What makes the North East of England so special with David Simpson (englandsnortheast.co.uk)

Well, hello and welcome to the super Connector Show, where I'm delighted to be joined by David Simpson, who is the founder and owner of the England's Northeast dot co dot UK website and the Tangled Worm website as well. He's also a historian Northeast historian, a writer, a journalist and done all kinds of amazing things over the years as an actor and also a journalist and a drummer in a punk band as well. So we'll get into it at some point, David, David, how are you doing. I'm great, thank you, Yeah, good, good to see you.

Yeah, No, it's really really good to do this because I was looking before. We've definitely been connected online on LinkedIn at least for ten years since twenty six lee, where's that time gone? And it's ten years that I've been in business as well, so that that coincides nicely. But I think we'll might have been connected or met before that, maybe a year or two before that as well, Yeah I did, yeah, yeah, and maybe Twitter.

Maybe were connected on Twitter because I used to be very active on Twitter. Yeah yeah, yeah, that's maybe. But anyway, for whatever reason, we've we've sort of connected and been. Drawn to each other Facebook as well.

Yes, and we both share a strong interest in a pride in the Northeast of England. But you are obviously very very knowledgeable about so I was going to start with a big question with what is the Northeast. What do we mean by the Northeast. Well, the Northeast I think in the strictest sense it's going to be Northumberland, Tyneside, Wearside, County, Durham and Teesside, so everything sort of from Yorkshire up to the Scottish borders.

But there are some you know, there are variations on that. Sometimes North Yorkshire gets included in that as well. There are lots of cross connections into the Bottish borders. Obviously that's not Northeast England, but there are you know, lots of different regions of the border region as well.

I mean recently in a book on New York, I think it's quite a strong link between the Northeast history and New York, certainly the earlier history. But yeah, I think essentially it is it's the it's the Teas, the Tyne County, Durham, Northumberland. Yeah, good, good definition. I know when people often talk about the North but especially if they're not from the North of England.

They'll talk about the North, but what they mean is Manchester. But if you look on the Manchester south of it. I checked. I did some measurements and I can't remember the exactly were but I measured from Berwick upon Tweet to Sheffield Cathedral and I think it was then from Sheffield to Cathedral to I think it was Covent Garden or Trafalgar Square or something like that and at the same distances.

Okay, that sort of puts Sheffield right bang in the center of the country, which is really interesting because that would be seen as the North. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. The definitions are strange, aren't there.

It depends on who you're who you're talking to, doesn't it. Yes, so, but yeah, just generally speaking, in the North, you've got Yorkshire, You've got the Northwest, and you've got the Northeast. That's like the three of the North. But we're talking about you say, above Yorkshire, below Scotland, and not the not the Northwest, so not the Northwest.

Yes, again strong links to to Cumbria Valley for example. It's really strong link there. So yeah, a lot of yeah, there are crossovers. Yeah, essentially, you're right.

Have you I'm sure you've you've probably read it. So I heard about that. There's a good book came out a few years ago all about Northumbria, like the ancient Kingdom of Northumbria, which was north of the Humber and that. Yeah, ancient kingdom was everything north of the Humber, all the way into Scotland and across.

Into the There's been one or two Rollison and Nick Hyam's book. Yeah, there's one or two about Northumbria that and you're absolutely right. It's from at least the Humber. In fact, sometimes even further south into Lincolnshire.

Northumbria extended right the way up to Edinburgh, that is Northumberry, and then across to the west as far as places such as Witthorn on the Dumfrieshire coast and possibly even as far as Aysia. So Northumbria is the extent was huge. I think it didn't quite It never got further south than the Mersey, but it did actually reach the Mersey at one point, So the Mersey estuary was at one point the border of Northumbria. And yeah, I mean and of course in Yorkshire at the Yorkshire extends south of the Humber and see the Doncaster and Sheffield areas.

And interestingly, just outside Sheffield there is a a village on the suburbs of Sheffield called Door which is spelled d or r E and it was literally the doorway like a past a mountain passer between the kingdoms of Mercia and Northumbria. I find that absolutely fascinating. Yeah, amazing. I didn't know that.

I love stuff like that. Well. I love history, like studied history of day level and I still read a lot and just but but I'm fascinated by how history still influences things to this day as well, like regional identity and and why things have developed the way they have in terms of business and industry and culture and dialect and which is which is why I love your website. Your website is amazing.

Like so, England's Northeast dot co dot UK is. The England's Northeast dot co dot UK. Yeah, it's been it's been running since about is possibly the mid nineties, certainly at least as early as ninety seven. It's had a couple of name changes, so it's actually it's been around.

It was around before Instagram and Facebook and Wikahadia and Twitter and that kind of thing. But it's been called England's Northeast since two thousand and nine. Yeah, well, well, look, it's such a rich website. There's so much content on there for anyone who's from the Northeast or not from the Northeast and wanted to learn more about it.

O would anchorage everyone to take a look at it just for their own interest or they're studying as well. You know, there's so much information on there. So why did you start doing it? Why did he create it?

I don't know. I was quite interested in I started getting interested in regional history and the local history well when I was at school, because I actually I was born in Durham, but I actually grew up in the south of the region near Stockton. We were a couple of things that bearing the sort of stick in my mind. We used to travel up to my grandparents.

Both of my grandparents on both sides lived in Durham, in the Durham City area, so we would come through it to Durham, wud look around Durham. I'd hear the difference in the accent, which always really fascinated Because it was only a short I lived near Yarm And the other thing that sticks in mind from my childhood is the Stockton and Darlington railway celebrations back in nineteen seventy five, which was quite fascinating celebrating the original railway back in eighteen twenty five, and the cavalcade had children and that kind of thing.

