sometimes we were doing it every day and sometimes we were doing it like maybe once a week, and I really didn't enjoy it.

So when I first got to it, I did not like it at all. It was too slow. Like you've got to remember, I was eighteen, I was at drama school. It was the height of indie sleeves.

I was out partying. We were young and having fun. And the idea of sitting still, moving slowly connecting with my body, like at that point in my life, I wasn't even aware that I had a body, Like I kind of felt like my body was this meat puppet that I was pulling around that I was like, I was, you know, that wasn't doing what it was told. And so this idea that I would spend time like breathing and stretching and being slow, like it was almost painful for us.

But then when I was so, I did it for about a year and haste it for about a year, and then I had a bereavement and in that time of grief, I found a gym in yoga and a gym in Glasgow that did like I think it was called body balance. It was like this like hybrid of yoga tai chi, like it was in a gym. They like played music, and I think that level just just got us and I like really started to enjoy it and it was just what I needed. And it was like this forty five minutes where I couldn't think about anything else and I just did that, and I think through that I was able to then start to enjoy the yoga classes at the at university.

And then my course was four years and by the end of the four years, I was like, oh, I do not want a job in the arts. I did not want to be an actor at all, but I like was so in love with yoga. So I did a work exchange with Yoga Training School and I basically went to them and was like, I'm got any money, but I have got marketing experience because I had done my degree was in there was some marketing in the degree that I did, so I was like, you know, I understand websites, can I help you?

And so I did. I basically did a work exchange in so I did their marketing and exchange for training. So I trained to be a yoga teacher. I like totally bootstrapped it.

I didn't have any money at all, and then I did that again with like venues and stuff, so I didn't really have any seed money. I didn't have any startup money. So I would go to venues and I would say, I haven't got any money to pay you, but I do know how you do run a website, and I can, like I can work the internet. And at that point, you know, that was like fifteen twenty years ago, so like nobody understood the internet then.

So I was to have my skill there. I was able to say I'll do this in exchange for a room on a Wednesday night to teach my yoga classes. And then it went from there, and then eventually I got I kind of built up, and then I didn't have to do the work exchange anymore because I was making enough money from yoga to be able to have that as my full business. And I set up a yoga studio in the center of Newcastle and I ran that for ten years and then I went and then I went online.

So that's how I became a yoga teacher. Amazing. I love that. So yeah, Bartwin system exchange because you can see why that would appeal because like a lot of sweetness statement, but like a lot of art and cultural organizations don't have loads of money, often amazing at what they do, but not not too great a digital or where sites.

And so the fact that you were willing to and able to help out with that in exchange for something that that they possibly had capacity to. I had space for you and it was no extra effort on their part for you to join a class. And that's that's awesome. Very entrepreneurial.

Very if you didn't realize you're an entrepreneur back then, but you're very entrepreneurial. I think it's the like I think one of the great things about being young is that you don't realize that you might be asking something cheeky and you also have loads of energy. Like so I didn't have any money, but I had energy and balls. So I did that and then like then the money came later.

Kind of thing. I love that. I think everything's energy, and if you've got energy and enthusiasm, then yeah, why why that's very hard to say no to? And if you and if you're clearly into something as well, then yeah, why why would anyone say no?

Yeah? So when you so, when you decided to open the studio? Was that was that difficult? Because most of my career has been online, interestingly, so the thought of actually opening a physical bricks and more thing sounds more scary to me than all the other things that I've ever done.

It was it was a natural step because I had set up so at that point I was running yoga classes. It was like a pretty bog standard fitness class set up where I had a class over here and a class over there. And at that point I already had a community of people who were regularly turning up to my classes. I was already spending money on venue higher because I was spending money over on a Tuesday night here and on Wednesday night here, and I was having to run from building to building.

So it was such an easy step to go from to go from right we're going to have all of these. So I never like jumped up like three steps. It was just like, right, okay, we're going to like consolidate all of the business into one into one venue. I think it became much harder later on when when obviously COVID and everything happened, and then that was a bin fire, wasn't it.

But the I think the what I've done a number of times in my business is that I'll sometimes step sideways to go up rather than just sometimes you kind of need to like set up things around it so that when you make that up step, it's more like a slide along rather than a oh what's But I was already doing all of the stuff, so it was just like having one main space, which was, if anything, was a bit easier. Awesome. And do you still do you still have the in person classes or not? No?

No, yes, it's purely online. I did. I ran both of them together for a long time because I loved my studio like I loved it, like I loved everything about it. I loved like going in and seeing everyone.

And I've ran it in ten years, so it was literally like, you know, people who I had seen get married, have kids, like I'd seen them have their second kid, I'd seen them like go off to university, I'd seen them come back. I'd like that. So I was so rooted in and like a real community. But I knew that what for where what I wanted next?

I needed the geographical freedom and also just on a numbers level, like literally on a purely like like in person stuff is so much harder now than it was when I first started, because obviously we're pushing uphill against like things like business rates and stuff. So it's like the overheads whereas online and also we've got this absolutely amazing opportunity online, isn't it, Where it's like there is no end to how big you can grow online and the overheads don't really change.

So it's this kind of push pull. But I loved like so for a long time I actually ran both in tandem, but I was as somebody who literally teaches people how not to burn out. I was like, this is this is not this is not sustainable. I'm going to have to let my in person studio go.

But it was really really difficult, and I think eventually my long term plan will be to bring an in person thing back because I just I just look, I just love it. And I still run retreats. So I run. Retreats abroad, and I run retreats in the Zumberland, and I still like, I still see people from Master and stuff.