So those are a couple of things that stick in my mind that sort of triggered my interest. But somehow I was always interested in things like Vikings and Anglo Saxons, and I remember when I was a strange kid. I remember I was about six fifteen maybe getting on a train from Eaglescliff where I lived, and going all way up to Newcastle because my dad worked for British Rails so it was a free travel. And get going into W.

H. Smith's in Newcastle and buying an atlas of Historical Britain in historical Outlets of Britain, and all I had was cash, and I just remember there was people queuing up behind and I was like handing over coins one by one and then travel back with this huge book, reading it on the train back to Dinners Stopped and where I lived. But yeah, I don't know, I've got that sort of interest and always fascinated by things like the Vikings and the Anglo Saxons and the Old kingdoms and the prehistory and that sort of thing, and then it's sort of then I started to develop interest in sort of later periods as well.

Yeah, well it's it. I think you can't help. But like if you, if you're from this area, there's so much history and so much variance in the different towns and villages and cities across the region. So if you I'm always surprised by people who just stay in their local area and they never venture into the next and there's like, it's doesn't it long to get from one place to another?

And it's such an exciting place. And I definitely see myself as a Northeasterner rather than just being from one particular area. I remember standing on the top of Durham on that note, standing on the top of Durham Cathedral tower talking to somebody from Newcastle and they were quite flabergasted that they could see, you know, they could see Tyneside from there, and that it was so close and they almost felt uncomfortable with it. It's kind of that, I don't know what it is that I think that people do sort of stick to their own rivers.

And an interesting observation is that in the Northeast you have got the three main rivers, and then in Northumberland you've got individual rivers as well, whereas if you go into Yorkshire, Yorkshire is like one massive floodplain which then all the rivers feed the Humber. And then you've got the North Yorkshire Mowers, which sort of occupies a large part of the coast, and then the Yorkshire Walls in East Yorkshire and there's only the River esc at Whitby that has that independence.

So for example, the Tea's is an independent river. Some people say it was obviously half yorkshirecause it did face the Yorkshire Yorkshire Bank, but you know the Eure and wensley Dale and that kind of thing, the Swale, they all ultimately joined the Hummer. In fact, if you go down to Stoke on Trent and into Nottingham, the Trent is feeding the Humber as well. It's huge.

Yeah, So that sort of river catchment area stretches really deeply into the Midlands, and of course I mentioned the North Yorkshire Mowers, and then you've got the Pennines and the chieviots, and they all sort of enclose the northeast really as well, except the Darlington area where it merges with the the the Vale of York and the Vale of Mowbray. It is kind of self contained really, So I think that's part of the reason that you've got these strong individual identities, almost tribal identities, which is I.

Hadn't thought about that. I studied geography as well as did the university, so I'm interested in all of this sort of stuff about how how the physical geography can can impact people's movement and populations develop. So yeah, that never I've never heard anyone describe it like that, but I think, yeah, it's all. Another thing is if you if you look at the collieries, the coal field and the wagon ways and that, and the wagon ways that link to the two rivers, so you kind of got this sort of area of development around the time.

So I think that that the northwest Durham, like say the Stanley area in particular, has a much stronger allegiance to Tyneside. You'll find a lot of Newcastle, I mean, you've get Newcastle United supporters across the whole a county Durham even though sort of Sunderland historically County Durham Town certainly in that area is a very strong allegiance. I mean you get Newcastle supporters in bishop Auckland and you know all over Sunderland is maybe more of an allegiance dow the East Urham coast, and I think it might.

I mean, I don't know. And if you look at the movements, I'll do a bit of family history as well, and that gives you some fascinating insights into the way people move move around and put and Tea side is a bit different because it lies outside the coal field, so you don't quite have that that mining influence on the dialect. So although they had the ship building and the and the and and all the industries associated with that, the engineering and so so on on Tea side, it wasn't in the in the coal field.

Hartlepool wasn't within the coal field. That was a call port m and I think that gives it a slightly different identity. But there are features, for example, on Middlesbrough in Middleburg they say how he rather than how he? You know, you do hear that a lot, so it's something that you know that there are all sorts of different variations to the region.

Love it, love it. Yeah, I know that's really good because you say the physical geography, but also the trade routes and yeah, and the natural resources in in an area have have obviously influenced where people locate themselves and where settlements develop over time. So yeah, if you've got if you're from a local area and in the trade route, are going in one direction, you're going to have stronger connections there to someone else where you'd have no trade routes or even if your a rival, a competitor for resources in industry.

Yes, and I think that's still that's still having an impact to this day, isn't it. Local identity, local identities. Yeah, I mean obviously that the obvious one is the new Castle Sundland rivalry. Which rivalry but also rivalry as well, that's right.

Yeah, I mean there was the station i think in the middle certainly before the eighteen fifties, probably going back to the early to the late eighteenth century. The collier ships from the time were called Jordie's as Jordie's and the ones from the Weir for some reason we're not quite sure, Well, we're called Jamie's I didn't know that it possibly had something to do with the Jacobite rebellion. I don't know, but it's an interesting fact. But yeah, there was a bit of a rivalry between as a shipbuilding centers as well.

That the term Mackham, I think possibly goes back a lot longer, a lot further than we actually realize, because there's references. There's a chap called William Fordye so in his history of Durham, in his section on Sunderland, he says that, and he's writing in eighteen fifty four and he says at the end of the last century or so, he's gone back to the to the eighteenth century. He said that there was a gibe about we side where it was said that they could either makeships and obviously Mackham comes from the word make in some way or another, or they could build ships.

And what the distinction was is it was like bargaining. If you wanted a ship built up, because you're talking about wooden sailing ships. If you wanted a ship built on the sly at a cheap bargain price with no guarantee that there were going to be quality, then that's essentially making a ship. But if you wanted one properly built, it would be built.

And I think that's probably related somehow or other links in with the term Mackham, and it almost certainly originated on Tyne side because it's a bit of a kind of a put down. It's saying, oh that they're they're they're building ships on the cheap. Can you see what I'm saying? Because there was intense rivalry between that the ship builders because Daniel Defour, you know, as in Robinson, Crusoe and moll Flanders, he obviously spent a lot of time on times and he lived in Gateshead.

M hm, you lived on the just on the Gates side of the time. Didn't he a. Plaque there isn't there? Yeah?

And he said, oh when he observed they build ships here to perfection. He's talking about the time. So there was a lot of pride and there would have been rivalry as well, because you know they're competing. It was it was like a competitive business.

Interesting you can go in the Civil War as well. So what are you? I know you you grew up in where you were born in Durham? Is that right?

I was born in Durham as a child. You were in Chestley Street. I don't remember it. I was like, it's on my birth certificate.

It's I have Chestley Street railway station on my birth certificate because my dad who worked for British Rail I think I think he was working at Greensfield that Gates said, which is the engine you know the railway works there and they actually they got a British Rail house which was the railway station house on the railway platform at Chesley Street. So that's where I spent the first few months of my life. I don't remember it, but I was born Durham City, on the outskirts of Durham City.

Like the Stevenson's you know they in Wylam, growing up and seeing the oh yes, yeah, influenced by the the horse of whatever pulling the carts, but on the on the early sort of path. And the little cottage there isn't. There and thinking there must be a better way. And then then then he got into the into the railway industry and amazing inventor and industrialos.

So yes, maybe maybe subconsciously that's influenced you love well, the railways obviously and the ads and interesting in the industry and the in the in the wider region. But I was looking at you. It's really interesting. I think that you're born in Durham, grew up in spent time in Chester Street, then you moved to Stockton.

Then you were educated in Durham sixth Form Northumbra UNI and then you were all over the region like Darling to Gateshead and Durham. Yeah, at a big time Inndland as well. So you yeah, the whole of the region. You have several jobs, several jobs in the Sunderland area.

I worked in Darlington for the Norther and Neck over fifteen years. I worked at I worked in the office right next to Sin James's Park at one stage, which was quite quite nice because it was a great great social life after work on Friday evening because it was right in the center of the city where else have worked. Yeah, Sling a few times Gates said, you mentioned it. That was quite a while ago.

Get the garden festival. Yeah. My first job was in a railway station and then my first job was as a minor at Bemish Museum. That was the very first job I had was a part time at Beanish Museum.

It was minor, and then the railway station. So that was a sort of a history related as well. I can't get away from those railway stations. Whether at the everywhere on there.

So it's no, it's it's it's great. I mean it's a it's a obviously well are you do you? Just do you think of yourself as a as a Maco mora Jordie. I don't think it was either of those.

I'm from Durham. Really, I think it's a difficult. I mean, if he asked me, what if you said watch your football team, I would I would very happily say I'm a Mackham because I do support Sunland, but I'm not really. I think it possibly partly to do with when I was brought up.

My dad never mentioned Newcastle. It was not one of these or were hit them and all that kind of thing. I never got that, and partly obviously because I brought I was growing up Amongst Borough fans as well, and I never really felt any. I mean the first match I actually went to was a I can't remember when it was, but it was at Middlesbrough and it was like a Willie Madron who's played it was like a testimonial for him.

And then the second match I ever went to again was at Asam Park and that was with my dad and we were both supporting Sunderland. We were in the Middlesbrough end with our next door neighbor. And I've only been to Saint James's Part once and that was with when I was at college with some friends. And I do remember standing in the q outside Saint James's Part with my friends who are like mature students, proper Jordan's from like Frenham and Arthur's Hill and places like that, and there was a guy in front of me, very animated sun and this and the Sunland and the Macams this, and the mac was that, and Ma and my twommates with me, they turnaround and looked at me and they went, he's a Macam.

And the guy said, oh, not a fence mate of really nice And then I sort of this is in the old Gallagher again, standing in the gallery with these two guys and every now and again he's a Macam and I'm just like Pa and I you know, I enjoyed it and I don't feel any I'd like to see all the No. I'm really disappointed that Middlesborough didn't get promoted. I like to see all three. I think if you look at the big successful football teams in this country, they all have they all have huge rivals, Man United and Liverpool, Man City and Man United, you know, I mean, I all those are huge, populous regions when you compare to the Northeast and all that the London rivalry, and I think, really, I think a key factor is and I know sometimes the defeat, you know that you can get defeated by by being beaten by your local rivalry, that rivals.

But I think rivalry is important for success and I think that's why I always like to see Obviously I've got a preference for my own particular team. I'd like to see all three Northeast teams. And I'm not going to get into this. Middlesbury isn't the Northeast because it is, It's Yorkshire as well, but it's its history is so tied to the Northeast region and obviously it's got its own identity, so that that that's that annoys me when people, you know, want to see the other teams relegated.

I don't understand why, but I just think that's a bigger picture. Yeah, no, I agree, I think I think there's a strength and a weakness to it, you know, because I think this stuff does matter locally, Like if you look locally, it's really that pride in your in your local area and your village or your town or your city that that is that is a really good thing. But he's a bigger, bigger picture if we're talking nationally or internationally, it's potentially personally. I think it's potentially held the Northeast back that that interregionalvalry where it's not it doesn't come across as a joined up region necessarily outside of the area.