But I had my baby. I had to throw my baby out so that I can grow a new baby and then maybe I can bring it back. Yeah, that makes sense. I know that there's a there's a guy I really like.

He was a bunch of a philosopher, author called Derek Sivers, and he says with his business, he had to decide that he was either going to be local or global. If you can't both, you've got to decide or national international. So because he was very heavily involved in the New York startup scene and then that was great, but he couldn't grow beyond that. And then he and then he realized his audience was facial international.

So that's that's where he shifted his focus. And yeah, like there's been an explosion, hasn't it, Like online fitness, well being on on social media, which which just it's been great. Obviously you've your benefit from that. There's a there's another friend of mine called ADS.

I don't know if you've heard of him, who's like a videographer for fitness and top sports people who travels the world film and like some of the best fitness people. And he's saying what he's noticed is there's there's definitely a trend now where people are wanting the missing that community of like in person. But it's it's not just a gym now or or a fitness center. It's like people are going there to work out, to have the classes, to have their coffee, for the co working spaces.

It's it's much more of like a I guess like an adult youth club. So there's there's definitely a rise in that. So maybe maybe maybe that's something to lock out a consider in the in the coming years, just without but yeah, it's alongside all your other amazing stuff that you're doing, which we're talking about now. So when you moved online, was it did you start off just on your website and social media first or did you go on to sub stuck straight away?

So I was I've always kind of been online because I love I've got a real passion for the Internet, Like I've just got a passion for the Internet. I love the Internet. I think it's got We've got so much potential with the Internet to like just change the world. And like I'm you know, I'm a child of Yahoo chat rooms.

Like I. Am just at the age of like being like an Internet native. And I went to drama school. I love making little videos.

I love learned like I love the tech side of it. I just have a real passion for it. So I have always made yoga videos, but because I was local, I never really thought about a global audience at all. That was always just like I made videos for my people that were in my studio.

So I was very much like, you come to my class and an add on will be that you can have the videos. And then I decided about about two years ago, I had that reckoning of like I actually read the book five Don't. It's like called don't two times five times? Five times is easier than two times or something from the exact thing.

But the idea in that book is that it's actually easier to five times your profit than it is to double it, because if you try and double it, what you'll probably do is just do more of what you do. And now whereas if some you said to you, but what would you do if you up to five times. It ye like you probably would think of things that were outside of what you're doing now, And I realized that exactly what you're saying, Like I wanted a global impact, like I thought that what I was I just thought that the I just think that everyone can benefit from yogust and the benefits that I was seeing that other people were getting in the local level.

I was like, Oh, this could be great if I could make this bigger. And so I was like, right, okay, because I'm very like I love to take things apart, look at it, see how it works, and then like play with it, Like I've got a passion for working out how things work. And I was like, right, okay, let's let's work out Instagram. Let's work out how Instagram works.

So I did a couple of courses and I like got really nerdy about how to create Instagram videos that were sticky and that people would follow and I would like. And then so I started taking Instagram seriously and I went from having two thousand followers to having one hundred thousand followers in three weeks. Wow. Yeah, it was like insying.

It was like insane because it didn't it didn't just happen in those three weeks. It took about six months for me to like start crack yeah, and then it went back. And then I like really freaked out because I found that too much, because I suddenly just because I had always been talking to people who knew us. So I'd always been talking to people who like I was like, Oh, that Shirley or that's Dan, like I would know who they were.

And then suddenly it felt like I had opened my living room door and the entire universe was sitting in my living room. And I was like, I don't know what to do. I don't know, I don't know what you want. So I had a bit of a like I had a bit of a crisis, not crisis, but like an identity crisis, I suppose of.

Like because you start doubt and what you were, what you were saying, like overthinking what you're going to post. Yeah, because I got really good at making stuff that people wanted and that people wanted to share, but I lost who I was and what I wanted to share in that So I was like, oh, I don't know. I had a bit of a So I like kind of deliberately put breaks on that growth because I was like, oh, this is too much. And my friend Claire Venus, who's a substack educator, she's one of the first adopters of substack, and she just happens I just happened to know her, and she was like, oh, if you want some to do something creative, why, like because I was still itching.

I was like Instagram had become this like my job, which it hadn't been in the past. And she was like, if you want to like scratch that creativitch, why don't you come over to substack. So like went over to substack. Nobody knew me on substack.

I didn't bring my Instagram followers over. I was like, Okay, I'm going to start from scratch. But I started from scratch with the knowledge that I had gained from what I had done on Instagram, and that built I think within I think took about a year, and then within the year I had fifteen thousand followers. And I've been on two years and now I've got forty six thousand subscribers on substack, and I feel much more like I can be myself on substack.

But that's a me problem, not a platform problem. And I feel now I kind of got my feet back again with Instagram, and I'm like, Okay, I know what I'm doing. I can I can, Like I feel like I can be myself on Instagram now. So's I feel like it took a while, but but we'll got there.

Yeah. I think this has really interesting, really valuable as well, because there's like there's a lot of people who have small followings and they want big following, so that set are still striving trying to figure out how to do that. And then at the other end, you have people who have huge followings who are talking about stuff, but people who are You've got good You have got good like one hundred and seventy six or one hundred and seventy five thousand Instagram followers and you say forty six thousand subscribers on substrate.

They're impressive numbers, but you're still growing and you're still but you've you've sort of to a lot of it. You've made it. You know you're at that significant number, but you're talking about what you went through and how you're still approaching it, and you're still figuring stuff out as well, because you're like you're LinkedIn, You've you've got a small following at the moment, but hopefully doing this today will will help get your small followers and increase your audience on here.