It's a really interesting point. And I think if you compare it to New Yorkshire, Yorkshire is a very strong brand. It's a single name, it's an entity, it's a name, it's a brand. Northeast is a little bit vague.

And I think we were talking, we're having a chat before we started podcasting, and you mentioned like north you go to Scotland and Northeast. It depends where you are. Yeah, yeah, I think you said in London that similarly. So it's it's a little bit because I mean I called it England's Northeast because it was available.

That's because it was I mean I actually have the domain in England's north, so I could actual we extend it in the future. But England's Northeast, I don't know. It's just specific because it's not the Northeast in the United States. It's the northeast in England, and I think the Northwest, I think the reason that brand is is is strong in its own will, though obviously there's a lot because there's so many cities and huge towns there that that sort of more intense rivalry is not so significant.

It doesn't hold it back because Liverpool its huge, and I know we're not just talking about football, we're talking about the economy and that kind of thing. You've got the two football teams, but you've got Blackburn and Preston and Burnley and Bolton. You know, there's so many towns and cities there, so closely close together. And I think that and it's just the most populous region in the North as well, which is huge, bigger than several European countries, you know.

So yeah, I think it's Yeah, it's an interesting in question, interesting conundrum, isn't it. Why is it? Why does the Northeast sometimes feel like it's held back a little bit? Yeah, yeah, well so when was this ten years ago?

Yeah? Well ten years ago. Because I've had my own business for ten years. I spent a bit of time working for a government organization called Tech North and that was all about It was set up to promote the whole of the North of England as a great place to start and grow tech business.

So it was Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield Hall that was they were the cities and it was loosely connected to the Northern Powerhouse connection. Remember that there was a Yeah, it was a George Osborne. When did you find that? Did it well?

From a Northeast point of view? So why I was drawn to it because I was peas to that. I'd spent about fifteen years helping people start and grow businesses in jobs where I was paid to do that across the UK. But I was always very like focused on the Northeast personally and doing a lot of voluntary work in my spare time and just doing anything I could to try and like champion the Northeast and an interest in local history and regional identity and stuff like that.

So when an opportunity came up and join this team and the team was going to be made up with people from across the North, and I was like, well, we need a Northeast representative in this team, so I'm I'm going to go for the So my role there was Community Engagement and Partnerships manager for the whole of the North and a brilliant job. Like loved it, so happy that I got it right, but I had to kind of not fight for it, but I had to really like prove my worth, improve my understanding of the North and and why I thought this is such a good thing.

But I remember part of the recruitment process there was like a selection board or some some advisors who were deciding who should get being this team. I remember this guy who had known for a while messaged me privately said why how gonna cope with going to Manchester and being met with a bunch of angry man monks who don't want I don't want Jordie there. And I was just like, well, all right, okay, well, and then I had to explain why I thought I'd be fine in that situation. And but it was interesting how even back then there was a feeling that Jordie shouldn't be in Manchester or then so anyway, great great job.

But people hated the phrase Northern Powerhouse right because the sword is as a patronizing imposed on the North by the London loss. But they love the idea behind it of a more devolution and autonomy and decision making power. So but literally everywhere I went people would say, we hate the Northern Powerhouse, but we love the idea of what of what technolos and what you're trying to do and the team. Yeah, but a big yeah, but a bit A big part of it was about trying to encourage more collaboration within cities and between cities to shine the light and all the great stuff happening across the North of England, but also to be respectful of the unique differences between the different areas and the and the weakness of the of the of the areas.

But even back then you could see that Manchester was starting to become like the London of the North, which I think that they have and. It's got a huge confidence and swagger about it, hasn't It. Is definitely a thing, Yeah, definitely yeah, But do you think about. It's just just a side one of the I was talking to a guy the other day who's a young lad that I know, and he's a Manchester City support, he's from Manchester, that he lives in the Northeast.

And I said to him, were celebrating the last night, this is the after the after the Cup and he said, nah, I said, do you want to sell and he said literally, he literally said, it's just the faup many times they won it. And I thought that's sad because this was the this was the you know, the premier competition, you know, the covered competition that people want to wanted to win. And I think that's a really sad thing. Whether it's people get complacent when they've had a lot of success, but any Northeast club would be well we've seen it somewhere, Like any Cup win in the Northeast.

It is a major deal compared to the Northwest. Whether maybe yeah granted and that expectancy that they're going to be successful, that man Union swagger or the Liverpool conference. There there were so many connections, I mean similarities between the between the regions. I mean, Manchester City's football stadium is built on the side of a colliery, isn't it just like like the Stadium of Light.

I didn't know that. I think that's I think that's correct. And obviously Liverpool report, I mean there was a difference, I suppose because because Liverpool was more west westerly oriented and you know, towards the towards the Americas and so on. Obviously Newcastle the European trade and the London trade and so on the same Sumberland.

But yeah, there are so many connections. But I mean, obviously the population is bigger in the Northwest, but so yeah, I think that I think we do get forgotten about sometimes, think we're often in after thoughts in the Northeast. Frustrates me regularly where you see government reports or some of the think tank or whatever where he talks about the North and then the Northwest in Yorkshire. Yea, you've just completely ignored the Northeast reeding.

So even even in that role that I was doing for Tech North, regularly felt like I had to say, don't forget the Northeast, you know, don't forget don't forget tea side, don't forget like Sunderland and oh yeah, okay, we'll include that. But you needed someone to be champion and but you've. Got the downside. I think what you touched earlier on is he because you've got that into the rivalry within the region, between the different regions.