So there's always like I've got a pretty good following on LinkedIn, but I've got a pretty tight following on Instagram, And don't even talk about TikTok. I don't have the clue what I've doing on TikTok. But each platform has a different It wants different things, doesn't it. And I think if you play different games and you win different prizes, so like, I think sometimes the lever that you have to pull to grow is a different lever than you have to pull to like get people to buy from you, and it's a different lead to like, So I think it's really and you just learn it from figuring it out, don't you.

Like sometimes like everyone always said, like, oh, you know, don't follow the big numbers because it's ego and it's vanity, But like, I have got an ego and I am vain, Like I almost needed those I almost needed those numbers for me to be like, oh, actually that isn't important. I think if I hadn't have had the numbers, I would still there would always still be part of us that was like, what what what happens on the other side of that door when you get the numbers? And I do think if there is definitely social proof element of it as well, Like I do think it's I do think it's that.

I think it compounds, it makes it, it makes it easy. So lots of front loaded work. I think social media in the Internet is very front loaded work. You do a lot of it at the beginning, and you can sometimes be like is this even doing anything?

But almost the more that you do, the easier it becomes to do. If that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, well I'll tell you so if I if I. So, let's talk about LinkedIn, right, So, I've got a decent number of it's about ten and a half thousand at the moment, rights, but that's taken me a long time to get there, right there.

But then last week I've made some changes to my profile and the follower growth has increased quite rapidly, I think, not bragging here, but like I did get about five hundred and six hundred new followers in the last week or so, right so, previously it was maybe ten twenty, you know. So, and one of the things that's help is I've been a lot more focused on what I'm talking about, Like I've updated my head and my bio, my head and image that image. I'm only talking about events and public speaking and the value of networking and personal profile.

And that's all I'm talking about now, which is I was doing that anyway, but I was talking about a lot of other things in amongst that. Anyway, there's that, but if in amongst those, I've been getting a lot of followers by being getting a lot of connection requests as well, more more so than normal, right, And I've been I do look at every connection requests usually, and I do do it like I'm like, have they got any followers? Or have they got no followers? Right?

And I don't just accept connection requests if people have got a lot of followers, but to me, it is an indication that they're taking things seriously and they've put the work in, that they put the effort in, rather than someone who's got like no followers whatever, and they're sending me a connection request and it sounds a bit wonky, but like I've got ten to half thousand problems, I've got a lot of sort of insight and knowledge and value to give someone just send me a connection request and I don't know them.

There's nothing on their profile. They're not even they're not including a message about why we should connect. It's like I'm less likely to connect than someone who at least sends a message saying, oh, this is why I want to connect and this is what I think we should talk about. It's the same with Instagram and any other profile.

It's not it does matter. I think if someone has a both a certain number of shows that they're taking a servc and that they put the work in, and. I think it's it's it's social proof, isn't it. Like you said, it shows that people are But I also think that you can have a small number on because a like I know lots of experts and I'm sure you do as well, that are just so busy doing the thing that they're expert and in.

Because social media is it like its own expertise, like it's its own full time job like I was. I don't I have more knowledge now, but the knowledge that I have is around social media than like when I was in the studio every day. There's like I'm not a better yoga teacher now that I have more followers, But I am better at social media now that I have more followers because I've had to learn how to do that, But I'm not a better yoga teacher. And I think that there's lots and lots and lots of people.

Isn't there out there that are so busy being an expert in what they're and and that's and it's kind of sad, isn't it that that's how work? But it is how we see it, like like we're just we're just human, Like there is. People people are looking for signals on the for reasons why the follows someone. Well, they look for reasons not to follow you just as much as reasons to follow you.

But you're right, there's like some of the people that send me Connectional cast last week, they're phenomenal, like you can tell that they're at like top of the game or what they do. They're quite unique, but they've got no followers. So because I spend a lot of time helping people raise their profile online or through my events, I want to I want to help these people that want to work with these people because they they deserve to be known for what they're doing. That's one of the reasons why I do these podcasts as well.

But but just quick quickly on this as well. Sometimes if I'm sure you've seen this, sometimes you'll you'll meet a business who tells you that they are awesome digital marketing and social media and website and stuff, and you look at their website or their social media and the website is not very good and the social media they've got no followers. So to me, I'm like, well, I'm not going to take advice from you, because yeah, you could say they're too busy service and the clients, but if they can't practice what preach like, I'm not going to take advice from from them.

Well, it's about embodiment, isn't it. It's like you have to embody what you teach, like you have to show that you've walked the walk and that you've got skin in the game and that you've like you've you can't teach something that you've never that you've never learned, Like, that's not how that's not how it works. You've got to you've got to show that you can do the thing as well. I think, so, I know, yeah, that doesn't I mean, there are people who are very you know, there are some of these businesses who are very good.

If they just do Facebook gods, or they just do Google ads, or they just do SEO, then that's not me. I'm not an seal person and people that's that's the day job, and that's all they do all day, every day. So yeah, that I will take their expertise. But but yeah, and then I was going to say, but you've you've obviously learned.

You you talked before about all that experience that you've had of learning, You're get not being particularly interested or keen on it, sort of being forced to do it in a way. But then you've found a version of it that appeal to you with the music and a little bit more of a like a cooler vibe baby. And then and then you've you've trained, and you've gone through all that efforts to train by bordering or like work exchange as you said. Then you've set up at yoga school, then you've built up a following, and then you've learned how to package it up in a way that people want.

And then that's that's the thing now is people are just so busy spinning so many plates. Even if they really really want something, they just need it packaged up in a way that's easily accessible, and then that might turn into something longer, it might turn into a deeper commitment. But you're and if you're wanting to reach as many people as possible and help as many people and educate them on the benefit and value of yoga, then you're doing all the right things to do that. Yeah, I think that for me, I'm very much of the opinion that something is better than nothing, So I would always rather that people were doing a little bit.

And like you say, that can lead because I know from my experience that like the yoga that I do now is completely different to the yoga that I did when I first started doing yoga, and it's changed time, and I'm sure it'll be completely different to how I'm going to be doing it in twenty years. Like it's always changing. And I think we sometimes have this idea in our head of like what we're always looking for, like the perfect routine or the perfect day, or like this thing that we can replicate every day, and I just think that sometimes that becomes a barrier for people to actually do the things that they could do in that day to make their day better.

Because I think a lot of us have this idea that if something's not big or hard or like difficult to do, like if it's not causing you stress, then it's obviously not worth doing, because I think a lot of us have equated hard work with stress, so we think that if something is fun, then it can't be beneficial. And I just totally reject that. I'm like all the all the things that I do in my life that are the most beneficial. Like often when I'm not enjoying something, then I find that I don't I just don't.

I just don't do it as often. So sometimes you need to like do the smallest thing you can do so that you can remember that you can do it at all. And it's always easier, isn't it when you're in motion to keep in motion than it is to start. I think starting is always the hardest thing.

Like once you've started, it's it's easy to keep going, but starting is the hardest bit. Yeah, totally, And now do you once you probably with this before, Like if you think about pushing a car at stagy car, how hard it is to get the car moving, But once it's moving, it's quite easy to keep it going, or easier to keep it going but that it's like anything, startings the hardest, but once you're once you're in that in that routine, it's a lot easier to keep going. Think about one of our daughters who goes swimming three mornings every every week and five nights every week.

If she ever has a break, it's it's hard to get going again. But once she's doing it, she's just clicks in the gear, she just gets up on with it, cracks on, goes swimming two hours, go to school, there's another two hours afterwards. It's phenomenal really, but difficult once you stop to get going again. So talking about getting going as well.

So so sub stack some people, a lot of people have heard a lot of people won't know what it is. So do you want to and to explain as best you can what it is for you or what the appeal is for you being on there. Yes, So substack is it's like a media platform, so it has lot It started off as like almost like a blogging platform, so it was a way for it was like a paid newsletter, so you would sign up to people's newsletters and they would have a paywall and you could like. And it's different from social media because they say it's different from social media because so on Instagram or on LinkedIn or on Facebook, your followers you don't have their email addressers, so it's like an actual mail and list.

So on Instagram, one of the frustrations that happens is that you put a lot of time and effort into making a making a video and get a follow in, but then it's up to Instagram who on that audience gets to see it. So you're with Instagram, it almost always has to be surface level because at any point you need to make the video sticky enough so that people will watch so that Instagram will show it to the people who follow you. As if you don't do that, then Instagram doesn't show and then there's no point.

So you can never really go past the surface level with Instagram because you always happen to catch attention. So Substack was like, well, how can we do it where it's almost the opposite. So it's a place for long form media and you everything that you make get sent out to all of your subscribers, so it's like a mailing list. It gets sent out to all of your subscribers, but you also get to keep that list, so if you ever wanted to go somewhere else.

It wouldn't be like, you know, if you built up a massive Instagram following if you left Instagram by everyone who follow us on Instagram unless you say come over, and you know how difficult it is trying to get people to come over. So you you have the email list, and then over time they have added new features to it. So there's got they've got like a social media feed now, which is a little bit like a threads freet feed or a Twitter feed. Because what they were finding was, well, how do we like, It's all very well and good you have in your mailing list, but how do we create discoverability with how do people find you?

So they created notes, which is like their their Twitter. And then they also added new features so you can do video on there now, you can do podcasts on there. Now, you can host you can do live streaming on there. Now, like pretty much all of the functionalities of pretty much all of the social media they've got them all on substack now.

So when I put my podcast out, it goes it's just an RSS feed and it'll go to Spotify, it'll go to YouTube, it'll go to it and it's just and Also it's free, so substack take ten percent of everything all of your paid subscribers. You don't pay a monthly fee or anything. So if you wanted to go on there and keep everything free and you just wanted to keep it as a like a home for your stuff, like, you wouldn't have to pay, which is very appealing for lots of people. And then the culture on there is very much that you if you like someone, you pay to subscribe to their things.

So there's lots of different models. Some people have it where it's like a paid newsletter. Some people have it where it's like a Patreon model where everything's open and you just pay to keep it like there because you like the person doing it and you want them to keep doing it. And then some people have it where it's like more like a membership where you know you have like zoom calls and things, and so it just depends on what model you It just depends on what model you want to do it.

So there's a lots and lots of freedom on substack, which I think is one of the appeals that you can pretty much have like there's no like this is the way it needs to be. You can decide how you want to operate your business on there. I would say it works really well for people who have high volume, low ticket, very good as a lead generation, very good as top of funnel. I get so many people from substack itself, So my main audience generator is the substack engine itself.

Now it's not not it's not Instagram. It's not like I don't bring people over to substack. It used to be at the beginning that I would people I would be bringing up, but now I get it mostly from the substack discoverability engine itself. And yeah, that's that's substact.