I mean we've got this, you know so well. In recent times Tees Valley has become a region. It's been described himself as a region on a par with the Northeast, which is which is interesting. And obviously we've got like got the Northeast may have got kimmginn is you know, covering the Durham up to up to the County Durham from barn the Castle right way up to Berwick.

I think it is. But yeah, you're still he's still got that sort of that sort of into that rivalry between the two the different rivers and the different counties, which is quite deep rooted and it's I think sometimes that can be a disadvantage when you compete team with regions like the Northwest where there are rivalries between the cities, but they do seem to have a stronger front. Yeah, it was you. Know better than me on that.

Well, I'm only hearing from the second hand, but like definitely back then I was asking questions about this like why why is Northwest doing so well? And even they have the Greater Manchester Combined Authority, which Liverpool is part of Greater Manchester, right, But there it was explained to me that the why Manchester has done so well, or one of the reasons that the leadership at the time, the leaders of the Greater Manchester Authority, even though it was a labor led authority, they were totally fine with getting involved with the Conservative government.

So even though it was in Northern Palace was a Conservative thing, the leadership of Greater Manchester could see the benefit of getting behind this. Yes, and they would. It was described me they had that arguments behind closed doors and like you say, they would, they would show united front as Greater Manchester. They might have that arguments or disagreements privately, but publicly it was a it was a united front and been from that.

Whereas the Northeast you would have the seven Northeast not not including the Tea Side area, you'd have the north of the Northeast seven councils would argue between themselves and not have a joined up approach, which made it difficult for London and the central government to engage with them. And then you talked about devolution there when when Teeside was first well you have Greater Manchester and then Side in other areas. But when the option of devolution first came about, the seven councils only the three three of them said they wanted it and four of them said they didn't.

So yeah, Newcastle, north Tynside, Northumberland went for it. And then Gateshead Sunderland, South town Side Durham. Said, interesting because what you've essentially said is historically that the north Tyn Side Newcastle, Northumberland. And I know Newcastle, it's it's here and there is Northumberland, isn't it?

And Gates said South Tyn Side Durham is County Durham, which is interesting. So that's quite a deep rooted and I know some people might take me, well, Newcastle was a county in its own right, it was, but obviously culturally it was sort of interconnected with Northumberland and you know even part of Newcastle was within Northumberland. But yeah, but we've got but we've got we've got the Northeast combined auth already now, so the seven candles are wearing together. It's being led by Kim McGinnis and I do think she's doing a very yeah, but it is it is.

There's still an issue there about how we present ourselves or promote ourselves nationally and internationally. Do you remember, I'm sure you do remember, but when you had one Northeast the regional development. Yes, I remember it well, yeah, yeah, and the campaigns and when you know, when you go go on trips to London and you'd be on the underground and you'd see these huge banners on the underground with Northeastern scenes. I can't remember specifically which ones there were, you know, with really high quality photography.

I thought that was amazing. TV ads as well. You know, it was because the campaign was passionate people, passionate places. I think it was brilliant campaign.

Yeah, it would. Still talk about that now because it was. I thought it was good. But the only thing I thought was passionate people.

Passion But you could get passionate people from anyway. It's not that's not speak about the Northeast like although we wanted to think it is. It's like, I think that's true, but it's but at least it was united. Was a big campaign for the whole of the region, spend lots of money and I did definitely grab people's attention that it was did a national campaign.

So people have been saying people still regularly say, oh, we need something like passionate people are passionate places, and they have never come up with anything. I haven't said that. I mean, if you're trying to think back before that era, that there was a lot more negativity, and I think that there's a lot there was a lot of confidence grew in the region from them, and I don't know what there's any sort of in prolical evidence for it, but I think that's the impression that I got.

I mean, I mentioned that I worked at the Gate of Garden Festival and that sort of the Angel of the North sort of came from that as well, because of you all the sculptures that had there and stuff, and the redevelopment of that area of Gate Seat. I think we're just starting to I think we're just falling back on it a little bit too much. And I love to see that the you know, the images of the Key Side and all the developments there, and you get them constantly regurged. No, that's not that's not a very good way saying it, constantly recycled in the of the new.

Isn't this fantastic? Isn't this fantastic? It's almost like this. It's like a sort of self reassuring we are actually really quite good, we are a great I think there's there's also there's lots of other places across the region, you know that there's lots of other things to be proud of.

I think there's still a little bit of a lack of imposter syndrome. Is that, if that's a fair way of putting it, when it comes to the Northeast, it's still don't quite believe in themselves. And I think that's why sometimes we do fall back on the petty politics or the petty regional localism, you know, within the region. I think I think, I think it's just just an educational thing.

It's just sort of educating yourself and thinking about how you think about the region. Maybe maybe, I mean, you don't you might not agree with what I'm saying. No, I do that, you know. One of the many reasons why I wanted to start my own business was to play a small role in trying to boost confidence and celebrate what was going on in the region.

Obviously, I wanted to be self employed, I wanted to do my own thing, but like I could see that there was a need for more boosting and celebrating and promoting of regional businesses, which which is what I've done for longer than ten years, but definitely ten years. My whole business has been about that. Definitely the events like the the small events and the big events, the five day Newcastle Starter Week festival, which then was renamed UK Startup and Scale of Week. It was all about shining light on on why the region was such a great place to start grow business.

I think it's a it's an ongoing thing. You have to just keep at it to to educate and inspire local people. Yeah, and national and in the national people, that's right, and I think I think that's something. Obviously my passion is the heritage side, so I'm interested in the business side, but I don't know so much about that from you know, obviously that's your area.

But I think our heritage is sometimes I don't think we realize how significant it is. I mean, just something as simple as I mean just that you know what the Tangled were and I do books. I do print. This is like the borders print and just looking at the you know, the names, and I do sell these and sometimes to the United States.