If anyone I. Forgot any yeah, yeah. A few more questions that were very cool. So I know you said you've got forty five thousand, forty six thousand subscribers, so I'm sure you do like these analytics.

And so do you know where most of those people come from? Or the UK or the US or they over. Yes, I have a predominantly I can tell you I'll get I'll bring up my substack, I'll bring up my substack analytics. So I'll give you so I can tell you that and give me the exact right.

I'm giving you the rights. And look at my stats, So audience audience locations in the world, so fifty four percent off from the United States twenty four percent, So that's twenty four seven hundred and thirty seven from the Uni States and fifty eight or from the United Kingdom, two thousand from Canada, two thousand from Australia, and I've got six hundred from India as well. Very good. Interesting.

I mean, I think that's your shows, isn't it Like if you're doing your if you're just doing it in person, stuff you're limited onn't you. Like you say, especially Newcastle is different to Manchester or Leeds or Birmingham or London. You know, there's there's only so many people that want to go to an in person you'll class on a certain day and at a certain time in the city. But when you're doing things online, your audience is potentially well it is global.

You've you've got that global audience. That's that's really interesting. So you've am I right, You've you've kept a lot of your stuff fully accessible. It's free, but you have like a pay what you feel or appeel, pay what you think is worth.

Yeah, So I didn't always have that model. I had the model where it was this is how much it is a year or a month, and I just I just thought that for the product that I was doing, the Patreon model worked better. So it's been a bit of an experiment where I've so now I keep the comments and I keep the chat behind the paywall, because otherwise it's the nightmare and I don't want to be spammed. So I was in order to be able to moderate the conversations effectively and safely, I keep everything behind.

I keep the comments behind the paywall. Then all the actual videos are accessible to everyone. And what I was very surprised because I thought when I did that the number of paid subscribers would go down considerably, but actually they've gone up because that people. I think one the price is like it's kind of even.

I basically make the exact same amount of money that I was making before, but I feel I think the energy that I can bring it is very different. I feel like I just prefer and I am not. It's not a money block thing, like I have no shame in making money at all. I've got no shame in making money.

I've got no shame in making money from yoga. I don't think that like it's it's just purely because of this, that's how I wanted this particular part of my business to run, and it's it's worked really well and I'm really really pleased with it. Good. Yeah, that's interesting because I think, well, I'm going to take a closer look at because I suppose if it's like, if you're wanting to help lots and lots of people and you want to share knowledge with lots and lots of people, then as soon as you put a paywall in, then that is a blocker, isn't it?

Like people, A lot of people, most people don't just buy straight away. They need to. It takes a while before though. You know, they're doing their research.

They're checking you out. You do they like this person, or you're consistent, or you're providing value, even if it's a relatively small amount of money. A lot of people they want to build up that rapport and that relationship and get to know you and see that you're that you're given and and then they'll commit. So a lot of people, but then you know then that they see the value and what you're doing rather than the conclusion, rather than you feeling like you have to perform a certain way to keep to justify that subscription or to keep that subscription.

Does that make sense? Yeah, I think that it was. It wasn't necessarily that I was feeling that because I love, like, I feel like the paid subscribers that I've always that I've had in the substack have always just been like the nicest, loveliest group of people. And because of the way that I set up and grew my substack, I feel very much like it feels like my living room, like it feels I feel really comfortable in my substack.

But the I think it was more the because I know that there are people who would really benefit from it that wouldn't necessarily be able to afford it. But I also know that the people who do pay would be They're the kind of people who would be like, well, of course, I'll just keep paying and you can, and then other people can benefit from it, like I think it gives. I think it was knowing my paid subscribers' values that I was like, oh, I feel pretty confident that if I open this up now, my paid subscribers wouldn't just stop paying, because I think they would see that as like, oh, that's a nice thing that I can be doing as well.

I think it makes them feel nice as well, that they're that the money that they're given is also allowing it to be free for other people. I think that's I think that's the draw for the for them. Yeah, cool, I love it. It's a it's a well subs a great platform.

Like I knew a little bit about it, but I didn't know I haven't. I think it's one of those again before when live, we were talking about it's hard to do everything, isn't it. So you have to pick your platforms and maybe do one at a time or a few at a time before you're master them or you figure out where you're at and some audience. Some platforms are better than others for for for certain people, but you can.

And I was like, I'll come back to that in the future, but for now, I've got enough on the plate. But this really that I've paid paid a bit more of a closer look. It is definitely world and its own right. So I wouldn't say like, don't feel like the form more of it if it's work and other places, don't feel like it's another thing that you like have to do.

But one thing that is grateful is that you can actually link straight to LinkedIn from there, so you can if you if you're posting something on substack, you can actually just post it straight to like. It's got the like auto share thing, so it can work really well as like a home for all of your content and then you cross share it straight to YouTube, straight to LinkedIn, straight to your RSS feed. Yeah, that's that's cool. I know.

Yeah, because well, I'm subscribing to the to the free version for now for yours. I haven't haven't committed to pain yet, but you know, let's see what happens in it. But there's only another three of I think there's four other people that I subscribe to you, but but interestingly I don't. It's only today again thanks to you, that I've downloaded the substack app so I can follow people on there, because previously I was getting the emails from other the people that I'm subscribed to, and I get too many emails.

I'm trying to I'm always trying to cut down my emails from elsewhere. But I but I get three really good news letters that I really value their writing because two of them are journalists and another one is just someone that I'm really into I like philosophy, sou he writes about philosophy, so I really appreciate what he writes. Now, of those, it's interesting, isn't it. Like one of them, I know has a well paid job, so it's not like this is his main things, so I don't feel like, not that he doesn't deserve it, but like he's got his other stuff going on, and so I'm like, well, I don't feel bad not paying for this because I know you've got loads ofbody elsewhere, right.

And there's another guy who was a providing a lot of value. He is an ex journalist. I'm sure he makes decent money as a consultant, but really I'm probably on the edge of subscribing to his stuff because I don't think he's got a lot of other income, but he's providing a lot of value. And then the other person, again, they've got a day job, so I know it's not a main thing for them.

It's like a passion thing for them, but it is for someone who writes a lot anyway. It's it's a great platform, isn't it. Like I write a lot of content, or I used to write a lot of content, and I still do a lot. There's not no reason why I couldn't just republish or repurpose some of the things that I'm putting on there.

And I like it that they've got the RSS feed, like you say, to the podcast, because I'm doing podcasts every week as well, so I have my profile with them has nothing on it other than a feed from my podcasts. So the podcast that we do will now beyond there after it goes out. So yeah, I'm going to I'm going to spend a bit more time on there, I think in the in the couple of weeks. So telling about audience as well.

I know that you've you've got that good following everywhere, but you've got a book coming out as well, so do you want to tell us about that? Yeah? So my book's called Yoga for Tired People, and it's all around how can we stop thinking about yoga as something that we do just on the mat, like for ninety minutes a day and instead think of it as something that we can weave into our lives. And it all came out of a burnout.

So I had a really bad burnout in twenty twenty two after trying to keep an in person studio alive during the pandemic, and I think about two years after that and just everything caught up with us and I had like a really bad burnout where I was having panic attacks. I was really like not well, and I had to stop my physical yoga practice because I just I just couldn't do it. And so I created a way of practicing that didn't And this is kind of where my substacks all come out of.

Everything's come out of this experience of having to build it back up, but from a place of like, oh my god, I am literally I do not have anything else to give. And so I'd been writing about that on my Instagram and on my substack, and I'd never really thought of, in true transparency, I really really wanted to write a book, but I didn't think it was going to happen. I thought I would have to I thought if I was going to write a book, it would have to be self published, which is a great way to do it, by the way, absolutely self publishing is amazing, lots of opportunities there.

But that was very much the angle that I thought, I was the route that I was going to go down. And in twenty twenty five, I wrote when I did my vision board for the year. So in like January the first twenty twenty five, I wrote write a book in twenty twenty five. And then in the February, I literary agent contacted us and said, I've been found, said I've been following you for ages.

Have like I've been following your stuff. I love the way you write. Have you ever thought about writing a book? And I thought it was a scam, because you know how you get all of those scam like press things where they're like, well, do you want to write a book?

And then they're like it's five pounds. I thought it was like that. So I rang up the agency and I said, it's Julie work for you, and they were like, yeah, no, she's a real person. She's in the office.

I'll get bring you back. And she was a real real person and she just really understood like she like she was great. She was like right, this is like she just understood my vision and was very open to the direction that I wanted to go in. And she had lots of not she's a very experienced literary agent.

She had she knew exactly where to like put to put us and she we wrote a book proposal together. I think it probably show us about six weeks to write the book proposal. I had to write ten thousand words of the book. I had to write like how the book was going to look, and then she took it out.

I can't remember the word. There was a word that she used lots where she took it out to editors, and then the editors that wanted to say yes came back. I then had to decide which publishers I wanted to go with, and I decided to go with Bloomsbury. So blooms and Bloomsbury have been brilliant, They've been so so good.

Again, the one of the reasons why I went with them is because they just like understood the book, like they just like understood my vision for it, and they like loved it, and they've been really good champions of the book. So I had six months to write it, which I thought was going to be really painful, but it wasn't. It was actually a really lovely process, especially because it was all like you were saying about write and like, even though I'd never really thought of myself as someone who could write a book, I write content all the time.

So like when they were like, oh, if you can write like five hundred words a day, and I was like, I normally write like way more than that. Like they were like, I know it's a bit pressurized, but if you write five hundred words a day, and I was like, that's like half a sub step post, Like that's fine, Like I can do that. And it's all stuff that I had written kind of before anyway, Like obviously the book is new, and it's like, but these ideas of stuff that I've been teaching for like almost like between fifty terrible with dates, you know, a long time.

Basically I've been teaching a long time, and these are all stuff. It's all all of the stuff is just a collation of stuff that I had written. So it's not as if I had to like go out and like research and like build something from a new thing. It was all stuff that like a new intimately anyway, And it was really I loved I loved the writing process.

I absolutely loved it. I also loved the editing process. Thought that was great. I thought it was going to be Everyone kept telling us it was going to be torturous.

Everyone was like, oh, are you all right, You're right, and I'm like, I had to speak to my editor a few times because I was like, I'm really enjoying this. Is there something wrong? Is there something wrong? And they were like they're like, no, no, not everyone hates it.

Like it's okay to enjoy it. And then yeah, So the point where I am now is it's been edited, it's had its copy editing, and now they're just making it. They're like doing the editing where they're like putting the words on the page and they're like saying like this illustration will go here, and this illustration will go there, and in March. We done.

Well done. That's really exciting, I think when you when you explain it like that, because like a lot of people, a lot of people say they want to write a book or they're in the middle of writing a book or whatever, and then a lot of those people will never finish that book. I'll never get a book published because then the thing of it is too big a thing. But you taking it down into five hundred words a day and committing to doing something every day if you can, or at least every week or whatever.