Look at the names on the border evers. You know Armstrong's and Routledge and Ridley and Robson and Armstrong and Milbourne, you know that kind of thing. It's just these names, Scott Elliott, these names sort of permeated into the court field so that you find them right away across the region, right down to Teesside and beyond. But there are people all over the world, Australia, New Zealand, you know, the Americas, Canada, United States that have these surnames and have this link to the region and the borders.

And I just think and also if you can develop this identity that this this region is, I don't think it's stretching the truth to say it does have a particularly distinct identity that's quite different to most regions other than perhaps the Southwest. It just have a really strong identity that's almost it's got things in common with Scotland and even Ireland in its in its identity that it doesn't make it a little bit different. And I think that's something that we are part of England.

Obviously, there's no there's there's no question about that. But there's also something quite distinct about about this region. And I don't say that from a a biased point of view. I've said that from from an historical point of view, there are all kinds of historical differences that make the region unique.

I mean, you would be familiar with the Dan Jackson book, you know, the Northumbrians that that sort of touches on on on this distinction. And I think it could also be careful not to to over egitt, you know. But I think at the same time, it is the cultural features that we have, the castles, Bambrough Castle and Linda's Farn, you know, Durham Cathedral, Hadrian's Wall. But the stories associated with them, I just think they're they're just fantastic.

They're unique, and there's there's so many strong themes that that the railway era, you know, the development of the railways and the and the industrial developments that took place here which are quite extraordinary. It's an extraordinary story and there's some great things happened in Manchester. It's also extraordinary things happened there. But I just think we need to shout about it a little bit more and I think we've we've lost that a little bit recently.

I think we have it might be wrong with the impression I get. Yeah, well, people. People regularly say, we've got got to shout about it a bit more. And I think there's like there's a bit of it going on, but it's not like collective or it's not a united story that's being told, or like if if everyone gets buying the same of stories and really believes in it.

But it's say marketing, classic marketing, that's all my background. It's it's like, yes, you can shout, but are people listening? Do you know what I mean? Like if you're saying the wrong things right, it's not landing, then you've got question or we are we doing the right things?

Are we are the right people doing it as well? So I'd like to see more collaboration and in the connection between the people that do have the expertise in marketing and the people that have the knowledge. Maybe people like myself, they can see things that maybe that they don't see. It can be just little things, or it can be the bigger picture as well some of the things I've just mentioned there.

But it's yeah, I don't know. I think we could have a much stronger international identity and so and again I'm talking from a cultural and his histop history heritage point of view, I should. Say, yeah, well, well I'm hoping I'm hoping that Kim mcguinnis and the Northeast combine. I thought, he's gonna listen to this and watch this and and hear you and and and get you involved in in some as a as an advisor or a consultant, and and others as well, in any politicians as well, or counselors.

You know, it's it's this stuff is important that That's why I love history, because you can learn from the past which can influence the present and the and the future. And I suppose the only thing I'd say is I think maybe as a region where we are gone a bit too much about the past without talking about the current in the future, I'm not the same, don't. It's like, yeah, when I when I developed the England's Northeast website, what I didn't want it to be was lots of old photographs of the industry and nostalgia because obviously, if you if you're if you're producing photographs of the ship building on Tyne Side primarily going to be all streets, it's primarily going to be an interest of people in those areas, in that particular area.

I wanted to show to use photographs of the region as it is today, so showing the beauty of the region, the beauty of the buildings. Yeah, I mean that's with brand new, with modern, up to day photographs. But say, hey, there's a story behind this. There's a great story behind this.

Yeah. Yeah, it's some great photos in this. Yeah last year and I've just had a new one in that series on York which is the same sort of format. And yes, so it is it.

That's what I wanted to say. Look, this is what we have. This beautiful valley, this beautiful castle has a story behind it. This these this beautiful street scape in Newcastle has so many stories behind it, you know.

And rather than this this, this is when all more of flat cap And I mean that's great. I'm not saying I'm not interested in that. That's fantastic, but I was thinking of it more of a point of view of promoting the history, but saying, actually, this is very much a part of our present and it's something to be proud of, not not. It's not just nostalgia.

Do you think you think what I'm saying, Yeah. I think I think you're doing I think you've done a really good job of that with this book as well, because there's there's plenty of books about the history and all photos black and white, and like, I mean, I love all that sort of stuff, and I've got plenty of my dad, but this book, I hope he's not watching this, so he does like watching my YouTube videos. So anyway, this is this is a this is a Father's Day present for him that. I'm I didn't sign it for you, but he loves books and he loves local history, and I'm sure he's going to really enjoy.

And and I'm secretly hoping that once he's finished it, he can you can me have it as well. I'm thinking ahead, but I think, yeah, the reason I mentioned that is I have heard a lot of the times in the past. I've heard politicians or public figures where they talk about the past, but the knowledge of that what's going on right now or what's on the horizon is pretty weak. And I've even heard this in Liverpool as well.

I remember the the Mayor of Liverpool going to an event and he was just he was good, but he was just talking about the glory days of the shipbuilding and and and he had he had nothing to say about Liverpool. Now, yeah, like that's a shame that because there's a lot to say that. So that's the only thing I was like, yes, definitely celebrate the past and and. I did just as an aside.

I did a few years I work for a company called my World and we did these little books and I did one called Labut Jordie which was quite popular and what one labout Newcastle and we did a little follow up. I did one. I did some research into the Liverpool. It's some fascinating I've been in Liverpool a couple of times and just the street scape and the city skip.