And then also the fact that you've already created lots of content, You've got a bank content to look back on and take bits out of makes it easier as well. And do you know what I'm sure you do. Do you know a guy called Seth Gordon? Oh what books?

I feel like I've seen his name on there. He's got he's had loads of books out. He's like he's like a marketing guru. But he's like he's been around a long time.

It's like he's another bold guy with glasses, but new New York guy. But he's done stuff like the Purple Cow. And oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, and all kinds of others. But what's great about Seth He has a blog like it's it's a daily blog.

And I've been reading his blog every day for about ten years. Right, So I get an email every single day from Seth's blog. Sometimes it's a paragraph and then it's two paragraphs. Sometimes it's like a much longer bit.

But why he's really clever at is I've read these blogs every day. Sometimes I've got a few to read it on because but then he put then he brings a book out, and as soon as he brings a book out, I buy the book. Right. But when I buy the book, it's basically all the blogs that he's written that year.

Up to that point, he's been writing what was going to be in the book, and he's been testing things out to see what response again, and then when it comes to putting the book out, it's just everything he's done. But what's also clear about it that is, even though I've read it, I'm enjoying reading it again because he's I've already got that sort of relationship with him, and it's it's so clever what he does. But yeah, I don't know anyone else it does it the way he does it. But it's such a smart, such a small way of doing it.

And I think people often think of like projects, it's like it's a blank slate each time, and so the project seem really big or like every time you pivot or every time you like bring some immunity business. You can be tempted to think of it as like a new thing, but actually it's usually it's just an extension of all of the stuff you've already been doing. So it's not as it's never as dawn as you think it's going to be. It's just the blank page.

I think sometimes really is like it is scary, like I remember so vividly, like because I asked my editor how long the book was had to be and she was like, oh, we want it between fifty and seventy thousand words, and I was like, will never happen, literally, will never happen. I was like, there's no way. I don't even know what that is. I can't like, I mean, I've got loads of books.

I read loads of books. I've got a few on medesk here. I'm always reading books. I love books.

But I don't know, I've got no idea how many words are in these books? Well, they said yeah. So they were all talking about so that the publishing world is something that I had no like, it's completely brand new to me. And this is really like I love.

I love anything where I get to have a little peek behind the curtain. So I have really enjoyed this process because I feel like I've had a little peek behind the curtain of the publishing world, which is like just delicious to me. But they were talking about like it's not necessarily the length how many words is in the book, It's more like how thick the spine is, because if it's too thick, then it won't sell. Because it'll cost too much to it won't It's not that it won't sell to the consumer, but it won't sell in the bookshelves shops because they'll be like, unless you're like Stephen King or like you know something that you could write anything and people would it's too thick.

It becomes too costly to print, so we're so we end up so and then if it's too thin people if people are like apparently people make decisions buying books. So if they don't know who the author is and they're buying a book, if the book's too thin, they're like, well, I'm not paying twelve pounds for that, yeah, because it's too thin, so they'll buy it. So they were like, it's less about how many words and more about like the width of the book on the shelf. And I was like, oh, that's interesting, but it's when she said that many words, I was like, there's just literally no way.

And then when I'd written so I think my book ended up being sixty four thousand words, and I was like, I could have written so much more, because it's it's less about writing the book and more about the process of you just get into that habit of writing every day and you get into that habit of editing it, and then as you edit it, you're like, oh, and then I could also say this and it and so it's not like one big project. It's like lots of little, tiny, mini mini bits of writing, which is something that we all do when we're making content all the time anyway.

Like if you can write a blog, you can write a book. If you can write a LinkedIn status, you can write a book. If you can write like, if you can consistently make content, you can write a book. Like you just can, because if I can do it, then you can, like anyone can.

Like it's genuinely if I can do it, anyone can do it. Job no, But it goes back to you. You've got that experience, and you've got the credibility and you've got the knowledge. It's a it's a it's packaging again, isn't It's like packaging it up in a way that appeals to not just the end user, but the publisher in the way that and the literary agent in a way that they can sell and like the topic.

You know, there's a lot of people who are struggling with overwhelm or burnout or they're feeling tired and they've got too much on the plate and whatever. So people are looking for answers and ways to manage aize better, the work life and the personal life better. So and if it's well being yoga helping people like I can totally see why it appeals to people. Why why it's why it's going to sell and going to do well, I'm sure.

But also again we talked earlier before we went live about I've spoken a few publishers over the years and some quite recently, and they're not just looking for a good idea, they're looking for people who have audiences to who can sell help sell who. So the fact that you vote again you've already put the work in, you've got that audience. That's another reason why that's valuable, because you've now got already made audience in a mailing list that you can tell people about your book as soon as it comes out, just like Seth Gordon has, you know, So yeah, exciting times, exciting times.

So this is this is just the first of many, first of them. I think this is that's one of the things of when you're thinking about building an audience, because I know when you're a small business owner, and there's absolutely loads and loads off. So I train yoga teachers and this is something that I speak to them about all the time because they're always really they're always really stressed about social media and they're always like, oh, I need to be built on social media. I need to be spending time on social media.

And I'm like, but if you if your end goal is to fill if your end goal is to fill a church hall on a Wednesday night, you don't you don't need social media, Like you're absolutely don't need it. But if your goal is to write a book and get a book published in a traditional manner, like people always say, like, I know that there's a lot of you know, maybe the world shouldn't be like this. There's a lot of contention about it, and I know there's a lot of people who are really upset about the fact that it is easier to get a book deal if you have a big audience.