I mean, it doesn't have that the antiquity that Newcastle has got some splendid buildings. There's a lot of great Georgian buildings and obviously you've got the Riverside buildings, that the liver Of Building and you know that, and the Three Graces. So that's absolutely fat, fabulous city. And I did one called All about Scouse, which was quite interesting to see some of the origins of that and the influences.

So, I mean, I'm interested in the wider north, but obviously my main passion is in the northeast. But I think it's always important to go and get other perspectives and go and visit other regions. And I've traveled all over Britain. I mean I've been to most of the cathedral cities in Britain, in most counties and lots of and I think it's important to get a different perspective obviously when you travel abroad as well, it gives you in site into what makes your your region unique and what makes it different, what makes it interesting, and what has in common with other places.

So and I think sometimes the Northeast can be a little bit introspective and not really have a you need something to compare it to. Really just don't know when you think about that. But no spot on. Yeah, I think sometimes it's hard to put your finger on what makes the Northeast the Northeast.

But until you've moved out of the area, and. Then the air a mystery though, isn't it. Yeah, you know it's Yeah, So if you if you go to Yorkshire, you go to the Northwest or any other parts of the UK, you realize how different they are to what we've got in the in the Northeast. And so I do think that's important, definitely.

I mean recently I mean it's only last year that I really explored whole properly for the first time. Fascinating place. And again you you can see differences and you can see similarities in the history and you compare to you look at the you know, the maritime aspect of it and the Trinity House and there was simply I can see similarities with Newcastle. In fact, I found quite a few similarities when I was writing about York.

I can seek all sorts of connections to the Newcastle similar aspects because I was in Newcastle as the city walls obviously not quite as extensive as as as in in York. And I can see connections with Durham and so on. So it's interesting to get other perspectives. Because there's a good friend of mine called Tony Robinson ob who was I don't know if you knows it, like, yes, I've seen.

And he's not black added guy. I know you mean, yes, he's an amazing guy. He's written a few books, but he's he's just a massive champion of micro businesses and small businesses everywhere. You used to work in corporate and then he realized like that wasn't for him, and he wanted to be a champion of the little guy or little girl, you know.

So I anyway is he's from Hull, and he once told me that sometimes people from Hull called themselves Northeasterners, Yeah, which I thought was because they like, if you look at northeast of Yorkshire, that that's they're out on a limb and they often don't see themselves as part of the wider Yorkshire. Yeah, they're like out on the on the edge of East Ride and and they have often stronger connections to Europe and the rest of the world because of the port and the international trade.

And I guess, oh, I guess probably historically there's a lot of connections. People who encountered people from the Northeast coast would be encountering people from whole and you know in places on the East Anglian coast as well, and you know Lane Pinklin, that kind of thing. So yeah, well. You would have had all the ship on that.

That's interesting. I didn't know that that the regards sometimes you guard themselves as the Northeastern that's fascinating, really interesting hole and website. But it extends a little bit, yeah, but it's it's still the main focus is the Northeast. Yeah.

Well your website is brilliant, honestly, Like I've been enjoying having it, like reminding themself what was on it, and I've been You've got your YouTube channel, but your your website the main thing. I'll tell you something really, I love your timeline that you've got on the yeah by. Yeah, yeah, that's fun. Yet it's an interact.

You click on the actual graphic and it will take you to a particular time. It's really really good. And then as well as your website, you've got you mentioned it a couple of times, you've got your Tangled website, which is more products. Yeah, the main focus of the Tangled worm is that I've already shown you that border Reavers map quite big to fit onto the A.

Two maps which are the main line of what I what I sell exactly is one on Viking Northumbria and then I've got one on that don't know that's working, but I'm showing you on the screen what is that one that's a civil war and then Northeast Collieries I think I have as well, which is that's one? Then Northeast Collieries they're sort of in forour maps. Really, there's several others. The first one I did was Rude Placed Rude and Peculiar Place later, which was really just to kick it off, really just to get a bit of attention.

But yeah, I think that's the main line, and then I'll do the books and I do the other thing. The other products tend to print on demand products, but the maps are the main the princes, the main features. There's a there's a little one here I do as well. I don't sell so many of these.

That's a Jordie phrasers talking about which I have a YouTube feature called Jordie Frasers Jordie Frasers, which is a bit of a pun where I talk about dialect. You might want to have a look at that. I don't know what I was just watching before. Jordie accent and from from Duran probably still got that slight te side interest.

And my ex wife probably influenced my speech as well because her mum was an elocutionist from Northampton, so that was That's probably influenced me a bit. But I don't have a particularly strong accent. But I like doing accents. I like I like doing the impersonations and I love that the regional variety accents that we have in the history behind them.

You know that and the burr in Lancashire or ether say Bernalley, you know Bernalley, that kind of thing, and and then you get that's in the Southwest as well, and that Northumbrian r which is almost impossible to do. It's fantastic. I mean, that's that's part of our culture. And I think that they are we're losing them a little bit.

I think they're starting to get a bit watered down and they're not quite as strong as I do. Like listening to all dialect tips from say, from the early early twentieth century fascinating. Well, I'm subscribed to your YouTube channel. I was.

I was enjoying the Jodie dialect video before, and yeah, it's it's like I can hear different accents, but I'm not very good at doing them. No, Like I can spot that it's a different, but I can't do a different accent. But I think, I don't know. You might think I've got a strong accent, but depends on.

You've got just you've got it. I mean straight away you've got a tin side accent. It said issue right and grew up in Gates said, consider Jordi but at northeastern end. But but I live in Sundland now, so yeah, I can.