But that is the reality of the world that we live in. So if you do want to and actually there is no reason why you need to traditionally publish it, you know, you can self publish and that a really good route as well. But if like I think it's we've never been in a space where it is so where it is so equitable, Like, yes, the people with the bigger audiences get the get more opportunities, but anyone can build that audience. All you need is an iPhone and knowing how it works.

So I think it's really exciting. Like, I think it's really exciting because if your goal is to get published, work at like spend your time working out how to do the steps to get somebody to want to publish here, I think that it's actually a really big there's a really big opportunity here for people because I think sometimes people hear, oh you got that because and it isn't just because I had a big audience. It's because I was saying something repeatedly that was then going to be like it's all been like it's all been reverse engineered because I knew that I wanted to want to do book, so it was like you put you put the things in place, and it might be that nothing ever comes out of it.

But if if the things are in place and it makes it much easier for people to find you to then you can get those opportunities from the things that you have put in place, and I know that a lot of people hear that and they can get discouraged and think, oh, but that means that I have to have a big audience. But one you don't need a big audience, You just need because the literary agent was like, she's only one person, like your editor is only one person who actually need you need to get yourself in front of those people.

But like, it's not like fifty years ago where it was it was all the deals were being done behind closed doors and it was all like it was who you went to school with, and who you like, who your dad was, And now it's like and what your second name was. Now it's like, well, can you pick up an iPhone? Can you learn it? Can you learn this skill?

And I think it is all a skill, Like you can learn to speak better on camera, you can learn how the algorithms work. And once you learn that, then it's the world's your oyster because you can then leverage that because the things that work on Instagram, work on substack, work on TikTok, work on YouTube. Like once you understand how that works, then you can replicate that that anywhere, And I think I think that's so exciting I think that's like the opportunity there, Like it's like I just love I love the Internet though, so I'm like, yeah, I think it's.

People. People get posted with algorithms and stuff. But the algorithms can be your friends, you know, like if you figure out, like you say had said earlier, how to package things up in a way that people want. Like I've got I said before, I've got a decent audience on some platforms and I've got a tiny audience and another That just means that I'm not packaging it up the right way for that platform.

I've got to figure out a different way of getting the message across for that audience over over there. But then it goes back to if people want a book, why do they want a book? Is it just an ego thing they just want to say they've got a book, or or do they want a book deal or to publish or to self publish a book cause they want that message to be spread. And then does it actually need to be a book?

Could it be a substock, could be an Instagram, could it be a LinkedIn? Doesn't really matter what format it is if your if your end goal is to reach lots of people, then you've got to put the effort in to reach lots of people in whatever way you can, and a book might not be the right way, but it's lovely if you can, if you value books and you and you're excited by books, because some people are buy booking and then they're not on substat and they're not on LinkedIn, and they're not on Instagram, but they but they love books.

So yeah, just horses for courses, but exciting. Hey, hey, enjoy you you're doing You're doing awesome stuff. So I'm really glad that you that you wanted to do this interview today. So for anyone that wants to find out a bit more about you, I know you.

You definitely encourage people to folly on LinkedIn trying to get that that audience around business owners or leaders or people who know someone that's maybe awesome at what they do where they're spending too many plates and maybe feeling a bit overwhelmed and need to find a way to to get a bit of energy back and so they can focus and a bit more productive. But well else, talking about sub stack, do you just go on subset and search. For yes, So it's Joe Hutten yoga on substacks.

So if you just look for Joe Hutton or yoga for type people, you'll finders brilliant. Okay, is there any other like I know the sub stack in Instagram and. Instagram, so yeah, John yoga on Instagram as well. Yeah, I'm actively.

The only one I'm not active on is LinkedIn. But that will change, Paul, you think. Today it's You're just gonna have an explosion of your followers after today, I'm sure, do you what? What other do you use?

TikTok or us. I am a prolific TikTok consumer creator, no cross cross posted on TikTok for a while, and I've got quite a lot of followers on TikTok. But but I was like, what is the end goal with this? And I just couldn't.

It was splitting my focus too much. So I TikTok is merely for my own view entertainment now, and I think it's important that you have parts of the Internet that are just for consumption too. Yeah, like I've I didn't know what to do with it, and then I was only on it because we don't what I was kept saying to the video is still looking as I'll go on it and it's not the right channel for me. But there's there's some good stuff on there.

It is entertaining, but there's actually some good entrepreneurs, business leaders on their share and information. But I'm on the verge of shutting it down or just coming off because it's it's it's just a distraction. Really, Yeah, it's definitely a distract. It's like attention definitely, But I like, I like I watch all the the movie reviews and the book reviews and the TV reviews and stuff.

So but I I think it's really important that like for me, I can't have my focus split too much. I think there was a point where I was like trying to do everything online and I just I just think, pick one or two channels that you're going to go all in on and just do that, because otherwise it becomes because at the end of the day, like you've got to think, why why are you running your business in the first place. Like most of the time we're running our businesses because we want to have a good quality of life, Like it's so that we can experience life.

And if you spend in your whole life on things that. Social media platforms just to keep you it's definitie yeah you want to if you can free up a bit of time in the real world with you, well, doing a bit of yoga instead of being on social media. Like doing a bit yoga and walk with a dog, my dog, I think need to walk soon. Just spend time with loved ones, you know, friends, love ones.

Yeah, watching the Telly. It's totally okay to just watch a bit of itally and pick up a hobby or do nothing at all. Read a book lovely awesome, right, thank you, Jill. I think we'll leave it there.

I really really enjoyed that. In good luck with everything. Thank you so much, Paul, it's been an absolute pleasure to be on Okay, thank you.