I mean even in Sunderland that people go that ignoice it when they's or Durham. It's like a macam accent. It's a Sundling accent and it's not I mean I can when I'm working in Durham, I can immediately tell us someone from Sunderland. And there's also there's variations across Sundland, just across the city.

And know not I don't mean like Hotly Spring and the other part of the external areas within the city of Washington, I mean the actual Sunderland itself. There are lots of variations across that. I'm in Hendon, you know, the different parts of the city have variations and age strot with they say hardly you see, I can't quite got the sound of it, but they sometimes drop the chent sun, which they don't tend to do in ty inside. And obviously that old cool, cool and cool thing you go to school or you go to school, you know, that's the even within the cities.

There are lots of variations, and I think there's a huge difference in County Durham between the South Durham accent and the North Durham accent, particularly Northwest Durham. I think that's and Teasdale has a distinct accent which it seems to have a lot in common with accents in Cumbria. It is, it's fascinating. It's not always obvious or clear why those why we get those variations, and I think that's quite fascinating.

It's interesting to speculate. Yeah, great, well your website goes into a lot of encourageable to check that out again. But the town Worm again, we'll just talk a bit more about that. You're talked about your posters, which look amazing, Like I love the look at them, and I have a geographer.

I love maps and my das look at your maps. I love books. I love history. Really, I really really like your your other products that I like your hoodies that you've got, oh yeah, yeah yeah, I like your doormats, your coasters.

Your modes station yeah, there's those are print on demand goods, which I do through print on demand publishers. And the difference between those and the maps and the books is that the maps and the books are published it's obviously you know, in in in numbers to print rather than through print on demand. But yeah, it's it's it's fun to do and I need to add some new things as well. I'm to look at doing some new things.

They do take time, obviously, and that's the thing. It's getting balance in the time, and you never know what's going to sell them what isn't It's like you can do your research until you actually put it out there. You just don't know, do you know. I think I think you've got a really good, strong range of products already.

So that's one of the reasons why I wanted to do this with you the days, because I think more people need to know that you're there and what you've already got. So anyone who's proud of being from the Northeast, so they've got family from the Northeast, of friends or the Northeast. We've got Father's Day coming up as well, you know, in June's If anyone stuck for a product or a lovely gift to give to their father, definitely check out your website. So it's tangled worm dot com.

Yes, tangle worm dot com. Tangleworm dot com is the shop England's Northeast dot co dot UK is the history website, but they do both in the link that there are links to you know, across the two, from one to the other. So just quickly, is it called tangled worm? And you you were going to ask that, do you know something?

Honestly? I mean, obviously you've got the worm legends like the lately them up in Northumbler near Bambara, and the Lambton worm and then the Soccoburn worm on the T's near Dark, which has connections with Lewis Carroll's Jabbawockie poem, which is really interesting and I think it's partly to do with that. It just sort of came to me and I was just doodling it, doodled it. I doodled the logo which is like a tangled worm, like a like a little wiven and I just thought tangled worm just like that.

I think I do have a little description which it's like unraveling the mystery, and it's got a bit of paganism in it and a bit of piety as well, because those worm stories often mixed the paganism with the with the Christian symbolism as well. Not that into religion or anything like that. But I just thought it was fascinating the the interconnections there. Yea worms and ORMs and sea monsters and wyverns and that kind of thing.

It's just a bit of fun. I thought it was a fun fun name as well. No, it's good. I think you did bother me.

Sorry, but initially I set it up. I thought people to think this is a virus, you know, but it hasn't had any issues with that obviously, get worms, can't you. But yeah, yeah, it's great. I love what I love your products, but I especially love your your website as well in England's northeast.

I think you're done an amazing job with that, and it's such a such a rich content and information on there that I think more people should check out and know that. But I know you already get you get a lot of visitors anyway, don't you. Yeah, yeah, I mean, because I've been one of other things recently and I have some eye surgery and where that kind of thing, I haven't been doing as much content on it, but it usually does usually ranks pretty well in search engines. I think people know that you're familiar with that you do have to keep adding content to keep you keep I don't know whether it's still on page one, it's thereabouts.

I have a look at that, but it's it just be formally when I get visitors from all over the over the world, get a lot of inquiries from people in the United States asking about this and that, sometimes about family. It's not necessarily things I can I can help with, but I can pointing in the direction of you know where where to look and what just to look at the pages that feature the area where their ancestors are from as well. So that's quite nice. And I don't know whether it's tempting people to come across.

And I think there's all a lot of negativity on social media about about Britain at the moment, and you know what, getting people to make that to to buy a flight ticket and get themselves over here and explore the region and even know it's just the country, but preferably our own region is great, especially when they've got these connections and they're they're fascinated and we're friendly enough, aren't we to visit as So. Yeah, that's a great, great place to visit. But but maybe even again homegrown, local people get them to explore the reading a bit more, a bit more widely, try to try a different go and visit a different village, town or city that you that you've not been to before, because I think it will give you even more pride of where you're from if you if you just look a little bit further afield.

It's great. It's great what you're doing. And this video, obviously, this video and podcast, I'm going to turn this into a blog on on our website. It'll have a video on the podcast and it will be a short little blog summary, but you can you can maybe embed it into your website as well.

And it's absolutely awesome, right David, Yeah, yeah, let's do it right. Love talking to you and keep doing what you're doing. And thank you very much. I'm looking forward to I'm looking forward to reading this.

I'm trying not read it before me, Dad, because I don't want to, but I'll I'm sort of flicking through it a little bit and try reading a bitter but I'm. Reading that's my new book on York by the Way, which is out now as well. Get plugging for that been a pleasure. Absolutely loved it me too.

All Right, Okay, we'll leave it there. Thanks for David, take care, cheers and joy.